So, just since I seemed to have missed this somewhere. You can level 2 different archetypes at the same time? So instead of at level 2 being a Vivisectionist 1, Beastmorph 1... at level 1 you can be be Vivisectionist/Beastmorph 1?
They're archetypes of the same class replacing multiple abilities. It's only leveling one class that being the Vivisectionist/Beastmorph Alchemist.
So, just since I seemed to have missed this somewhere. You can level 2 different archetypes at the same time? So instead of at level 2 being a Vivisectionist 1, Beastmorph 1... at level 1 you can be be Vivisectionist/Beastmorph 1?They're archetypes of the same class replacing multiple abilities. It's only leveling one class that being the Vivisectionist/Beastmorph Alchemist.
Got it. Completely destroys the whole flavor of having archetypes, and is probably one of the stupidest things I've ever seen. Can't believe it's actually legal. But I won't derail. I'll just make a new thread.
Got it. Completely destroys the whole flavor of having archetypes, and is probably one of the stupidest things I've ever seen. Can't believe it's actually legal. But I won't derail. I'll just make a new thread.So, just since I seemed to have missed this somewhere. You can level 2 different archetypes at the same time? So instead of at level 2 being a Vivisectionist 1, Beastmorph 1... at level 1 you can be be Vivisectionist/Beastmorph 1?They're archetypes of the same class replacing multiple abilities. It's only leveling one class that being the Vivisectionist/Beastmorph Alchemist.
I've got no reason to hate it. To me it simply adds more variety and flavor to the point where you can make completely different classes. This isn't really a bad thing.
So, just since I seemed to have missed this somewhere. You can level 2 different archetypes at the same time? So instead of at level 2 being a Vivisectionist 1, Beastmorph 1... at level 1 you can be be Vivisectionist/Beastmorph 1?
You can have as many archetypes as you want, as long as they don't modify or replace the same abilities.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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So, just since I seemed to have missed this somewhere. You can level 2 different archetypes at the same time? So instead of at level 2 being a Vivisectionist 1, Beastmorph 1... at level 1 you can be be Vivisectionist/Beastmorph 1?You can have as many archetypes as you want, as long as they don't modify or replace the same abilities.
Hey Cheapy,
Would you mind if I include a modified version of this build in a monthly column I write for a different forum? The specific column is all about broken builds in Pathfinder. I'll put you down as the concept-creator. :-D
So, just since I seemed to have missed this somewhere. You can level 2 different archetypes at the same time? So instead of at level 2 being a Vivisectionist 1, Beastmorph 1... at level 1 you can be be Vivisectionist/Beastmorph 1?You can have as many archetypes as you want, as long as they don't modify or replace the same abilities.Hey Cheapy,
Would you mind if I include a modified version of this build in a monthly column I write for a different forum? The specific column is all about broken builds in Pathfinder. I'll put you down as the concept-creator. :-D
As long as you mention that I advocate not allowing this, sure!
I think the main 'broken' element here is that Paizo made a new type of bonus to Strength (et al) and put it in the hands of a class that has access to most of the other bonuses too and access to multiple attacks. (No single element is broken, just the whole.)
If they'd typed the mutagen a different bonus, it'd have avoided some of this issue. (i.e. size bonus as they do with Polymorph bonuses, even when size doesn't change) as at least it wouldn't stack w/ Enlarge/Polymorph effects.
Or if they'd remembered the lesson from Bull's Strength (used to be 10 min./level) and kept mutagens to similar lengths or had it scale with level (or put another stage before getting to 'great' & 'grand').
So did we find a final 'best build' at the various levels? And I suppose a 'best build' as a whole as well.
Nah, I got lazy and didn't finish crunching the higher levels.
A basic version of the build is up on the google docs though. Season with items you want. Make sure to grab a Potion of GMF +5 and Good Hope, and put them in adamantine vials. With arcane mark and Instant Summons. Good luck finding a bard with Brew Potion, I guess.
Get mithral fullplate. Get a +5 Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Ask your GM if Pearls of Power work with Extracts.
Actually, don't ask him that. That would mean that you are actually using this build.
One avenue to explore is whether Vestigal Arms twice and then 2 levels of barb for whichever totem power gives you claw attacks works to give you two extra claw attacks, RAW.
This suggests that it is not possible.
Just adding in other natural attacks won't help much. I mean, it'll help quite a bit. But you need WF and FCT in those to really make use of it and Dragon Style.
