If you have a +5 Seeking Brilliant Energy bow firing a +1 Corrosive Flaming Icy Holy arrow, is the effect an arrow that: Ignores any miss chances and armor or shield bonuses, has a +5 enhancement bonus, and also does 5d6 extra damage (to evil creatures lacking the correct resistances)?
Here is my situation to be extremely specific:
Due to Arcane Archer levels, my arrows fired also have the Shock property (+1). I also make extensive use of the Flame Arrow 3rd level wizard spell (but that doesn't apply to this at all since it just adds +1d6 fire damage to 50 arrows, not the actual Flaming enhancement...correct?).
Using Non-magical arrows (with flame arrow cast on them), once fired the arrows will be +5 Shock-Corrosive-Icy-Holy+1d6 fire. That puts the arrows at the +10 cap.
My main question is, do the arrows still benefit from my bows Seeking ability?
Any weapon can only have a max of +10 total. Anything going above +10 have some of its abilities "shut off" until it's down at +10 or below.
I fully understand that. My question is more of the "what counts towards that +10?" on the arrow itself variety.
Edit: To be more specific - I'm really looking for people's thoughts on this issue, as I'm sort-of sure that by RAW what I am doing works. Seeking and Brilliant Energy, for example, do not have the note next to them that they confer this bonus on the ammunition, which I believe means it doesn't count towards the arrow's +10 total. This would allow you to have some of those abilities on the Bow, while replacing their bonus with other enhancements on the arrow to get to +10 for the arrow itself.
Edit 2: Brilliant Energy was a bad choice for the example, as I just noticed now that it cannot be added to ranged weapons...only melee, thrown, and ammunition. Imagine the same scenario with a +5 Seeking Distance Speed bow instead.
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Any weapon can only have a max of +10 total. Anything going above +10 have some of its abilities "shut off" until it's down at +10 or below.I fully understand that. My question is more of the "what counts towards that +10?" on the arrow itself variety.
I'm not sure how else to explain it. A +5 Seeking Distance Speed bow is a +10 weapon. A +1 Corrosive Flaming Icy Holy arrow is a +7 weapon. Combined, the bow fires a +5 Seeking Distance Speed Corrosive Flaming Icy-Burst Holy arrow, which is a +16 weapon. You'd need to eliminate abilities or enhancement bonus until you got a +10 total.
So after looking through the core book I find a couple parts where your wrong.
Seeking while it doesn't say that it applies it's enhancement to the ammunition obviously effects the ammunition.
Magical qualities on a bow are applied to the arrows.
The bonuses granted by a magic bow apply as normal to arrows that have been enhanced with this ability. Only the larger enhancement bonus applies. Duplicate abilities do not stack.
That right there from the arcane archer imbue arrows ability shows me that your arrows are still capped at +10. So that leaves your arrows at +10 max coming off the bow if it has a higher enhancement bonus.
So the flame arrow spell would work, the rest of the stuff on the arrow would not. If you enchant a bow to +10 any enhancements you place on the arrows are meaningless.
Interesting. I appreciate the responses. If you guys could look at the specific chart for Ranged Weapon Magical abilities and how some have a specific note that they transfer their ability to ammunition while others do not....I would be curious if it would change your mind.
Also, Austin, I disagree completely that a bow with the speed and distance properties transfers those to the arrows it fires. Those don't enhance the arrows, they enhance the bow.
@Tribalgeek: The quote from the Arcane Archer's ability doesn't really apply since I'm not double stacking Shock, and if Seeking isn't added towards the arrows enhancement total, then it should all work.
I'm not sure how else to explain it. A +5 Seeking Distance Speed bow is a +10 weapon. A +1 Corrosive Flaming Icy Holy arrow is a +7 weapon. Combined, the bow fires a +5 Seeking Distance Speed Corrosive Flaming Icy-Burst Holy arrow, which is a +16 weapon. You'd need to eliminate abilities or enhancement bonus until you got a +10 total.Any weapon can only have a max of +10 total. Anything going above +10 have some of its abilities "shut off" until it's down at +10 or below.I fully understand that. My question is more of the "what counts towards that +10?" on the arrow itself variety.
It would be a +15 arrow, actually, since the +1 would be cancelled by the +5. Also, if Speed, Distance, and Seeking don't transfer bonuses to the actual ammunition, it would be perfectly square at +10.
I'm not sure how else to explain it. A +5 Seeking Distance Speed bow is a +10 weapon. A +1 Corrosive Flaming Icy Holy arrow is a +7 weapon. Combined, the bow fires a +5 Seeking Distance Speed Corrosive Flaming Icy-Burst Holy arrow, which is a +16 weapon. You'd need to eliminate abilities or enhancement bonus until you got a +10 total.
