4d8 per arrow at 20 if large at 20 Zen, 3d6 at 14 Zen if large.
It's also a question of how you get to large size.
True, Enlarge Person doesn't work for this kind of effect. Genuinely being large does though, as would gravity bow if you got access to it somehow.4d8 per arrow at 20 if large at 20 Zen, 3d6 at 14 Zen if large.It's also a question of how you get to large size.
Ranger levels and wands would be the best way i think.
It wouldn't be worth it even then -- you have to spend the ki point to use unarmed strike damage which isn't going to make up for the lost of the attack you could instead take with the same ki point, both the extra attack and the ki arrows ability use the swift action to activate, you are almost always better off taking the extra attack.
Yeah unless your at 2d10 and have a really high t0-hit bonus your probably better off with the extra attack.
Now however i am thinking about the moronicness of sohei/fighters flurrying with guns.
Because sure, the intended design was obviously to make you suck during half the game for most campaigns.
That's uh, pretty common actually.
I mean really you're lucky getting off on just half the game.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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| 12 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hi all,
I noticed this thread and read over it. I wrote the turnover for the monk section and can tell you my opinion as it pertains to the RAI of the sohei; however, my opinions carry no official weight as RAW if you are playing PFS or another campaign wherein that is important. For players in those campaigns, FAQ it and wait for SKR, SRM, or JB to comment.
For those interested in an unofficial opinion, however, I will tell you that the sohei is proficient with simple and martial weapons and with light armor; however, this is *NOT* meant to supersede the normal limitation on flurry of blows or any other monk ability that is limited by weapon or armor type, unless specifically noted to the contrary (as it is with the weapon training class feature, which lets you flurry with a weapon in which you have weapon training, rather than just unarmed strike or monk weapons).
In answer to the question of why a sohei WOULD wear armor, the simple answer is that going that route makes the sohei a less MAD class. They still have good Will saves and still mind but can dump WIS if they like and improve STR, DEX, or CON at its expense.
The monk makes up AC from armor when he forfeits his monk AC bonus from WIS and levels, but armor (including magic armor) is comparatively dirt cheap for the AC bonus it provides. Normally a monk would forfeit fast movement for armor, but sohei don't get that so loses nothing. Evasion still works in light armor. In sum, the other abilities are a wash or are retained; the only trade-off for wearing armor is losing flurry. Heck, if you had multiclassed with fighter and didn't care about evasion you could wear full plate if you wanted. Go with a modest Dex and totally buff your STR and CON.
If you want to be a flurry-er, you can certainly still go the standard monk route and jack your Wis, and it opens up all kinds of interesting options of combining weapon training with multiclassing, with polearms and lances, with bows. You'll just do it with no armor like a regular monk.
If you want to jack your physical stats instead, go with armor and a lower Wis.
An unarmored sohei is no worse a flurry-er than a normal monk, except at levels 4 and 5, when their flurry does on average 1 point less damage per hit because their unarmed damage doesn't advance after 1st level (though they could spend ki points to give their unarmed strike or weapon an enhancement bonus). At level 6 and above they become a better flurry-er, because they get better weapons to flurry with and get to add weapon training bonuses.
So, it was never intended to be a "both/and"; it was an archetype that gave you a choice of which route you wanted to go, depending on your tastes and the way you wanted to build your character, to create a monk that could be very different from the norm and yet still recognizably a monk.
Whether it succeeded in that goal is up to you. :)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Because sure, the intended design was obviously to make you suck during half the game for most campaigns.That's uh, pretty common actually.
I mean really you're lucky getting off on just half the game.
Depends on your opinions about what constitutes sucking. As always, YMMV.
Depends on your opinions about what constitutes sucking. As always, YMMV.
Hey, thanks for semi-not-really-but-sorta-official word!
However, I've got to say that this absolutely meets my opinion of what sucks. One of the Monk's biggest problems has not been a lack of options, but a lack of synergy between abilities. While many of the UC archetypes seemed to be aimed at ameliorating this problem, the Sohei makes it far worse.
Monk's already had the option of wearing armor. They could take a feat or a level of fighter, or just take the small to non-existant check penalty. It is just that nobody took that option, because it was pretty terrible. Giving up a large portion of your abilities, including the one (Flurry) that actually gives this class any sort of offensive ability, is not a great option. That you lose slightly less because you didn't have fast movement to start doesn't help that.
Add onto this mount-related abilities for a class that has no mount. And a weapon enhancement ability that is far worse than a Magus', but that costs Ki on a class that is supposed to get by with less wisdom. Then give up nearly all your other abilities for a weaker version of a fighter class feature.
