Bard. Way Overpowered!!!

[Matthew Downie]

If you're doing things at full speed (fling open door, kill enemies, party members use their various healing abilities), you can often 'finish' a room in 5 rounds, which means by level 10 even a haste spell can last for two encounters. (And a party with all those buffs up can usually win battles quickly and not need much healing.)
At that rate a minute-per-level spell lasts for anything up to 20 encounters. Since no-one fights that many encounters in a day, it's really a question of what specific delays the dungeon throws at you.
The Pathfinder Adventure Path dungeons I've seen don't usually force any significant delays on the party.

As for the idea that someone will steal the loot in those ten minutes - if I've planned my dungeon-exploring badly enough that a group of enemies can get into one of the rooms I cleared, I'd rather they stopped to pick through the treasure I left behind than attacked me from the rear while I'm in the middle of fighting something else.

[Captain Beaky and his band]

Our group usually does a few rooms while buffed and then goes back to grab treasure.
If as DM, you throw in a locked/trapped door or additional monsters arriving as the first encounter is about to finish, or a NPC that engages the party in conversation or such, a prisoner that needs immediate help, you can delay the multi-room tactics and make those buffs run out. There are many ways to do this.

[Matthew Downie]

That's not always easy to get right.

NPC prisoner: "Help! They're going to sacrifice me! Also, I haven't eaten in three days!"
Party: "Shut up! We're killing vampires and Death Ward runs out in three minutes! We'll deal with you then!"

Boy, this thread has really strayed from its original (sarcastic) topic over the last five years...

[Lastoth]

Not sure if it's sarcasm, but when I play a bard I feel like I'm constantly the star performer. Can't wait to play one again.

[Azten]

c873788 wrote:

Dragonborn3 wrote:

Bards are Awesome

The only way you could make Bards more awesome is if Paizo created the Air Guitarist archetype.

It's called Sound Striker.

[Umbranus]

In my opinion the characters do not know how many hp damage some injury dealt them. And because of that I'd assume that everyone who was hit in combat would take the time to check his/her own status after the fight. Instead of just rushing on, ignoring the arrow sticking in their shoulder.

Sure, if you assume that everyone always knows how severe a wound is, where they are in the dungeon they have no map for etc. then you can rush through dungeons at record speed.
For me that's a combat simulation, not roleplaying but YMMV.

[Anzyr]

I don't know about you, but I can gauge in a general sense how serious my injuries are and I can remember my way through Zelda dungeons I haven't played in years. And last I checked I'm not a combat simulation RPG character.

[JoeJ]

CommandoDude wrote:

JoeJ" wrote:

Mapping is a very good idea if you want to find your way back out again. A good map can also show you places where it would make sense to search for secret doors. If the party has run into a one-way door, sliding wall trap, chute, or anything else that prevents backtracking, a map will make it a lot easier to figure out how to get back to where you want to be. And if you've encountered a teleportal, having a map is the fastest way to realize you're not where you thought you were. Plus, if (when) you have to leave the dungeon for a while and then come back, a map will come in very handy.

Or you just print out the dungeon map from online. Our table actually makes use of a table mat we can draw on. In any case, none of that is in game, so it affects time 0

That's a new one for me. In 35 years of playing I've never heard of a GM allowing that kind of metagaming. You either draw the map from what the characters see, which takes time in game, or you do without.

CommandoDude wrote:

Figuring out a riddle is real time, not game time. And talking is a free action. And frankly, I can't think of a time where we were EVER forced to solve some kind of riddle in the middle of a dungeon clearing - maybe deciphering some walltext, or trying to piece together what room the BBEG is most likely in yes, but legit puzzle?

The PCs are in frozen time while the players figure out a puzzle? Again, that's not the way I've ever seen it done. The usual method is that it takes the characters the same length of time it takes the players. The same goes for talking; roleplay the scene and that's how long it takes. Speaking as a free action is only for making short remarks during combat, not normal interactions.

CommandoDude wrote:

Also, Perception checks don't require actions, so I fail to see why you're any less able to detect traps if you rush. Not that it matters, most traps in PF suck anyways - this isn't like 2e where you step on the wrong tile and a lighting bolt bounces up and down the hallway half a dozen times before it wipes the party.

If you're actively using Perception it's a move action. And if traps aren't meaningful in your game that's a decision by the GM, not a function of the rules. There are several examples of area effect traps in the CRB.

