Painlord's What to Expect at a PFS Table

[hogarth]

Winter_Born wrote:

Thinking ahead a bit (in character) is fine, but expecting every player to wield CLW wands and alchemist's fire regardless of characterfulness just to "succeed" in a module, is IMO borderline rude.

It's rude to get huffy about it, but I don't think it's rude to make a helpful suggestion.

[Jiggy]

Winter_Born wrote:

Thinking ahead a bit (in character) is fine, but expecting every player to wield CLW wands and alchemist's fire regardless of characterfulness just to "succeed" in a module, is IMO borderline rude.

If you want to play characters who could go through Pathfinder training and still not think to bring a source of healing with them on their missions, that's fine. Meanwhile, I'll be having fun roleplaying a character who isn't mentally handicapped to the point of putting his own life in unnecessary danger.

[hogarth]

Jiggy wrote:

But just because the rest of us aren't playing mentally handicapped characters doesn't make the suggested guidelines "rude".

...warning, huffiness detected...

[Jiggy]

Edited a bit.

[nosig]

I can still remember many years ago, going thru military training and having the Drill Sgt. in front of the class explaining how to use an atropine auto injector (for the treatment of nerve agent poisoning).

"You will carry this injector in your left breast pocket! 'cause if I come up on your sorry ass while you are twitching on the ground, that is where I am going to look for it. And you know what I'll do if it aint there? I sure as h3$$ aint going to use MINE on you - that's for when my sorry ass is laying twitching on the ground! And you sure aint going to use yours on someone else for the same reason! Pull the injector from HIS pocket. Pop the plastic cap off and punch it into the meat of his thigh. After it injects, shove the needle thru the flap on the shirt pocket you got it from, yeah genius that would be his shirt pocket. Then bend the needle over and leave it hanging there, so the medic or anyone else who comes along will know he's had the injection."

I can see something like this in PF training. "You WLLL carry a potion of CLW in the left vest pocket, so your team can find it!" that's why I liked this line "...he/she should have a Potion of Cure Light Wounds and have the foresight to mention to their traveling companions wherein it might be found on their body...". Took me back to Basic Training...

[Reynard "Rey" Heyerdahl]

With Rey's limited experience, I suggest the following.

As a player

Spoiler:

• Be open minded. Yes you're going to get the CN-so-I-can-be-a-Richard player, or the stick-so-far-up-my-aft-it-tickles-my-tonsils Paladin. (Hopefully) They are the exception, not the norm. Nothing irritates them more than ignoring their antics.
  
• Don't negatively 'help' another player's build. "You should take Power attack, fighters w.o Power attack suck!" doesn't help anyone. "My damage curve seems to be higher than yours, ever thought of taking PA as your next feat?" is more positive.
  
• Be prepared. This varies from expecting to have 'ineffectual' characters at the table, (my rogue took all his all his skill points and has 8 different craft skills! You want me to open what?) to being the sole ranged combatant in the party of fighters. Heck Talyn spent a good amount of time in first steps acid spashing targets, and he's a magus. (We had much more optimised meat shields out there.) Likewise, Rey keeps a potion of mage armor handy so he can fill up space in melee (14 dex, +4 armor + fight defensively = 18 AC. He's not going to hit the broad side of the barn like this, but he can be a flanking buddy)
  
• Be flexible. This goes with be prepared above. If your wizard loves colour spray and you have a sorcerer in the party with it, select another situational spell. If you're the sorcerer and the wizard wants to be stubborn, then just prepare (ha!) yourself to rely on your other spells. If you're playing an archery build and there are no other fighters to get in the way of the BBEG, then be prepared to melee.
  
• Be entertained. For Paizo, the primary purpose of PFS is to sell books. ;-) For the players (and masochists who GM them) the primary purpose is to have fun.*
  
• But not at the expense of others. If you have a half orc in the party, the jokes are going to fly. if the other player is getting upset, stop. It also helps when you can laugh at yourself.
  