So in general, stacking Strength boosts (a dip into Armored Hulk Barbarian will net you Heavy Armor Proficiency and Rage) and adding in more natural attacks will help out as well. If you can add more Claws, the better.
There's probably some combination of classes that can outdamage my posted build (in the google docs), but what I like about AMY is that she not only can do a crap ton of damage, but also has great defenses. Nowhere near AM, but she's got ~33 AC at level 20 (which means the bad attackers can actually miss!), and a 50% miss chance due to Displacement. Stopping at 3rd level of Master Chymist also means we get 6th level Extracts. Other than the Polymorph spells, there doesn't appear to be anything too great there other than Heal.
I'd just like to say that your protestations against actually *doing* this have fallen on deaf ears.
If my current character dies, or we reroll a new campaign I am TOTALLY doing this.
If anything, I might play it like the Incredible Hulk where I only freak out for a short time for very specific reasons, but yeah.
So going to happen...I thank you as much as the DM will curse you.
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So, just since I seemed to have missed this somewhere. You can level 2 different archetypes at the same time? So instead of at level 2 being a Vivisectionist 1, Beastmorph 1... at level 1 you can be be Vivisectionist/Beastmorph 1?You can have as many archetypes as you want, as long as they don't modify or replace the same abilities.Hey Cheapy,
Would you mind if I include a modified version of this build in a monthly column I write for a different forum? The specific column is all about broken builds in Pathfinder. I'll put you down as the concept-creator. :-D
Can i get a link to the column?
There's probably some combination of classes that can outdamage my posted build (in the google docs), but what I like about AMY is that she not only can do a crap ton of damage, but also has great defenses. Nowhere near AM, but she's got ~33 AC at level 20 (which means the bad attackers can actually miss!), and a 50% miss chance due to Displacement. Stopping at 3rd level of Master Chymist also means we get 6th level Extracts. Other than the Polymorph spells, there doesn't appear to be anything too great there other than Heal.
This threw mew off, since the Google Doc has Master Chymist to 7, what are you suggesting replacing 4 levels of it with?
Or are you simply saying you CAN replace 4 levels of it without damaging the overall concept too much?
Can i get a link to the column?So, just since I seemed to have missed this somewhere. You can level 2 different archetypes at the same time? So instead of at level 2 being a Vivisectionist 1, Beastmorph 1... at level 1 you can be be Vivisectionist/Beastmorph 1?You can have as many archetypes as you want, as long as they don't modify or replace the same abilities.Hey Cheapy,
Would you mind if I include a modified version of this build in a monthly column I write for a different forum? The specific column is all about broken builds in Pathfinder. I'll put you down as the concept-creator. :-D
I would also love a link!
There's probably some combination of classes that can outdamage my posted build (in the google docs), but what I like about AMY is that she not only can do a crap ton of damage, but also has great defenses. Nowhere near AM, but she's got ~33 AC at level 20 (which means the bad attackers can actually miss!), and a 50% miss chance due to Displacement. Stopping at 3rd level of Master Chymist also means we get 6th level Extracts. Other than the Polymorph spells, there doesn't appear to be anything too great there other than Heal.
This threw mew off, since the Google Doc has Master Chymist to 7, what are you suggesting replacing 4 levels of it with?
Or are you simply saying you CAN replace 4 levels of it without damaging the overall concept too much?
The google docs version is different from the OP version. The GD version is slightly better off, IMO.
The 4 levels of master chymist would go back into Alchemist. This would give us a high enough caster level to make 6th level extracts. I'm not actually sure if we could grab Grand mutagen then. Would need to juggle around the levels of master chymist, since alchemist levels stack with it for advanced mutagens but not Discoveries.
Fun fact: Car accidents aren't more likely to occur at higher speeds. They are most likely to occur when there's a great difference in speeds. This is why I do not advocate playing this build.
It would be amazingly fun. It is amazingly powerful. It would be amazingly efficient.
It would cause amazingly huge issues unless everyone else in the group was as powerful. It would trivialize the contributions of everyone else. It would turn the game into something that is not fun for everyone but you. This will cause resentment towards you.
Why bother doing anything in combat? May as well just sit on the sidelines while the selfish jerk rushes around killing everything, constantly stealing the spotlight and marginalizing your contributions to combat.
This is meant to be a teamwork based game. Such powerful builds as AMY and AM turn it into a competition with other players.
