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Hey guys--I am new to GMing pathfinder, Nothing was going on at my local store so I bought the PF books, learned up, and now I run a weekly game there. Played RPGs since the early 80s and was GMing 4e until I played pathfinder once (anyone wanna buy a lot of 4e books?).
Aaaanyways, I am used to DMing for groups of friends, and I have yet to deal with maniacal random folks you get in a public game. Of course everyone who plays an RPG wants their character to be a star and win the favor of everyone in the party for being so awesome, but I didn't realize how bad it was until I got the email yesterday—he's playing a playtest Summoner, and now wants his summoned pet to be a deity, and in order to have favor with this deity (e.g. be on the same side, have the pet defend them, etc), the group needs to do what the high priest says (e.g. the player), well, you get where this is going.
Anyways, I have two questions, first, what the f? I never knew people like this existed, much less went out in public and showed off how crazy they were--have you guys run into seriously broken people like this running games in public places like conventions, game stores, etc?
Second, of course he's not summoning a deity, but I hate to just say NO, I may have to whip it out on this one. How would a more experienced convention GM handle this sort of weird request?
Third bonus question, this guy dominates playing sessions, I usually have to repeat myself a few times during exposition because he's chatting around the table, I don't feel it's terribly fair to boot him at this point, but...have you guys ever booted someone from your game, how did you do it respectfully and with dignity?
Still kinda floored I have to deal with this kind of stuff, that's what I get for running an open game in a public setting, lol.
Thanks for any advice, I welcome any suggestions.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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As for the 'diety' and making the other PCs do what he says, I'd let the players decide how to handle that. If they ask if they've heard of the diety, let them roll knowledge relgion checks and tell them no, regardless of their result (since it's not an actual diety). They can choose to tell the summoner he's nuts, play along to keep his useful eidolon at maximized effectiveness for the party, or whatever. I know most characters I play would either confront him and tell him to stop being a jackass, or mockingly pretend to treat him and his pet with respect, but be pretty obvious that it wasn't sincere.
As for him dominating, ask him to keep the cross talk to a mimimum while you're trying to provide descriptions of what the PCs see. If that's not enough, you can pull out a few tricks that you've probably seen teachers use in jr high - start from the beginning each time you're interrupted, or simply stop talking until he's done - either way the delay will probably get through to him, or the other players will tell him to be quiet themselves.
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If they ask if they've heard of the deity, let them roll knowledge relgion checks and tell them no, regardless of their result (since it's not an actual deity).
Genius. Thank you, lol-didn't even cross my mind.
I've tried waiting out the talking, the guy is oblivious, but I think these tips are a good start. I suppose I need to work with the group and find a way to indicate the story isn't moving forward until his stops.
Venture-Captain, Arizona—Tucson
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Every group has a few "prima donnas", but it sounds as if this guy's behavior is beyond the pale of acceptable play. While such silliness is an amusing gag once in a while, it's not acceptable for it to take over the game.
When dealing with a potential problem of this sort, you want to be fair, firm, and consistent. Allow him to have his share of the table's time and attention, but don't allow him to take over the whole thing. Clearly explain your expectations to him. Keep in mind that you are the game master and have a responsibility to encourage appropriate play and stop problem behavior.
Remember that it's always best to "praise in public, but criticize in private". Unless you have to, don't embarrass him in front of the other players. That would only make him defensive and frustrated. Instead, harness the player's powers for good: Take him aside before the session and explain that you're cancerned the group won't have time to finish the scenario if he doesn't help keep the party on track. Explain that the cross-talk and roleplay involving his eidolon need to be kept to a minimum to prevent delays in running the game.
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Yea you have an interesting one there.
I used to help manage casts of renaissance festivals in multiple cities and I can tell you there will always be some one out the gate that wants to be the character from out in left field. The want to do that because they think it will help the stretch as a "actor" or in this case role-player. If you can keep that in mind, you can almost sympathize with them.
The thing I would remind my player ( a term that crosses through both backgrounds) is that the thing that stands out for your character is when the action is flying. Being prepared for action and handling it well is better than all the background fluff you have prepared.