It sounds like the dungeons your group uses are all just a couple of rooms of non-stop fighting; no serious traps, tricks, multi-level labyrinths, NPCs to interact with, or challenging puzzles. I would get bored with that style of play very quickly.

[JoeJ]

Matthew Downie wrote:

If you're doing things at full speed (fling open door, kill enemies, party members use their various healing abilities), you can often 'finish' a room in 5 rounds, which means by level 10 even a haste spell can last for two encounters. (And a party with all those buffs up can usually win battles quickly and not need much healing.)

At that rate a minute-per-level spell lasts for anything up to 20 encounters. Since no-one fights that many encounters in a day, it's really a question of what specific delays the dungeon throws at you.
The Pathfinder Adventure Path dungeons I've seen don't usually force any significant delays on the party.

As for the idea that someone will steal the loot in those ten minutes - if I've planned my dungeon-exploring badly enough that a group of enemies can get into one of the rooms I cleared, I'd rather they stopped to pick through the treasure I left behind than attacked me from the rear while I'm in the middle of fighting something else.

And when you're so low on spells, rages, hit points, etc that you're not sure you can take another encounter, do you go back and take the time to search all the rooms you've been through on your way out of the dungeon? What about when you get to the heart of the dungeon and discover you can't get through the door without the four magic keys that you were supposed to find?

[cnetarian]

While I've seen the high speed run done in MMORPGs I've never seen it in a P&PRPG (and in MMORPG speed runs usually one person lags behind and loots). I'm actually tempted to try it just to see if it is as awful as my imagination makes it out to be. Come to think of it, even in MMORPGs I've only seen speed runs done when the party is either over leveled for the dungeon or very familiar with the dungeon.

[Anzyr]

JoeJ wrote:

If you're actively using Perception it's a move action. And if traps aren't meaningful in your game that's a decision by the GM, not a function of the rules. There are several examples of area effect traps in the CRB.

This has been covered a number of times and it is in fact a function of the rules that traps are useless not how it is being run in a game. Their binary. Fail the trap, take some damage and then heal it off. Or disarm the trap, take no damage and continue on. And that's traps for you.

[Anzyr]

JoeJ wrote:

Matthew Downie wrote:

If you're doing things at full speed (fling open door, kill enemies, party members use their various healing abilities), you can often 'finish' a room in 5 rounds, which means by level 10 even a haste spell can last for two encounters. (And a party with all those buffs up can usually win battles quickly and not need much healing.)

At that rate a minute-per-level spell lasts for anything up to 20 encounters. Since no-one fights that many encounters in a day, it's really a question of what specific delays the dungeon throws at you.
The Pathfinder Adventure Path dungeons I've seen don't usually force any significant delays on the party.

As for the idea that someone will steal the loot in those ten minutes - if I've planned my dungeon-exploring badly enough that a group of enemies can get into one of the rooms I cleared, I'd rather they stopped to pick through the treasure I left behind than attacked me from the rear while I'm in the middle of fighting something else.

And when you're so low on spells, rages, hit points, etc that you're not sure you can take another encounter, do you go back and take the time to search all the rooms you've been through on your way out of the dungeon? What about when you get to the heart of the dungeon and discover you can't get through the door without the four magic keys that you were supposed to find?

You can move 30ft. and still heal 1d8+1 points of damage per turn (or be passively fast healing with Infernal Healing, which is slightly more gold per HP efficient, but less time to hp efficient). So there's no excuse to not be moving and healing at the same time. When you get to the heart of the dungeon and there's a door that needs 4 magic keys you adamantine weapon your way through the wall. Magic locked doors never work, in TTRPG.

[JoeJ]

Anzyr wrote:

JoeJ wrote:

Matthew Downie wrote:

If you're doing things at full speed (fling open door, kill enemies, party members use their various healing abilities), you can often 'finish' a room in 5 rounds, which means by level 10 even a haste spell can last for two encounters. (And a party with all those buffs up can usually win battles quickly and not need much healing.)

At that rate a minute-per-level spell lasts for anything up to 20 encounters. Since no-one fights that many encounters in a day, it's really a question of what specific delays the dungeon throws at you.
The Pathfinder Adventure Path dungeons I've seen don't usually force any significant delays on the party.

As for the idea that someone will steal the loot in those ten minutes - if I've planned my dungeon-exploring badly enough that a group of enemies can get into one of the rooms I cleared, I'd rather they stopped to pick through the treasure I left behind than attacked me from the rear while I'm in the middle of fighting something else.

