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What exactly can't the freedom of movement spell protect you from? There's been some debate about it in our group.
Will it protect you from any of the following (Y/N)?
- a stirge's attach ability
- an ooze's engulf ability
- a thrown net
- the entangle spell
- the hold person spell
- the web spell
- being tied up
- being manacled
- being buried under an avalanche
- penalties for squeezing
- a mud elemental's entrap ability
- movement penalties for being blind
- a giant spider's web ability
- an air elemental's whirlwind or a water elemental's vortex
- the movement penalty for climbing/swimming
- the movement penalty for difficult terrain
I thought I understood what it protected from, but after talking to others, it's more vague than I realized.
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- a stirge's attach ability
The Stirge makes no check to grapple, so it still works. However, any check the target makes to escape the Attachment automatically succeeds.
- an ooze's engulf ability
I did not see a general "engulf" ability, so I'm going by the Gelatinous Cube's. Similarly to the Stirge, no roll is made on behalf of the ooze and the Reflex save is not something called out in Freedom of Movement. The ooze can engulf someone under the effects of FoM. However, the Engulfed person is not prevented from moving due to the paralysis and can automatically succeed on the roll to escape the Pin. However, keep in mind that the Pinned condition would not prevent them from moving or attacking in anyway, so they could still move around and attack without bothering to break the pin.
- a thrown net
They can be entangled by the net, but would not have their movement or attacks impeded by the Entangled condition. Thus, they would suffer the -4 to Dex and be required to make Concentration checks, but they could still charge and run, their attacks would not suffer a -2, and their speed would not be halved. They could also automatically succeed on escaping the Net.
- the entangle spell
As above, they could be Entangled, but would not have their movement or attacks impeded. They'd also ignore the difficult terrain.
- the hold person spell
Freedom of Movement explicitly bypasses the Paralyzed condition, at least in regards to movement and attacks. So, yes, the spell could land, it just wouldn't do much.
- the web spell
They can be Grappled by the initial casting of the Web because it is a Reflex save, not a Combat Maneuver or Escape Artist roll. However, they would not be prevented from moving or attacking in anyway while grappled by such an effect and they could automatically succeed on escaping it. Further, they'd automatically succeed at avoiding being grappled by the Web after the initial casting because it is a CMB/Escape Artist check. And of course, they would ignore the Difficult Terrain, too.
- being tied up
You could move around and attack freely while tied up, and you could automatically succeed on escaping the ties. You would stay tied up until you actually spent the action to escape it, though. Freedom of Movement doesn't end conditions or anything like that, it just lets you move and attack despite them.
- being manacled
As being tied up, above.
- being buried under an avalanche
FoM would not stop you from being buried and damaged by an avalanche unless you could somehow Earthglide or Burrow or something. You could freely attack and move while buried, but you would not be able to actually go anywhere because you'd (most likely) lack the movement mode required to move through the burying material.
- penalties for squeezing
You would suffer a -4 to AC, but would not suffer the -4 to hit nor would your movement cost 2 squares each.
- a mud elemental's entrap ability
This is no different than any other way a character might get the Entangled condition. As I said, no attack penalties, no movement penalties, anything else stands.
- movement penalties for being blind
There are no movement penalties for being blind--you can move full speed all you like, you just need to make a check not to fall prone if you do so. FoM does not affect that.
- a giant spider's web ability
This is just Entanglement again, and is even called out as being similar to a Net.
- an air elemental's whirlwind or a water elemental's vortex
A Whirlwind or Vortex would not stop someone under FoM from moving, nor would it apply the -2 penalty to attacks. Everything else would still apply.
- the movement penalty for climbing/swimming
Your speed is not penalized while climbing or swimming. Instead, you make a check to move a certain distance based on your speed. FoM would do nothing to affect that.
- the movement penalty for difficult terrain
FoM would let you ignore the movement impairing effects of difficult terrain.
How about Reverse Gravity
How about Reverse Gravity
Probably not. I'd think you can still be subject to a Bull Rush attempt because freedom of movement doesn't say anything about effects that IMPOSE movement, only those that INHIBIT movement. That said, once you're floating or on the ceiling, it might be viable that you can return to the ground at will on your next turn because it's only reverse gravity that's preventing you from being on the ground.
The spell doesn't let you walk through walls or doors despite them impeding your movement though, so it's up to the DM if you're stuck on the ceiling or not.
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Let's start by using the PRD definition, not the PFSRD definition, because they're not the same, and PRD is authoritative.