I don't think I agree. The RAW states that a single weapon cannot have a total effective enhancement of greater than +10. These are essentially two weapons however. The ranged section specifically states that enhancement bonuses from projectile weapons and their ammunition don't stack, nor do like enhancements (a shock arrow fired by a shock longbow still only does +1d6 shock damage).
There's no mechanism provided to adjudicate the OP's situation. Let's assume for a moment that we have an adventurer with a +1 Holy Brilliant Energy bow of Speed. That's +10 right there. Then he happens to come across a stash of simple +1 Flaming Arrows. Do the arrows simply not 'Flame' when fired from his bow? Does his Speed ability stop working? What if the arrows are +5 Distance Seeking Shocking Burst Dragonbane? Are they worthless when fired from his fancy bow? What if the bow is +9 total and the arrows have multiple +1 abilities, does the archer get to choose which does and doesn't apply?
Edit: And I too just noticed that Brilliant Energy isn't a valid example to be on the bow. The premise still stands however. :)
None of this is answered in the rules. They don't say that projectile weapons and ammunition combined cannot exceed +10, only that a single weapon can't. I therefore believe that they can in fact stack, with the specific exceptions that the rules did provide. This is balanced by the fact that magical arrows are EXPENSIVE. They're single-use items, and if you miss there's only a 50% chance of getting to try again.
Interesting. I appreciate the responses. If you guys could look at the specific chart for Ranged Weapon Magical abilities and how some have a specific note that they transfer their ability to ammunition while others do not....I would be curious if it would change your mind.
Also, Austin, I disagree completely that a bow with the speed and distance properties transfers those to the arrows it fires. Those don't enhance the arrows, they enhance the bow.
@Tribalgeek: The quote from the Arcane Archer's ability doesn't really apply since I'm not double stacking Shock, and if Seeking isn't added towards the arrows enhancement total, then it should all work.
Okay let me try this again with a little added bolding.
The bonuses granted by a magic bow apply as normal to arrows that have been enhanced with this ability. Only the larger enhancement bonus applies. Duplicate abilities do not stack.
Also if you look at page 468 of the core rule book you will see a paragraph labeled ranged weapons and ammunition that states the enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with he enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.
@zappohisbane Yes the flaming arrows would simply not flame. With bows and arrows it doesn't matter if it's a +10 or a +9 if the bow is +9 and the arrows are +1 you still don't get the magical enhancement bonus from the arrows just the bow.
So a seeking, distance, speed bow shooting axiomatic holy flaming burst shocking burst arrows... it just seems like it should be wrong. But it appears to be right. I just don't know.
EDIT: To clarify (I was just overwhelmed by the thought initially) seeking distance and speed are considered enhancements to the bow and NOT the ammo it shoots. This is explicit in the magic weapon section. They're not enhancement bonuses and have nothing to do with the stacking of them. They provide an effective enhancement bonus for the purposes of max bonus total, but that's it. It is the bow that shoots farther and faster, but the arrow that flames and shocks. Very interesting
@Tribalgeek: I think you're misunderstanding what they mean by enhancement bonus. All you're showing me is that +5 bow with +3 arrows doesn't give me +8 arrows....the other abilities stack perfectly well. By your definition a +1 Flaming Bow firing +1 Shock arrows wouldn't even fire +1 Fire Shock arrows, which is absolutely wrong.
Magical abilities on weapons ARE NOT enhancement bonuses.
I am gonna say this and then I am done with this thread.
You know this doesn't work, your just trying to make the rules fit what you want to do.
The abilities don't stack. If your gm feels like allowing you to do it so be it, that's their decision, but now it's not allowed by the rules.
@zappohisbane Yes the flaming arrows would simply not flame. With bows and arrows it doesn't matter if it's a +10 or a +9 if the bow is +9 and the arrows are +1 you still don't get the magical enhancement bonus from the arrows just the bow.
Enhancement bonuses are not the same as special abilities, though special abilities have an enhancement bonus equivilent. If you fire a +2 arrow from a +1 bow, you get +2 to hit and damage. They do not stack. If you fire a +1 flaming arrow from a +1 shock bow, you get +1 to hit and damage, deal +1d6 fire and +1d6 electricty.
Again, the rules say that a) single weapons are limited to a max of +10, b) Ranged weapons bestow their abilities on ammunition, but enhancement bonuses do not stack. That's it.
What if I had a +5 Merciful Flaming Frost bow (that's +8), and I use it to fire a +5 Corrosive Thundering Humanbane (also +8) Arrow? The +5's don't stack, so the effective enhancement is currently +11. How do I choose which doesn't apply? And lets assume I was shooting a human, so the bane is still in play. The rules are silent on this.
