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I have pondered this thread for a while and I have determined that the real issue is off-topic and perhaps needs it's own thread. But seeing as how, IMO, the take 10 issue seems to have reached its end...
Taking 10 or even 20 is not the issue. It is the magnitude of the modifier that seems to be the problem. As one poster stated, his Perception modifier was +37. This reduces all searching to an auto-success, even stealth. I have not seen any NPC's with a Stealth score high enough to conceal vs. that, even without a take 10. Scores that high can even neutralize invisibility (+20).
A well-built party could have a number of skills that auto-succeed with take 10 attempts, therefore, there is little/no risk in the scenario. The encounter outcomes become predetermined. Might as well just sign the chronicles and hand them out.
Painlord had a good example of what I am talking about HERE
Spoiler:Sometimes I think the best advice I can give to new players sometimes is: GET FOUND!
Get Found! Story:
(Adapted from my ale-addled mind.)
The story comes from Robert Fulghum (of All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarden).
Robert was watching children in his neighborhood play a game of hide and seek. Recalling his youth, Robert remembers a kid who was *really* good at hiding, so good, no one could find him. The kid hid so well that eventually the rest of kids gave up trying to find him.
Seeing the kids playing outside, Robert saw one kid hiding in a great spot, no one would find him. In fact, it looked like the other kids were about to give up trying to find him. (yeah yeah yeah...maybe this was before the time of "olly olly oxen free free free" rules were put into the official Hide&Seek players guide v1.2)
Recalling his experience from his youth, Robert yelled to the kid to "Get Found!"
The point of PFS *isn't* about hiding so no one can ever find you or having an AC so high that no one can hit you or doing 100 DPR or casting a persistent heightened Stone to Flesh with a DC of 7 gazillion...
...it's about interactions in a social environment playing a common pastime.
In fact, PFS is more like a game of Sardines than Hide & Seek. I'd rather be hiding, laughing, giggling, and trying to keep quiet with a bunch of friends than hiding alone.
If you're not building your character to both interact, help, and rely on other players, you may be playing wrong.
Get Found, you!
-Pain
I really liked this story, so I thought I’d give it its own thread so it wouldn’t get lost amongst the T-10 argument.
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The +X issue inherent to the d20 system hasn't exactly gone away in Pathfinder RPG. I remember bringing this up way back in the Beta discussions.
-Matt
I played a scenario yesterday with my cleric who has an high bonus to Diplomacy for my level due to traits and gear. The scenario...
In the end, the other players were happy my character was there. But honestly all I could think about was this post (which I had read before the game). I kinda wish I'd 'gotten Found'. It would have made the scenario much more interesting. :\
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I won't speak for Ferral, but the point I 'learned' is that being able to autosucceed is boring. Like playing Doom on Godmode. Sure it's fun at first, but it's boring.
Pathfinder is a team exercise. If you can do everything (twinked out bard) or one thing so well that the rest of the group becomes redundant in that field (barbarian maxed out) it's boring for you and your group.
We want to minimize failure as much as possible in life, but in a game there's a thrill when that die comes up a 20, and the thrill of tension when it comes up a 1.
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Wow. Thanks Andrew Christian.
Yep, this game should be like Sardines rather than Hide & Seek.
This is a casual social interactive game...playing to play with others is playing to 'win'.
-Pain
EDIT: p.s. Matthew Morris has it right.
Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Pullman
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I have an inquisitor that is level 5 now. He has an intimidation of 24, in combat against nearly all but undead immunity creatures I cast the spell Blistering invective. It is like Dazzling display only I don't have to burn a feat for it. Most everything becomes intimidated for 2-5 rounds depending on how well I roll.
Out of combat situations are even more interesting as I can intimidate people into giving me the information I want without much trouble. I nearly always 'auto succeed.' The GM came up with an interesting way to get around the NPCs always giving me information. This last week I intimidated someone and instead of giving me information he ran away in abject fear on my roll of like 38. We just continued on with the mission and had a grand time, eventually we found him again and the intimidation had worn off and he didn't like me. I'm a pirate so it didn't trouble me overly much.