From a (now 2nd level!) sorcerer's PoV...

Spoiler:

Watch each other's back. Even the Chels need to survive to report, so you don't have to worry about others.

Improvise adapt and thrive. For we casters, if you have acid splash or ray of frost pick up a flask (or two!) of acid or alchemist's frost. That extra point of damage or other effects might make the difference in combat. Also if you have the strength, a haramaki makes a small, but disembowling resistant, fashion statement.

Be creative. People look at me funny when I trot out snapdragon fireworks. It has specific values. It's an anti-swarm spell, and its range (mixed with the not targeting the BBEG, just where he's standing, effect) makes it conditionally useful.

Get to know your companions (yes, even the Andorans). From my farie godmother (yes I have one, don't ask) I picked up sleep Not the most tactically friendly spell. If I'm travelling with elves, half elves or Andorans, I know I can drop it on a fight with few of my own allies falling (and face it, if the Andorans sleep, at least they're not talking about how great they are)

Live up to expectations. People look to me and scream 'Wizard!' that's my plan. Complete with book in backpack, my walking stick and my spell component pouch. At the same time, I'm not a wizard but I do have spellcraft and knowlege arcana, so I can play the part. Also have a little bit of UMD, but don't rely on me using your happy stick to save your life.

Use the goodies you find along the way. The Lodge expects us to turn everything over like good little pets, and then buy back the stuff with the gold they give us. If I find a potion of cure moderate wounds that's the one that gets drank by the wounded fighter, not the one in my sash. It's a lot easier to report. "Potion bottle, empty" than "I used my potion and brought you one. Can I please buy it back?"

Along those lines, BYoH (Bring Your own Healing) is important. Nothing worse than hoping you have a priest, only to find out that the society stuck you out here with a bunch of rogues. (Well maybe the Paladin sermonizing while he's healing you is close) So have a potion of cure light wounds at least. If you really are stuck with a bunch of rogues, bring two. I'll leave it up to you on where to hide them.

Stuff you won't use. Yeah, I'm planning to get some potions of enlarge person at some point. Not for me, but for the PDF (Poor Dumb Fighter) I might get stuck with in some backwater. Careful though, nothing disappoints cannibals more than when their supersized meal turns out to be full of magical additives.

Discression is the better part of valor. Hey, my buddies and I haven't failed yet. *knocks on wood, or the closest Grand Lodge member's skull, same difference* but I'd much rather be known as "That guy who failed the mission" than "That guy who failed the mission, and died."

*

Spoiler:

Ok, for me it's also therapy. but to each their own. :P

[hogarth]

nosig wrote:

I can see something like this in PF training. "You WLLL carry a potion of CLW in the left vest pocket, so your team can find it!" that's why I liked this line "...he/she should have a Potion of Cure Light Wounds and have the foresight to mention to their traveling companions wherein it might be found on their body...". Took me back to Basic Training...

Now I'm trying to imagine a military run like the Pathfinder Society:

"All right, men. Form up into squads! Let's see... Squad One has three medics and one radio operator and no one has a weapon stronger than a pistol. Squad Two has two rocket launchers, three parachutes and a heavy machine gun but no radio. Sounds good to me. Let's move out!"

;-)

[Sir_Wulf]

hogarth wrote:

"All right, men. Form up into squads! Let's see... Squad One has three medics and one radio operator and no one has a weapon stronger than a pistol. Squad Two has two rocket launchers, three parachutes and a heavy machine gun but no radio. Sounds good to me. Let's move out!"

I always figured that Society internal politics plays a much larger role in determining where Pathfinders are assigned than it would in any rational organization.

"I'm not letting Valsin send MY people off on another fool's errand when I have IMPORTANT tasks for them! Dreng, I know it's 2 am, but I need you to round up a scratch crew to tackle that mission before Valsin gets the chance to put a team together!"

