Feats: Prerequisite


Rules Questions

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So, let's say I have a Synthesist Summoner. (scroll to bottom) His human-form base Strength is 7, while his eidolon's Strength is 15.

Can he take Power Attack?

-Matt

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Dennis Baker wrote:


:) Fortunately in my home game I can choose to use option 5 & 6 (which is pretty similar to what I do regardless)

:( For PFS still stuck with old way (ie. Eldrich Claws won't work with Feral Mutagen or many other claw builds, plus many other irritations)

Same here. For example, the druid has taken several feats such as Quicken Breath, even though she is not always a dragon. I don't find it especially game-breaking. Unlike the fact that she's a 3.5e druid, with access to all those uber-cheese "hey, what the hell, turn into anything you want!" feats, which are game-breaking :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Amuny wrote:

So you would even allow a character with 11 Strenght and a +2 Strenght Belt to take Power Attack as bonus feat?

And the second he remove / lost his belt, he can't use it anymore?

He has to have worn the strength belt at least 24 hours for the bump to be considered. "permanent'.

Also if he loses the belt he loses access to both Power Attack and any other feats that count it as a prerequisite. If at most, your str bonus is only a one...I'd consider taking different feats.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mattastrophic wrote:

So, let's say I have a Synthesist Summoner. (scroll to bottom) His human-form base Strength is 7, while his eidolon's Strength is 15.

Can he take Power Attack?

-Matt

No... the Eidolon can, however.

Dark Archive

LazarX wrote:
Mattastrophic wrote:

So, let's say I have a Synthesist Summoner. (scroll to bottom) His human-form base Strength is 7, while his eidolon's Strength is 15.

Can he take Power Attack?

-Matt

No... the Eidolon can, however.

Except the fused eidolon of a synthesist summoner gets no feats...


while fused they are one creature. the Eidolon doesn't have a STR modifier for any game mechanic purposes. the PC gains the Eidolon's STR.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Mattastrophic wrote:

So, let's say I have a Synthesist Summoner. (scroll to bottom) His human-form base Strength is 7, while his eidolon's Strength is 15.

Can he take Power Attack?

-Matt

Does he have a >13 strength 24 hours a day?

That seems to be the requirement.

Silver Crusade

alexanderb wrote:
while fused they are one creature. the Eidolon doesn't have a STR modifier for any game mechanic purposes. the PC gains the Eidolon's STR.

But only while fused. I'm currently having trouble seeing "I can remain fused for 24 hours straight" as significantly more or less analagous to "I can wear this belt for 24 hours straight" or "I have a constant ability to fly from bloodline ability X" than it is to "I can cast Overland Flight three times to remain flying for 30 hours straight" without a specific ruling to support having the Eidolon fall on the belt side of the distinction. And if I understood SKR's last post correctly, we don't have that.

...I have been wrong before. I think it was on a Tuesday...


Eidolon's strength not allowing Synthesists to qualify for the abilities would go a long way to fixing the issues with the archetype.

Silver Crusade

It could, but after looking back over the relevant material, I'm not sure my reasoning was valid. A belt does not have a "duration" the way a spell does, so the fact that it meets the requirement of having a "duration of greater than 1 day" has to be taken to refer to the fact that it remains active for that long. Overland Flight has a duration, and the earliest you can make it last at least 1 day would be if you extend it at caster level 12 (at which point I think it should count but that's a separate issue from the Eidolon). Fusing with the Eidolon doesn't have an explicit duration, so it would fall back on the fact that you can use the ability once and maintain its benefit for 24 hours. At that point you can take the feat and go to sleep, and then every time you regain your qualification, the feat becomes active again, just as if you were removing and re-equipping that belt or walking in and out of an antimagic field.


Dennis Baker wrote:

Does he have a >13 strength 24 hours a day?

That seems to be the requirement.

That seems to be the case. The eidolon "remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard action)," and it only seems to go away if the eidolon is "reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score," or "if the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed."

And since Pathfinder PCs can be awake for 24 hours a day... he's set.

-Matt


I like the human alternate trait heart of the fields. Once per day you can ignore an effect that would cause fatigue or exhaustion. Now you never need sleep.


Cheapy wrote:
Eidolon's strength not allowing Synthesists to qualify for the abilities would go a long way to fixing the issues with the archetype.

that would make the entire archetype kind of suck. you'd get the special abilities and evolutions of the Eidolon, and lose everything else.


alexanderb wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Eidolon's strength not allowing Synthesists to qualify for the abilities would go a long way to fixing the issues with the archetype.
that would make the entire archetype kind of suck. you'd get the special abilities and evolutions of the Eidolon, and lose everything else.

The only thing you'd lose is the ability to dump Strength to 7 to cheese out a higher Charisma or Constitution.


Oh I see your issue. I meant feats, not abilities.


Grick wrote:
Johnico wrote:
does this mean that a Monk has two different Power Attack amounts? That, at level 4, he'd have a -1 Atk/+2 Dam when punching normally and a -2 Atk/+4 Dam when flurrying? Or is that how it works normally?

That is how it works normally.

FAQ: How does a monk's improved BAB when flurrying interact with feats like Power Attack and Combat Expertise, which have different effects depending on your BAB?

"The monk uses his improved flurrying BAB to determine the effect of those feats.

