Mundane Crafting: Horrifically Broken?


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

Correct me if I have any part of this wrong:

Cost of an adamantine bastard sword - 3035 gold (or 30350 silver pieces)
DC to Craft - 18

Assuming you used the old epic crafting rules and upped the DC twice (to 38) and your take 10 check result is 38 the math looks like this:

38*38

1444 silver worth of progress per week. At this rate you're looking at 21 weeks. It takes roughly 5 months at DC 38 to make a 3k item.

Enchanting that item is leagues easier.

Cost of +2 enchantment for the above bastard sword - 8000 gold pieces
DC to Craft (at double speed) - 16 (5 + 6 + 5)
Time to craft - 4 days

It takes 5 months at DC 38 to make a 3k sword and then 4 days at DC 16 to give it a 8k enchantment.


Hence the fabricate spell.
But yeah, broken.

Just imagine how long adamantine full plate would take... <shudders>


Can you add +10 to the DC multiple times or just once?

Liberty's Edge

Technically, no, but you could in 3.5.


Master craftsman should work like Master Alchemist for smiths, masons, and carpenters, etc., in addition to just allowing you to take other feats.


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My own houserule fix :

Cost of special materials do not add to the time required for making an item. For example, the time to make a diamond MW ring, a ruby MW ring, and a quartz MW ring is all the same, the cost of the MW ring.

So, the time to make a MW steel sword, a MW mithral sword, and a MW Adamantine sword is all the same.

Craft the MW sword, then add the cost of the special materials.


Feral wrote:
Technically, no, but you could in 3.5.

Well, it's easy if you could add +10 to the DC multiple times. You just add +450 to the DC 18, hire 229 trained workers (that can make an aid another check without fail) for one day of work and take 10 on the check (with no training or Int penalty). The result should be 468^2/7 = 31289 sp of work done in one day's work and the item is yours. The cost of hiring so many trained workers that can pass an aid another roll without fail is probably more than 3 sp a day, but it's probably less than the 2023 gp you save by crafting the item yourself. Finding the hirelings and herding them is another matter. . . .

Liberty's Edge

mdt wrote:

My own houserule fix :

Cost of special materials do not add to the time required for making an item. For example, the time to make a diamond MW ring, a ruby MW ring, and a quartz MW ring is all the same, the cost of the MW ring.

So, the time to make a MW steel sword, a MW mithral sword, and a MW Adamantine sword is all the same.

Craft the MW sword, then add the cost of the special materials.

It is possible to argue that it is not even an houserule.

The rules explain how you produce the "regular" part of the item and the "masterwork" part of the item, but there is no rule about the "special material" production.

You can say that the production cost is already paid [in money and time] by the people that have smelt the metal or grow the darkwood tree.


Diego Rossi wrote:


It is possible to argue that it is not even an houserule.

Possibly, but it's really not worth arguing unless there's an FAQ on it (SKR did say that crafting was going to be a major FAQ project in a recent post).

Liberty's Edge

It is always worth arguing.
Life without a discussion every day is booring. ;D


Though, just imagine trying to work a metal that is harder than aluminum-magnesium-boride with titanium diboride impregnation (the closest a metal gets to diamond, which is softer than adamantine).


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Thelemic_Noun wrote:
Though, just imagine trying to work a metal that is harder than aluminum-magnesium-boride with titanium diboride impregnation (the closest a metal gets to diamond, which is softer than adamantine).

This should be fixed not by making it take longer, it really doesn't.

The amount of time to make a copper sword, an iron sword, and a steel sword are all pretty much the same.

What's different is the tools. You can make a copper sword with wooden tools. You can do the same with an iron sword. But, you need metal tools to make a steel sword. You can melt copper and iron much easier than steel (you need a higher temperature to make steel). By the same token, you need more advanced tools to work with the more advanced metals.

I like this approach because it means if you want to commission Mithral/Adamantine armor you need to find a smith who's set up to work them. They need a permanent, advanced forge, and heavy duty tools (Adamantine tools to forge Adamantine Armor for example). Quite probably they need enchanted tools and enchanted forge to work it, which means that while the average smith can craft Adamantine at 5th level (by taking 10 and having a high int and skill focus craft) he can't do it without the tools to work the metal. This brings back the rarity (since it's not worth the expense to get the tools in the first place unless you're going to specialize in it, or you're a world reknown smith who is expected to be able to work any metal).