My point is that just because a skill is ridiculously high doesn't mean that the GM can't come up with a way around it. In the case of the high diplomacy checks with Nickademus the GM could have made the person you were diplo checking against say he had heard enough out of you and wanted to hear from your compatriots. That would have added a layer of challenge.
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EDIT: p.s. Matthew Morris has it right.Let's just say that, from your point of view, he is correct. From other points of view, not so much.
No, I think Painlord would be the best authority on whether Matthew Morris understands what Painlord was trying to say. You would be hard-pressed to get me to believe that someone else's point of view has more weight to determine Painlord's meaning than Painlord's.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I'd like to opine that "Get Found" is useful advice in it's original context because a kid who's really good at hiding is taking himself out of the game of Hide-and-Seek.
"Get found" isn't the same thing as "Don't be outstanding" or "Try to be mediocre in everything." Nobody was yelling "Get found" to Michael Jordan. (Well, okay. Lakers fans might have.) That's because his excellence wasn't removing him from the game.
If your paladin PC is good enough at her strengths to pull her weight, win her renown, and make her a valuable team-mate, this advice doesn't apply to her. If she is outshining everybody else all the time, then she's taking herself out of the game.
And in PFS, that can happen. People can get stratospheric DCs on their dominate spells. People can get ridiculously high trip CMBs. And Painlord and Bob, and others, are suggesting that, as a Gentleman's Agreement, we limit ourselves to simply being outstanding, rather than outside.
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The first rule of character creation, for me, is this:
"How does this character make the game more fun for everyone else at the table?"
followed closely by,
"How do I play this character to make the game more fun for the GM, and coax other players into roleplaying as well?"
I think you are reading more into Painlord's statement that is there. If you wish to offer an opinion on the thread topic, that is one thing. But Painlord was simply stating to Feral that Matthew properly interpreted his quote from from Andrew's original post since there was a bit of confusion at that point in the thread.
I have not been, nor will I be, debating your opinion on this.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Let me ask a follow-up question.
This Sunday, I found my character to be (a) two levels above the rest of the party, and (b) extremely well suited for the mysterious-tomb-exploration style of adventure, while my colleagues were not. My PC was the only one who had trapfinding and disabling, the only one with any spellcasting ability, the only one who'd brought useful consumable magic items, and the one with most of the relevant skills.
How do I balance (a) making it fun for everybody, and (b) not getting everyone killed by holding back?
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That’s actually a good question Chris. I don’t recall all the players you were playing with, but I’m wagering that one of them was a Half-Orc Barbarian (+ at least 3 other classes) Sunder Expert and another was a Dwarf Fighter with a huge AC. Neither of which are particularly suited for that style of scenario until you get into combat.
I know both players, and I’m sure they were both happy to have some trapfinding help around.
Sometimes some characters are just going to shine (and potentially majorly outshine the party.) I wouldn’t worry overly much about that. Just those few moments when another player might have a chance to shine, let them shine.
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Venture-Captain, Arizona—Tucson
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Once in a while, you’ll run into a scenario where one PC is just destined to lead the others. It might be a courtly intrigue scenario (“Time to step up. Mr. Party Face…”), a grueling mass battle scenario (“Paging Ms. Blaster Sorceress…”), or a mystery (“Your job, Mssr. Skill Monkey”), but such situations aren’t uncommon.
There’s nothing wrong with that, as long as it doesn’t happen over and over. If a character outshines the rest every time, that’s a problem.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Yes, he played at the high level table with Ryan.This Sunday...I don’t recall all the players you were playing with...Wait, what? Was Chris Mortika at FFG here in Minnesota this past Sunday?