Freedom of Movement
School abjuration; Level bard 4, cleric 4, druid 4, ranger 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a leather strip bound to the target), DF
Range personal or touch
Target you or creature touched
Duration 10 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. All combat maneuver checks made to grapple the target automatically fail. The subject automatically succeeds on any combat maneuver checks and Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.
The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, grant water breathing.
- a stirge's attach ability
The touch attack to attach is not a grapple check, so it's not excluded rightaway. The stirge is "effectively grappling its prey", but no mention that the prey gains the grappled condition (which would prevent the prey from moving because there's a mosquito on him). It's implied that the Stirge does have the grappled condition while attached. Does FoM remove it? I'd say no; you're not actually grappled.
- an ooze's engulf ability
The gelatinous cube is a bit of a weird thing. It just moved on you to engulf you; doesn't make a check to grapple, so that works. Then you gain the Pinned condition and paralytic slime. FoM would negate the paralysis from a failed save against the slime while FoM is in effect, but not necessarily cure you; if FoM ends before the slime, you can't move anymore. To remove the pinned condition you'd need to make a Grapple check, which FoM causes you to auto-succeed at (against DC 9!). It says that when you're no longer pinned, you're no longer trapped in its body, so FoM presumably causes you to be ejected from the cube if you spend the action to un-Pin yourself.
Other oozes use the Engulf universal monster ability, which works like the Cube except no paralytic slime.
- a thrown net
Thrown nets require a ranged touch attack to hit; if they succeed they entangle. FoM makes no mention of the entangled condition, although you might think that a blanket "enables to move normally" in FoM's opening sentence would protect you from it.
I'd rule that the net fails to entangle, just like a grapple check automatically fails.
- the entangle spell
FoM protects you "even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web."
The "such as" phrase means this list is not exhaustive. Entangle can certainly be compared to Web; terrain that latches onto you. I'm fairly sure you don't get the entangled condition.
However, Entangle also makes the area difficult terrain, and I'm not sure FoM makes you immune to that.
- the hold person spell
Hold Person falls under the "such as paralysis" list of things FoM protects against.
- the web spell
Specifically mentioned in the FoM description.
- being tied up
You can't tie up someone with FoM, because that would require you to grapple someone and succeed at a CMB check which I'd say counts as the forbidden grapple check.
According to the description,
Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect
So getting out of ropes you're tied up with is escaping a Pin. FoM works.
- being manacled
No explicit proof here unfortunately. PRD says that manacles "bind" someone, with no definition of what that means, or how it's done. Since you can slip free with Escape Artist, and they restrict your ability to move and fight freely, I'd say that FoM will let you auto-succeed at the check to slip free.
- being buried under an avalanche
The avalanche buries you if you don't succeed at a Reflex save. FoM makes no mention of saves auto-succeeding, and explicitly mentions other things auto-succeeding or failing, so I don't think you're safe.
Since FoM doesn't let you move through stone walls (that wouldn't be moving normally) you can't just move away.
Avalanches give you the "buried" condition, with no further explanation. I'd rule that that counts as Pinned; you can get your freedom to act back automatically, but you're still down there. FoM is Abjuration, not Teleportation.
I'd allow someone with FoM to dig himself out using the same rules for someone topside digging out buried fellows, but without actually removing the rubble; kind of like swimming to the top.
- penalties for squeezing
Really not sure here. Squeezing gives penalties to movement, attack and defence, and FoM says you can move and attack normally; doesn't mention defence. I'd say the extreme limit of squeezing continues to apply: you can't move through any passage your head can't fit through. The rest is uncertain.
Note that since FoM helps underwater fighting, there's some wiggle room here for the generous interpretation that FoM allows you to act normally while squeezing. Physical matter being in the way is mitigated by FoM.
- a mud elemental's entrap ability
I think this falls under the "magic, such as" category, that FoM protects against.
- movement penalties for being blind
You're not actually being stopped from moving fast, but you have this tendency to lose your balance because you can't see where you're going. I don't think FoM helps here; it doesn't protect from Trip either, as far as we know.
- a giant spider's web ability
Since FoM protects against the Web spell and against grappling, I'm pretty sure it protects here as well.
- an air elemental's whirlwind or a water elemental's vortex
It can definitely do you damage, because that's debris or air flying in your face. Whether it can trap you is another matter. Since "magic such as ... fog cloud" doesn't trap you, I don't think this will; and FoM also helps you out underwater. On the other hand, you're not immune to being moved, just to being restricted.