Honestly, if it is the case that you cannot flurry in armor, I see little reason to ever give this archetype a second look. Which sort of sucks, as with a few fixes it might actually have been pretty cool.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Depends on your opinions about what constitutes sucking. As always, YMMV.Hey, thanks for semi-not-really-but-sorta-official word!
However, I've got to say that this absolutely meets my opinion of what sucks. One of the Monk's biggest problems has not been a lack of options, but a lack of synergy between abilities. While many of the UC archetypes seemed to be aimed at ameliorating this problem, the Sohei makes it far worse.
Monk's already had the option of wearing armor. They could take a feat or a level of fighter, or just take the small to non-existant check penalty. It is just that nobody took that option, because it was pretty terrible. Giving up a large portion of your abilities, including the one (Flurry) that actually gives this class any sort of offensive ability, is not a great option. That you lose slightly less because you didn't have fast movement to start doesn't help that.
Add onto this mount-related abilities for a class that has no mount. And a weapon enhancement ability that is far worse than a Magus', but that costs Ki on a class that is supposed to get by with less wisdom. Then give up nearly all your other abilities for a weaker version of a fighter class feature.
Honestly, if it is the case that you cannot flurry in armor, I see little reason to ever give this archetype a second look. Which sort of sucks, as with a few fixes it might actually have been pretty cool.
I don't think the world would explode if you let sohei flurry in armor. Then again, after 30+ years of gaming I'm a little more easygoing about some things than I used to be. It's a moderate bump in power, but I don't think it's gamebreaking.
You have people like Mike Schneider who think the sohei is already too good, and that flurrying in armor would be gilding the lily. You have people like you who think that without flurrying in armor he sucks. If there are people arguing both sides, it could be a sign that it's in the proper middle ground where people can have legitimate arguments over which way it should go. My sense of the arguments in the thread has been in part "SHOULD it say yes/no?" but more often asking "DOES it say yes/no?"
As for whether the sohei is an odd combination that essentially trades fast movement for a mount and some of their kit bag of monk stuff for better ranged capability and weapon choices... well, archetypes are funny things, and they are designed for all kinds of reasons to meet all kinds of conceptual niches.
Actually, for all the conversation I have heard on the boards over the years over how diviner wizards are TEH ROXXOR WINZORZ because of their super-initiative, I'm surprised more people haven't commented on the broadening of boosted initiative to other classes in UC, including clerics (Divine Strategist), fighters (Tactician), magus (Kensai), monk (Sohei), and maybe a barbarian one I'm forgetting.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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One other thing about the mount, btw. The mount ability is not intended to give you an animal companion. It's intended for you to take ANY mount and turn it into a weapon for you to use. Sure, at low and even mid levels a trained warhorse is still doing okay for you. At higher levels, you take Leadership to get an exotic mount, or buy a figurine of wondrous power, or see if you can make an arrangement with a party druid or spellcaster to provide an animal comp or summoned mount during combat.
Remember: Your mount gets almost every monk ability that you do. You slap that on an ordinary horse at high level, sure, lame. It dies, you buy a new one if you want. But slap it on a mount that's already interesting, and then suddenly it gets a lot more interesting.
You could, of course, multiclass with cavalier or druid or paladin some other class that gets an animal comp/mount if you wanted to go that route.
The basic idea, though, was just to have a little different take on a monk's steed, so that you didn't just have "hi, I'm a pet class and I use the animal comp rules" for every other class. Variety is the spice of life, right? :)
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<stare>
He can pull the same stunt dual-wielding wakizashis instead of firing a bow. In fact, he can do both, making not only the Zen archers and rangers look like chumps, but TWF crit-fisher melee guys as well.
Please show me which of the following weapon groups have Wakizashis.
bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons
Fighter[Weapon Master]3...Weapon Training:Wakizashi.
Once you're a 6th-level sohei, you can Flurry and Ki with any weapon you have WT in.
Average barbarian comes, sunders bow.
You cry, he wins.Average archer fighter comes, fires bow.
You die, he wins.
You mean, fighter goes down with two-dozen arrows in him for his four or five in you, then you Ginsu the AC-dumped barbarian with Keen/Agile wakizashis? And you're kinda hard to hit for even them in your spiffy Celestial Armor.
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Ah missed the multi class bit. So the Sohei is great if its more than a Sohei. I'm sure the zen archer can claim the same.
A Zen can multiclass like the dickens but he's still able to flurry only with a bow, can't Rapid/Manyshot while flurrying, and doesn't get Weapon Training/Glove cheese. An archer Sohei gets that without multiclassing.
Just stumbled on this thread last night; my PFS character is interested in how this one turns out. I gave her one level of Sohei because I wanted Flurry of Blows but not Stunning Fist, and so I opted for "always acts in the surprise round" over Stunning Fist.