And I missed him? Laaaaaame. Should've told my wife to stay home so I could play Cledwyn and meet Chris. ;)
I won't speak for Ferral, but the point I 'learned' is that being able to autosucceed is boring. Like playing Doom on Godmode. Sure it's fun at first, but it's boring.
Say it with me one more time, folks:
Different people enjoy the game in different ways.
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Different people enjoy the game in different ways
I agree to a point. Except that this is an organized play community. If your method of enjoyment negatively impacts that of other players, then you may be playing "wrong." (read: non-compatible)
Some styles of play are better suited for home-game environments where the GM (and players) are more free to react accordingly and the campaign can be adjusted to accommodate.
I removed a post and a few replies to it. Be nice.
Different people enjoy the game in different waysI agree to a point. Except that this is an organized play community. If your method of enjoyment negatively impacts that of other players, then you may be playing "wrong." (read: non-compatible)
Nevertheless:
Some people like "hard mode". Some people like "easy mode". You can't please everyone, but nobody's preference is "wrong".
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Some people like "hard mode". Some people like "easy mode". You can't please everyone, but nobody's preference is "wrong".
This is where someone (not you, hogarth) either sees the "Get Found" story for what it is or they don't. Whether they understand it's application to PFS *and* to life or they don't.
Let's be clear: "Get Found" applies to both real life and PFS. You want to be a good player in PFS? Go beyond DPR and high skills checks. Find a way to include others in the game. And then apply that same thing to real life.
Some people miss the point of the story...but those people have probably been told the same thing over and over again, but yet again miss what it means.
In the "Get Found" story, the following (among many other things) happens:
1) The boy is very very good at hiding and is happy hiding. He's really good at that part of the game.
2) As a result of being so good at the game, he misses out on the metagame, aka the big freakin' picture: he's failing at the point of the game: he's failing to connect and enjoy his and shared experience with others.
Here's what I'm going to say:
1) Everybody has a right to play PFS they way that pleases them (as long as it isn't against the rules, isn't abusive, yadayadayada).
2) The best players in the PFS game (like in real life) aren't the ones who have high DPR or a stealth of 60 or can solo an encounter: not that it's wrong to specialize, but that its better to be a social inclusive player than not to be.
3) The best players in PFS are the ones that make others laugh, get others involved in the game, and create options for others to play off of.
4) Someone thinks it's okay to be the kid that hides that no one can find them? And it's okay because that makes them happy? Fine...but they're losing the metagame. They're missing the big picture. And they'll have a hard time ever being considered a good PFS player (metagame view).
Bottom line: I accept everyone's right to play the game badly, but I will encourage them to play at a higher level. (Mostly because I want to play at a higher level and need good players to teach me, push me, and share with.)
You can be the guy that has the high XYZ who plays well and socially with others, gets others involved, and enjoys the social contract of this game.
The game isn't about the in-game reward (XP/GP), but about the journey that you are on with the people you are with.
Get Found, you!
-Pain
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I won't speak for Ferral, but the point I 'learned' is that being able to autosucceed is boring. Like playing Doom on Godmode. Sure it's fun at first, but it's boring.
Pathfinder is a team exercise. If you can do everything (twinked out bard) or one thing so well that the rest of the group becomes redundant in that field (barbarian maxed out) it's boring for you and your group.
We want to minimize failure as much as possible in life, but in a game there's a thrill when that die comes up a 20, and the thrill of tension when it comes up a 1.
This is why I am so fond of Call of Cthuhlu....something fun about being the bottom of the food chain.
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One of the table rules I use when running PF is this:
1) When you FAIL at something, describe how you failed. Glory in it. Make it fun to recount.
2) When someone else fails at something and does step 1, nominate them for a benny. The GM cannot nominate, but can second a nomination. Nominations come from entertaining your fellow players.
3) If the nomination is seconded, you get a benny. A benny is good for a one-time-use retroactive +2 bonus on any one d20 roll. If you have two bennies stored up, you can burn both of them to re-roll the d20.