I'd compromise that the whirlwind can move you, but on your turn, you're free again.
- the movement penalty for climbing/swimming
Moving underwater is mentioned in FoM, so I think you can walk across the ocean's bottom at normal speed. I think the relative slowness of swimming and climbing are actually considered the normal situation, which FoM aims to restore.
- the movement penalty for difficult terrain
I don't think so. That's so significant that it would deserve explicit mention.
On the whole, the spell is quite vague and open to interpretation, that's for sure.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4
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As a most-of-the-time GM, I favor a super-strict reading of this spell. It is very easy to call this spell "overpowered" if you make lenient rulings with it. To RD's list of situations and mplindustries' insights, I'll offer my opinions to the mix. I also realize that this thread is a few years old, but FoM is always a bit of a puzzle.
stirge's attach: From PFSRD - an attached stirge is considered grappled. It never makes a combat maneuver check to enter this condition, so can not fail at a check it doesn't make. Its target is not considered grappled. FoM allows auto-escape from a grapple or pin but since the target has neither of those conditions, FoM does not help.
ooze's engulf: From PFSRD - this is another case where the monster can auto-succeed without a combat maneuver check. If it does not need to make a check, it can't fail at that check. Therefore the target gains the pinned condition that it can automatically escape from on its turn.
Since it was brought up above, I'll throw in a controversial one:
Gelatinous Cube's Paralysis: From PFSRD - Its paralysis is an EX ability. Freedom of movement specifically provides protection against magic that impedes movement, but does not explicitly extend to all effects that do so. This is a nonmagical effect. Since FoM specifically calls out magical effects, I would suggest that it does not protect you against paralysis brought on through nonmagical means. YMMV.
thrown net: From PFSRD - inflicts the entangled condition, which is not a condition FoM allows you to auto-escape from. Although a net can root its target to one spot and reduce movement, again it is not a magical source. I would suggest that FoM is of no help here.
Entangle Spell: From PFSRD - This spell has 2 movement-inhibiting effects. The Entangled condition halves movement, and difficult terrain treats each square as 2 for purposes of movement. FoM prevents BOTH of these movement impediments because their source is a magical effect. This does not prevent the entangled condition on a failed save, or its associated attack penalties.
Web Spell: From PFSRD - Web inflicts the grappled status on a failed save, requiring no combat maneuver check to do so. No roll, no auto-failure. However, FoM allows such a target to automatically escape the grappled condition on their turn. Web additionally counts as difficult terrain, which (as a magical effect) a FoM-warded person can ignore.
Hold Person: From PFSRD - inflicts magical paralysis which is specifically overcome by FoM. I think we're in clear rules-territory here.
Tied Up: From PFSRD - It's actually pretty hard to even get to this stage against a FoM target, because that target must already be pinned, restrained, or helpless. I'd argue that since this requires a grapple combat maneuver to succeed against the target, that maneuver roll always fails and thus a FoM target cannot be tied up. HOWEVER...
Being Manacled (or Fettered): From PFSRD - Manacles inflict no particular status on the wearer. Fetters inflict the entangled condition, but much like a net this is probably a nonmagical effect. There is no check required to attach these, so there's nothing to fail. And FoM makes no provision for escaping from anything other than a grapple or pin.
buried under an avalanche: Object-oriented game design for the win. How much book flipping is needed to run one of these? Anyway, from what I can tell, an avalanche victim is "buried" which appears to be its own thing and not related to either grappled or pinned as far as FoM is able to protect from. If this actually inflicts the pinned status on its target, then the victim would auto-escape the pin but otherwise not be able to move for the same reason you can't move in a 5ft room without doors. Such a victim could theoretically take actions to dig themselves out - but again this assumes that there's a "pinned" condition somewhere in here to escape from, which I haven't verified yet.
Squeezing: You're not grappled, pinned, or affected by a magical impediment to movement. You're not underwater. So FoM has no provision to help you here.
mud elemental's entrap: From PFSRD - This is an Ex ability, so non-magical. It inflicts the entangled and helpless conditions, neither of which FoM helps you with. There is no combat maneuver check for the creature to fail. It's possible that for this ability, "pinned" is a better thematic condition to inflict than "helpless," but as written you are out of luck if you want FoM to save your bacon.
