WotC IP but if you want him in your personal game then he's worth including.
If you want a canonical demon lord that most resembles him character wise I'd suggest either Abraxas (Magic and Plotting) or Socothbenoth (Sex and Lust) since Graz'zt has both of those traits in spades.
If so, with whom could I replace him?
Socothbenoth (Lords of Chaos) has made me forget about the six-fingered freakshow; I'd use him.
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Socothbenoth is certainly the intended "stand in" for Graz'zt. Shax might also work, as would Abraxas. But Graz'zt himself? As folks have mentioned... he's owned by WotC. He's not even based on a real-world myth (he was invented by Gary Gygax pretty much 100%), so we can't even re-invent him based on mythology (which is what we're mostly doing with demon lords like Pazuzu, Lamashtu, Baphomet, and several others).
And as far as I know Graz'zt was the hubby ;) of Iggwilv... Baba Yagas adopted Daughter Natasha... of Tashas Hideous Laughter fame...
If I have my "Mythology" correct... :)
And as far as I know Graz'zt was the hubby ;) of Iggwilv... Baba Yagas adopted Daughter Natasha... of Tashas Hideous Laughter fame...
If I have my "Mythology" correct... :)
I don't think "hubby" is the correct term.
Plaything, maybe.
And as far as I know Graz'zt was the hubby ;) of Iggwilv... Baba Yagas adopted Daughter Natasha... of Tashas Hideous Laughter fame...
If I have my "Mythology" correct... :)
I don't think "hubby" is the correct term.
Plaything, maybe.
Your avatar's bias is showing Lilith ;p
Graz'zt is/was Iggwilv's favorite demonic boy-toy. May have been a child of Pale Night and/or Asmodeus depending on edition.
I'm using Graz'zt as one of several big demon/devil bads in my campaign (on hiatus) but it's a custom world. Graz'zt is certainly my favorite of the demon lords. He has such style! And his actual design is awesome.
Ahh, Graz'zt. One of my favorite of D&D glorious bastards.
Dude, I would so sleep with Graz'zt. Er, smite. I mean smite! ...um, yeah.
Seriously though, if you're staying canon to Golarion I'd follow Mr. Jacob's recommendation: Socothbenoth would be a great stand-in.
Also keep in mind that Graz'zt thinks that turn-about is fair play and has kept Iggwilv imprisoned for a period of time (along with a FR god or two).
They are pretty non-canonical these days but the Gord the Rogue books also have a ton of Graz'zt, Iuz and Iggwilv "goodness" although they tend to be overwhelmed later on by Tharizdun.
Speaking of which, I know that Paizo has reprinted some of EGG's novels is there plans on rereleasing the Gord novels? or are the rights issues too murky?
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Also keep in mind that Graz'zt thinks that turn-about is fair play and has kept Iggwilv imprisoned for a period of time (along with a FR god or two).
They are pretty non-canonical these days but the Gord the Rogue books also have a ton of Graz'zt, Iuz and Iggwilv "goodness" although they tend to be overwhelmed later on by Tharizdun.
Speaking of which, I know that Paizo has reprinted some of EGG's novels is there plans on rereleasing the Gord novels? or are the rights issues too murky?
I think that ACE/Penguin still hold the rights to the Gord Novels... I saw a recent edition in a local B&N less than 2 years ago
Aren't the Gord novels against several international torture/illegal warfare treaties?
Since when is purple prose against the law ;)
May have been a child of Pale Night and/or Asmodeus depending on edition.
I know the Pale Night connection from FCI, but can someone tell me more about the Asmodeus connection from, presumably, earlier than 3rd edition?
I was never happy w/ the Pale Night connection, but making Asmodeus the sire changes everything.
May have been a child of Pale Night and/or Asmodeus depending on edition.I know the Pale Night connection from FCI, but can someone tell me more about the Asmodeus connection from, presumably, earlier than 3rd edition?
I was never happy w/ the Pale Night connection, but making Asmodeus the sire changes everything.
The Asmodeus connection is 4E; old Azzy is Grazzy's dad. Grazzy was supposed to be Azzy's ticket to power in the Abyss, but Grazzy decided he liked ruling in the Abyss, IIRC.