Since it's obvious that ammunition and their weapons are intended to stack in a limited fashion (there's even a whole prestige class devoted to the idea), why wouldn't they provide this information? The simplest explantion is that they have already given what we need. They told us that the enhancement bonuses don't stack. Therefore everything else does.
I am gonna say this and then I am done with this thread.
You know this doesn't work, your just trying to make the rules fit what you want to do.
The abilities don't stack. If your gm feels like allowing you to do it so be it, that's their decision, but now it's not allowed by the rules.
Actually, I'm almost positive it DOES work. There's no need to take your books and go home. I'm sorry if my last post came off as insulting.
Let me clarify on enhancement bonuses: Enhancement bonuses, which are numerical, do not stack. I know this. A weapon can never have over a +5 enhancement bonus (outside of epic stuff and Bane weapons vs. specific creatures), and I am not trying to make arrows do so. Weapons CAN have up to a +10 bonus in terms of adding special abilities. This is a pricing system. The part that doesn't stack is the numerical bonus, which is why it even makes mention of using the higher one in what you are quoting. Please look at the charts for magical weapons and the footnotes under them, as it will explain your misunderstanding as well my question (and why I think it probably works) regarding Seeking, Distance, Speed, etc.
This actually is a very old question.
yes, they stack. as long as the magical bonuses are DIFFERENT, there's no problems adding them to a bow and arrow combination.
If you have a +5 Holy Shocking burst Flaming bow, and you shoot +1 Corrosive Burst Axiomatic Thundering Burst Freezing Burst Keen arrows, you get all of the effects. The +5 of the bow overrides the +1 of the arrow, but the +5 others and +9 others of the arrows all stack.
If you have a +1 flaming bow shooting +1 flaming arrows, you get +1 flaming, that's it...nothing stacks.
So, yes, archers can be ridiculously powerful. That's also a VERY expensive way to generate a lot of damage. But it does work.
If you cast GMW on the arrows, it will 'replace' up to +4 of the other magic on the weapons, because you can't enchant a single weapon above +10.
But this isn't a single weapon, it's the magic of the bow and the magic of the arrows.
===Aelryinth
A +5 Seeking Distance Speed Bow firing +1 Corrosive Holy Frost arrows in the hands of an arcane archer with the other bonuses you listed would fire +5 Corrosive (+1) Holy (+2) Frost(+1) arrows with Shock (+1), Flaming(+1), or Seeking(+1) (I would rule it's the archer's choice). I don't think you can or should be able to opt to lower the enhancement bonus to take more than one of those. I would rule that the +5 enhancement stays, and that the properties inherent to the arrow can't be replaced by abilities from the bow.
Also, flaming arrow does not specifically call out any equivalency to an enhancement bonus, so it would stack. Your choice would fall to adding either Shock or Seeking under these circumstances, a difference of only a +1 enhancement.
Distance (+1) only modifies the bow, speed (+3) enhances the user, not the arrows. Neither confer any change on the arrow, though I believe distance can be added to arrows, though I can't figure on speed making any sense for ammunition.
This information is all based on my personal interpretation, which I naturally believe to be air tight.
I've never seen it explicetly stated that in PF a combination of ranged weapon and ammunition could carry magic effects of more than +10 equivalent (apparently with proper choice of enchantments up to +19 total) and would be thankful for a link.
I've never seen an official word on which effects to cut (concerning other weapons as well) when you go over the +10 border. I'd leave it to the players.
Sorry guys no. Arrows are NOT weapons. They are ammo for a weapon. You still only get the +10 total, not +10 for the bow and +10 for the arrow, they act as one unit. That is like saying the left side of my long sword is +5 flaming burst and the right side is +3 icyburst, corrosive, bane. So I get em all.
The rules are clear no weapon can breach the +10 limit.Your weapon is a +5 Seeking Brilliant Energy bow. That is the weapon, ammo is a special case but not a weapon in its own right.{ well it would be if ya used it as a melee weapon at the -4) The bow and the arrow work as one weapon, they have the +10 limit like every other weapon.
You know the rule, we know the rule we have been told this about 40 times now, they do not stack over the Max +10 limit total.
Good rule of thumb is the bow overrules the arrow as the bow is the weapon.
Sorry guys no. Arrows are NOT weapons. They are ammo for a weapon. You still only get the +10 total, not +10 for the bow and +10 for the arrow, they act as one unit. That is like saying the left side of my long sword is +5 flaming burst and the right side is +3 icyburst, corrosive, bane. So I get em all.