A good rule of thumb would be you need at least +N enchanted tools to work the metal, where +N is the enhancement bonus that mimics the ability. So, if +4 can overcome DR/Adamantine (don't have book, it's either +4 or +5) then you need +4 Tools to work Adamantine.


The crafting rules become especially weird when combined with the trap rules.

A basic pit trap (CR1) is a 10x10x20 ft hole, covered up with a modicum of competence (Perception DC 20). The cost of making one of these is normally 1,000 gp, but the trap rules say you can lower the cost of exceedingly simple mechanical traps to 250 gp per CR, so let's go with that. The Craft DC is 20. Assume a pretty good crafter with a bonus of +15, taking 10. Each week he makes 500 sp worth of progress toward the trap, for a total of 5 weeks.

5 weeks. For a hole in the ground.

The moral of the story is, don't look too closely at the economics of Pathfinder. Down that path lies things like every citizen of Waterdeep having an average of a hundred chickens or whatever the 3e rule was.


For mundane crafting, take a look at Spes Magna Games PDF, Making Craft Work.

Go to Making Craft Work - Spes Magna Games.


I unreservedly applaud the recommendations of Making Craft Work. :)


The thing about comparing magic crafting to mundane is to remember its magic. you dont call move earth broken because i can dig a tunnel faster than a guy with a shovel can do the same work do you?

Liberty's Edge

Yeah, mundane crafting is pretty FUBAR...
It usually isn't a big part of games, so it doesn't get attention.

Just home-rule it.
-Kle.


mdt wrote:


Possibly, but it's really not worth arguing unless there's an FAQ on it (SKR did say that crafting was going to be a major FAQ project in a recent post).

Did Sean say that 'major FAQ project' for crafting is going to include magic item creation (magic item crafting)? It really needs it as well.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Feral wrote:

Correct me if I have any part of this wrong:

Cost of an adamantine bastard sword - 3035 gold (or 30350 silver pieces)
DC to Craft - 18

Assuming you used the old epic crafting rules and upped the DC twice (to 38) and your take 10 check result is 38 the math looks like this:

38*38

1444 silver worth of progress per week. At this rate you're looking at 21 weeks. It takes roughly 5 months at DC 38 to make a 3k item.

Enchanting that item is leagues easier.

Cost of +2 enchantment for the above bastard sword - 8000 gold pieces
DC to Craft (at double speed) - 16 (5 + 6 + 5)
Time to craft - 4 days

It takes 5 months at DC 38 to make a 3k sword and then 4 days at DC 16 to give it a 8k enchantment.

I'd say that's about right. It's also why every blacksmith isn't pumping out adamantine swords by the cartload. An adamantine sword is the equivalent of crafting the world's finest katana.... cranked up to eleven.


Hobbun wrote:
mdt wrote:


Possibly, but it's really not worth arguing unless there's an FAQ on it (SKR did say that crafting was going to be a major FAQ project in a recent post).
Did Sean say that 'major FAQ project' for crafting is going to include magic item creation (magic item crafting)? It really needs it as well.

Yeah, from the way he stated it, it sounds like it's going to be a Developer Tuesday post on the BLOG, and should be covering crafting as a whole. So it's going to be a fairly large post. That's both good (in that it seriously needs a major addressing) and bad (in that due to it being so involved, it's going to be a bit before we see it).


Actually crafting the sword is the labor intensive part, so it should take longer.

Crafting is a progress check, Magic Item Creation is a single pass/fail check. The Magic Item Creation check could be made a progress check, but since the penalties for failing the check are steeper (complete waste of time and material/cursed item), I would recommend against adding more rolls and therefore more chances for failure.

That's not saying the crafting rules aren't a wonky (they are).

Also, don't forget that while an 8k magic item may take only 8 days, a 200k magic item takes 200 days (that's about 7 months). You are comparing the high end of the mundane scale to the lower end of the magic scale.