I'm bringing Graz'zt into my Golarian campaign, Iggwilv too. But if you want to bring him in but don't want to use his WOTC name, in Green Ronon's Hordes of the Abyss (written by Erik Mona), it mentions a demon lord named Vaz'zht, which seems pretty close to Graz'zt.
Interesting enough I suspect that Verin (Graz'zt's Major Domo) would actually be useable by Paizo as he's somewhat based upon a demon from the renaissance named Verrine. His actual description and storyline would have to be jettisoned (much like a Paizo Demogorgon couldn't be the D&D Demogorgon) but they could use his name.
Any resemblance in names between Verin and Vuron is purely coincidental ;)
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Interesting enough I suspect that Verin (Graz'zt's Major Domo) would actually be useable by Paizo as he's somewhat based upon a demon from the renaissance named Verrine. His actual description and storyline would have to be jettisoned (much like a Paizo Demogorgon couldn't be the D&D Demogorgon) but they could use his name.
Any resemblance in names between Verin and Vuron is purely coincidental ;)
That's actually two reasons why we wouldn't use him, honestly. We'd have to go with his mythological name, first of all, and as you point out we'd have to build him an entirely different personality and niche in the Abyss. At that point, it's no longer Verin but something entirely else that would only needless confuse folks who chose to use Verin in their home game. For the same reason, we're not doing much with Demogorgon.
The Asmodeus connection is 4E; old Azzy is Grazzy's dad. Grazzy was supposed to be Azzy's ticket to power in the Abyss, but Grazzy decided he liked ruling in the Abyss, IIRC.
Thanks. I'm going to run w/ the Asmodeus + Pale Night traditions from 3e & 4e both.
Aren't the Gord novels against several international torture/illegal warfare treaties?Hey... I like the Gord novels. :(Same here!
Well... not so much the last one, actually.
Is that Come Endless Darkness or Dance of Demons?
Towards the end of the series he started introducing a set of characters that really didn't correspond to established Greyhawk lore and weren't properly introduced like the Demiurge Basilev.
The conclusion was pretty meh as well.
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Aren't the Gord novels against several international torture/illegal warfare treaties?Hey... I like the Gord novels. :(Same here!
Well... not so much the last one, actually.
Is that Come Endless Darkness or Dance of Demons?
Towards the end of the series he started introducing a set of characters that really didn't correspond to established Greyhawk lore and weren't properly introduced like the Demiurge Basilev.
The conclusion was pretty meh as well.
Dance of Demons.
Basically, the more Tharizdun was on stage, the less scary and cool he got. That he was basically just a big dude (a big fat green guy, thanks to the lame cover art) and not some ageless insane Lovecraftian horror was crushingly disappointing to me, to tell the truth). Furthermore, the fact that he basically blew up the world felt more like a petty lash out against the whole way he was ousted out of TSR than a legitimate ending to a series that, up until that point, I quite liked.
My FAVORITE part about the Gord books, it should come as no surprise, were the scenes with the demons, particularly all of the demon war stuff. Good times.
Aren't the Gord novels against several international torture/illegal warfare treaties?Hey... I like the Gord novels. :(Same here!
Well... not so much the last one, actually.
Is that Come Endless Darkness or Dance of Demons?
Towards the end of the series he started introducing a set of characters that really didn't correspond to established Greyhawk lore and weren't properly introduced like the Demiurge Basilev.
The conclusion was pretty meh as well.
Dance of Demons.
** spoiler omitted **
I liked the scene he did Graz'zt introducing his new bestest buddies, Yeenoghu and Kostchtchie to his demonic hordes, and how they went from wildly enthusiastic to just kinda, "Ehhh..." when Kosty showed up.
Hey James, I was wondering how you use Socothbenoth as a demon name when he was in 1e MMII and a couple of Gygax's novels. I think the "alternate spelling" of Socoth-Benoth or Socoth-Benothas is used but the name seems to originate with Gary.
