Sorry for (yet-another) newbie question but I can't get past a logic check here.
Do all large creatures take up 4 squares on a grid? Do you just center then on an intersection?
I suppose for a 10 ft tall massive troll that makes some sense but what about a large wolf? It seems he would make more sense being 10 ft long but only 5 ft wide and 5ft tall.I've tried referring to the spell area charts in the PFCRB but they really don't work to show the amount of space creatures occupy or worst their reach.
Obviously this works for anything larger than a medium creature, but I can scale the answer to fit :)
Large monsters take up 4 squares. As long as no part of the miniature is over the line they are placed correctly. The Large(long) creatures such as large wolves also take up 4 squares, even though it is not logical. It is done that way for ease of play.
yea "Easy of play" Until you're in a 5ft wide hallway
You can find older figures that are more realistic, but you really have to search for them. Now they just make them all the same size. I guess manufacturing less bases is cheaper.
Actually, the physical figurine is only 2x1 squares, but the book is so damn vague on this subject that our DM has resorted to us calling all "Large creatures" 2x2 and leaving the little guy straddling the intersection.
Well by the rules it is 2X2(probably because of figurines), but back in the day they had 2X1 figures.
The problem of 2x1 figures is that it implies facing, which Pathfinder does not have. Obviously, on a 2x1 figure, there are a front/back and sides. But, since there are no facing rules in Pathfinder, how do you handle obviously being on the sides of something? This is the reason for all large creatures being 2x2.
Large (long) and large (tall) are usually distinguished by their reach. (Long) creatures usually have the reach of a creature one size category smaller....usually.
In the end, it basically comes down to "space" and "size" are abstractions. The space a creature occupies doesn't directly correlate to the volume of the creature, but rather the amount of area an actively moving creature would fill, especially in combat. A halfling (about 3 feet tall and about 30 pounds) and a human (just under 6 feet, 230) occupy the same space on a grid, though obviously they are not the same volume. So your troll and dire wolf both tend to dominate the same chunk of real estate during a combat, and that's what matters.
yea "Easy of play" Until you're in a 5ft wide hallway
It's still not complicated unless you use snap together 3d walls and such. Most people use battle maps or expo markers, which i use as well. In the case of drawn out lines it's easy enough to have the large creature half into a wall, there's rules for squeezing.
I tend to go by what Mauril described, using both the monster's size and reach to see how much space it takes up.
So for example, a heavy horse has a space value of 10 ft. with a reach of 5 ft.
Compare to an Ogre, which is also has a space of 10 ft., but has a reach of 10 ft..
yea "Easy of play" Until you're in a 5ft wide hallwayIt's still not complicated unless you use snap together 3d walls and such. Most people use battle maps or expo markers, which i use as well. In the case of drawn out lines it's easy enough to have the large creature half into a wall, there's rules for squeezing.
I use 3rd terrain and a battle grid. For the small corridors, the fig is usually just balanced on both walls - this serves as a reminder to the GM that they are "squeezed" and to apply the appropriate penalties.
wicked84, as you are a self-described newbie, I guess you wouldn't remember the days of D&D 3.0, when instead of a "Space" figure, each monster had a "Face" figure, in two dimensions. For example, a horse would have a "Face" stat of "5 ft. by 10 ft."
When Wizards of the Coast revised the rules to produce D&D 3.5, they decided to make all monsters "square," thereby creating problems, such as the one you mention, with the five-foot-wide hallway. I disliked this change for that reason, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one.
(Yes, I understand the arguments for "square" monsters, but as those have already been made in this thread, I won't bother repeating them.)
Remember, it's not just the size of the creature, it's how much personal space it has. An average human isn't 5 feet long or wide, but he takes up a 5' square because he's moving around and swinging his arms and stuff. So even though a wolf is skinny, it's still turning around, biting at people, doging, ducking, dipping, diving, and dodging.
Remember, it's not just the size of the creature, it's how much personal space it has. An average human isn't 5 feet long or wide, but he takes up a 5' square because he's moving around and swinging his arms and stuff. So even though a wolf is skinny, it's still turning around, biting at people, doging, ducking, dipping, diving, and dodging.
This is a good point, actually. I never even thought about situations involving the animal turning around. If a horse were to only take up 2 squares, then how would turning around work?
EDIT: Example omitted. Was trying to show that a horse's front side would have to swing through two squares to accomplish a 90 degree turn...
With a square you can just assume that the animal turns around within its square... I feel dumb now.
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Yeah making everything into squares was to speed up play a bit and standardize things in the game for the most part and was IC's justified as that space being what the creature needs to fight effectively.
Personally I have the belief that there is a real solution. What is it you might ask? Stop having 5' wide hallways where there are large creatures or large creatures where you have 5' wide hallways. I'm not saying that to be mean, just trying to get people to think ahead.
(To DM's) Why are there big hulking monsters roaming around in compact little hallways? Why would they suffer cramming themselves into tight quarters? Just make the hall ways bigger and don't worry about it so much. You'd think most races would make a hallway where it was comfortable to walk through unless it was exceptionally short or needed to be narrow for some reason after all. Sure some times cramped quarters make for fun obstacles for the party but most creatures probably wouldn't willingly start fights where they'd have a tactical disadvantage.