Then, the GM fiats that your character dies. No ifs-ands-or-buts. He just dies. He's walking down the street one day when 200 flaming cow corpses rain down from the sky, curiously striking the square he is in. There is no reflex saving throw. There is no damage. There is only death.
Then everyone else in the party feigns sorrow, secretly glad that the jerk who made their gaming un-fun has been destroyed in such an amusing way. And the GM scrutinizes your every choice for every character from then on, and is much less lenient towards you.
I do not recommend it.
Seconded. Allcaps builds, while stupidly powerful, should not be used outside of with other allcaps builds, lest you trivialize everything and make the rest of your party get bored.
Always AM responsibly.
There's probably some combination of classes that can outdamage my posted build (in the google docs), but what I like about AMY is that she not only can do a crap ton of damage, but also has great defenses. Nowhere near AM, but she's got ~33 AC at level 20 (which means the bad attackers can actually miss!), and a 50% miss chance due to Displacement. Stopping at 3rd level of Master Chymist also means we get 6th level Extracts. Other than the Polymorph spells, there doesn't appear to be anything too great there other than Heal.
This threw mew off, since the Google Doc has Master Chymist to 7, what are you suggesting replacing 4 levels of it with?
Or are you simply saying you CAN replace 4 levels of it without damaging the overall concept too much?The google docs version is different from the OP version. The GD version is slightly better off, IMO.
The 4 levels of master chymist would go back into Alchemist. This would give us a high enough caster level to make 6th level extracts. I'm not actually sure if we could grab Grand mutagen then. Would need to juggle around the levels of master chymist, since alchemist levels stack with it for advanced mutagens but not Discoveries.
Fun fact: Car accidents aren't more likely to occur at higher speeds. They are most likely to occur when there's a great difference in speeds. This is why I do not advocate playing this build.
It would be amazingly fun. It is amazingly powerful. It would be amazingly efficient.
It would cause amazingly huge issues unless everyone else in the group was as powerful. It would trivialize the contributions of everyone else. It would turn the game into something that is not fun for everyone but you. This will cause resentment towards you.
Why bother doing anything in combat? May as well just sit on the sidelines while the selfish jerk rushes around killing everything, constantly stealing the spotlight and marginalizing your contributions to combat.
I hear all that, but it's the same argument as why have characters like Hawkeye or Black Widow on the same team as Thor and the Hulk who are so powerful; or why have the Flash and Wonder Woman when Superman can do all they can do, and Batman is better than everyone else, any way?
That's where the role playing element comes into play.
If I was still the 13 year old power gamer who sneaks in the castle to murder everyone's faces before the rest of the group got out of camp, that would be bad.
And, you are *quite* justified in issuing such disclaimers for people who are just looking to have the biggest 'sword' at the table.
But for me, I think the concept of a hideously deformed schizophrenic who's afraid of her own shadow, and freaks the hell out under certain unique situations and wakes up chest-heaving smeared in blood and orc bits while her companions stare at her in shock and horror...
IS AWESOME.
It's as much up to the players to balance themselves as it is the DM.
+21 2d6+28 / +16 2d6+28 / +11 2d6+28
Furious Focus would clearly add +4 to the first attack of the fighter, and +3 to the first attack of the alchemist.
If we took the 9th and 11th level feat for WF (bite) and FCT (bite), the routine for the alch would be:
Full Routine: +22 1d6+33 / +22 1d6+30 / +22 1d8+30
When sneak attacking: +24 1d6+33+5d6 / +24 1d6+5d6 / +24 1d8+30+5d6
When pouncing into a sneak attack: +26 1d6+33+5d6 / +26 1d6+33+5d6 / +26 1d8+30+5d6Also, they can take a discovery to let them have 2 extracts in one. Lets use that to grab Enlarge Person (+2 strength and reach!) and Shield (+4 AC!)
Oh yea, and he can fly.
So let me get this straight:
You are getting a +5 Magic Fang Potion 3000 GP once or twice a day?- That's a Heavy Tax for level 12
Also, you are Counting Amulet of Mighty Fists +2 (which uses Greater magic Fang to create). Both give "Enhancement Bonus" to strength and do not stack.