Movement penalties for being blind: From PFSRD - This doesn't inflict a movement impediment. It inflicts a possible additional condition (prone) for full movement. You could certainly argue that falling prone is an "impediment" but I would rule that FoM has no effect on indirect effects such as these.
a giant spider's web ability From PFSRD - Works like a net, inflicting the entangled status. Is nonmagical. We're covered.
whirlwind or vortex From PFSRD - We're finally into Su territory. If we can agree that these abilities are "magic" (they are nullified by an anti-magic field, after all) then we should assume that FoM affects them. FoM allows a user to "Move Normally." despite impediments. Unless you have a readied action or an immediate action that allows movement, movement happens on your turn. So on the monster's turn, it scoops you up using Whirlwind/Vortex. On your turn, you can "move normally" -- whatever that means for you. If you can't fly, that probably means you auto-escape and drop like a rock.
If you have movement that can take place outside your turn, then you can probably trigger that movement immediately when drawn into the whirlwind, allowing you to get out of its path/reach.
Climbing/Difficult Terrain: Nonmagical impediment, does not impose a condition that FoM cares about. FoM does not help you here.
Swimming: FoM specifically calls out swimming as something it assists with. It allows you to move and attack normally underwater. If "normal movement" for you is flying, you fly at that speed. If "normal movement" is walking, then you walk along the sea/river/lake floor with no movement penalties. The spell does not grant a swim speed or a bonus to swim checks, buoyancy, or the ability to breathe water. If you happen to attack stuff along the way, FoM helps you out.
...and that's how I choose to rule FoM - with the spell doing exactly what it spells out, no more or less. I've found that extrapolation of this spell's effects does more harm than good.
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Some notes on the above:-
* 'normal' movement for swimming/climbing are the rates for swimming/climbing. These are not a penalty to be negated; they are the 'normal' movement
* anything that still allows you to move but slows you down, like difficult terrain, squeezing, etc. is negated by the spell, since these things prevent you from moving 'normally', in this case moving your speed. If some terrain feature simply prevents movement because it's impassable (like a wall or closed door) then this spell doesn't help. However, if you were enclosed in a closet 2.5-feet square, then you could attack normally (without penalty), reach into your backpack, draw weapons, anything you could normally do while standing in place
* one of the biggest misconceptions about this spell I've seen over the years it that it's limited to negating magical restrictions. Nonsense!
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement...
It's not limited to magic! It helps you, and it's so effective that it helps you even against magic!
It is a 4th level spell, after all!
I agree with Malachi. The wording of the spell includes magic effects, but is not limited to them.
Bringing this thread to the fore again in the hopes we can get it FAQ'd.
Bringing this thread to the fore again in the hopes we can get it FAQ'd.
Good idea, I have hit FAQ on both threads.
Since it was brought up in the previous thread, you might as well add armor and encumbrance penalties to movement.
Previous thread: Net-vs-Freedom-of-Movement
Also Dirty Trick's Entangling.
I think the big sticking point is non-magical impediment. Does FoM do anything for this?
Being caught by a net has no interaction with spell or grapple rules. Only with the Escape Artist check. To land the net requires an attack roll, not a combat manuver. FoM does not prevent the net from entangling. You can use Escape Artist to get out of a net.
FoM gets an auto-success on that check.A dirty trick can entangle. There is no physical thing actually impeding movement. There is no magic impeding movement. This is not a grapple, nor is it underwater. How then is this form of entanglement prevented by FoM?
/cevah
A dirty trick can entangle. There is no physical thing actually impeding movement.
There is. Dirty trick describes how it works: You tie someone's shoe laces together, pull their pants down, wrap something around their legs at at walker style etc. It doesn't matter what you're doing but you are physically impeding their movement somehow. (My fox form fighter if fond of standing between peoples legs like an annoying cat)
I stand corrected. Their own equipment entangles them.
/cevah
Any consensus there?
I kinda need to know if a creature with constant "freedom of movement" can be held in manacles (and subsequently rescued by pcs)
Any consensus there?
I kinda need to know if a creature with constant "freedom of movement" can be held in manacles (and subsequently rescued by pcs)
Some things will be a consensus, but there is not one for every case.
The manacles do not have a consensus. I have seen it go both ways.
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I have had a ton of monsters thwarted bc they are based on grab then all kinds of horrors. last night it was 15 advanced remorhazes trying to swallow whole people, which dones insane damage as their bellies are basically pure fire.
but they cant grab, so they cant swallow whole, so they are just a wimpy bite attack (one) per round. it was a joke.
it just seems legal that if a colossal creature shows up and tries to swallow a gnome, it auto fails.
i get the spell was meant to allow characters to move, esp underwater. remove hindrances. i have a hard time believing the spirit of the rules was to make the character immune to a gigantic list of special attacks.
this thread seems to be in a state of limbo, but ill post anyways. anyone have a way for their to be some way for stuff like swallow whole to work?
