3/4 BAB and below start with BAB 0, but can take feats like Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Weapon Focus knowing that at level 2 they will qualify for it and for all of level 1 it's just a dormant feat?
Yes, under the "ideal" circumstances concept, that is how it would work. That's not how the rules currently say it works, though--currently you actually need to qualify for the feat in some way before you can select it.
From the point of verisimilitude, it makes little sense that you would be able to, say, learn to hover and fly-by attack before you can actually fly. Are you running about the campsite with your arms outstreched, making "woosh" noises as you run past your confused comrades? I would actually say it makes MORE sense for a wizard to put a pile of ranks into Fly (the skill) when they get Fly (the spell). I mean, come on. If you could suddenly fly, wouldn't you spend all your time and energy on it too?
Do you think people didn't start studying how flight works until they built a functional airplane? That the Wilbur Wright went up in their plane and said, "okay, now that I'm here, how does airflow work and how do I climb, dive, and turn?"
Sure you got a dead feat or two, but getting the ability to do something 5 levels faster can very easily cause balance issues.In general, feats are not balanced according to when you should get them, but according to how powerful they are. Feats that you shouldn't be able to take until later levels should have a "level X" prereq, rather than "you shouldn't be able to take this until level X, so we'll put a couple of crappy feats in as prereqs to delay when you can actually take this feat until level X."
Yes, and your ruling allows characters to maneuver around this as I have demonstrated with the monk.
Consider the feats split major hex and using additional hex to get an additional major hex. You have to chose between the two normally, but now you can do both.How so? Extra Hex says "You must meet all of the prerequisites for this hex." So while you could take the feat at level 1, you can't use it to get a major hex because you don't learn major hexes until witch level 10.
That is because you choose to take split major hex at 17 and then pick extra hex at 19.
This also affects prestige classes pre-reqs.Can you identify a prestige class in the Core Rulebook where allowing someone to select a feat earlier than they could use it would allow you to enter the prestige class before character level 6?
While it isn't early entry, it is still a bypass of prerequisites. You no longer need int 15 to take cypher mage (inner sea magic), no longer need Str 13 for liberator from Pathfinder Companion: Second Darkness Player's Guide, no longer need Dex 15 for red mantis assassin from Inner Sea World Guide (this not trivial as it allows Str builds instead only Dex builds), and no longer need Dex 13 for Student of War from Pathfinder Chronicles: Seeker of Secrets (allows you to dump Dex without sucking up AC).
Also, would this let a monk take feats based his flurry BAB, since he actually has that BAB while flurrying? Obviously, they'd only work on his flurries until his regular BAB got high enough.Yes and correct.
On a related note, does this mean that a Monk has two different Power Attack amounts? That, at level 4, he'd have a -1 Atk/+2 Dam when punching normally and a -2 Atk/+4 Dam when flurrying? Or is that how it works normally?
|
Yes, and your ruling allows characters to maneuver around this as I have demonstrated with the monk.
Actually, no, those feats have nothing saying 'you must be this level to get this feat'. The closest they have to that is 'BAB +X', which is noticeably lower than the levels you actually get them at.
Actually, no, those feats have nothing saying 'you must be this level to get this feat'. The closest they have to that is 'BAB +X', which is noticeably lower than the levels you actually get them at.
Yes, and your ruling allows characters to maneuver around this as I have demonstrated with the monk.
Those BAB requirements are still relevant to Eldritch Knight, particularly if you allow Magical Lineage + Heighten Spell for early entry.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
It's also worth mentioning that you can get the Dimensional Dervish feat through eldritch knight, horizon walker, summoner, or dragon disciple at the same or even lower levels. The only reason monks get it much later in the game is because they don't get abundant step until 12th level.
|
While it isn't early entry, it is still a bypass of prerequisites. You no longer need int 15 to take cypher mage (inner sea magic), no longer need Str 13 for liberator from Pathfinder Companion: Second Darkness Player's Guide, no longer need Dex 15 for red mantis assassin from Inner Sea World Guide (this not trivial as it allows Str builds instead only Dex builds), and no longer need Dex 13 for Student of War from Pathfinder Chronicles: Seeker of Secrets (allows you to dump Dex without sucking up AC).
Not really. The prerequisite can be specified as meaning that you actively have the feat, not just have the feat in your queue.
Sure, you can take Power Attack with a 12 Str, but it is not an active feat, and therefore not a fulfillment for Cleave or Furious Focus, since it is a dead feat. The same applies for feats required to take a PrC. That feat has to be usable, or it won't count.