The rules are clear no weapon can breach the +10 limit.Your weapon is a +5 Seeking Brilliant Energy bow. That is the weapon, ammo is a special case but not a weapon in its own right.{ well it would be if ya used it as a melee weapon at the -4) The bow and the arrow work as one weapon, they have the +10 limit like every other weapon.
You know the rule, we know the rule we have been told this about 40 times now, they do not stack over the Max +10 limit total.
Good rule of thumb is the bow overrules the arrow as the bow is the weapon.
I didn't see this mentioned anywhere in the thread, but I don't think anyone here thinks you can have +20 arrows, except the person who posted immediately before me (while I was typing my response), and that isn't what s/he said explicitly...
Sorry guys no. Arrows are NOT weapons. They are ammo for a weapon. You still only get the +10 total, not +10 for the bow and +10 for the arrow, they act as one unit. That is like saying the left side of my long sword is +5 flaming burst and the right side is +3 icyburst, corrosive, bane. So I get em all.
The rules are clear no weapon can breach the +10 limit.Your weapon is a +5 Seeking Brilliant Energy bow. That is the weapon, ammo is a special case but not a weapon in its own right.{ well it would be if ya used it as a melee weapon at the -4) The bow and the arrow work as one weapon, they have the +10 limit like every other weapon.
You know the rule, we know the rule we have been told this about 40 times now, they do not stack over the Max +10 limit total.
Good rule of thumb is the bow overrules the arrow as the bow is the weapon.
That's how I thought about stacking to break +10 too, but Aelrynth sounds quite certain, so maybe he comes up with something.
As I said, I'd leave the effects to cut to the players, but if a clear rule was necessary I'd rather have the ammunition's properties overrule the weapon's - after all the opponent is hit by the ammunition, and it's generally more useful to be able to use special ammunition with your primary bow to get certain effects (in doubt I tend towards the most player friendly solution).
Just to sum up quickly what I am really asking as their seems to be considerable confusion:
No one is claiming that the numerical enhancement bonuses of arrows and bows stack. We know they don't.
I am not asking if properties SPECIFICALLY MARKED in the ranged weapons magical abilities list as transferring to the ammunition stack above +10. I'm really not looking to go THAT far down the rules rabbit-hole.
Here is the actual situation:
My bow is +5 Holy Corrosive Frost Seeking. +5 transfers to the arrow. Holy transfers to the arrow (we're at +7). Corrosive transfers to the arrow (+8 for those scoring at home). Frost transfers to the arrow (+9 now). Seeking is NOT marked as one of the abilities that transfers to the arrow, it is a property of the bow.
Arcane Archer 3 gives me the Shock ability on arrows I fire (Now the arrows are effectively +10).
All I am trying to clarify is to make sure I'm interpreting this correctly, and that I still benefit from Seeking when I fire my bow. I believe I do by the way the chart on page 469 of the Core Rulebook separates special abilities that bestow their powers on ammunition from those that do not.
All I am trying to clarify is to make sure I'm interpreting this correctly, and that I still benefit from Seeking when I fire my bow. I believe I do by the way the chart on page 469 of the Core Rulebook separates special abilities that bestow their powers on ammunition from those that do not.
If Seeking only affects bows and not arrows, then yes, you are in the clear. The AA adds his shock, and doesn't have to choose between shock and seeking. I don't have my CRB with me, and it's one of two books I don't have the PDF for. For some reason I'm not as good at finding things on the PFRD as I am in the hardback.
Cheers.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/weapons.html
Scroll down a tiny bit for the table on ranged weapon special abilities. Footnote 2 of that table is the one I am referring to. Seeking is also described on that page a little further down.
Okay I decided to come back as things seem to have become a bit more rational, and a bit more clear.
As seekerofshadowlight pointed out bows and arrows are not separate weapons they are one.
While seeking doesn't transfer to the arrows as the ability does not need to. It still has a + value in this case a +1.
You are still ignoring the text from the arcane archers imbue arrows ability though. This is really going to come down to how your dm decides to interpret all of this. Should it work by raw no, could it work sure, because the rules are vague enough and worded so that your dm could side with you.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/weapons.html
Scroll down a tiny bit for the table on ranged weapon special abilities. Footnote 2 of that table is the one I am referring to. Seeking is also described on that page a little further down.
Excellent find. Your setup is air tight. I never would have noticed the clause in the fine print.
Why did you even question yourself?
EDIT: Ah. This:
"At 3rd level, every nonmagical arrow fired by an arcane archer gains one of the following elemental themed weapon qualities: flaming, frost, or shock."
The AA won't be adding shock to the arrow if it's already magical.