And when you're so low on spells, rages, hit points, etc that you're not sure you can take another encounter, do you go back and take the time to search all the rooms you've been through on your way out of the dungeon? What about when you get to the heart of the dungeon and discover you can't get through the door without the four magic keys that you were supposed to find?

You can move 30ft. and still heal 1d8+1 points of damage per turn (or be passively fast healing with Infernal Healing, which is slightly more gold per HP efficient, but less time to hp efficient). So there's no excuse to not be moving and healing at the same time. When you get to the heart of the dungeon and there's a door that needs 4 magic keys you adamantine weapon your way through the wall. Magic locked doors never work, in TTRPG.

Can you move and rest to recover spells at the same time? Or move and buy more expendable magic items (using gold that you failed to pick up)?

Adamantine weapons don't work against Plot Device doors. And they don't work against anything at all if you don't have one.

It sounds to me like you're mostly playing Pathfinder as a straight up board wargame. There's nothing wrong with that, but I personally wouldn't find it interesting for very long.

[Anzyr]

You can pick the gold up later... you know after everyone is dead. And you can move and heal at the same time yes, since every group should have a wand or three of CLW or Infernal healing handy (if you are smart you'll have both). Plot device doors are called "bad gming". If there's a wall players should use creative solutions to get around it. Including break down the stupid wall next to the door. Plot device doors is incredibly video game like, not very TTRPG like.

Tell me do low rocks block your path in the games you play as well? (And seriously there's tons of way to get around "obstacle here" especially at high levels.)

[JoeJ]

Anzyr wrote:

You can pick the gold up later... you know after everyone is dead. And you can move and heal at the same time yes, since every group should have a wand or three of CLW or Infernal healing handy (if you are smart you'll have both). Plot device doors are called "bad gming". If there's a wall players should use creative solutions to get around it. Including break down the stupid wall next to the door. Plot device doors is incredibly video game like, not very TTRPG like.

That's nonsense. Puzzles with only one solution are perfectly fair and good GMing as long as the solution is available to the PCs. It's a trope that's been in TTRPGs since the invention of TTRPGs, and in literature (especially fairy tales) since long before that.

And I wasn't talking about using wands to cure, but about the need to leave the dungeon and come back later because you're getting low on spells and other resources - including the charges in your healstick. In a medium to large dungeon, it's pretty much a certainty that you won't be able to clean it out in one trip unless your group never rolls anything but 20s.

[Anzyr]

If you are low on spells, then you'll still have your 2-4 minute buff spells the next time you return. I fail to see the point you are making. And no puzzles with only one solution are a sign of very poor GMing. Because it reeks of fiat. A magical door that blocks your progress that you for some reason you can't get around except the way the GM says to, is the definition of railroading.

[Umbranus]

Anzyr wrote:

I don't know about you, but I can gauge in a general sense how serious my injuries are and I can remember my way through Zelda dungeons I haven't played in years. And last I checked I'm not a combat simulation RPG character.

Adrenaline is a tricky thing. Can make you feel well off despite being lethaly wounded.

[Anzyr]

Umbranus wrote:

Anzyr wrote:

I don't know about you, but I can gauge in a general sense how serious my injuries are and I can remember my way through Zelda dungeons I haven't played in years. And last I checked I'm not a combat simulation RPG character.

Adrenaline is a tricky thing. Can make you feel well off despite being lethaly wounded.

I guess if you presume adventurers aren't at all competent that makes sense. Seems like a weird assumption given they do this kind of thing for a living but to each their own.

[Tacticslion]

I, for one, welcome our new Bardic overlords.

(At least this way, we'll get entertainment.)

[Michael Sayre]

Tacticslion wrote:

I, for one, welcome our new Bardic overlords.

(At least this way, we'll get entertainment.)

Bards have quietly ruled our table for generations now. Our current Wrath of the Righteous campaign may very well be the first campaign we've run in years that doesn't have a bard in the group, which I blame primarily on Ultimate Psionics and the fact that this is probably the only AP I've ever played in that begs you to have multiple paladins in the group.

[Umbranus]

Anzyr wrote:

Umbranus wrote:

Anzyr wrote:

I don't know about you, but I can gauge in a general sense how serious my injuries are and I can remember my way through Zelda dungeons I haven't played in years. And last I checked I'm not a combat simulation RPG character.

Adrenaline is a tricky thing. Can make you feel well off despite being lethaly wounded.

I guess if you presume adventurers aren't at all competent that makes sense. Seems like a weird assumption given they do this kind of thing for a living but to each their own.