[Sir_Wulf]

I've tried to share Painlord's suggestions with local players and they noticably reduced the learning curve for players new to organized play.

I particularly appreciate Painlord's suggestions when I think of games where I have run tables of players whose characters just weren't ready for the challenges they faced. I remember the 6th-level renger whose regular longbow (NOT composite, masterwork, or magic) was his main mode of offense: He lacked any specialty arrows or unusual materials, but he was saving to eventually buy a better bow...

[nosig]

I to have shaired Painlords suggestions with others (mainly beginners) - but I "softened" it abit.

1st:

1st.
After your characters first mod, he/she should have a Potion of Cure Light Wounds and have the foresight to mention to their traveling companions wherein it might be found on their body. The person ultimately responsible for healing your character is you. (When the character has 2 PA, you should consider getting a Wand of CLW.) Every character should be able to easily stabilize another party member. (Using curing or Heal skill checks or something).
Your character should have a way to deal damage at range: a ranged weapon, scrolls, wand or whatever.
Your character should have a way to deal with swarms. Of course, alchemist flasks are the easiest, but you may want something else. You know and I know that PFS mods are swarming with swarms...find a solution that fits your character.
Your character should have a way to create fire and light. Something like, a few tindertwigs and a sunrod or light spell.
Your character should have a vial of antitoxin.
Your character should have a smokestick/fog effect.
A melee characters should have a back up weapon and spellcasters have a backup spell component pouch/holy symbol in case something happens to the primary.
After 2 chronicles, every character should contribute to group healing...even if it's just handing off a Wand of CLW. Responsibility for your characters healing does *NOT* reside with any player other than yourself. Your character should be able to help in the healing...if the party happens to have a character who actively assumes this role, that’s good, but don’t expect it. Never expect that it is someone else's job to keep your character in the game.

3rd:

At 3rd
You should be able to play your character efficiently with whatever role you choose. You should do something to help the party every round even if it is just using the Aid Another action or casting Guidance. *ALWAYS DO SOMETHING.* Even if it’s guard the back of the party or Ready to attack the first monster that appears. You should able to properly use the Delay and Ready actions to align your character with the actions of others.
If you have a knowledge skill to identify a monster, you should make that roll before you do anything else on your turn.
Melee types: should to have a magic weapon or a way to get their weapon magicked (have oils of Magic Weapon available or scrolls of Magic Weapon and pass them out or know how to use them). Your character should have secondary weapons of cold iron and silver (or primary). Your character should be able to overcome DR to slashing, piercing, and blunt. (my personal favorite is a silvered light mace: silver, bludgeoning, simple weapon as a backup.) I expect you to be able to deal non-lethal damage.
Ranged types: should to have a magic weapon or a way to get their weapon magicked (have oils of Magic Weapon available or scrolls of Magic Weapon and pass them out or know how to use them). Your character should ammo of both cold iron and silver. Your character should have some plan to handle close combat and overcoming DRs to slashing, piercing and blunt.
Caster types: Your character should have the beginnings of a spellcasting library in scroll form so that they can handle some of the different and random situations that might come up. Your character should have a solution to help the party deal with swarms and invisible foes...your character is the best equipped to handle them. Your Characters library should have some spells that scale nicely on a scroll: Comprehend Languages, Endure Elements, Faerie Fire, etc.
You should know how to use your characters basic spells in combat and have the spell descriptions in front of you *before* casting the spell. Your should know how staple spells work: Magic Missle, Glitterdust, Spiritual Hammer, Grease...whatever your characters butter is, be able to spread it. You should know how your characters area of effect spells may be placed...know what a cone looks like and the area effect of a Silence.