You are still ignoring the text from the arcane archers imbue arrows ability though. This is really going to come down to how your dm decides to interpret all of this. Should it work by raw no, could it work sure, because the rules are vague enough and worded so that your dm could side with you.
Imbue Arrow doesn't seem to have any contradictory text.
Has there been a FAQ on the specific question of whether the combination of a weapon and its ammo can combine to deliver an attack with a total of more than +10 equivalent magic?
I have always assumed that to be the case, and I do think that's a reasonable thing to assume since to rule otherwise essentially says that a bow user can gain huge advantages to attacks when compared to a melee weapon user.
Even if RAW allows this, just for the purpose of maintaining some remote semblance of game balance between characters, I would probably rule that a combined +10 is all that is allowed.
My initial thought for the ruling is that the bow user could choose to use any combination of effects from the bow and arrow that total no more than a +10 equivalent. Of course if this starts to bog down the game while the player attempts to calculate a dozen variations to pick the best one, I would probably just rule that either the bow or the arrow works, but not both.
To me this just reeks of cheese.
Has there been a FAQ on the specific question of whether the combination of a weapon and its ammo can combine to deliver an attack with a total of more than +10 equivalent magic?
The OP is not trying to get over +10, he's calculated it out to exactly +10. It's mostly legitimate, except there are small glitches, like the Enhance Arrows ability requiring the arrows to be non-magical, and then there's seeking/distance/speed which the rules specifically state do NOT transfer over to ammunition. They still have their effect (otherwise, what's the point) but do not count towards enhancing ammo.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/weapons.html
Scroll down a tiny bit for the table on ranged weapon special abilities. Footnote 2 of that table is the one I am referring to. Seeking is also described on that page a little further down.
Excellent find. Your setup is air tight. I never would have noticed the clause in the fine print.
Why did you even question yourself?
Because I'm sometimes wrong, or seeing only what I want to see (notice the OP example of Brilliant Energy on a bow was wrong, as I didn't realize till later that it can only go on ammunition, throw, or melee weapons). I also like to hear what people have to say and how people react, as it prepares me in case my gaming group reacts similarly. I'd rather have rancor on the boards than rancor with friends.
@Tribalgeek: The chart on ranged weapon special abilities specifically states which abilities are conferred to ammunition and which are not. As for the AA ability, Shock is not a duplicate of anything on the bow. The enhancement bonus will only be +5 which is from the bow, and the rest of the abilities of the bow that go to ammunition do so normally (which would not include Seeking). This leads me to a +10 total arrow, and the seeking property from the bow is applied to the attack itself. I feel pretty secure about the fact that this is RAW and isn't abusing anything at all at this point, to tell the truth (I did not earlier, but in seeing the discussion and really looking at all the factors more myself, I am almost 100% certain this is perfectly legal).
I welcome any discussion as to why people might think it is not legal, however, as I am only human.
Okay I decided to come back as things seem to have become a bit more rational, and a bit more clear.
As seekerofshadowlight pointed out bows and arrows are not separate weapons they are one.
While seeking doesn't transfer to the arrows as the ability does not need to. It still has a + value in this case a +1.
You are still ignoring the text from the arcane archers imbue arrows ability though. This is really going to come down to how your dm decides to interpret all of this. Should it work by raw no, could it work sure, because the rules are vague enough and worded so that your dm could side with you.
More rational? I think you mean one person happened to agree with you, so now you sit here echoing them. In reality all the evidence says you're wrong. How can you in one sentence use the term RAW but then go on to say it's worded vaguely? Those are antagonistic sentiments.
What part of the imbue arrow text is being ignored by the way?
Understandable. I did edit my earlier post though. Notice how Enhance Arrows only affects non-magical ammunition. You'd have to go ahead and have Shock put on the arrows.
You are still ignoring the text from the arcane archers imbue arrows ability though. This is really going to come down to how your dm decides to interpret all of this. Should it work by raw no, could it work sure, because the rules are vague enough and worded so that your dm could side with you.Imbue Arrow doesn't seem to have any contradictory text.
If you look at the text from the class I quoted earlier. Which I just realized I titled wrong, its from the Enhance Arrows special ability not the imbue arrows, that's my bad, but the point still stands. The enhancements don't stack. My way of thinking is that it applies to the whole ability not just the +1.
Also Sylvanite AA3 gives you +1 Shocking not just shocking. Unless your just ignoring that +1 since it definitely doesn't stack.
I still stand by that this doesn't stack, and I think most gms will agree, but with everything that's a rules interpretation unless paizo steps up and rules one way or another it's completely up to your gm, and even after paizo steps up and rules on it, it will still be up to your gm. So just ask your gm his ruling on it.