I assume that since it's only a proper name it can't be copyrighted and only trademarked (and WotC probably doesn't have it as a trademark) but wanted to be certain.
Hey James, I was wondering how you use Socothbenoth as a demon name when he was in 1e MMII and a couple of Gygax's novels. I think the "alternate spelling" of Socoth-Benoth or Socoth-Benothas is used but the name seems to originate with Gary.
I assume that since it's only a proper name it can't be copyrighted and only trademarked (and WotC probably doesn't have it as a trademark) but wanted to be certain.
I ain't James but Socothbenoth appears in RW grimoires. See here.
I ain't James but Socothbenoth appears in RW grimoires. See here.Hey James, I was wondering how you use Socothbenoth as a demon name when he was in 1e MMII and a couple of Gygax's novels. I think the "alternate spelling" of Socoth-Benoth or Socoth-Benothas is used but the name seems to originate with Gary.
I assume that since it's only a proper name it can't be copyrighted and only trademarked (and WotC probably doesn't have it as a trademark) but wanted to be certain.
Ahh, thanks my initial search came up with a ton of D&D related stuff so I wasn't aware he was part of an older tradition.
Ahh, thanks my initial search came up with a ton of D&D related stuff so I wasn't aware he was part of an older tradition.I ain't James but Socothbenoth appears in RW grimoires. See here.Hey James, I was wondering how you use Socothbenoth as a demon name when he was in 1e MMII and a couple of Gygax's novels. I think the "alternate spelling" of Socoth-Benoth or Socoth-Benothas is used but the name seems to originate with Gary.
I assume that since it's only a proper name it can't be copyrighted and only trademarked (and WotC probably doesn't have it as a trademark) but wanted to be certain.
Oops-- I linked to Biblical commentary, not a grimoire! Still... Lewis Spence mentions him. Victor Hugo and de Plancy call him "Succor Benoth" as chief of the eunuchs of Hell.
The modern tranliteration in the Bible (2 Kings 17:30) is Sukkoth Benoth.
Sukkoth Benoth is apparently a word meaning "tabernacles or tents of the Creatress." (see here.)
Spence sources Socothbenoth as a demon from Complementum Artis Exorcissiae, which is a demonological tract by one Father Vicecomes.
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Hey James, I was wondering how you use Socothbenoth as a demon name when he was in 1e MMII and a couple of Gygax's novels. I think the "alternate spelling" of Socoth-Benoth or Socoth-Benothas is used but the name seems to originate with Gary.
I assume that since it's only a proper name it can't be copyrighted and only trademarked (and WotC probably doesn't have it as a trademark) but wanted to be certain.
Yup; Socothbenoth is a real-world demon. In fact, many of D&D's demons are real-world demons.
In fact, many of D&D's demons are real-world demons.
I think that's Jack Chick's cue, isn't it? Or is it the 700 Club's?
;)
I liked the scene he did Graz'zt introducing his new bestest buddies, Yeenoghu and Kostchtchie to his demonic hordes, and how they went from wildly enthusiastic to just kinda, "Ehhh..." when Kosty showed up.
Hey, didn't Graz'zt also went and played
Yup; Socothbenoth is a real-world demon. In fact, many of D&D's demons are real-world demons.Hey James, I was wondering how you use Socothbenoth as a demon name when he was in 1e MMII and a couple of Gygax's novels. I think the "alternate spelling" of Socoth-Benoth or Socoth-Benothas is used but the name seems to originate with Gary.
I assume that since it's only a proper name it can't be copyrighted and only trademarked (and WotC probably doesn't have it as a trademark) but wanted to be certain.
I must say this is one thing I really like about Paizo's monster naming policy. You guys seem to use names from real world mythology a lot, which really really appeals to me. I far prefer that to wholly made up new names for monsters/demons/etc. :)
I must say this is one thing I really like about Paizo's monster naming policy. You guys seem to use names from real world mythology a lot, which really really appeals to me. I far prefer that to wholly made up new names for monsters/demons/etc. :)
But, you know, since the distinguished competition never took the free advice, I'd love to see the Cowface Strangler make it into Bestiary 3 . . . ;)