What's there to deal with? your fighter types are losing 1 BAB, postponing extra attacks, lowering their hit chance, etc. To make up for this, they get mutagen.
They get a +2 NA and +4 to 1 stat for 10 mins per alchemist level. so uh, 10 mins?
If they want it a second time, they have to spend another hour brewing a mutagen, which isnt realistically doable all day for every encounter.
Honestly, it really doesnt seem like a great tradeoff to me.
What's there to deal with? your fighter types are losing 1 BAB, postponing extra attacks, lowering their hit chance, etc. To make up for this, they get mutagen.
They get a +2 NA and +4 to 1 stat for 10 mins per alchemist level. so uh, 10 mins?
If they want it a second time, they have to spend another hour brewing a mutagen, which isnt realistically doable all day for every encounter.
Honestly, it really doesnt seem like a great tradeoff to me.
Agreed. If they want to take the hit let them. Its negatives balance the benefits imo. It really shouldnt be a big issue. RP wise they have an alchemist in the group which impressed them and decided to learn a bit of what he can do. Thats ok. Run with it. Heck let start a alchemist school or something. Write it into the story.
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Could be worse. They could all decide to go Vivisectionist. Fighters and Barbarian getting and Strength bump, an natural armor bump AND Sneak attack would cause all kinds of flank up nasty combos. Throw in Teamwork feats that could add either another 1d6 sneak attack or +4 when flanking and you'd essentially have a nigh unstoppable trio.
10 mins is 60 Rounds. Thats easily enough for all tough encounters there are...
Of course one would go Vivisectionist, too. Because 1d6 sneak is better than not having 1d6 sneak...
If you dip 2 levels into the Alchemist (which is better because you still gain your BAB) you can take the extra mutagen discovery and preserve some mutagens for later use...
Or do you want an Tentacle that gives the Barbarian another attack with GRAB!?
Or the Rogue with the 3rd Arm for more melee madness?
Infinite possibilities ;)
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Second, it doesn't seem to say in the alchemist class description whether using a mutagen provokes attacks of opportunity. I'm sure a little searching whether or not it does, but my guess is that it does, since it's basically a potion.
Drinking a mutagen does not provoke attacks of opportunity as it is a Supernatural Ability (SU). Bombs which are also SU specifically do generate AoO.
Attacks of opportunity or readied actions can be used to attack the mutagen as well, breaking it so it can't be drunk. If they're using the Dexterity boosting mutagen, they're taking a Wisdom hit, so Will-targeted spells or SLAs are good. Finally, they need an hour to make a new mutagen after using one. In a dungeon, they might not have that much uninterrupted time - unless they retreat from the dungeon entirely between every battle.
Just to make sure I understand, you slam the PCs for wasting a round drinking their mutagen, so you are going to have your NPCs waste a round by readying an action to stop them?
Also, something you may have missed, is that if the party doesn't all drink mutagens right at the start, that they can share their mutagen with their fellow alchemists... which could be quite nasty if the 'full' alchemist trades their short duration one for his grand and persistant mutagen that lasts like 14 hours.
Personally I like the versatility of the alchemist. In effect your party now has several folks who can back up heal with a wand of cure light wounds after a battle or prep for a battle by self buffing with a Wand of Shield.
Edit'd for spelling
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10 mins is 60 Rounds. Thats easily enough for all tough encounters there are...
Nope. That's enough for 10 consecutives minutes during which you send enemies to them. Enemies don't think this way.
They all spend a round to drink mutagen and grow ugly-bulky ? Enemies go "OMGWTF" and run out of their reach, relying on scouts or perception to see how your players are lasting. As soon as the mutagen stops, they come back in position and attack with a better focus on flanking.Enemies aren't dumb and have the ability to play hit-and-run or wait for buffs to end, use this ability.
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Good Point about the Int. If they can't manage a 11 Int, giving them 1st level extracts, then there is no way they are going to manage to use many of the other class features. Got to be at least smart enough to make a 1 level extract to hope to consistantly come up with that strength mutagen or bombs. Not to mention that you need to be able to prepare extracts in order to make potions. Finally, even if they went Vivisectionist route, if they aren't smart enough to make an extract then they likely failed to read those anatomy books that would allow them to know where to hit the target. They are rogues, relying on stealth, they are scientists relying on knowledge.
Have them roleplay learning how to be an alchemist from the Alchemist :)
10 mins is 60 Rounds. Thats easily enough for all tough encounters there are...Nope. That's enough for 10 consecutives minutes during which you send enemies to them. Enemies don't think this way.
They all spend a round to drink mutagen and grow ugly-bulky ? Enemies go "OMGWTF" and run out of their reach, relying on scouts or perception to see how your players are lasting. As soon as the mutagen stops, they come back in position and attack with a better focus on flanking.Enemies aren't dumb and have the ability to play hit-and-run or wait for buffs to end, use this ability.
I don't know how many of your NPCs have a higher land speed than 50ft (10ft from being Barbarian and 10ft from Boots of Striding and Springing). So them running away would mean that they are a lot faster than that. And it means that the Wizard doesn't just cast a Black Tentacles on them or cast a Wall of whatever around them.