(To PC's) Your mount/animal companion/eidolons/whatever isn't always going to get to fight, especially if it's large or bigger and you shouldn't expect to always be able to drag it everywhere as that's very unreasonable. It's a fact of the game, just like occasionally the wizard won't have the right spell or the archer can't get out of melee some times your special thing just isn't appropriate for the situation. Get creative and make sure you can deal with these situations and you'll be a much better player for it!
Ten foot fat mounts eat up so much room, the main way they ease play is by discouraging players from bringing their mounts to combat.
Does size really matter? I mean c'mon...right guys!
Only asking because I just cannot seem to find it:
I understand the table on pg 195 of the core rule book. But, where in the raw does it actually say that a space value of "10ft" means a 10x10 space on the grid?? Or say that if a space is listed then that is assumed to be a square space unless otherwise noted??
I totally agree that that's what it means, but I don't actually see it in the rules anywhere. The "large (long)" entry in that table is incredibly misleading for DMs that have played rule sets that do include creatures that are 10x5. Again, just looking for a raw or pathfinder staff forum post that technically defines this.
Along those same lines and much less important, why does that pg 195 table 8-4 use the "(long)" and "(tall)" designations? I don't think ive ever once seen those terms used in the Stat block of anything in PF books.
Along those same lines and much less important, why does that pg 195 table 8-4 use the "(long)" and "(tall)" designations? I don't think ive ever once seen those terms used in the Stat block of anything in PF books.
While the terms "long" and "tall" aren't used in a creatures stat block, you can see they still apply. Like if you see a Large creature with only 5' reach, you would know that is a Large(long) creature instead of the Large(tall) creature.
I understand the table on pg 195 of the core rule book. But, where in the raw does it actually say that a space value of "10ft" means a 10x10 space on the grid?? Or say that if a space is listed then that is assumed to be a square space unless otherwise noted??
I totally agree that that's what it means, but I don't actually see it in the rules anywhere. The "large (long)" entry in that table is incredibly misleading for DMs that have played rule sets that do include creatures that are 10x5. Again, just looking for a raw or pathfinder staff forum post that technically defines this.
While I can't find it in the core rulebook, Ultimate Combat does have something to say on the matter in the Vehicle section.
Vehicle Size and Space
Vehicles have sizes and spaces different from creature sizes and spaces. Many vehicles are long and thin rather than taking up a space of an equal number of squares per side like creatures do. A wagon, for instance, may take up a 10-by-10-foot square, or may be 10 feet wide and 15 feet or more long. Often one of the shorter sides of the vehicle serves as a vehicle's forward facing.
Only asking because I just cannot seem to find it:
I understand the table on pg 195 of the core rule book. But, where in the raw does it actually say that a space value of "10ft" means a 10x10 space on the grid?? Or say that if a space is listed then that is assumed to be a square space unless otherwise noted??
You're right that the term "space" doesn't seem to be defined, but you can work out what it means indirectly. For instance, under Squeezing it says:
Squeezing: In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn't as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.
When a Large creature (which normally takes up 4 squares) squeezes into a space that's 1 square wide, the creature's miniature figure occupies 2 squares, centered on the line between the 2 squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into.
So "space" refers to width, at least when it comes to squeezing, and Large creatures take up 4 squares.
(Long) and (tall) are archaic terms that we just haven't phased out yet. The only things they describe is whether a creature has stunted Reach or not. When looking at a stat-block, how do you determine if any given monster is (long) or (tall)? You see if its Reach is stunted. It's not well-defined, it's self-referential and doesn't have a practical purpose that couldn't be accomplished with a line similar to "some creatures, usually those that do not walk upright, have reduced Reach."
It's not even standardized! Large, Huge and Gargantuan (long) creatures have their Reach reduced by 5 feet, then Colossal creatures have it reduced by 10. That offends my sense of consistency.
Gripe over.
So "space" refers to width, at least when it comes to squeezing, and Large creatures take up 4 squares.Squeezing: In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn't as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.
When a Large creature (which normally takes up 4 squares) squeezes into a space that's 1 square wide, the creature's miniature figure occupies 2 squares, centered on the line between the 2 squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into.
Thanks for pointing this wording out - I guess this does give an obscure and lonely raw ruling on it. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy and missing some magical page of size explanation.
It's just kind of funny to me that the game authors refer to "space" as the carried-over format of " 10ft" and not "10'x10'". I realize this would assume a square grid, but the entire combat section uses that as a default anyway. Maybe they want the interpretation to be open.
Anyway, thank you guys for replies. Gripe over here as well.
*Casts Raise Thread*
I played a scene a week ago in which my group fought a battle in a lake. My wizard summoned a dire shark to add to the fun,...
dire shark: gargantuan, space: 20, reach: 20.
"a megalodon is 60ft. long and weights 100,000lbs.
Hmm...I laid out a few 3x5 index cards to represent 60' length. Pretty big monster. Another player put out a dolphin plushie that was about the right size.
My wizard just made another level, and can now summon Elder Elementals. Some of them are pretty huge; an elder fire elemental is "Huge: 15 space and 15 reach. "an elder fire elemental is 40 feet long and weighs 12lbs."
So...for game purposes, we're sticking with the Space, Reach & Threatened Area templates? Should we assume that fire elemental HAS that size, but the area the players need to be concerned with is the 15x15...?