If you really want Magic Item Creation to take longer, instead of basing the time on 1000gp you could base it on 500gp (twice as long), or 250gp (four times as long).


mdt wrote:
Hobbun wrote:
mdt wrote:


Possibly, but it's really not worth arguing unless there's an FAQ on it (SKR did say that crafting was going to be a major FAQ project in a recent post).
Did Sean say that 'major FAQ project' for crafting is going to include magic item creation (magic item crafting)? It really needs it as well.
Yeah, from the way he stated it, it sounds like it's going to be a Developer Tuesday post on the BLOG, and should be covering crafting as a whole. So it's going to be a fairly large post. That's both good (in that it seriously needs a major addressing) and bad (in that due to it being so involved, it's going to be a bit before we see it).

To be honest, I am glad to hear it is going to be big, because as you said, there is a lot for them to address (for normal and magic crafting), and I would like to see the issues addressed appropriately.

As for having to wait awhile for it, that’s ok for me as I am just glad to see it being addressed.

I will have to say I am still hoping to also see a “Rules Compendium” eventually, very similar to what WotC put out with 3.5. To help clear up all the issues we see reoccurring threads popping up on the forum.

The FAQ's and blogs are a step in the right direction, but not all players keeps an eye on the forums. Like with my gaming group, I am the only one.


I'd pay Companion price for a book that totally overhauls the crafting system, rules scatter be damned. Making Craft Work is a good stop gap for sanity, but as a few screamed back in Beta, this needed serious attention.

Not just a fix for low level my mundane but also higher level non-magical options. Like shackles you can put on a dragon.

IMO it would also go well with fortification/structure rules.


mdt wrote:


Yeah, from the way he stated it, it sounds like it's going to be a Developer Tuesday post on the BLOG, and should be covering crafting as a whole. So it's going to be a fairly large post. That's both good (in that it seriously needs a major addressing) and bad (in that due to it being so involved, it's going to be a bit before we see it).

Sorry to necro this, but I read this and was wondering was this ever addressed on the blog? The simple fix would be to allow crafting in GP and not SP, I think.

Liberty's Edge

Barachiel Shina wrote:
mdt wrote:


Yeah, from the way he stated it, it sounds like it's going to be a Developer Tuesday post on the BLOG, and should be covering crafting as a whole. So it's going to be a fairly large post. That's both good (in that it seriously needs a major addressing) and bad (in that due to it being so involved, it's going to be a bit before we see it).
Sorry to necro this, but I read this and was wondering was this ever addressed on the blog? The simple fix would be to allow crafting in GP and not SP, I think.

There is some stuff in Ultimate Campaign.

The problem is that from a realistic point of view the mundane crafting times aren't broken (some specific item is broken, especially those where the high price is not dependent from the crafting part but generate from other considerations, like for poison) but it is hard to integrate it in a fast paced campaign, the norm for the people playing APs.

Spending months to make a masterwork full plate? Yes, that was a major project for a armorsmithing team, not something that a single crafter made in his backyard. And it still did take months.
But during part of that time the master was capable to do other things while multiple journeymans and apprentices were working on the easier parts of the armor, polishing it, fitting straps and so on.
With the UCamp rules you can do that as you have a team producing unspecific Good capital. When you have enough capital to get a completed full plate you say "it is done" and produce it. It is more abstract that the CRB system, but it work better if you have a team of crafters.


Where in UCamp can I find item crafting rules via capital?


a simple "materials don't affect the price you need to hit" would be grant.

also, the way crafting currecntly works:

it is quicker to create more difficult things than easier ones.
that simply doesn't even make sense.

making it check*check would be like 1million times more logical and reasonable than making it check*DC

Liberty's Edge

Barachiel Shina wrote:
Where in UCamp can I find item crafting rules via capital?

Ultimate Campaign on the PDR specifically the part about downtime.

It is a interesting rulebook, especially if you are playing a slower campaign.
As a old style GM I like slower campaigns where there is the time to develop more the background, but it is a matter of taste.

Calling it UCamp is part of the forum jargon. We often use abbreviations for the rulebooks titles and UC was already used for Ultimate Combat.
;-)

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