Imagine a diviner wizard walling them in (he WILL win the init) and the enemy doesn't even know that they are drinking their potions.Or he casts Black Tentacles and only one of them gets stuck. Then they retreat and the Archer (2 rounds) and the Wizard with another round maybe nail another one. So the enemy just lost 2 out of his 5 people. But hey, they got away and can be REALLY SNEAKY.
There are a myriad of possibilities to get a round worth of actions without the enemy being free to escape unhurt.
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Have them roleplay learning how to be an alchemist from the Alchemist :)
I like this a lot.
Alternately, you may want to show them bits of this thread! A dip of Alchemist can seem really impressive (and it seems your players were impressed by the Alchemist's troll-killing feat), but it's not a game-breaker.
As a side note, the most useful ability my PFS fighter has gained from his 3-level dip in alchemist is easily the ability to use wands of cure light/mod/etc. If no one in the party wants to play a healer, everyone taking a level of alchemist might not be such a bad thing.
Diviner Wizard as a probability is becoming an old argument.
Then its
Enemy 1
Enemy 2
Fighter
Enemy 3
Enemy 4
Enemy 5
Barbarian
Cleric
Bard
Wizard
So the enemies go first! What will they do? Attack? Delay?
All team members delay on the wizard. Now there are 2 options:
1. Enemies have moved in! PERFECT! Slam them with some Control
2. Enemies have delayed, too. Good! Give them some Control.
Rest of the Team comes now and drinks its potions.
Even if the Wizard goes LAST the enemies will stand no chance to just "go away!
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No, because enemy has an archer Inquisitor and a spell already cast on itself to get a +x bonus to this initiative roll, making him go first for sure. Then casts silence. Also, they have a balor, because hey, because.
The whole "they have a diviner wizard" is really becoming old. No they don't, no, the wizard doesn't has the right spells prepared at all times. OP's problem with the characters is their 10-minutes buff ; and a 10-minutes buff/day sucks a lot when you know that there doesn't need to have only one encounter per day, that you may simply put several big creatures at short intervals so they get this bonus only a limited time per day at the price of 1 BAB and one action which provokes, and that the enemy doesn't have to stay and be slaughtered when the mutagen is ingested.
No, because enemy has an archer Inquisitor and a spell already cast on itself to get a +x bonus to this initiative roll, making him go first for sure. Then casts silence. Also, they have a balor, because hey, because.
The whole "they have a diviner wizard" is really becoming old. No they don't, no, the wizard doesn't has the right spells prepared at all times. OP's problem with the characters is their 10-minutes buff ; and a 10-minutes buff/day sucks a lot when you know that there doesn't need to have only one encounter per day, that you may simply put several big creatures at short intervals so they get this bonus only a limited time per day at the price of 1 BAB and one action which provokes, and that the enemy doesn't have to stay and be slaughtered when the mutagen is ingested.
See my example. Wizard goes last.
No matter how you turn it either the Wizard goes first or the enemies have depleted their actions already and thus cannot flee.
The only real option to get away is to win Init in an open enviroment and instantly run away and hope he has no 400ft+40ft/lvl spells that can keep you from getting away. Or you have multiple casters who use transportation magic (not that if they don't go first they could possibly not reach a member anymore of be dimensionally locked).
This whole THEY HAVE SPIES AND KNOW EVERYTHING is a lame DM Metagaming method. How does the enemy even know how many levels in which class you have? Has he watched you for 10 minutes? Have enemies even survived any combat to report what you do? Did he use (preventable) divination magic on the PCs?
Its easy to say that they know exactly where the PCs are and what they do. But how is this achieved? Every method is counterable. Invisible Guys, Hiding Rogues, Scrying Magic...
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The best method is to stretch encounters over all the day. But they will keep it for the tough encounters then. And two levels Alchemist still give the Rogue more attacks (it is even said that it counts as TWF, so you could stack it to 3 additional attacks with GTWF). And a Grabbing Tentacle Attack isn't the worst thing to happen to a Barbarian, too...
Diviner Wizard as a probability is becoming an old argument.They have the most powerful specialist school and the most powerful class abilities. Why would they not be the most numerous?
As for not having the right spell, that point is moot since you can cast any spell through arcane bond.
That is why I, unlike Treantmonk, think the Arcane Bond is good.
The only real reason for me to take an Familiar would be Improved Familiar (another Feat, meh) with a Nosoi. Those are so insanely good that I would take one every day.
Hmm, yeah I think the key here is to take the initiative, as it were, away from the PCs. Due to the nature of Kingmaker encounters I'll just have to buff the once a day encounters along with having more ambushing guys.
I have an idea of a party of bandits, which are mostly rangers and rogues hunting the PCs and otherwise inconveniencing them.
KM is poorly designed encounter wise.
As soon as the players spot ANYTHING they can basically fire their buff chains. Nothing can go wrong here.
You arrive at a pool! *Mage fires his buffs*.
Oh no, a Toad/Turtle whatever comes out...