5th:

At 5th
Every character should have the ability to fly...even if it's just a potion of fly. Sure, levitate works, so might spider climb. But have something. Nothing is more saddening than watching Thongar the Barbarian sulk because his prey took to the air. A prepped player should have a potion of fly so he could become *THONGAR*, Master of Airborne Pain and Suffering.
Your character should have a way to both breathe and fight underwater. Learn the basics of underwater combat and have a solution ready, at some point you will need this.
Your character should be able to overcome magical darkness, like the effect from a drow or derro.
Your character start building a nice utility scroll/potion collection to handle things that might happen or they could face: Protection from Evil, Lesser Restoration, Remove Blindness, Cure Disease, Restoration, etc. Included in that collection should be elemental protection as well (Resist Energy, Prot Energy) for when you know you're walking into the Dragon's Lair. What else is in your characters collection?

7th:

At 7th
Your character should have a few "get out of jail" cards at their disposal...some magic item that will get them out of a jam when something goes wrong. Potions of Fly and Gaseous Form work pretty well in this regard. Have ways to save yourself from needing to spend 16 PA on Raise Dead.
Your character should start sharing magical items with their companions, especially items that amplify abilities. "Mr. Mage, I have here a few scrolls of Enlarge Person and a pair of Pearls of Power 1. I like to be enlarged and if there is time in or before combat to make it happen, it would make me happy. I have potions of Enlarge Person as well if you don't have the chance." "Mr. Fighter, please wear this platinum ring...I'll wear it's companion and take some of your damage in the upcoming fight." "I have an old magical Cloak that I don't wear anymore...does anyone need it?"
Your character should have a Potion of Invisibility or a Elixir of Sneaking or a way to sneak effectively when needed. Yep, even those wearing 50lbs of Plate Mail should have a way to sneak. There are times when sneaking when is a reasonable and fun solution to an encounter...or sometimes one just needs another escape option.
Your character should begin to formulate a plan to tackle demons and devils, elementals and constructs, blobs and oozes. They need to begin working on ways to bypass various DRs, SRs, and special defenses.
Your character should begin to think about solutions to being grappled or helping others who are grappled. Melee types should have easy access to a light weapon, casters easy access to magical solutions (scrolls of Grease, Freedom of Movement, etc.).

9th:

9th
Your character should have solutions (or reasonable resistance) to mind influencing, mind control, and fear effects. These are more prevalent and only YOU are responsible for being ready. It doesn’t matter if the solution is Iron Will, Improved Iron Will (or PFS faction shirt), Circles of Protection, or properly outfitted Wayfinders with Ioun Stones, find some solution. There is nothing worse than having the big beefy fighter turn against the party.
All characters should have a plan to tackle demons and devils, elementals and constructs, blobs and oozes. Each character needs to have ways to bypass various DRs, SRs, and special defenses.

And I reviewed my own characters - and had to buy some stuff... and take a good look at tactics for some of them.

[Jiggy]

I enjoyed reading Painlord's guide oh-so-long-ago, and I'm pretty sure there were some helpful things in there at the time, but really only two things stuck with me enough that I remember to pass them along to others:

1. Get a healing wand. I don't care that you can't activate it yourself. Get one anyway.

2. Have a method of dealing damage at range. Even if that means 1d3 cold damage that you can only deal on a natural 20. Have the option available.

[WalterGM]

nosig wrote:

I to have shaired Painlords suggestions with others (mainly beginners) - but I "softened" it abit.

** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...

As a GM with a huge flock of new to PFS/new to RPGs players, I found this post super useful. The suggestions nosig makes really reinforce the importance of communication, which is key in any party.

[nosig]

Jiggy wrote:

I enjoyed reading Painlord's guide oh-so-long-ago, and I'm pretty sure there were some helpful things in there at the time, but really only two things stuck with me enough that I remember to pass them along to others:

1. Get a healing wand. I don't care that you can't activate it yourself. Get one anyway.

2. Have a method of dealing damage at range. Even if that means 1d3 cold damage that you can only deal on a natural 20. Have the option available.

oh, and rope. gotta remember to have rope.