I just assume they are humans instead of John McClane or John Rambo.

[Frenir]

I know this is supposed to be silly and sarcastic but I was running a game with a half-orc bard/barbarian build with a long spear. Kinda sick that the bard is out damaging the fighters.

[JoeJ]

Anzyr wrote:

If you are low on spells, then you'll still have your 2-4 minute buff spells the next time you return. I fail to see the point you are making. And no puzzles with only one solution are a sign of very poor GMing. Because it reeks of fiat. A magical door that blocks your progress that you for some reason you can't get around except the way the GM says to, is the definition of railroading.

Um... no. I get that you don't enjoy an Assemble-the-Plot-Coupons storyline. I don't enjoy non-stop SWAT dungeoneering. That doesn't make either of them bad GMing, just styles that are not to your or my taste.

[Michael Sayre]

Frenir wrote:

I know this is supposed to be silly and sarcastic but I was running a game with a half-orc bard/barbarian build with a long spear. Kinda sick that the bard is out damaging the fighters.

I've seen it done without the barbarian levels. We had an Arcane Duelist during one adventure who was the tank, party face, skill monkey, primary damage dealer, and primary buffer, running two performances at once and getting more and more deadly the longer a combat went. Bards are scary business man.

[NobodysHome]

Y'know, I was going to say "No", but then I statted up Chuck Norris and he took out the rest of the party with a single raised eyebrow... then the bard kicked his butt.

So now I KNOW they're OP.

[Mystically Inclined]

Wait, what? Bards?!?

... Ah, the poster is being sarcastic.

*Reads the first page*

... Oh, this thread is 4 years old. Wow. What a necro...

... Oh look, it's Treantmonk. Heh.

(Snippet, emphasis mine)

Treantmonk wrote:

If you are going to do a "real" "XXX is overpowered" thread - then pick on the Wizard, Druid or Paladin.

If you are going for a sarcastic "XXX is overpowered" thread - then pick on the Monk or Barbarian.

*Choke*

*Cough sputter cough*

[Mystically Inclined]

*Reads the second page*

Wow did this thread get derailed...

[Azten]

Pretty much.

[voideternal]

Nobody complains about bards being overpowered because our bard overlords are using subtle charming machinations behind the scenes. Now, nobody complains because we're all being versatile-performance diplomacied into thinking bards are a-o-kay. With music.

Now, compare with the always-truthful paladin-OP threads and always-raging barbarian-OP threads. Only by stepping back and realizing the LACK of bard-OP threads, can one truly appreciate how OP bards are.

[Bob of Westgate]

JoeJ wrote:

Anzyr wrote:

JoeJ wrote:

Matthew Downie wrote:

If you're doing things at full speed (fling open door, kill enemies, party members use their various healing abilities), you can often 'finish' a room in 5 rounds, which means by level 10 even a haste spell can last for two encounters. (And a party with all those buffs up can usually win battles quickly and not need much healing.)

At that rate a minute-per-level spell lasts for anything up to 20 encounters. Since no-one fights that many encounters in a day, it's really a question of what specific delays the dungeon throws at you.
The Pathfinder Adventure Path dungeons I've seen don't usually force any significant delays on the party.

As for the idea that someone will steal the loot in those ten minutes - if I've planned my dungeon-exploring badly enough that a group of enemies can get into one of the rooms I cleared, I'd rather they stopped to pick through the treasure I left behind than attacked me from the rear while I'm in the middle of fighting something else.

And when you're so low on spells, rages, hit points, etc that you're not sure you can take another encounter, do you go back and take the time to search all the rooms you've been through on your way out of the dungeon? What about when you get to the heart of the dungeon and discover you can't get through the door without the four magic keys that you were supposed to find?

You can move 30ft. and still heal 1d8+1 points of damage per turn (or be passively fast healing with Infernal Healing, which is slightly more gold per HP efficient, but less time to hp efficient). So there's no excuse to not be moving and healing at the same time. When you get to the heart of the dungeon and there's a door that needs 4 magic keys you adamantine weapon your way through the wall. Magic locked doors never work, in TTRPG.

Can you move and rest to recover spells at the same time? Or move and buy more expendable magic items (using gold that you failed to pick up)?...