It's also worth mentioning that you can get the Dimensional Dervish feat through eldritch knight, horizon walker, summoner, or dragon disciple at the same or even lower levels. The only reason monks get it much later in the game is because they don't get abundant step until 12th level.
And sadly, they're the ones that need it the most to get off those full attacks.
@callarek: nope, the dimensional feats are not combat feats.
if you allow Magical Lineage + Heighten Spell for early entry.People actually DO that?
RAW it is legal.
@callarek: it merely says that you have to meet the prerequisites for the class and the classes do not have the indicated stat scores as prerequisites. Also it does not make mention of any differentiation between having the feat and being able to use the feat.
@callarek: it merely says that you have to meet the prerequisites for the class and the classes do not have the indicated stat scores as prerequisites. Also it does not make mention of any differentiation between having the feat and being able to use the feat.
Since the idea of taking feats even though you don't meet the prerequisites is entirely a house rule at this point, I'd hope that anyone using this house rule (or official people making this official, if they ever do) would think to make it so you have to be able to use the feat before it counts as a prerequisite.
Citation?RAW it is legal.
Simple. Take magical lineage (through additional traits at level 3 if GM is nitpicky) on scorching ray. Heighten Scorching Ray. It is now a third level spell. Magical Lineage will reduce the spell's adjusted spell level by 1, so you may cast it from a second level spell slot. You are able to cast more than one of these. Therefore you are able to cast third level arcane spells.
Something tells me not.
Was that verified by the design team?
It is verified by the rules. The design team has been incorrect on rules before, namely the fire immunity = vulnerable to cold issue a while back.
Do you think people didn't start studying how flight works until they built a functional airplane? That the Wilbur Wright went up in their plane and said, "okay, now that I'm here, how does airflow work and how do I climb, dive, and turn?"
The first time Wilbur Wright attempted to fly his plane he crashed it. Their subsequent flights were all straight lines that ended in partially controlled crash landings. They didn't even try to turn. This was with having significant experience with gliders.
I'd go on with other examples of learning advanced techniques before basic ones, but it would just go off topic and not be productive. In terms of gameplay, a monk with early dimension dervish probably isn't going to break the game, and I can just throw dice at anyone who wants to spend all their feats on stuff that won't work for ten more levels. I expect of lot of level 5 feats to go towards BaB +6 stuff, but I'll learn to live with it. While a major change, less arbitrary restrictions is usually better in the end.
I would ask, though, if this has been the company understanding up until now, or if this is a new ruling that has been decided upon? Looking back at some previous material, it makes more sense under this system than before (hello, Sneaking Precision before level 17).
I wouldn't allow it.
And I would amend that to 'It is verified by my interpretation of the rules', since I myself interpret them differently.
You can interpret all you want, but what the rules actually say is pretty clear.
That's for you to decide -- but just as you can use the magical lineage trait to have a toppling magic missile as a first level spell at level 1 you can have a heightened level spell at level 2 that doesn't adjust the spell level.
It's not at all different, you get a free level to play with metamagic with and that's what it's being used for.
Personally I would be fine with saying you aren't casting 3rd level spells... but at the same time I don't think this will break the game.
You also pickone spell. Having multiple castings of one spell doesn't qualify for having the ability to cast 3rd level spells. Emphasis on the plural. This seems to be bending the rules.
Um... Devil's Advocate here -- sorcerers are screwed by your interpretation here.
After all at level 6 they have one third level spell they can cast -- by your opinion this means they cannot qualify for anything that requires the ability to cast third level spells (plural) -- like Eldritch knight for instance.
Heighten Spell (Metamagic)
You can cast spells as if they were a higher level.Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.
Level Increase: The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
Those are why I thought it wouldn't work with magical lineage. The trait would actually lower the spell level and not just the slot that other metamagic feats incur.
Well lets run this together with what you posted earlier.
I take magical lineage(magic missle) and merciful spell.
Now merciful spell is a normal metamagic which means among other things it doesn't actually affect the spell level.
So I prepare a Merciful Magic missile -- as a 0th level spell, since its actual spell level was reduced and nothing else increased it back to 1st level -- I know have magic missile all day long as a cantrip.
You also pickone spell. Having multiple castings of one spell doesn't qualify for having the ability to cast 3rd level spells. Emphasis on the plural. This seems to be bending the rules.Um... Devil's Advocate here -- sorcerers are screwed by your interpretation here.