Anyways, it sounds like there are one of three possibilities here:
-Sohei's entry for proficiencies entirely replaces Monk's entry. This means that a Sohei can use Flurry of Blows in armor.
-Sohei's entry for proficiencies appends the Monk's entry. This means that a Sohei is proficient in light armor, simple weapons, martial weapons, and monk weapons, but cannot use Flurry of Blows in armor.
-If it's not one of the first two, Paizo will have to effectively add text to the Sohei's proficiencies entry in an FAQ. They're going to have to clarify either way.
-Matt
wondering if his PFS PC can flurry in a mithral shirt...
Just stumbled on this thread last night; my PFS character is interested in how this one turns out. I gave her one level of Sohei because I wanted Flurry of Blows but not Stunning Fist, and so I opted for "always acts in the surprise round" over Stunning Fist.
Anyways, it sounds like there are one of three possibilities here:
-Sohei's entry for proficiencies entirely replaces Monk's entry. This means that a Sohei can use Flurry of Blows in armor.
-Sohei's entry for proficiencies appends the Monk's entry. This means that a Sohei is proficient in light armor, simple weapons, martial weapons, and monk weapons, but cannot use Flurry of Blows in armor.
-If it's not one of the first two, Paizo will have to effectively add text to the Sohei's proficiencies entry in an FAQ. They're going to have to clarify either way.
-Matt
wondering if his PFS PC can flurry in a mithral shirt...
The Sohei can flurry in armor. We figured that out a few post ago. Now we are just discussing other things.
The Sohei can flurry in armor. We figured that out a few post ago. Now we are just discussing other things.
I did read the rest of the thread thoroughly (well, maybe not the "OMG BUSTED" parts), and the issue does not seem very straightforward to me. Unlike, say, Monk of the Empty Hand's proficiency entry, Sohei's does not specify that it replaces the normal monk weapon proficiencies.
Similarly, the Sohei's entry for bonus feats, indicating that it can take mounted combat feats as bonus feats, does not say that it replaces the normal monk's bonus feats (which Tetori does), either.
So, we cannot be sure that the proficiency entry replaces or adds to the base monk's entry, because it does not say either way.
Also, here's some more weirdness: if the Sohei's proficency entry replaces the Monk's entry, then the Sohei may lose proficiency with the kama, nunchaku, sai, shuriken, and siangham, but will still have profiency in the APG weapons with the monk tag, as those weapons themselves specify that monks are proficient in them. The Sohei is still a monk after all.
-Matt
The Sohei can flurry in armor. We figured that out a few post ago. Now we are just discussing other things.I did read the rest of the thread thoroughly (well, maybe not the "OMG BUSTED" parts), and the issue does not seem very straightforward to me. Unlike, say, Monk of the Empty Hand's proficiency entry, Sohei's does not specify that it replaces the normal monk weapon proficiencies.
Similarly, the Sohei's entry for bonus feats, indicating that it can take mounted combat feats as bonus feats, does not say that it replaces the normal monk's bonus feats (which Tetori does), either.
So, we cannot be sure that the proficiency entry replaces or adds to the base monk's entry, because it does not say either way.
Also, here's some more weirdness: if the Sohei's proficency entry replaces the Monk's entry, then the Sohei may lose proficiency with the kama, nunchaku, sai, shuriken, and siangham, but will still have profiency in the APG weapons with the monk tag, as those weapons themselves specify that monks are proficient in them. The Sohei is still a monk after all.
-Matt
This link is where I figured it out. Click me
edit:I did not figure it out alone. I used the preceding post combined with what I posted.
You're right, concerro... if the Sohei's text actually replaces the Monk's text.
My point is that we do not actually know whether the Sohei's text replaces the Monk's text or adds to the Monk's text. It can actually go either way.
-Matt
You're right, concerro... if the Sohei's text actually replaces the Monk's text.
My point is that we do not actually know whether the Sohei's text replaces the Monk's text or adds to the Monk's text. It can actually go either way.
-Matt
When an archetype includes multiple alternate class features, a character must take them all—often blocking the character from ever gaining certain standard class features, but replacing them with other options. All other class features of the base class that aren't mentioned among the alternate class features remain unchanged and are acquired normally when the character reaches the appropriate level, unless noted otherwise. A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced for the purposes of meeting any requirements or prerequisites.
There is nothing in this that mentions adding to. The default is to replace. In order for an archetype to add to something it would have to say something like "X is gained in addition to ____".
Since weapon and armor proficiencies are class features they also fall under this.
You're right, concerro... if the Sohei's text actually replaces the Monk's text.
My point is that we do not actually know whether the Sohei's text replaces the Monk's text or adds to the Monk's text. It can actually go either way.