[Fraust]

I rarely play PFS, but I found this post rather usefull, and will share it with homeplay groups. As stated already, I think people are taking this a little too seriously. I've never met Painlord in person, but I game with him in a PbP campaign, and I don't see him handing this out to players at the table and giving them the evil eye if they're not kitted out propperly. The point, I think, is to have a collection of information on how to be better prepared, all in one spot. As he says numerous times in the original post, not every character needs to have every box checkmarked.

[TwilightKnight]

nosig wrote:

I can still remember many years ago, going thru military training and having the Drill Sgt. in front of the class explaining how to use an atropine auto injector (for the treatment of nerve agent poisoning).

LOL...brings back a lot of memories

[Kydeem de'Morcaine]

I want to say thanks, I found this info useful since I have been considering trying to find a PFS play in my area.

I will also say the amount of consumables expected is surprising. I have to assume they are more available in PFS gaming than standard gaming adventure. Just thinking back over the last few low to mid level adventures I have been on for standard group games and the 'expected' consumables for each character seems to be about what is available if you buy/find everything through the entire adventure.

It does make sense though since you can't know ahead of time what the group will include. Just not what I would have thought of before I read this.

Buring through that many consumables for every adventure seems like it would make it difficult to save up for big ticket items. But I guess if it's the same boat for everyone that is ok.

[Jiggy]

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

I will also say the amount of consumables expected is surprising. I have to assume they are more available in PFS gaming than standard gaming adventure. Just thinking back over the last few low to mid level adventures I have been on for standard group games and the 'expected' consumables for each character seems to be about what is available if you buy/find everything through the entire module.

The "shopping system" in PFS is... generous. ;)

[Sir_Wulf]

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

Buring through that many consumables for every adventure seems like it would make it difficult to save up for big ticket items. But I guess if it's the same boat for everyone that is ok.

Ideally, you'll only need these consumables once in a while. They're more a matter of preparation than routine. You only want a potion of remove blindness once in a blue moon, but hoo boy do you really want it then. Most people avoid casual use of consumables more expensive than a 1st level spell effect.

[Nickademus42]

Jiggy wrote:

I enjoyed reading Painlord's guide oh-so-long-ago, and I'm pretty sure there were some helpful things in there at the time, but really only two things stuck with me enough that I remember to pass them along to others:

1. Get a healing wand. I don't care that you can't activate it yourself. Get one anyway.

2. Have a method of dealing damage at range. Even if that means 1d3 cold damage that you can only deal on a natural 20. Have the option available.

And swarms. Wand, range and swarms are the three big ones.

[TwilightKnight]

Nickademus42 wrote:

three big ones

I've said this in other threads and often to players...

There is a "big four" of challenges as I call them that you should be able to overcome in PFS.

• Swarms
  
• Invisibility (and to a lesser degree blindness)
  
• Flying creatures
  
• Darkness (especially Deeper)

The swarms are the first to address because they start appearing nearly immediately at low levels. The other three are usually delayed a bit, but become prevalent as early as level three. Have a plan to counter these challenges otherwise you will have an extremely difficult time with many scenarios.

[Jiggy]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Nickademus42 wrote:

three big ones

I've said this in other threads and often to players...

There is a "big four" of challenges as I call them that you should be able to overcome in PFS.

• Swarms
  
• Invisibility (and to a lesser degree blindness)
  
• Flying creatures
  
• Darkness (especially Deeper)

The swarms are the first to address because they start appearing nearly immediately at low levels. The other three are usually delayed a bit, but become prevalent as early as level three. Have a plan to counter these challenges otherwise you will have an extremely difficult time with many scenarios.

For the invisibility and darkness, what are the best ways to be prepared? Does it change based on whether or not you're a caster? (Looking for advice, as I have a level 6 fighter and a level 3 druid, and want to be prepared.)

[Chris Mortika]

Potion of see invisibility works well at low levels.