—Sean K Reynolds, 07/08/11"

Cool, thanks. Didn't think to check the FAQ.


Bob Weston wrote:
It could, but after looking back over the relevant material, I'm not sure my reasoning was valid. A belt does not have a "duration" the way a spell does, so the fact that it meets the requirement of having a "duration of greater than 1 day" has to be taken to refer to the fact that it remains active for that long. Overland Flight has a duration, and the earliest you can make it last at least 1 day would be if you extend it at caster level 12 (at which point I think it should count but that's a separate issue from the Eidolon). Fusing with the Eidolon doesn't have an explicit duration, so it would fall back on the fact that you can use the ability once and maintain its benefit for 24 hours. At that point you can take the feat and go to sleep, and then every time you regain your qualification, the feat becomes active again, just as if you were removing and re-equipping that belt or walking in and out of an antimagic field.

Ability score bonuses lasting longer than 24 hours are considered permanent until the thing granting the bonus goes away. If you take the belt off and put it back on, you have to wait another 24 hours before the bonus becomes permanent and you again qualify for the feat. It's not like standing at an international border jumping across each line. There is a waiting period even if you take it off show your little niece how shiny your belt buckle is.

Source:

Quote:

Ability Score Bonuses

Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.

Strength: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.

Dexterity: Temporary increases to your Dexterity score give you a bonus on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The bonus also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and your Combat Maneuver Defense.

Constitution: Temporary increases to your Constitution score give you a bonus on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this bonus and add that amount to your current and total hit points. When the bonus ends, remove this total from your current and total hit points.

Intelligence: Temporary increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.

Wisdom: Temporary increases to your Wisdom score give you a bonus on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom.

Charisma: Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.

Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

And belt specifically states:

Belt of Giant Strength wrote:
This belt is a thick leather affair, often decorated with huge metal buckles. The belt grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Strength of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.

Silver Crusade

Huh. I must have misread something. I could have sworn it had been said somewhere that once you had met the prerequisite and taken the feat, if for example you subsequently lost your belt, even a temporary bonus would let you use it again. Maybe I got confused by one of SKR's speculative posts.

Frankly, I think that's stupid. If the 24 hours resetting when you take the belt off an put it back on means you can't use the feat during that time, then I say suppressing it with a Dispel Magic should reset that clock too, but since it refers to when the belt is worn rather than when it is active, it doesn't. (I'm taking that sentence to have an implied "each time it is donned" at the end because otherwise the situation becomes thoroughly laughable.) Oh well...if I ever try DMing a home game again, I'll probably address that. Meantime I just want to have it right.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

The ruling on wizards with the fly spell seems rather confusing, as Fly is a class skill for wizards. That reserved for the ones that buy a pair of wings of flying in their fading years?

I'll continue allow people to take Fly once they have a means of making themselves fly under their own power. For me, that's the intuitive ruling.


Grick wrote:
alexanderb wrote:
can anyone link to actual rules for this in the SRD or the books?

Ability Score Bonuses: "Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."

Prerequisites: "Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.

A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables."

Wait so this means a character with a headband of intelligence would actually gain skillpoints after wearing it for all of 24 hours?

Also does it mean that bonuses from effects with a greater than 24 hour duration only ever start to apply after the first 24 hours rather than immediately upon receiving them (such as equipping a woundrous item that increases a score)?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Threeshades wrote:


Wait so this means a character with a headband of intelligence would actually gain skillpoints after wearing it for all of 24 hours?

Also does it mean that bonuses from effects with a greater than 24 hour duration only ever start to apply after the first 24 hours rather than immediately upon receiving them (such as equipping a woundrous item that increases a score)?

Temporary bonuses count for skill and ability check immediately, along with all base stat calculations like attack rolls and save. Specific items, like bonus spells, must wait for the bonus to become permanent after 24 hours.

Headbands of Intelligence do grant additional skill points, but are created with specific skills preselected. The creator must have the skill assigned to the item, and the wearer only gains those bonus skills when he wears the item. A +2 headband assigned to Acrobatics grants the wearer ranks in Acrobatics, which do not stack with any ranks in Acrobatics the wearer already has.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Threeshades wrote:


Wait so this means a character with a headband of intelligence would actually gain skillpoints after wearing it for all of 24 hours?

Also does it mean that bonuses from effects with a greater than 24 hour duration only ever start to apply after the first 24 hours rather than immediately upon receiving them (such as equipping a woundrous item that increases a score)?

Temporary bonuses count for skill and ability check immediately, along with all base stat calculations like attack rolls and save. Specific items, like bonus spells, must wait for the bonus to become permanent after 24 hours.

Headbands of Intelligence do grant additional skill points, but are created with specific skills preselected. The creator must have the skill assigned to the item, and the wearer only gains those bonus skills when he wears the item. A +2 headband assigned to Acrobatics grants the wearer ranks in Acrobatics, which do not stack with any ranks in Acrobatics the wearer already has.

Ah, thanks. I'm learning a lot today.

So I also came up with a question about this whole quasi-permanency stuff in relation to synthesists: What about prerequisites based on the creature's shape such as having specific natural attacks or a certain number of limbs. For example would a synthesist be able to take improved natural attack/armor or would he be allowed to take multi-weapon fighting if his eidolon had four arms?

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