Your attacks look like this: Claw, Claw, Bite (so that your claw is your first attack and maximizes your claw+bite damage, I understand this)
Claw 1 to hit = +8 BAB + 9 str + 5 GMF (otherwise +2 from amulet instead) +1 WF_Claw -0 Power ATtack (Furious Focus negates) -5 Secondary attack = +18 to hit
Claw 1 damage = +13 Str bonus(x1 1/2 from Dragon Style) + 6 Power Attack(NOT +9, because it is NOT your primary attack, your bite is... see Pathfinder FAQ)+4 Dragon Ferocity +5 GMF= 1d6 +28
Claw 2 to hit = +8 BAB +9 Str -5 Secondary Attack -3 Power Attack +5 GMF +1 WF_Claw = +15
Claw 2 Damage = +4 Str (its a secondary attack and it's not going first)+3 power attack (because its a secondary attack)+5 GMF +4 Dragon Ferocity = +16
Bite to hit = +8 BAB +9 STR +5 GMF -3 Power Attack = +19
Bite Damage = +9 STR +6 Power Attack +4 Dragon Ferocity +5 GMF = +24
(Dragon style Not added as it isn't first attack of the round)
So, First claw is +18 (1d6+28),Second claw is +15 (1d6+16) Bite is +19 (1d8+24)
Plus your sneak attack if that is applicable.
You gotta read those rules buddy... that's all I got unless I missed something else. Again, it shouldn't be ignored that you are burning money on that Greater magic Fang to get these rolls, and even when you do.. it's not that overpowered IMHO.
You are getting a +5 Magic Fang Potion 3000 GP once or twice a day?
- That's a Heavy Tax for level 12
Someone didn't read what the alchemist actually does with it.
Someone didn't read what the alchemist actually does with it.You are getting a +5 Magic Fang Potion 3000 GP once or twice a day?
- That's a Heavy Tax for level 12
Oh yeah... that's fine, I forgot useful spell. Still doesn't account for all the wrongness in the numbers of the build. :-)
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Claw 1 to hit = +8 BAB + 9 str + 5 GMF (otherwise +2 from amulet instead) +1 WF_Claw -0 Power ATtack (Furious Focus negates) -5 Secondary attack = +18 to hit
Claw 1 damage = +13 Str bonus(x1 1/2 from Dragon Style) + 6 Power Attack(NOT +9, because it is NOT your primary attack, your bite is... see Pathfinder FAQ)+4 Dragon Ferocity +5 GMF= 1d6 +28
Claw 2 to hit = +8 BAB +9 Str -5 Secondary Attack -3 Power Attack +5 GMF +1 WF_Claw = +15
Claw 2 Damage = +4 Str (its a secondary attack and it's not going first)+3 power attack (because its a secondary attack)+5 GMF +4 Dragon Ferocity = +16Bite to hit = +8 BAB +9 STR +5 GMF -3 Power Attack = +19
Bite Damage = +9 STR +6 Power Attack +4 Dragon Ferocity +5 GMF = +24
(Dragon style Not added as it isn't first attack of the round)
It's worse then that TarkXT;
First if you only use natural attacks that round they are flagged as primary so no secondary attack penalty.
Second It is +9 to damage since that first attack is flagged as getting 1.5 strength on it activating the x3 modifier for power attack.
And since I doubt he'll click the link lets explain it simpler. He spent 3K to buy ONE potion and just re uses it at will (Perk of being an alchemist of his level).
And since I doubt he'll click the link lets explain it simpler. He spent 3K to buy ONE potion and just re uses it at will (Perk of being an alchemist of his level).
He did, you posted too soon.
Sorry, why are they all considered primary attacks?
Sorry, why are they all considered primary attacks?
Because they are natural attacks. And bite and claw attacks are all primary.
Call me crazy, but I am not actually convinced that this is broken, assuming the character starts from 1st level. Note that I am not saying it is weak either. It is a very interesting build although I am confused a bit as there are so many iterations.
There are a lot of assumptions that don't actually occur in game play. Things such as:
Buff time (I always find this to be a problem for gish types). Some battles end before your buffing is done or you are ambushed.
Down time to make a new mutagen may not always be possible
The greater fang +5 potion may not be available by a lot of DM's.
Melee types get better and better at higher levels due to more attacks while this character is always at 3 (I think).
pure BAB types get access to some awesome feats before this guy will (i.e. dazzing strike, crit feats, etc.) which is helpful to them.
His AC is really low at high levels.
As a DM, I would only be against it if I was starting the campaign at 10+ level. I would allow the PC to play it at level one. Is this any crazier than some of the summoner builds?
On a somewhat seperate topic, the vivisectionist was a bad design idea. This archetype and this example further marganalizes rogues!
EDIT: I also want to say, great thread. It has been enjoyable reading.