--+--

"Chris is a Mean GM" alert:

At two of the tables I ran at "Stuffed COWS" near Chicago last month, players tried to use deathwatch as a see invisible spell, asserting they could tell that there was a living (and invisible) character in that square over there. I didn't read the spell that way, and told them that at my table, it only describes tha health status of people you can already see.

If your GM rules differently than I do, then you could use the 1st-level spell deathwatch to defeat darkness.

[Pirate Rob]

Isn't see invisibility a personal only spell and thus unable to be in a potion?

[TwilightKnight]

Pirate Rob wrote:

Isn't see invisibility a personal only spell and thus unable to be in a potion?

That is correct.

[TwilightKnight]

Jiggy wrote:

For the invisibility and darkness, what are the best ways to be prepared? Does it change based on whether or not you're a caster?

It absolutely does. Asside from being creative in your resolutions, spell-casters have a big edge in countering these effects. As has been noted, neither See Invisibility nor Invisibility Purge are eligible for potions. So it makes countering it more difficult. However, a few ranks in UMD and a scroll or wand can help. A simple wand of Glitterdust would work very well. Even if the target makes the save, it is still 'dusted' and visible. If you can locate the space the invisible creature is in, a handful of powder (APG p.182 1cp) is extremely cost effective.

The most consistent counter to darkness effects is Daylight. Assuming again that you don't have spell-casting abilities, scrolls/wands and UMD are probably your best option. Darkvision will work against normal Darkness, but the Deeper version blocks it.

Another, albeit indirect and relatively unknown, counter for darkness is Summon Monster II. You can get a Lemure(devil) which has the see in darkness quality.

[thejeff]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

However, a few ranks in UMD and a scroll or wand can help.

What do you consider a few ranks? Use wand is DC 20. What score would you bother trying with in combat?

I'd think that if you've got a high Charisma and it's a class skill a few points might make it worthwhile, but I probably wouldn't bother investing in something that wouldn't work more than half the time.

[Jiggy]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Pirate Rob wrote:

Isn't see invisibility a personal only spell and thus unable to be in a potion?

That is correct.

Per the Core Rules, the range of a spell (such as "personal") has no bearing on whether or not it can be made into a potion or oil. I'm not sure where you're getting an idea to the contrary.

[nosig]

there is always the option of passing the scroll to a caster - with the statement
"Ogg know that Ogg not see things that can't be seen. If Ogg need to see things that are N-Vis-A-Bul, could pretty elf lady use this to give Ogg way of finding target? Then Ogg will see N-Vis-A-Bul things!" Big toothy smile!

[Jiggy]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

The most consistent counter to darkness effects is Daylight. Assuming again that you don't have spell-casting abilities, scrolls/wands and UMD are probably your best option.

Or an oil of daylight, poured onto my buckler. But man, 750gp a pop is pricey. :P

Quote:

Another, albeit indirect and relatively unknown, counter for darkness is Summon Monster II. You can get a Lemure(devil) which has the see in darkness quality.

Haha, nice!

[TwilightKnight]

Talk to me the next time you are in that encounter and have no visible means to counter it. Even a 25% chance to succeed is better than zero.

threadjack:

I always find it interesting the discussion about UMD. I see fighters attack all the time with a less than 50% chance to hit. Or a rogue with less than a 25% chance to disable a trap. Or the wizard who is down to cantrips and attacking the BBEG with a Ray of Frost. For some reason, we have this requirement that unless you can nearly guarantee success with UMD, it's not worth taking. Sometimes, it can be the difference between success and a Raise Dead.

[nosig]

Jiggy wrote:

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Pirate Rob wrote:

Isn't see invisibility a personal only spell and thus unable to be in a potion?

That is correct.

Per the Core Rules, the range of a spell (such as "personal") has no bearing on whether or not it can be made into a potion or oil. I'm not sure where you're getting an idea to the contrary.

this may be a holdover from 3.5 - but I was under the impression that spells without a target (ie range personal) could not be put into a potion. that's why you can't have a potion of shield, but can do Mage armor.