That why many adventures drop you into the action so fast, it's better than monologs of how and why you act the way that you do.
Jowl's advice is really good. I'm glad that you looking to it. It gives a good in game answer to you problem.
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Hmmm,
Ok sorry for the 4e plug, but I think D&D 4e DMG's do a good job with listing the 'types' of people that a GM could encounter in game.
For backgrounds, Id limit him to his trait choices, or close to, after all that's why Pathfinder gave them to us, not just for neat-o abilities.
If it was a nuts background story, Id offer a sarcastic response to why his character further jacked up his life and is now gang-pressed (shang-hai'ed) into the faction and must submit to higher officials. No matter how much someone flavors their story, they are still limited to their faction standing, reknown, and level.
A simple 'dude, you are level 1' and your faction leader owns your soul.' (go cheliax!)
Or, drop a book and say, 'show me where you can do that'. This ends the argument almost instantly.
There's a good/bad GM approach to someone who chats too much.
The delay idea is good, other players will be as frustrated as you will be. On a funny, note, Ive seen GM's pull out their handheld or even a novel.
If you are in a convention, there are more then likely time slots. Unfortunately, if you don't make the time, eh, no end. Ive seen GMs just say 'you failed' or 'game called', and a small amount of reward was met. An unfortunate end to someone who jacks up your table. So a reminder to keep the chat minimal and frequently remind them of the alotted time for the game.
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but I didn't realize how bad it was until I got the email yesterday—he's playing a playtest Summoner, and now wants his summoned pet to be a deity, and in order to have favor with this deity (e.g. be on the same side, have the pet defend them, etc), the group needs to do what the high priest says (e.g. the player), well, you get where this is going.
I think this is a totally awesome role play opportunity for everyone, and he is certainly free to play his character in this way. Just as all the other players are free to go along or not. He just shouldn't be surprised when the other players don't 'worship' his creature nor follow his delusional demands that they do so.
Additionally it probably won't be long before the rest of the party start 'withholding' their own 'blessings' from him. This is likely to be more detrimental to him, than his 'withholding' of 'blessings' from his Eidolon from the party.
He'll probably find himself on the wrong side of the game scheduling gods pretty quickly too. ;)
Good times!
As for the talking stuff, as Sir_Wulf said...firm, fair and consistent. You'll probably want to lead a few sessions with a reminder preamble about this kind of behavior. You need to establish your line and stick with it for everyone, not just Mr. Annoying.
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Venture-Captain, Arizona—Tucson
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I'm not completely without sympathy: I can be a prima donna myself. One of my PCs is an Osirian monk, deranged from too much time communing alone in the wasteland. The Pathfinders only keep him around because they periodically need a tough scrapper as extra muscle on an expedition.
Such a concept could be a pain in the neck, distracting from the adventure. As such, I need to remember to "rein it in" if I start hogging the spotlight. Since I want everyone else playing to also have a good time, I have to moderate my character's deranged behavior.
The guy with the problem character typically doesn't want to be a jerk: He just gets so enthusiastic about his character's "schtick" that he forgets to share the limelight with everyone else. Encourage him to step back before his character's gag gets stale and everyone will be happier.
Oh, I REALLY like this topic. Having been an RPGA DM for 20 years and having done Living City, Living Greyhawk, Pathfinder Society and Living Forgotten Realms, I've had a lot of experience with idiot, cheating, consciously-moronic-to-bend-the-rules players..and some really nice people as well. I'll admit, I'm a prima donna DM. I'm a lot less willing to put up with morons than I was 20 years ago.
To answer your situation, you need to treat the once-in-a-while autistic-unpleasant players with the same way you treat kids. Two things:
1. Ask what do the rules say?
2. WHEN they look up the rules and tell you "said rules are unclear" then your answer is HELL NO! Unless the rules specifically spell out YES, then the answer is always NO..and just like LOVE AND LOGIC PARENTING, you need to keep answering NO, without qualifiers, until they give up.