All of the arrows I use ARE nonmagical until they are fired. They get their magic only from the bow and from the Enhance Arrows ability. (Though that may actually cancel out stacking on the Flame Arrow spell...which is another whole can of worms since Flame Arrow does not offer a save or SR and doesn't overcome DR as magical or anything like that)
@Tribalgeek: We all take turns GMing and come to decisions as a group on rules issues. I'm trying to figure out the ACTUAL right and wrong of the issue so that no rulings are even needed, really.
I am ignoring the +1 as I know that numerical enhancement bonuses do not stack. The part that you quoted and also bolded later on specifically applies to only the numerical bonuses.
You are still ignoring the text from the arcane archers imbue arrows ability though. This is really going to come down to how your dm decides to interpret all of this. Should it work by raw no, could it work sure, because the rules are vague enough and worded so that your dm could side with you.Imbue Arrow doesn't seem to have any contradictory text.If you look at the text from the class I quoted earlier. Which I just realized I titled wrong, its from the Enhance Arrows special ability not the imbue arrows, that's my bad, but the point still stands. The enhancements don't stack. My way of thinking is that it applies to the whole ability not just the +1.
Also Sylvanite AA3 gives you +1 Shocking not just shocking. Unless your just ignoring that +1 since it definitely doesn't stack.
I still stand by that this doesn't stack, and I think most gms will agree, but with everything that's a rules interpretation unless paizo steps up and rules one way or another it's completely up to your gm, and even after paizo steps up and rules on it, it will still be up to your gm. So just ask your gm his ruling on it.
The (what I think is ) relevant portion of AA states:
The bonuses granted by a magic bow apply as normal to arrows that have been enhanced with this ability. Only the larger enhancement bonus applies. Duplicate abilities do not stack.
So if a level 10 AA had a +4 seeking speed distance bow and shot his arrows, they would become +4 seeking distance speed shocking burst holy arrows. The 4 is greater than the 1 and it states that only the larger enhancement applies, it would only apply distance once as it states that duplicates do not stack. Since speed is not applied to ammunition but only affects the bow, there is no breach of a +10 total.
Sylvanite this is where we disagree, and where the nuts and bolts of the issue comes from. If the enhancements don't stack rule is just for the +1-+5 then your good to go. If it means the +1-+5 and the abilities then they do not.
Your really not going to get a ruling without an official person stepping up and saying so, because as you can tell from this thread the decision is split.
All of the arrows I use ARE nonmagical until they are fired. They get their magic only from the bow and from the Enhance Arrows ability. (Though that may actually cancel out stacking on the Flame Arrow spell...which is another whole can of worms since Flame Arrow does not offer a save or SR and doesn't overcome DR as magical or anything like that)
If you have a +5 Seeking Brilliant Energy (Edit: Speed/Distance) bow firing a +1 Corrosive Flaming Icy Holy arrow...
The way you've worded your original question defies what you're saying now. At this point I'm assuming at least a level 9 arcane archer (to gain Holy on a non-magical arrow). This may alter my interpretation.
A +5 Seeking (+1) Speed (+3) Distance (+1) longbow firing non-magical arrows that are enhanced through class features will have +5 (from the bow) Shocking, Flaming, or Icy Burst (+2) Distance (+1) Holy (+2) arrows. Normally, Distance does not carry over, but the class feature specifically calls this out. This would be your closest set up to the original. Corrisive will not fit, because the Burst effect replaces the 3rd level ability and makes that a +2 bonus instead of a +1. I would personally house rule that you could choose to add two energies instead of taking the crit bonus if you wanted, as it works out to the same enhancement bonus, but it is not supported by RAW.
Very close.
You are still ignoring the text from the arcane archers imbue arrows ability though. This is really going to come down to how your dm decides to interpret all of this. Should it work by raw no, could it work sure, because the rules are vague enough and worded so that your dm could side with you.Imbue Arrow doesn't seem to have any contradictory text.If you look at the text from the class I quoted earlier. Which I just realized I titled wrong, its from the Enhance Arrows special ability not the imbue arrows, that's my bad, but the point still stands. The enhancements don't stack. My way of thinking is that it applies to the whole ability not just the +1.
Also Sylvanite AA3 gives you +1 Shocking not just shocking. Unless your just ignoring that +1 since it definitely doesn't stack.
I still stand by that this doesn't stack, and I think most gms will agree, but with everything that's a rules interpretation unless paizo steps up and rules one way or another it's completely up to your gm, and even after paizo steps up and rules on it, it will still be up to your gm. So just ask your gm his ruling on it.
I think you are confused on how enhancement bonuses "stack." You don't add them, but the higher one overrides the lower. Simplified example: a +2 bow firing a +1 arrow will fire +2 arrows. A +2 flaming bow firing +1 frost arrows will fire +2 flaming frost arrows.