I don't know where you get the idea that all dungeons are short and don't have complicated puzzles. Most the adventure paths I've played have had some pretty extensive dungeons in them. Ones that you can't just "SWAT" your way through. The Cerulean Knot(maybe mispelled) from Council of thieves. I won't go into details because of spoilers, but that's a complex dungeon with lots of puzzles and doors that you can't just admantine axe your way through. And it's an official Paizo Adventure path. And a fun one too

[Bob of Westgate]

Oh and regarding this thread. Bards suck. They have always sucked, and will continue to suck. Gamers 2 is the funniest and most accurate depiction of bards. Check it out, funny stuff

[Michael Sayre]

Bob of Westgate wrote:

Oh and regarding this thread. Bards suck. They have always sucked, and will continue to suck.

It's the sheer number of blind fools who believe clearly untrue facts like this that underscores how truly OP the bard really is. One bard, two editions ago, made a bluff check to convince a dragon he was harmless and since them hundreds have fallen for that lie.

....

Huh, I thought that was a rogue talent.

[Chengar Qordath]

JoeJ wrote:

Anzyr wrote:

You can pick the gold up later... you know after everyone is dead. And you can move and heal at the same time yes, since every group should have a wand or three of CLW or Infernal healing handy (if you are smart you'll have both). Plot device doors are called "bad gming". If there's a wall players should use creative solutions to get around it. Including break down the stupid wall next to the door. Plot device doors is incredibly video game like, not very TTRPG like.

That's nonsense. Puzzles with only one solution are perfectly fair and good GMing as long as the solution is available to the PCs. It's a trope that's been in TTRPGs since the invention of TTRPGs, and in literature (especially fairy tales) since long before that.

Yeah, single solution puzzles work as long as the players can reasonably be expected to figure out what the solution is, and GM doesn't get too heavy-handed or fiat-dependent on shutting down an alternate solution. It never hurts to have an explanation ready for why "Break Down the Door" isn't a viable option.

[Issac Daneil]

1) Bards are loads of fun; and in-combat Charm Person working is one of the greatest low level moments of your life.

2) Let's just take a step back and realize that this Roleplaying + Tactical miniatures combat is a balancing act that varies per group.

Anzyr's method of playing would sicken me to participate in, because it feels like there's no mystery or soul to that kind of game. But, it's his own, so I won't decry it further.

End of the day, if you're enjoying your Pathfinder/D&D/etc game, YMMV when listening to others' experiences; some grow up on minis combat, some on breathing world immersion.

[Anzyr]

The mystery and soul comes from the plot and npcs. If you've decided to crash a dungeon, diplomacy isn't exactly the tool for the job.

[JoeJ]

Chengar Qordath wrote:

JoeJ wrote:

Anzyr wrote:

You can pick the gold up later... you know after everyone is dead. And you can move and heal at the same time yes, since every group should have a wand or three of CLW or Infernal healing handy (if you are smart you'll have both). Plot device doors are called "bad gming". If there's a wall players should use creative solutions to get around it. Including break down the stupid wall next to the door. Plot device doors is incredibly video game like, not very TTRPG like.

That's nonsense. Puzzles with only one solution are perfectly fair and good GMing as long as the solution is available to the PCs. It's a trope that's been in TTRPGs since the invention of TTRPGs, and in literature (especially fairy tales) since long before that.

Yeah, single solution puzzles work as long as the players can reasonably be expected to figure out what the solution is, and GM doesn't get too heavy-handed or fiat-dependent on shutting down an alternate solution. It never hurts to have an explanation ready for why "Break Down the Door" isn't a viable option.

A lot of published modules use "ancient magic long forgotten" as the reason the door can't be broken down. That works, but I think it's a bit cheesy, especially if it pops up more than once. Usually it's much better to use ordinary magic like Permanent Walls of Force that's just too tough for PCs of the party's level (and stash of equipment) to get through.

[Chengar Qordath]

JoeJ wrote:

Chengar Qordath wrote:

JoeJ wrote:

Anzyr wrote:

You can pick the gold up later... you know after everyone is dead. And you can move and heal at the same time yes, since every group should have a wand or three of CLW or Infernal healing handy (if you are smart you'll have both). Plot device doors are called "bad gming". If there's a wall players should use creative solutions to get around it. Including break down the stupid wall next to the door. Plot device doors is incredibly video game like, not very TTRPG like.

That's nonsense. Puzzles with only one solution are perfectly fair and good GMing as long as the solution is available to the PCs. It's a trope that's been in TTRPGs since the invention of TTRPGs, and in literature (especially fairy tales) since long before that.

Yeah, single solution puzzles work as long as the players can reasonably be expected to figure out what the solution is, and GM doesn't get too heavy-handed or fiat-dependent on shutting down an alternate solution. It never hurts to have an explanation ready for why "Break Down the Door" isn't a viable option.