+21 2d6+28 / +16 2d6+28 / +11 2d6+28
Furious Focus would clearly add +4 to the first attack of the fighter, and +3 to the first attack of the alchemist.
If we took the 9th and 11th level feat for WF (bite) and FCT (bite), the routine for the alch would be:
Full Routine: +22 1d6+33 / +22 1d6+30 / +22 1d8+30
When sneak attacking: +24 1d6+33+5d6 / +24 1d6+5d6 / +24 1d8+30+5d6
When pouncing into a sneak attack: +26 1d6+33+5d6 / +26 1d6+33+5d6 / +26 1d8+30+5d6Also, they can take a discovery to let them have 2 extracts in one. Lets use that to grab Enlarge Person (+2 strength and reach!) and Shield (+4 AC!)
Oh yea, and he can fly.
So let me get this straight:
You are getting a +5 Magic Fang Potion 3000 GP once or twice a day?
- That's a Heavy Tax for level 12Also, you are Counting Amulet of Mighty Fists +2 (which uses Greater magic Fang to create). Both give "Enhancement Bonus" to strength and do not stack.
Your attacks look like this: Claw, Claw, Bite (so that your claw is your first attack and maximizes your claw+bite damage, I understand this)
** spoiler omitted **So, First claw is +18 (1d6+28),Second claw is +15 (1d6+16) Bite is...
Yea, guess I did forget about the Amulet of Mighty Fists being enhancement bonus bit.
Time to make it Holy!
Thankfully, I think that's from the forum postings. And AMY is loosely based off of it. But AMY doesn't use an Amulet of Mighty Fists yet.
Also, natural attacks that are normally primary (such as Bite and Claws) that are meant to be secondary (such as Razortusk's bite attack) are listed as such in the ability that gives them.
Heck, that doesn't even matter:
These are primary attacks and are made using the alchemist’s full base attack bonus.
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Call me crazy, but I am not actually convinced that this is broken, assuming the character starts from 1st level. Note that I am not saying it is weak either. It is a very interesting build although I am confused a bit as there are so many iterations.
There are a lot of assumptions that don't actually occur in game play. Things such as:
Buff time (I always find this to be a problem for gish types). Some battles end before your buffing is done or you are ambushed.
Down time to make a new mutagen may not always be possible
The greater fang +5 potion may not be available by a lot of DM's.
Melee types get better and better at higher levels due to more attacks while this character is always at 3 (I think).
pure BAB types get access to some awesome feats before this guy will (i.e. dazzing strike, crit feats, etc.) which is helpful to them.
His AC is really low at high levels.
As a DM, I would only be against it if I was starting the campaign at 10+ level. I would allow the PC to play it at level one. Is this any crazier than some of the summoner builds?
On a somewhat seperate topic, the vivisectionist was a bad design idea. This archetype and this example further marganalizes rogues!
EDIT: I also want to say, great thread. It has been enjoyable reading.
You might want to dig into the Alchemist threads a bit since most of those issues are easily addressed there but we'll summarize a bit.
First the mister hyde prestige class lets him get 2 free uses of his mutagen every day so he gets a minimum of 3 changes before he needs to brew another one.
His buff time is usually 1 standard action before any major fight.
Ac is obnoxiously high when he wants it to be but is usually about 30.
Melee types have more attacks but a lower chance to hit with them. He can reliably get all of his attacks to hit for more average damage per round.
His buff time is usually 1 standard action before any major fight.
well that's the kicker.. how do you know the major fight is coming? If you're lucky you'll know about half the time.
Sorry, With All attacks being Primary attacks. The numbers still aren't as large as you placed them.
Claw 1 damage = +13 Str bonus(x1 1/2 from Dragon Style) + 9 Power Attack+4 Dragon Ferocity +5 GMF= 1d6 +31
Claw 2 to hit = +8 BAB +9 Str -3 Power Attack +5 GMF +1 WF_Claw = +20
Claw 2 Damage = +9 Str +6 power attack +5 GMF +4 Dragon Ferocity = +24
Bite to hit = +8 BAB +9 STR +5 GMF -3 Power Attack = +19
Bite Damage = +9 STR +6 Power Attack +4 Dragon Ferocity +5 GMF = +24
(Dragon style Not added as it isn't first attack of the round)
So, First claw is +23 (1d6+31),Second claw is +20 (1d6+24) Bite is +19 (1d8+24)
Plus your sneak attack if that is applicable.