[TwilightKnight]

Jiggy wrote:

the range of a spell (such as "personal") has no bearing on whether or not it can be made into a potion or oil.

CRB p.477, under Potions, first paragraph, fourth sentence, would seem to disagree...

Quote:

"It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures."

[Chris Mortika]

I'm not sure whether "Target: personal" targets one or more creatures or objects. By plain reading, you are yourself a creature, so it should work.

[Jiggy]

@Bob: So the potion rules specifying a target restriction "disagrees" with my claim that there's no range restriction?

@Chris: Fun fact: "Target: personal" doesn't exist.

@Both of you (and whoever else):
Let's go over this one more time. As I already pointed out, "Personal" is a spell's Range. Eligibility for a potion or oil is not limited by Range.

As Bob cited, eligibility for potionification (yay new word) requires that the spell Targets one or more creatures (or objects, per the recent eratta).

As astute readers of spells will note, Range and Target are two entirely separate parts of a spell's description.

So to move on to practical application: a "personal" spell typically has a target of "you" - meaning the spellcaster. As spellcasters tend to be one or more creatures or objects, a target of "you" meets the targeting restriction for potionification eligibility.

[TwilightKnight]

It is a widely accepted convention that 'personal' spells cannot be made into potions, but so far I cannot find a designer's comments on it. I believe that it was a listing in the 3.5 FAQ.

Also, if you look at CRB p.213, under Range and Aiming a Spell, it seems to define, fairly clearly, "personal" and "target or Targets"

[thejeff]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Talk to me the next time you are in that encounter and have no visible means to counter it. Even a 25% chance to succeed is better than zero.

threadjack:

I always find it interesting the discussion about UMD. I see fighters attack all the time with a less than 50% chance to hit. Or a rogue with less than a 25% chance to disable a trap. Or the wizard who is down to cantrips and attacking the BBEG with a Ray of Frost. For some reason, we have this requirement that unless you can nearly guarantee success with UMD, it's not worth taking. Sometimes, it can be the difference between success and a Raise Dead.

threadjack:

The other examples are all using the character's core abilities in adverse conditions. Sure you're trying something with a low chance of success, but that's the only similarity.

UMD requires investing skill points and spending resources on the wand in order to get to that small chance. Not saying UMD isn't a valuable skill if you're built for it, but not all concepts are: low CHA, not class skill, low skill points.
I dunno, maybe it's worth buying the wand to let some caster use it on you when needed. Then maybe once you have it, it's worth trying.

[Jiggy]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

It is a widely accepted convention that 'personal' spells cannot be made into potions, but so far I cannot find a designer's comments on it. I believe that it was a listing in the 3.5 FAQ.

There are lots of widely accepted conventions from 3.5 that are incorrect in Pathfinder. Such as "oils are only for spells affecting objects, not creatures" or "it's possible to have an off-hand when not employing the TWF mechanic".

Quote:

Also, if you look at CRB p.213,

Could you list a chapter in the future? Being at work, I don't have the book - just the PRD. :)

Quote:

under Range and Aiming a Spell, it seems to define, fairly clearly, "personal" and "target or Targets"

Which seems to confirm my statement that a target of "you" counts as targeting a creature.

[TwilightKnight]

Another reading (by RAW if you're into that sort of thing), is that Potions/Oils require a target of one or more creatures.

By that definition, you could easily deny Daylight since it's target is "object touched"

But these are not PFS issues, they are PFRPG issues. I really like this thread for player/GM reference and really don't want to corrupt it with more rules rebates.

[thejeff]

nosig wrote:

there is always the option of passing the scroll to a caster - with the statement

"Ogg know that Ogg not see things that can't be seen. If Ogg need to see things that are N-Vis-A-Bul, could pretty elf lady use this to give Ogg way of finding target? Then Ogg will see N-Vis-A-Bul things!" Big toothy smile!