It's much easier to say yes in a home game. In fact, it's encouraged. In public games, players really need to get used to playing by the rules and then being creative on the roleplaying end. Although the player 'thinks' he's being creative, HE'S REALLY JUST TRYING TO CHEAT AND BREAK THE RULES.
I actually love playing with these types of players..the players you have to watch out for are the people who truly are unpleasant..and are joining public games just because NOBODY ELSE WILL HAVE THEM. I quit the RPGA after /the last time/ dealing with those a-social pricks and I'm really hoping that the PFS community does a better job of shunning those people.
Lastly, when there comes a time (and there will), where you feel that something really unpleasant/miserable is happening at the table, don't feel bad if you have to use the old "just walk away and cool down" bit as a GM. You're not required to sit there and be anybody's whipping boy. If you ever get the jackass at the table that won't quit: Stand up, say "I'm taking a 5 minute break, if this person's still here when I get back, the session is over" and let the /other/ players back you up and chase off the offending player. It sounds horrible, but in 20 years, I can count on thumbs the times I wish I'd have done that instead of playing out the final miserable minutes of those types of sessions. During your walk-away time, go talk to an event coordinator and let them know (before the offending player goes and slanders you).
Most of the time, these things work themselves out however and most games are the greatest, friend-making events of our lives.
Have a better one!
jh
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It's much easier to say yes in a home game. In fact, it's encouraged. In public games, players really need to get used to playing by the rules and then being creative on the roleplaying end. Although the player 'thinks' he's being creative, HE'S REALLY JUST TRYING TO CHEAT AND BREAK THE RULES.
I know the original poster didn't really get into the meat of what was meant behind this character concept, but how do you go strait to cheating from what sounds like, to me, an interesting RP idea for a character? As I already mentioned, it's not likely to be a POPULAR character choice, but interesting none the less.
Now if the summoner player truly wants his summon to be an actual DEITY with all that entails, clearly he is off the rails and nothing in the PF Rules nor Organized Play support this kind of insanity and the answer is an unequivocal no. But I just read it as a great character concept with lots of role play potential :)
I know the original poster didn't really get into the meat of what was meant behind this character concept, but how do you go strait to cheating from what sounds like, to me, an interesting RP idea for a character? As I already mentioned, it's not likely to be a POPULAR character choice, but interesting none the less.
I agree, that it's very interesting. It would make for a GREAT home game character, but trying to alter the "rules" to suit your character is cheating in a public game and he will get called out on it eventually. All that blow-hard stuff aside, if he want's to "claim" that his eidlon is a deity and roleplay the crap out of that, GO FOR IT. I think that it creates some interesting opportunities without breaking anything.
This is a similar argument we all just had with the guy who DEMANDED that the rules be changed so his dwarf could ride a dire war boar with razor-tusks mounted with machine guns (or thereabouts ;) He wanted to just use most of the stats for a HORSE, but then say it was a boar (and modify the combat stats if I recall). Although I sympathize with that guy as well, I just know how those guys get treated when they've been /allowed/ by one GM to go outside the rules and then another GM gets a hold of them and has to be the big Mr. Policeman when he calls the player out for cheating. I've seen it happen..and I've also had to be the GM who wastes a half-hour of everyone else's time getting a rules-bender straightened out. It's no fun being GM #2 because you get looked at like #2. I've also been in the Living Greyhawk Triad scene where we had to take away a guy's character because he'd been playing at home with friends and he had cheated the crap out of the game and didn't even know it until he brought his 9th level 'whatever' to the convention.
It's best to get your players off to the right start so that when they go play at a game store with strangers, they don't get mentally beat up for bending/breaking the rules ;)
jh
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There's nothing wrong with the player wanting to play a conman, trading favours from a fake deity, but it's only going to work on isolated, inbred yokels, who've never seen a proper summoning spellcaster.
One thing people always forget, whenever new PC options are published; just because a class/feat/spell is new to the rules, doesn't mean it's rare, or unheard of before in the setting.
(E.g. When we moved from 2nd Ed to 3.0, it was retro'ed that 'all those wizards you've fought over the years, whose spellbooks you never found; guess what, they were sorcerors all along!')