4) All bennies expire at the end of the current session.
5) You may ALWAYS narrate a failure.
I'd use it in PFS mods, but I'm afraid that someone I ran it for would expect it from other GMs...and this is one place where modding the rules kind of causes problems in organized play.
It also encourages more description and "showboating for the audience", which makes scenarios run about 5% longer in terms of minutes.
This is where someone (not you, hogarth) either sees the "Get Found" story for what it is or they don't. Whether they understand it's application to PFS *and* to life or they don't.
Similarly, when you read my comments, either you see them for what they are or you don't. Whether you understand it's application to PFS and to life or you don't.
In the "Get Found" story, the following (among many other things) happens:
1) The boy is very very good at hiding and is happy hiding. He's really good at that part of the game.
2) As a result of being so good at the game, he misses out on the metagame, aka the big freakin' picture: he's failing at the point of the game: he's failing to connect and enjoy his and shared experience with others.
Your story says nothing at all whether that kid is having fun never being found or not. If he's having fun not being found, then yelling "Get found!" at him is not helping.
But, as you said, either you see my remarks for what they are or you don't.
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I can recall a study done on "who gets called on to answer questions in class". A grade school class (3rd graders I think) were filmed for something like a week, and then the film was review by a bunch of grad students (boy I am glad I was never a R.A.). One little girl in the class was noticed as often raising her hand, but never getting called on. This was pointed out to the teacher, who stated that she had never really noticed this before, but she would correct it. When the follow up was done later, the teacher reported that the little girl parent had come in asking what her child had done. It appears that in being sure to call on the child, the little girl felt she was being singled out by the teacher and had become very upset and withdrawn. It appears she had been raising her hand to join in with her friends, but had been able to develop the ability NOT TO BE NOTICED. Raising her hand when the teacher glanced to the other part of the room, or as someone else was being called on, etc.
Let's not assume that the shy guy in the back of the party wants to be found. My wife is one of those. She enjoys the game, playing in the group. Sometimes she'll step up and shine, and she is great when she does - one of her lines (she spends hours prepping these by herself) is "my character is much more diplomatic than I am. She would like the XXX to do YYY, but I don't know how to say that as well as she could." I have seen her sing a ballad in front of a table of strangers - because she was having fun and didn't feel "found". If you single her out, if you "find her" and shove her in front of everyone and ask her to "in character" say exactly what her character would say - she will fall apart and never play at your table again. This has happened. At one CON, back in LG days, we were being mustered to a table with a judge who had "Found" her. We said we'd sit this one out and withdrew from the muster - only to be chased from the room by the organizer who would not take "no" for an answer. Result - my wife in tears having...
I’m pretty sure this isn’t what the story is talking about.
Wallflowers don’t typically create the uber-specialists and don’t “need” to be found as per the context of the story.
And to answer Hogarth: Yes, everyone has a right to do and play however they want, as long as their fun doesn’t start to impinge on someone else’s fun. We aren’t trying tell people how to play, or that they can’t possibly be having fun if they don’t do it our way. Even though it may seem like that a little. What we are trying to do, is communicate how “not getting found” can impinge on other people’s fun, and drive those people to no longer want to associate with the person “not getting found”. And if being the outsider (or if you have a group who all enjoy doing this together) is fun for you, then that’s what this hobby is all about, having fun, right?
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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We aren’t trying tell people how to play
Bottom line: I accept everyone's right to play the game badly
The only way I can think of to reconcile these two statements is that you two aren't as much on the same page as you think you are. :P
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We aren’t trying tell people how to playBottom line: I accept everyone's right to play the game badlyThe only way I can think of to reconcile these two statements is that you two aren't as much on the same page as you think you are. :P
They reconcile perfectly.