After all at level 6 they have one third level spell they can cast -- by your opinion this means they cannot qualify for anything that requires the ability to cast third level spells (plural) -- like Eldritch knight for instance.
vs having 2 spells known for your level that allows you to qualify. It's a bad example and reference I should edit out since it will lead to argument.
The description of the benefits from heighten spell + magical lineage are clear enough that it would turn your level 3 spell into a level 2. You can increase it to a level 4 but you lack the slots to put it into a 3. Heighten spell actually increases the spell level and not just the slot. Magical lineage states that it reduces the effective level of metamagic by 1. Seems solved to me.
EDIT: sorry. Treat it's actual level. And since heighten changes the effective level and then the lineage applies to this it isn't possible.
Yeah sorcerer's only have 1 spell known that is 3rd level at level 6. They have multiple castings but only one spell known. So a very bad example.
Sorry the way you wrote it I thought you didn't get what I was driving at. My wording was harsh unintentionally as well.
As to the magic missile -- it's still a -1 effective level -- you can't say it is a -2 effective level for one thing and not for another.
This means for example that if I take magical lineage for fireball and apply a metamagic feat to fireball (say intensify) then I'm casting a level 2 fireball in a level 3 slot.
Another (more potent example) would be taking it for cone of cold (a fifth level spell) with say elemental spell -- now I'm using a fifth level slot for a fourth level spell which is now stopped by globe of invulnerability (which it wasn't before).
Yes, and your ruling allows characters to maneuver around this as I have demonstrated with the monk.
And my point still stands: if the feat is so powerful that you shouldn't be able to take it before level X, it should have "level X" as a prerequisite. There are other ways in the game to get feats earlier than normal by bypassing the prerequisites (monk, ranger), and nobody's screaming that this is wrecking balance.
That is because you choose to take split major hex at 17 and then pick extra hex at 19.
Again... so? Is that feat so broken that getting it at 17 breaks the game?
While it isn't early entry, it is still a bypass of prerequisites. You no longer need int 15 to take cypher mage (inner sea magic), no longer need Str 13 for liberator from Pathfinder Companion: Second Darkness Player's Guide, no longer need Dex 15 for red mantis assassin from Inner Sea World Guide (this not trivial as it allows Str builds instead only Dex builds), and no longer need Dex 13 for Student of War from Pathfinder Chronicles: Seeker of Secrets (allows you to dump Dex without sucking up AC).
So in other words, no, you can't cite a prestige class in the Core Rulebook where you could get into the class before character level 6. (BTW Second Darkness isn't even for the Pathfinder RPG, so any prestige classes from there isn't valid for this discussion.)
Since the idea of taking feats even though you don't meet the prerequisites is entirely a house rule at this point, I'd hope that anyone using this house rule (or official people making this official, if they ever do) would think to make it so you have to be able to use the feat before it counts as a prerequisite.
Yes, it would require checking and updating related language in other parts of the book.
The first time Wilbur Wright attempted to fly his plane he crashed it. Their subsequent flights were all straight lines that ended in partially controlled crash landings. They didn't even try to turn. This was with having significant experience with gliders.
Just because you're a 5th-level expert who put ranks in Fly doesn't mean you can't roll a "1" on your Fly check. :) Especially with maneuverability: clumsy (–8 to Fly checks). :)
I would ask, though, if this has been the company understanding up until now, or if this is a new ruling that has been decided upon? Looking back at some previous material, it makes more sense under this system than before (hello, Sneaking Precision before level 17).
This is by no means an official ruling. As I said, ideally (in terms of learning feats), it's easier and simpler if the system let you *learn* a feat, even if you couldn't *use* it.
Sean, is this intended as a fundamental change to how all feats are intended to work? Is the basic definition of a "prerequisite" officially changing with this ruling such that we need to overhaul how everything works within Hero Lab?
This ruling changes how every feat with a prerequisite behaves at a fundamental level, so it's impossible to have this be a simple "either/or" choice for users. If things need to be changed within Hero Lab, then that's a meaningful amount of work we're going to need to allocate resources for and there's going to be a lot of surprised users when everything changes, so we'll need some sort of official statement to reference. It sounds like you're currently declaring this an optional interpretation, and that the rules as written still stand as the official interpretation, but I want to make sure. Please confirm whether this is something concrete for which we need to make sweeping changes within Hero Lab to accommodate.
does this mean that a Monk has two different Power Attack amounts? That, at level 4, he'd have a -1 Atk/+2 Dam when punching normally and a -2 Atk/+4 Dam when flurrying? Or is that how it works normally?