Does that work? Can you use scrolls (or wands for that matter) that have a target of "you" on others?

Or would you have to have scrolls of invisibility purge or faerie fire or something that targets the invisible creatures?

[Jiggy]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Another reading (by RAW if you're into that sort of thing), is that Potions/Oils require a target of one or more creatures.

By that definition, you could easily deny Daylight since it's target is "object touched"

Fifth printing eratta added "or objects" to the targeting restriction.

Quote:

rules rebates.

I can get cash back on rules? Sign me up! ;)

Honestly, given the unsettlingly low overlap between "users who are active in the PFS section" and "users who are active in the Rules section" I'm afraid I'm not willing to cease all rules discussion here. I am, however, willing to try and keep a reasonable cap to it. :)

[TwilightKnight]

Scrolls of spells with a target of "you" or "personal" cannot be cast on someone else.

Purge is a nice option because it creates a zone of invisibility negation. You don't really need to to be cast on someone else.

See Invis is only for the user so it is a bit more restrictive.

[TwilightKnight]

Jiggy wrote:

rules stuff

I avoid the rules forums because most of the posts I am interested in turn into HUGE flame wars and often have a lot of webmonster purges or get locked down. Perhaps we need a dedicate rules forum for PFS?

[Jiggy]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

rules stuff

I avoid the rules forums because most of the posts I am interested in turn into HUGE flame wars and often have a lot of webmonster purges or get locked down. Perhaps we need a dedicate rules forum for PFS?

Alternatively, only read replies from that Grick fellow. He's got a pretty nice track record on Rules stuff, and always includes links.

For instance, in the Rules thread you just made, I was about to reply to Cheapy to ask where he was getting that quote about spells with a range of "personal", as I couldn't find it in the Potions section of Magic Items. But Grick had the link (to Magic Item Creation).

So now I know the rules better. :)

[TwilightKnight]

Yep. Pleasantly surprised that I got a coherent, usable answer. Yayyy!

Jiggy wrote:

Fifth printing eratta added "or objects" to the targeting restriction.

Geez. After buying a 1st print and a 4th print, I figured all the errata would be finished. I hate errata. :-(

[TwilightKnight]

Jiggy wrote:

I can get cash back on rules? Sign me up! ;)

For Jiggy:

You really like busting my balls on typos don't ya :-)

Oh, and EXPLOSIVE RUNES!!!

[Jiggy]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Fifth printing eratta added "or objects" to the targeting restriction.

Geez. After buying a 1st print and a 4th print, I figured all the errata would be finished. I hate errata. :-(

Yeah, it can sneak up on you. And I don't think that one even made it into the FAQ like some eratta does.

[Jiggy]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

I can get cash back on rules? Sign me up! ;)

** spoiler omitted **

For Bob:

Only the funny ones; and it's with everyone, not just you. ;) Also, AAARRRGGHH!!!

[Jiggy]

SO ANYWAY.

For dealing with invisibility:
A spellcaster can have invisibility purge or see invisibility, but has to know/prepare it ahead of time (no potions or scrolls). If you're a druid and can reasonably determine the area where the invisible creature is, you can instead use a much cheaper faerie fire (or scroll thereof).

If you're a non-caster, then...?

For dealing with darkness:
A spellcaster can have daylight (or a scroll thereof) and a non-caster can have an oil of daylight (for a hefty price).

Against non-deeper darkness, a potion of darkvision will do the trick.

[Chris Mortika]

As a GM, I am always amused when a spellcaster pulls out a scroll of daylight in the middle of a deeper darkness effect and I ask him how he plans to read it.

[Jiggy]

Chris Mortika wrote:

As a GM, I am always amused when a spellcaster pulls out a scroll of daylight in the middle of a deeper darkness effect and I ask him how he plans to read it.

>.>

<.<

>.>

Right-o. So daylight or an oil thereof.

So what else have I missed?