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i completely disagree that it helps with difficult terrain. It says move normally, and paying double cost for difficult terrain are the normal movement rules.
If it did ignore any hindrances to movement, then the whole second section mentioning water is redundant. the fact they mention water means its an additional effect.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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So, I've often wondered this and lo-and-behold a discussion...
Your character is on a small boat at the center of a lake. The lake is 500 ft deep. He or she casts FoM on themselves and jumps into the lake.
Do they immediately fall to the bottom of the lake and take falling damage?
Buoyancy and viscosity are two different things. Just because you ignore how viscous the water is for swinging weapons and such doesn't mean you aren't displacing fluid and experiencing a buoyant force. If anything, you'd still float/sink slowly but it should be much harder to swim around, as you wouldn't really push against the liquid very effectively.
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How about Reverse GravityProbably not. That said, once you're floating or on the ceiling, it might be viable that you can return to the ground at will on your next turn because it's only reverse gravity that's preventing you from being on the ground.
I have to disagree, that would be like not being in the area of a reverse gravity and saying it's ONLY Gravity that's preventing you from being on the ceiling so Freedom of Movement should let you walk up to the ceiling.
Reverse gravity does not Impede your movement, it simply changes the direction from which gravity is most strongly pulling things. You are still free to move in any direction, even directly against it (jump).
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You know, I had never looked at the spell very closely before, but damn the "moving underwater as normal" bit is cool. I love the idea of someone sprinting along the bottom of a lake and slashing about with a sword as easily as above the waves.
Truth. Had a party fall into the bottom of a well, and my cleric had a necklace of adaptation that allowed him to cast freedom of movement and begin collecting everyone and throwing them out of the water.
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I have had a ton of monsters thwarted bc they are based on grab then all kinds of horrors. last night it was 15 advanced remorhazes trying to swallow whole people, which dones insane damage as their bellies are basically pure fire.
but they cant grab, so they cant swallow whole, so they are just a wimpy bite attack (one) per round. it was a joke.
it just seems legal that if a colossal creature shows up and tries to swallow a gnome, it auto fails.
i get the spell was meant to allow characters to move, esp underwater. remove hindrances. i have a hard time believing the spirit of the rules was to make the character immune to a gigantic list of special attacks.
this thread seems to be in a state of limbo, but ill post anyways. anyone have a way for their to be some way for stuff like swallow whole to work?
I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I feel the real issue was lack of variety with the threat. If you have an entire encounter based on 15 of the same creature where 1 effect negates the danger of every single creature, then you are asking to be very easily thwarted if the party is capable of taking advantage of that weakness.
I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I feel the real issue was lack of variety with the threat. If you have an entire encounter based on 15 of the same creature where 1 effect negates the danger of every single creature, then you are asking to be very easily thwarted if the party is capable of taking advantage of that weakness.I have had a ton of monsters thwarted bc they are based on grab then all kinds of horrors. last night it was 15 advanced remorhazes trying to swallow whole people, which dones insane damage as their bellies are basically pure fire.
but they cant grab, so they cant swallow whole, so they are just a wimpy bite attack (one) per round. it was a joke.
it just seems legal that if a colossal creature shows up and tries to swallow a gnome, it auto fails.
i get the spell was meant to allow characters to move, esp underwater. remove hindrances. i have a hard time believing the spirit of the rules was to make the character immune to a gigantic list of special attacks.
this thread seems to be in a state of limbo, but ill post anyways. anyone have a way for their to be some way for stuff like swallow whole to work?
Sometimes the party has the right tool for the job and they trivialize an encounter. It is all part of the game.
What you probably want then is monsters with engulf, also check out some of the new engulf abilities from the new horror book.
Doesn't freedom of movement make you immune to the pinned condition Meaning engulf is also thwarted?
All combat maneuver checks made to grapple the target automatically fail. The subject automatically succeeds on any combat maneuver checks and Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.
Some engulf abilities for monster are written differently but the typical engulf doesn't require a cmb check. So while FoM character auto succeeds to escape the pin and grapple those still take actions and they will also have to cut themselves out and take whatever damage and secondary effects are listed.