That is how it works normally.
"The monk uses his improved flurrying BAB to determine the effect of those feats.
—Sean K Reynolds, 07/08/11"
Sean, is this intended as a fundamental change to how all feats are intended to work? Is the basic definition of a "prerequisite" officially changing with this ruling such that we need to overhaul how everything works within Hero Lab?
This ruling changes how every feat with a prerequisite behaves at a fundamental level, so it's impossible to have this be a simple "either/or" choice for users. If things need to be changed within Hero Lab, then that's a meaningful amount of work we're going to need to allocate resources for and there's going to be a lot of surprised users when everything changes, so we'll need some sort of official statement to reference. It sounds like you're currently declaring this an optional interpretation, and that the rules as written still stand as the official interpretation, but I want to make sure. Please confirm whether this is something concrete for which we need to make sweeping changes within Hero Lab to accommodate.
I think there are actually two questions:
1) Is "You need to be able to meet the prereqs in any temporary form to take the feat" going to be officially clarified in a FAQ or errata?2) Is "You can take feats you can't possibly qualify for now, and have them activate when you do qualify later" going to be officially modified as a FAQ/errata?
If #1 is true, nothing needs to change, although you could support it by adding a way to replace a validation warning with a "Only active when: ______" note. So you could right click any warning and specify conditions under which it's no longer an error. Or just leave it with the validation warning.
If #2 is true, then yes, it would need a major overhaul...
How many times does Sean have to repeat the statement that the "prereqs to use, not to learn" idea is just what he'd prefer, not a ruling on how things are? Do people not read?
Which still doesn't answer the question, Do temporary means of gaining the prerequisite count for the purposes of taking feats?
Because we have still heard two different things from two different staff members at this point.
Which suggests to me that this is something that needs FAQ or errata treatment.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Which still doesn't answer the question, Do temporary means of gaining the prerequisite count for the purposes of taking feats?
That's the first thing that was answered:
"If you have a Str 13, you can take Power Attack. It doesn't matter if you have it naturally, or a +2 from a belt, or even a +4 from a barbarian rage or bull's strength spell--the instant you have the required ability score, you can learn the feat, and you can use the feat as long as you're meeting all the prerequisites (which means you could have a character who can only PA when he's under the effect of a rage or bull's strength spell)."Because we have still heard two different things from two different staff members at this point.
I must have overlooked where a staff member said temporary qualifications didn't work. Can you link the post, please? Thanks. :)
| 43 people marked this as a favorite. |
Here's the official word:
1. The game differentiates between permanent ability score bonuses (such as +1 every 4 character levels and wearing a +2 belt of giant strength for 24 hours) and temporary ability score bonuses (such as from barbarian rage, an alchemist mutagen, or a bull's strength spell).
2. Permanent ability score bonuses do count for the purpose of qualifying for feats.
3. If you lose a permanent ability score bonus, you still have the feat, you just can't use it until your ability score qualifies again.
4. Temporary ability score bonuses do not count for the purpose of qualifying for feats. (My earlier statement contradicting this point was my opinion of how it should work.)
5. I personally believe that differentiating between permanent and temporary scores in this fashion is needlessly complex and only hinders player choices in a metagaming way.
6. I personally believe that you could revise the feat prerequisite system so characters could select feats before they actually meet the prerequisites, but wouldn't be able to use the feat until they do, which would allow (for example) monks and rogues to take Weapon Focus at level 1 in anticipation of having the required BAB +1 at level 2.
7. Implementing points 5 and 6 as official game rules would require making revisions to language elsewhere in the game (such as qualifying for a prestige class), similar to how the discussion about revising the Stealth skill is a significant change that affects other parts of the rules (such as scent and hide in plain sight).
8. The design team hasn't discussed implementing 5 and 6 as official game rules.
Abraham spalding wrote:
Which still doesn't answer the question, Do temporary means of gaining the prerequisite count for the purposes of taking feats?
That's the first thing that was answered:
"If you have a Str 13, you can take Power Attack. It doesn't matter if you have it naturally, or a +2 from a belt, or even a +4 from a barbarian rage or bull's strength spell--the instant you have the required ability score, you can learn the feat, and you can use the feat as long as you're meeting all the prerequisites (which means you could have a character who can only PA when he's under the effect of a rage or bull's strength spell)."