Call me crazy, but I am not actually convinced that this is broken, assuming the character starts from 1st level. Note that I am not saying it is weak either. It is a very interesting build although I am confused a bit as there are so many iterations.
There are a lot of assumptions that don't actually occur in game play. Things such as:
Buff time (I always find this to be a problem for gish types). Some battles end before your buffing is done or you are ambushed.
Down time to make a new mutagen may not always be possible
The greater fang +5 potion may not be available by a lot of DM's.
Melee types get better and better at higher levels due to more attacks while this character is always at 3 (I think).
pure BAB types get access to some awesome feats before this guy will (i.e. dazzing strike, crit feats, etc.) which is helpful to them.
His AC is really low at high levels.
As a DM, I would only be against it if I was starting the campaign at 10+ level. I would allow the PC to play it at level one. Is this any crazier than some of the summoner builds?
On a somewhat seperate topic, the vivisectionist was a bad design idea. This archetype and this example further marganalizes rogues!
EDIT: I also want to say, great thread. It has been enjoyable reading.
You're crazy! Maybe.
AMY ALCHY is the canonical version. I made the OP as something when I was bored, so I didn't think it through fully. AMY is meant to be "organic", as in "built from level 1".
Point 1) There's no buff time necessary. Mutagen lasts 10 minutes per level. Potion of GMF lasts for hours per level.
Point 2) Yea. But even +3 (which should definitely be allowed) works fine. This is an exercise in ridiculousness, hence the assumption of +5.
Point 3) Melee types get better due to higher BAB. Higher chance to hit means more times you...uh...hit. If you miss, your DPR for the round sucks! At level 20, the attacks at -10 and -15 can be written off as misses, IMO, leaving them with 2 attacks at Full and Full - 5. Those are the ones that matter. Maybe the -10 one will hit now and then. But still, that's nothing close to 3 attacks at Full BAB.
Point 4) Very true. But this guy can take out a lot of enemies in one round, so you don't need the effect feats. (Yea, that's a weak argument, so sue me, I have AMY on retainer :) )
Point 5) Is not. Your average fighter will be in Full Plate with a bunch of defensive items. He won't have a shield, and his dex won't be too great. This chick? She'll be in Full Plate. With Dex (from Grand mutagen) filling up all the Dex bonus for the item (3 if Mithral). She'll have +6 natural armor. An amulet of Natural armor adds an enhancement bonus to Natural Armor, so let's say that's another +5. (As someone else pointed out, we don't need the Amulet of Mighty Fists with the potion). Let's say her full plate is +5 too. Why not, it's a build that doesn't require too many items other than that potion. So! Her AC is: 10 (base) + 9 (mithral full plate) +3 (dex) + 5 (enhancement bonus of full plate) + 6 (mutagen) + 5 (amulet of natural armor) = 38.
Oh, and if she spends a round buffing up, she'd have Displacement up for 50% miss chance, and +4 AC from Shield.
For a total of 42 AC and 50% miss chance. Does the number 42 mean anything to you? Because it to me, it's the answer to life, the universe, and everything.
A CR 20 creature with HIGH attack will have about +30 to hit. So...buffed up she has something like 60% chance to not be hit, before the displacement comes into play.
Point 6) No comment.
Point 7) Screw rogues >:| They're a personality, not a class.
Sorry, With All attacks being Primary attacks. The numbers still aren't as large as you placed them.
** spoiler omitted **
So, First claw is +23 (1d6+31),Second claw is +20 (1d6+24) Bite is +19 (1d8+24)
Plus your sneak attack if that is applicable.
If those numbers are from the thread, ignore them :) They are deprecated.
But thanks for reminding me about the Amulet of Mighty Fists, mate. I'll be sure to spend that elsewhere at higher levels when I eventually crunch the numbers.
His buff time is usually 1 standard action before any major fight.well that's the kicker.. how do you know the major fight is coming? If you're lucky you'll know about half the time.
AMY doesn't need to pre-buff.
It sure as hell helps though.
I would love to have missed something big, by the way. I didn't mean this to be a competition, like AM vs the Diviner. Just a learning exercise.
The only weak point of AMY, as far as I can tell, is the non-mutagened bite attack. I do not own Orcs of Golarion, where the trait is. I assumed that it was a primary attack with 1d4 damage. If it's not primary, I will update the docs.
The rest is RAW. Except for the changeling having two claws. But it is so obvious that it's the intent.