So, if he's thinking that by playing a Summoner (which are, admittedly, going to be rarer in organised play, as the final rules aren't out yet, and many people are using PCs they made last year), that he's going to have every NPC goggle-eyed in wonderment, then he's sadly mistaken.
Some bozos are going to be impressed, but a lot are going to know exactly what he is. It doesn't have to be expressed in game terms, but the town could have a retired adventurer, who recalls to his pals in the tavern the tale of his meeting with a 'Mwangi spirit-talker'.
The Summoner's act may get him a free bed and board for a few nights, but if he keeps pushing his luck, he'll be run out of town.
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Relax people, the concept is sound. Hell I'm doing almost exactly the same thing. My character considers her eidolon the channeled avatar of her god. It's the way he's playing it sounds like where the problem lies.
That guy is being pushy about it. It's a lightning rod for his attention whoring. He's trying to force people to play how he wants in return for his assistance. It's basically "worship him", which is in actuality "worship me!"
Most people, me included, would say, "Your deity can smite my ass, because I worship 'X'(any god) and only 'X'. Take up complaints with 'X'."
I never require anyone to worship, bow down, or even acknowledge my eidolon. GMs and players don't even have to touch the idea, whether real or imagined.
Hell I don't even give the deity part much note, it usually comes up when someone asks offhand about him. It's actually sparked some interesting roleplaying. I've had philosophical conversations where a halfling took the Jungian view that he was merely a conjuration of my subconscious mind. It's merely a, oh he's in charge of me, ask him, kinda deal.
Anyway the solution is to tell him to tone it down. Nobody is required to buy into his brand of crazy. And extorting favors out of the party in any way shape or form is not cool. Play is based on teamwork. Tell him to stop cramming his background down people's throats. I could say I'm the king of Siam, but I should be slapped if I ask for tithes, taxes, or special favors.
Sir_Wulf has some great advice as well. I agree completely.
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If he was roleplaying the character like that because that is who the character is i could understand. But it sounds like he is metagaming wanting the players to do what he wants them too to get his way and that is just not right. Others above in the post gave some great ideas and i'd say follow what they have said.
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Many players like to RP unique quirks. In our large group of 30-40 regular players, I can think of quite a few with quirks. As long as they don't dominate the table with it, or irritate the other players (too much) then I could care less and will try to work with their ideas.
If they are a distraction, then it is time for a quick talk about the issue. If they don't respond, the rest of the players can help add peer pressure to help mellow them out.
We don't have many issues with the local scene, but like one poster mentioned, the Cons really bring out the wingnuts. I am convinced that some (small %) of these folks can not / do not participate in any home games for that very reason. I enjoy them because it makes me appreciate the players at our local scene and my home game so much more.
There was a bunch of good advice in this thread so enjoy and good luck!
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The 1st level Summoner for PFS that I whipped up recently is going to take a level in Sorcerer because the eidolon he summons is actually his father and has now exposed him to his otherworldly origins. It's purely fluff with no in-game effect. But I like it.
I would say, as far as the eidolon thing goes, be patient for a bit. I would inform the player that his Summoner's eidolon is not actually a god but his character can believe it if he likes. Then I would watch to see how it actually plays out in the game. If it is then a problem that needs your intervention then you can handle it, but it might not be. You won't actually know until he plays in your game for a bit.
As far as the distracting sidebar conversations. Act decisively. Set a standard and enforce it for everyone. Nothing will get the entire group's attention like hearing "The adventure will continue when you are done." Yes, there are incidents when criticism is best reserved for private, but I don't think this is one of those situations. It doesn't even have to be that player when you first enforce the standard. As long as you continue to enforce it every time. You might get labeled as kind of a hardass but as long as you keep the game on track and get it finished within the time block then it will be worth it. Let your descriptive and exciting GM style speak for you. That will far outweigh any label you earn for running a tight ship. Your responsibility is to the group as a whole and these kind of standard behavior expectations serve the group better.
Tam