I have always been under the impression that enhancement bonuses come first, and abilities carry over second to that, though I've never seen anything that supported it. It's just been something we always did. EDIT: And nothing can go above +10, period.
Sorry. The OP of the thread was a hypothetical EXTREME case of arrow stacking. It didn't really have to do with Arcane Archer, just the way arrows and bows interact. The question still stands: Does a +5 Speed-Distance-Seeking bow firing a +1 Flaming-Shock-Icy-Corrosive-Holy-Axiomatic arrow work with everything "firing on all cylinders"? I believe that because of the way arrows and bows interact with regards to certain magical abilities, it would all work.
The Arcane Archer part has to do with my specific character and is an offshoot of the principles behind the above scenario. I'll go into further detail:
My character's build is Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Archer 4. The only enhancement on his arrows from AA is Shock. His bow is +1 Holy Corrosive Icy Seeking (using Greater Magic Weapon to make it a +5 bow). Basically, I believe that Seeking does not apply to the effective enhancement total of the arrow, thus allowing room for Shock to be on the arrow without a problem.
Nope got that clear Fog, whole discussion has been about if a bow totaling up to +5 enchanment +4 abilities can use arrows with abilities that will put the total bonus over +10.
Sorry. The OP of the thread was a hypothetical EXTREME case of arrow stacking. It didn't really have to do with Arcane Archer, just the way arrows and bows interact. The question still stands: Does a +5 Speed-Distance-Seeking bow firing a +1 Flaming-Shock-Icy-Corrosive-Holy-Axiomatic arrow work with everything "firing on all cylinders"? I believe that because of the way arrows and bows interact with regards to certain magical abilities, it would all work.
The Arcane Archer part has to do with my specific character and is an offshoot of the principles behind the above scenario. I'll go into further detail:
My character's build is Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Archer 4. The only enhancement on his arrows from AA is Shock. His bow is +1 Holy Corrosive Icy Seeking (using Greater Magic Weapon to make it a +5 bow). Basically, I believe that Seeking does not apply to the effective enhancement total of the arrow, thus allowing room for Shock to be on the arrow without a problem.
And you're right.
THIS WORKS!
Seeking, speed, and distance, when applied to a bow do not confer this property onto their ammunition, and thus do not count against the +10 enhancement cap. Were this not the case, what would be the purpose of the footnote to differentiate between those that confer to ammunition and those that do not?
Does a +5 Speed-Distance-Seeking bow firing a +1 Flaming-Shock-Icy-Corrosive-Holy-Axiomatic arrow work with everything "firing on all cylinders"?
No. By my calculations, you'd fire a +2 Flaming Shock Icy Corrosive Holy Axiomatic arrow. The enhancement can't be above a +10 total, and the bow normally WOULD transfer it's +5, but can't. If it wouldn't pass on the additional +1, it would do nothing.
The Arcane Archer part has to do with my specific character and is an offshoot of the principles behind the above scenario. I'll go into further detail:
My character's build is Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Archer 4. The only enhancement on his arrows from AA is Shock. His bow is +1 Holy Corrosive Icy Seeking (using Greater Magic Weapon to make it a +5 bow). Basically, I believe that Seeking does not apply to the effective enhancement total of the arrow, thus allowing room for Shock to be on the arrow without a problem.
I don't know about how Greater Magic Weapon interacts with weapons that would go higher than +10. I would rule that with GMW, you only have a +4 Holy Corrosive Icy Seeking bow, and that would affect your calculations enough to help get the Shock property.
Seeking, speed, and distance, when applied to a bow do not confer this property onto their ammunition, and thus do not count against the +10 enhancement cap. Were this not the case, what would be the purpose of the footnote to differentiate between those that confer to ammunition and those that do not?
However in the case of the arcane archer, Seeking DOES apply directly to ammunition through the enhance arrows feature, so it is somewhat relevant to point that out. It CAN cause this theory-craft problems depending on the route you take to get these super-arrows.
Does a +5 Speed-Distance-Seeking bow firing a +1 Flaming-Shock-Icy-Corrosive-Holy-Axiomatic arrow work with everything "firing on all cylinders"?No. By my calculations, you'd fire a +2 Flaming Shock Icy Corrosive Holy Axiomatic arrow. The enhancement can't be above a +10 total, and the bow normally WOULD transfer it's +5, but can't. If it wouldn't pass on the additional +1, it would do nothing.