AM versus diviner isn't supposed to be a competition either. Those castys just keep thinking they have a prayer. :P
Is multiattack permitted for this build? You have the 3 natural attacks needed to qualify. I was looking at this, and found at the higher levels, once iterative attacks start kicking in, that it looked like a benefit.
You've already taken monk, so you get BAB/BAB-5/BAB-10 with the UAS, plus the three natural attacks at BAB-2. The same magic fang trick works for the UAS.
The natural attacks become secondary, so you lose some str/power attack damage, but the additional attacks get full str and sneak attack damage to compensate.
You need multiple iterative attacks to make it worth making the natural attacks secondary and losing the str damage, so at lower levels you go natural attacks only.
I haven't looked at this in combination with the feral combat training, so I'm not sure how that interacts.
Yea, I guess multi-attack would work. Hadn't thought about that. Nice.
I suspect as well that it might be better. But you would lose a lot of Str damage, and for two extra attacks. The first attack can basically be assumed to hit against a CR equal enemy. Second one...not so much. Third one can be written off.
But when sneak attacking, it very well could be always more worth it.
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Yea, I guess multi-attack would work. Hadn't thought about that. Nice.
I suspect as well that it might be better. But you would lose a lot of Str damage, and for two extra attacks. The first attack can basically be assumed to hit against a CR equal enemy. Second one...not so much. Third one can be written off.
But when sneak attacking, it very well could be always more worth it.
Multi-attack is a nice feat usually however I'm going to recommend against taking it, especially for any build that doesn't spring for a level of Monk.
For the build as it currently exists it would require you to CONSTANTLY be under a greater invisibility spell to get the sneak attack dice to make up for the loss of damage from the natural attacks (you lose HALF your strength damage on every one of those attacks). Add to that you get restricted to a VERY small group of weapons you can use (only ones that aren't wielded in your hands) or you have to burn a feat to get IUS for even worse damage on your kicks unless you are a monk.
Skip it, you are better off without it.
How hard would it be to pick up two-weapon fighting with armor spikes or improved unarmed strike for an extra attack, and does it help?
Very true, but we have many spare feats. Using multiattack when it is best is an option. Use just natural attacks the rest :-)
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Very true, but we have many spare feats. Using multiattack when it is best is an option. Use just natural attacks the rest :-)
Point taken, this build is after all functionally a superior rogue build so following the guidelines for rogues to maximize sneak attack damage is valid.
Core suggestion for this is always K.I.S.S and dealing with the juggling act that is mixing natural attacks with iterative attacks is just to much work for me these days.
Very true, but we have many spare feats. Using multiattack when it is best is an option. Use just natural attacks the rest :-)Point taken, this build is after all functionally a superior rogue build so following the guidelines for rogues to maximize sneak attack damage is valid.
Core suggestion for this is always K.I.S.S and dealing with the juggling act that is mixing natural attacks with iterative attacks is just to much work for me these days.
Huh, never thought about how this basically *is* a glorified rogue. With extracts.
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha, that's ironic, isn't it?
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Very true, but we have many spare feats. Using multiattack when it is best is an option. Use just natural attacks the rest :-)Point taken, this build is after all functionally a superior rogue build so following the guidelines for rogues to maximize sneak attack damage is valid.
Core suggestion for this is always K.I.S.S and dealing with the juggling act that is mixing natural attacks with iterative attacks is just to much work for me these days.
Huh, never thought about how this basically *is* a glorified rogue. With extracts.
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha, that's ironic, isn't it?
Yup, goes back to the flame war days of the best Rogue isn't a Rogue, it's a Wizard. Alchemist is even better now.
Make sure to stock up on your acid flasks, those are the REAL thieves tools for dealing with locks & traps now.
My main point about allowing such a class is that he starts at first level and he has to survice. A lot of his uber abilities do not occur until 10+ level. And at these levels, casters are already near gods, so why shouldn't he be?
He also is fairly weak at the lower levels, before feral mutagen. This also gives a GM time to adapt to such a character and design apporpriate challenges.
To clairfy some of my other comments.
In regards to buffing, there are situations like overland travel, night attacks, etc. In cases like these, he will only have time to drink his mutagen. Alot of these cases being stated are when he is prepped to go into the dungeon. I do agree that the mutagen is of a sufficent duration for these cases (most of the time).
For full BAB, I find the first three attacks have a good chance to hit. The first attack is usually a guarentee! And boots of haste help the figter more than AMY.
Sneak attack is also often very sitational, as the many rogue threads point out.
I do agree that an alchemist is a terror if given time to buff. Practically every extract is a buff.