Note that this is from a post entirely separate from Sean's "in an ideal world" hypothetical idea.
And that answer was wrong, you notice it didn't conform with what we already knew about the topic. As such it would be erroneous to take anything from that post as official.
Because we have still heard two different things from two different staff members at this point.I must have overlooked where a staff member said temporary qualifications didn't work. Can you link the post, please? Thanks. :)
No, but I'll tell you what about the thread it was in (in no small part because it developed off of the main topic *iirc* and I don't remember what the main topic was). Someone was asking if an alchemist with the wings discovery qualified to take feats like hover or fly by attack. James Jacob (I think, but I do remember it was Piazo staff specifically) stated that it didn't qualify since it was only a temporary ability and didn't provide enough to take the feats in question.
I mentioned this earlier in the thread too, must have skimmed past it? ;D
@Sean -- not to harp, and I also understand if the answer comes out (as the 8 ball would say), "Answer cloudy ask again later" but what about temporary abilities such as the alchemist wings discovery and feats like hover that rely on a specific ability (as opposed to ability scores which are or are not permanent)?
I ask because it is just different enough... you know?
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 12 people marked this as a favorite. |
@Sean -- not to harp, and I also understand if the answer comes out (as the 8 ball would say), "Answer cloudy ask again later" but what about temporary abilities such as the alchemist wings discovery and feats like hover that rely on a specific ability (as opposed to ability scores which are or are not permanent)?
I just talked to Jason about this, and under the strictest interpretation of the current rules, unless you have a "reliable means of flying every day," you don't meet the prerequisite of "Fly speed" (which is what Flyby Attack and Hover have).
Jason is falling on the side of "unless you have it all the time, it's not 'reliable,' so it doesn't count." To which I reply, "that means if I'm a sor/wiz who learns and casts overland flight every day (1 hour/level), at level 16+ I'm able to fly every minute of the day that I'm normally awake, yet I still don't qualify for the feat." To which he replies, "yep, but otherwise a 5th-level wizard who knows fly can take Flyby Attack, which is really a 'shortcut feat' [in that its effect is much like Spring Attack without having to take all the prereqs] and is probably too good."
So, as written, if your flight is always on (like several 15th-level sorcerer bloodlines) you qualify for those feats. If your flight is periodic (like the fly spell, alchemist wing discovery, or 9th-level celestial sorcerer wings of heaven bloodline ability), you don't qualify.
Which, IMO, is needlessly complex...
So an Alchemist with Feral Mutagen cannot take Weapon Focus (Claws)?
Well not what I was hoping to hear but what I figured -- thank you very much for the follow up Sean.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So an Alchemist with Feral Mutagen cannot take Weapon Focus (Claws)?
He can, because we don't have a temporary/permanent toggle for proficiencies in the rules.
Yeah, it's weird.
*Keanu Reeves (Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure version) voice*
Dude....
My brain hurts, now.
Thanks.
I smell a potential Design Tuesdays post. Or maybe that's cheese.
Here's the official word:
1. The game differentiates between permanent ability score bonuses (such as +1 every 4 character levels and wearing a +2 belt of giant strength for 24 hours) and temporary ability score bonuses (such as from barbarian rage, an alchemist mutagen, or a bull's strength spell).
2. Permanent ability score bonuses do count for the purpose of qualifying for feats.
3. If you lose a permanent ability score bonus, you still have the feat, you just can't use it until your ability score qualifies again.
4. Temporary ability score bonuses do not count for the purpose of qualifying for feats. (My earlier statement contradicting this point was my opinion of how it should work.)
5. I personally believe that differentiating between permanent and temporary scores in this fashion is needlessly complex and only hinders player choices in a metagaming way.
6. I personally believe that you could revise the feat prerequisite system so characters could select feats before they actually meet the prerequisites, but wouldn't be able to use the feat until they do, which would allow (for example) monks and rogues to take Weapon Focus at level 1 in anticipation of having the required BAB +1 at level 2.
7. Implementing points 5 and 6 as official game rules would require making revisions to language elsewhere in the game (such as qualifying for a prestige class), similar to how the discussion about revising the Stealth skill is a significant change that affects other parts of the rules (such as scent and hide in plain sight).
8. The design team hasn't discussed implementing 5 and 6 as official game rules.
Thank you for clarifying! It's always better when everything can be put into the correct boxes.