-Matt
While its not Paizo official I am pretty sure the author for the Sohei said that the rules as he intended did not remove the armour restrictions on the Sohei and Flurry etc.
I just wish Paizo's approach to FAQs was a bit more well... active. We'll need to wait on their official yay or nay
He did say that, but when material is handed over to Paizo they often change it. Sometimes they don't even use it.
Now I do hope it gets changed, because I think it is a little too good.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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You're right, concerro... if the Sohei's text actually replaces the Monk's text.
My point is that we do not actually know whether the Sohei's text replaces the Monk's text or adds to the Monk's text. It can actually go either way.
-Matt
While its not Paizo official I am pretty sure the author for the Sohei said that the rules as he intended did not remove the armour restrictions on the Sohei and Flurry etc.
I just wish Paizo's approach to FAQs was a bit more well... active. We'll need to wait on their official yay or nay
Agreed on all counts. There is no definitive answer to the question, as the RAW leaves room for interpretation either way. My RAI was no flurry in armor, though I don't think it's the end of the world to allow it. How you wanna play it is up to you.
There is nothing in this that mentions adding to. The default is to replace.
You are absolutely right, concerro. What I am pointing out is that the Sohei's proficiency entry, as well as the Sensei's Skills entry, is missing the "this replaces xxx" sentence that is printed in, well, just about every other archetype's class features.
Because that key piece of text which would specify whether the Sohei's proficiency entry replaces or appends the Monk's entry is missing, we really need an FAQ to clear this up.
-Matt
whose Sohei is holding off on a Mithral Shirt for the time being...
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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You're right, concerro... if the Sohei's text actually replaces the Monk's text.
My point is that we do not actually know whether the Sohei's text replaces the Monk's text or adds to the Monk's text. It can actually go either way.
-Matt
While its not Paizo official I am pretty sure the author for the Sohei said that the rules as he intended did not remove the armour restrictions on the Sohei and Flurry etc.
I just wish Paizo's approach to FAQs was a bit more well... active. We'll need to wait on their official yay or nay
He did say that, but when material is handed over to Paizo they often change it. Sometimes they don't even use it.
Now I do hope it gets changed, because I think it is a little too good.
Alas for the stuff that gets left on the cutting room floor. :(
There is nothing in this that mentions adding to. The default is to replace.You are absolutely right, concerro. What I am pointing out is that the Sohei's proficiency entry, as well as the Sensei's Skills entry, is missing the "this replaces xxx" sentence that is printed in, well, just about every other archetype's class features.
Because that key piece of text which would specify whether the Sohei's proficiency entry replaces or appends the Monk's entry is missing, we really need an FAQ to clear this up.
-Matt
whose Sohei is holding off on a Mithral Shirt for the time being...
Here is an example of "add to" text that another archetype has, but this one does not
Weapon and armor Proficiency:
Zen archers are proficient with longbows, shortbows, composite longbows, and composite shortbows in addition to their normal weapon proficiencies.
The Sohei does not have that. Since it is not adding then we have to go to the default of replace.
The Sohei does not have that. Since it is not adding then we have to go to the default of replace.
Yep, you're right about that, concerro. However, what we can be certain about is that the lack of any "additive" or "replacement" text is definitely an anomaly.
Which means it's FAQ time.
-Matt
The Sohei does not have that. Since it is not adding then we have to go to the default of replace.Yep, you're right about that, concerro. However, what we can be certain about is that the lack of any "additive" or "replacement" text is definitely an anomaly.
Which means it's FAQ time.
-Matt
The monk of the empty hand uses the word replace so you are right that the word replace or add in some form should be there.
Flurry is not taken away, only delayed until 6th level. I am not saying that is a good idea, but there is a difference.
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The monk of the empty hand uses the word replace so you are right that the word replace or add in some form should be there.The Sohei does not have that. Since it is not adding then we have to go to the default of replace.Yep, you're right about that, concerro. However, what we can be certain about is that the lack of any "additive" or "replacement" text is definitely an anomaly.
Which means it's FAQ time.
-Matt
"Overhand Chop (Ex)
At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls.
This ability replaces Armor Training 1."
I believe I can safely say this ability doesn't add 2x strength damage to your normal damage, but instead replace the 1/1-2 rule for using a two-handed weapon. Yet it doesn't clearly says so.
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Jason,
if the sohei has weapon training from the fighter class feature in Firearms group, is the intent that he's trained in that group so a Fighter 5/Sohei 6 can flurry with a Firearm?
what about a fighter (weapon master) 3 who gains an ability called "weapon training" in one weapon. Would that also qualify him as having Weapon Training in the weapon for Flurry purposes? or is the Sohei archetype intended to only allow flurrying from the groups listed in the archetype?