She's actually ready to go at level 3. She just gets amazingly better as she levels up. Really, the core of the build is the first 5 levels. It finally starts working at level 3. It starts to get ridiculous at level 5. By level 13 or 14, it's completely off the charts.
Here's the DPR of her not using mutagen, not sneak attacking, but using Power Attack:
Non-mutagen:
Str: 20 = +5
Attack: +3 +5 +1 = +9 Claws, +8 Bite
Damage: Claws: 1d4+5+1+2 = 1d4+8. First claw will do 1d4+10
Bite: 1d4+5+1 = 1d4+6DPR of PA without mutagen, No SA.
.55*14.5*1.05 + .55*12.5*1.05 + .5*10.5*1.05
8.37375 + 7.21875 + 5.5125 = 21.105 DPR without mutagen. About 2 less if the natural bite attack is a secondary attack. Still would be only 3 worse than the fighter in the best situation.
Here's the 5th level fighter.
Level 5 Fighter, uses a greatsword. No archetypes because I don’t want to deal with backhand chop.
Str: 21 (base 18 + 1 from level, +2 from belt)
BAB: 5
AB: 5 + 5 + 1 (WF) + 1(WT) + 1(enhancement) = +13. With PA, +11
Base damage: 2d6+2(WS)+1(enhancement)+7 (1.5 str) = 2d6+10. With PA, 2d6+16
No PA:
.8*17*(1.1) = 14.96 DPR
PA:
.7*23*1.1 = 17.71 DPR
PA with Furious Focus:
.8*23*1.1 = 20.24 DPR
PA with FF while flanking:
.9*23*1.1 = 22.77 DPR
Ehh ranger can do this better. Wild stalker/shapeshifter archtypes (it is legal), gives you rage and rage powers allowing you to have 4 natural attack (claw claw bite gore) you qualify for extra rage feat too. Overall damage is slightly lower... then you add the animal companion. Which ofc you could ride. And it doesn't need to multiclass. I haven't actually made the character because it's stupidly overpowered, but remember rangers also get access to strongjaw and greater magic fang as spells, and if riding it's mount and using the mounted barb rage powers easily passes the damage of a alchemist. I'll attempt to whip up a mock char and crunch the numbers when I get some free time.
EDIT:- Reading fail, ignore this post. Man the wild stalker archtype is actually really bad.
Actually...they aren't compatible.
First, Wild Stalker gives up all combat style feats. Notice how both Beastmaster and Falconer specify they give up the ranger combat style feat gained at 6th level? And notice how the class ability is "combat style feat"? If the archetype says "This ability replaces the ranger's combat style feat." it means they lose *all* of them.
Secondly, the wild stalker gives up hunter's bond, which means no animal companion.
Thirdly, it's clear that there's an error in what Wild Talents actually replaces. I assume it meant Favored Terrain. Which means that if it weren't for losing all the combat style feats (again, which means you can't take Aspect of the Beast, so you can't get all those natural attacks), then the archetypes wouldn't stack.
Increasing damage dice is alright. It doesn't hurt if you can do it before combat, but the gains you get are exceedingly small. The spell list of the alchemist is undeniably better for this type too. Ton of buff spells. Lots of polymorph spells. Rage. Displacement. Stoneskin. Shield. Enlarge Person. Fly. Air Walk.
Although it would be really freaking cool if they did stack. That'd make for an awesome werewolf!
well that's embarrassing. Well you could also look at making a two dip into barbarian instead of monk. The extra gore attack and rage buff is probably stronger overall than what the monk gives, and you can still go the dragon style route, it's just slightly more feat intensive.
No worries mate.
One of my goals was to make this feasible as soon as possible, so being able to ignore the 3 ranks necessary for Dragon Style is key. It is meant as an organic build, made from level 1 on up, not from level 20 on down.
It did occur to me to take 2 levels of Armored Hulk instead of one level of Fighter, so I could grab Heavy Armor Proficiency without using any feats, and so I'd get some rage and rage powers. Could spend the other five gazillion open feats this chick has on Extra Rage and Extra Rage Power. But then we'd need to fit Rage Cycling in somehow, and man, we're already at 4 classes in the base build.
My only question is this:
Why would this be fun to play?
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My only question is this:
Why would this be fun to play?
Because you are selfish and want to hog all the spotlight, marginalizing everyone else in the party.
I may have exaggerated my statement of it being amazingly fun to play for emphasis on the following points.