I don't know about how Greater Magic Weapon interacts with weapons that would go higher than +10. I would rule that with GMW, you only have a +4 Holy Corrosive Icy Seeking bow, and that would affect your calculations enough to help get the Shock property.The Arcane Archer part has to do with my specific character and is an offshoot of the principles behind the above scenario. I'll go into further detail:
My character's build is Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Archer 4. The only enhancement on his arrows from AA is Shock. His bow is +1 Holy Corrosive Icy Seeking (using Greater Magic Weapon to make it a +5 bow). Basically, I believe that Seeking does not apply to the effective enhancement total of the arrow, thus allowing room for Shock to be on the arrow without a problem.
Bah. I messed up my hypothetical extreme: I meant to say +5 Speed Distance Seeking Bow and +1 Holy Corrosive Shock Flaming arrows. That should land you at +10 total on the arrows while still allowing the speed distance and seeking functions of the bow.
How would a +5 Holy Corrosive Icy Seeking bow be above +10? +5 from GMW, +1 corrosive, +1 icy, +1 seeking, +2 holy only gets to +10.
I'm not sure where you're getting that with AA the Seeking ability does apply directly to ammunition?
Bah. I messed up my hypothetical extreme: I meant to say +5 Speed Distance Seeking Bow and +1 Holy Corrosive Shock Flaming arrows. That should land you at +10 total on the arrows while still allowing the speed distance and seeking functions of the bow.
Yes.
How would a +5 Holy Corrosive Icy Seeking bow be above +10? +5 from GMW, +1 corrosive, +1 icy, +1 seeking, +2 holy only gets to +10.
That was my error. I was mentally adding the +1 that was already there to the +5 from the spell, even though it doesn't carry.
I'm not sure where you're getting that with AA the Seeking ability does apply directly to ammunition?
Enhance Arrow specifically says that it imbues the ability on the arrow fired, not the bow used to fire it. Unless there's an errata, then the arrow has to factor in the enhancement equivalency.
EDIT: Because it isn't the Seeking property it gains, it's the Distance property.
Ahhh. Ok. Arcane Archers never get Seeking as part of the Enhance Arrows ability. They get a special ability called "Seeker Arrow" that is a standard action which functions a limited amount of times per day. It's not any kind of actual enhancement on the bow or arrow, just an ability. (And a crappy one at that compared to just always having the Seeking ability at the price of a +1 enhancement on a bow....which is why Elritch Knight is better for a magical archer than actually going past 3rd level of AA....the abilities they get really aren't anything special after Imbue Arrow...plus you lose more casting.)
Edit: Just saw your edit. Yeah, if you went high enough in Arcane Archer things would start to get wonky with the stacking of arrows and bows due to all the bonuses you get on arrows from Enhance Arrow. See above paragraph and add this to another reason to dislike AA past level 3.
Per my understanding of the rules, your bow is legal - the Seeking property of the bow is not passed to the arrow, so doesn't count against its +10 limit. I'd let it play at my table.
Per my understanding of the rules, your bow is legal - the Seeking property of the bow is not passed to the arrow, so doesn't count against its +10 limit. I'd let it play at my table.
That's my opinion, too, but I'm not sure it's the same as your's concerning the statement's consequences. As I understand footnote 2, the only time a seeking enchantment for a bow is useful is when using the bow as an improvised thrown weapon. You want a seeking arrow? Enchant the ammunition.
Sylvanite this is where we disagree, and where the nuts and bolts of the issue comes from. If the enhancements don't stack rule is just for the +1-+5 then your good to go. If it means the +1-+5 and the abilities then they do not.
Your really not going to get a ruling without an official person stepping up and saying so, because as you can tell from this thread the decision is split.
I am pretty sure everyone understands that rule is just for the +1-+5 and not the abilities.
Now i agree with most people here that since the speed and distance quality affect the bow and don't transfer to the arrow, your attack is very legal. But i want to add that i think that a +5 axiomatic holy feybane bow that is firing +1 humanbane, acidic and flaming burst arrows, gets all of the abilities (or should if the RAW is exactly as people have said)
Per my understanding of the rules, your bow is legal - the Seeking property of the bow is not passed to the arrow, so doesn't count against its +10 limit. I'd let it play at my table.That's my opinion, too, but I'm not sure it's the same as your's concerning the statement's consequences. As I understand footnote 2, the only time a seeking enchantment for a bow is useful is when using the bow as an improvised thrown weapon. You want a seeking arrow? Enchant the ammunition.
The example in the description of the Seeking property specifically uses a bow. Even though it seems like it's affecting the ammunition, it's really the same thing as Distance in that the bow is firing the arrow differently. I'm pretty sure that's why it is NOT one of the enhancements that is specifically transferred to the ammunition. I understand where you're coming from with that, though. However, I think that by RAW your interpretation would be a houserule (which are fine).