We both recognize that different people come to play these games for different reasons, and for possibly different reasons find different ways to play more enjoyable than others. We all have opinions on what the right way, or a good way (or conversely bad way) to play is.
The fact that our opinion may say that someone else is playing badly, doesn’t mean that we want to tell them how to play. We respect their right to play the way in which they want to play, as long as that way doesn’t impinge on my right to have fun in the way I find fun. This may cause the two sides to not want to sit at the same table, however.
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They reconcile perfectly.
We both recognize that different people come to play these games for different reasons, and for possibly different reasons find different ways to play more enjoyable than others. We all have opinions on what the right way, or a good way (or conversely bad way) to play is.
+1.
And so we reconcile. :)
-Pain
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Wait, so telling someone they're doing it wrong is different from telling them how to do it?
...Does that mean that the next time I want to point out that a GM's methods aren't in accordance with the Guide, I can say he's GMing "badly" and it'll be okay because that's not the same as telling him how to GM? ;)
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Are you saying that, because my PC is maxed out on my Disable Device, or that my Face Character can get out team past the guards that I need to "be found"? I do not understand this view point.
I think we are losing context on what "getting found" means. Whenever I read some "self-help" type story or advice, I always first start to look at, "how does that apply to me", then I tend to get defensive "wait, I don't do that," or "I'm not that bad," or "is that really all that big a deal?"
Lets not look at how we fit the negative stereotype, but rather look at our experiences as a whole.
Ask yourself:
1) Did I have fun?
2) Did others around me seem to have fun?
If so, don't stress the small stuff.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Yep, this game should be like Sardines rather than Hide & Seek.
Now I picture playing PFS in a tiny 5x5 room with a GM and 5 players rubbing elbows around a tiny coffee table. It might be fun once if everyone has showered but I can't see doing it that way every week ;)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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hay, wait, if I play sardines can I pick the group? I got a picture of Jennie P. at Brewfest, and I want to play sardines with her in the group...
No, it's played at the end of a 4 day con and we're putting you in with the group of gamers who spent 22 hours a day at the tables and slept under a table for two hours a day...
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And this is why I didn't want to use the word "wrong" but with the "read" comment, I thought it would work...*sigh*
That being said, we have to look at this from a perspective of organized play. All players have a responsibility to approach the game with the understanding that they have a roll to play in the enjoyment of those at your table. If you want to remain quiet, etc. that is fine. It does not impair the experience of the other players at the table.
If you, however, have a dominant character that can do everything better than the others at the table or can do something so well, that there is no way for the GM to overcome it, thematically, you are "hiding."
If the game session becomes all about your character, winning all the combats, succeeding on all the skill checks, etc. then it is not fun for other players.
Optimization can be fun. No one is saying don't make a competent character. Just be mindful that the mechanics are not perfect. There are areas that lend themselves to extreme builds that can neutralize all the challenge and the game becomes less like a game and more like reading a book about a character with pre-determined outcomes. You loose the feeling of being involved in and a part of the campaign.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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People enjoy it when their character is able to contribute to the fray. If you play the game in a way that completely marginalizes other players then you are doing it wrong/ bad.
If that telling other people how to play?
*shrug* I don't much care. Selfish players can play at someone else's table, I'm a bit tired of the me-first attitude.
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1) Did I have fun?
2) Did others around me seem to have fun?
Of course, as far as I can tell, the "Get Found" piece ignores both these questions.
As well as the question of, "Was the hider so good that he couldn't be found, or was the finder so bad that he couldn't find the hider?"
Whose "fault" was it? If, indeed, there is any fault to be found.
And, above all, were both of the kids having fun?
We both recognize that different people come to play these games for different reasons, and for possibly different reasons find different ways to play more enjoyable than others. We all have opinions on what the right way, or a good way (or conversely bad way) to play is
So, from reading this quote, it appears that any way except your way is a bad way?
Excuse me while I disagree.
Don't cheat. Don't be a jerk. What more needs to be said?