A lot of published modules use "ancient magic long forgotten" as the reason the door can't be broken down. That works, but I think it's a bit cheesy, especially if it pops up more than once. Usually it's much better to use ordinary magic like Permanent Walls of Force that's just too tough for PCs of the party's level (and stash of equipment) to get through.

Yeah, "ancient magic long forgotten" has never been one of my favorite tropes. Sticking to stuff that's got rules beyond "No, you lose" does the give the party a slim chance of coming up with something really clever.

Really, when it comes to puzzles the key is to know your group. Obviously, you shouldn't make a door that requires answering three riddles correctly if everyone in the group hates riddles, and so on. It's just like any other aspect of GMing; make sure the challenges are things your group likes. If what your group likes is finding snaky ways to get around puzzle doors, make sure there's a way to do it.

[Matthew Downie]

Bob of Westgate wrote:

I don't know where you get the idea that all dungeons are short and don't have complicated puzzles. Most the adventure paths I've played have had some pretty extensive dungeons in them. Ones that you can't just "SWAT" your way through.

Right, but with a dungeon you can't do all in one go, you can still buff up, SWAT through (say) five encounters and then retreat, checking for treasure as you go. The only difference between that and doing it slowly is that you probably have a lot more resources left in case something nasty turns up at the end of the day.

I can imagine scenarios where this backfires in some way, but I can equally imagine situations where a slow and methodical party gives the monsters in the dungeon a chance to gather their forces and prepare an ambush or united counter-attack.

[RDM42]

Matthew Downie wrote:

Bob of Westgate wrote:

I don't know where you get the idea that all dungeons are short and don't have complicated puzzles. Most the adventure paths I've played have had some pretty extensive dungeons in them. Ones that you can't just "SWAT" your way through.

Right, but with a dungeon you can't do all in one go, you can still buff up, SWAT through (say) five encounters and then retreat, checking for treasure as you go. The only difference between that and doing it slowly is that you probably have a lot more resources left in case something nasty turns up at the end of the day.

I can imagine scenarios where this backfires in some way, but I can equally imagine situations where a slow and methodical party gives the monsters in the dungeon a chance to gather their forces and prepare an ambush or united counter-attack.

If you SWAT and retreat, rest up for eight hours heal and recharge, you think they aren't going to use that time to gather up their forces, prepare an ambush, or ready a united counter strike? You think that when the party pulls back to recuperate that the denizens of the place are just going to sit down in place and play solitaire until they return?

[Anzyr]

The SWAT style is the most efficient way to use your resources. If the SWAT style is exhausted and out of resources and has to retreat, the slow style will certainly be exhausted. Furthermore going slow, give the enemy more time to organize already while you still plan on fighting makes that comparison seems like a wash.

[Akerlof]

RDM42 wrote:

If you SWAT and retreat, rest up for eight hours heal and recharge, you think they aren't going to use that time to gather up their forces, prepare an ambush, or ready a united counter strike? You think that when the party pulls back to recuperate that the denizens of the place are just going to sit down in place and play solitaire until they return?

The thing is, you're less likely to need to rest for the night after SWATing 5 rooms than if you are to go through those 5 rooms slowly: Your mid-duration buffs (Blur, Prayer, Fly, Protection from Evil, etc.) will have been up for all the encounters and your short term buffs (Haste, Displacement, Divine Power, etc.) will last for a couple encounters or more. That means you'll take less damage and do more damage to your enemies during those fights, or at least use fewer castings of those buffs. Also, you'll give your enemies less time to react in the first rush. So, once your mid duration buffs end and you backtrack to see what you've missed, you're no more likely to need to sleep than a group that spent their time investigating every room as they came to it. You can consolidate, reassess the situation, and give yourself a physical buffer from enemies 6+ rooms away who investigate. (Drop an Alarm spell, or even spend a round putting up a bell on a string, and you're now the ambusher instead of the ambushed.)

[RDM42]

Believe it or not, I'm mostly anti SWAT.

[Matthew Downie]

RDM42 wrote:

Believe it or not,

I'm mostly anti SWAT.

I don't particularly like SWAT

it's more fun stop and chat
to enemies before a combat
but Adventure Paths don't tend to reward that.

[Anzyr]

I can't think of many situations that rewards that. Can you imagine if that was how the SWAT operate in real life?

SWAT 1: Ok, the front door is locked. We have a battering ram, but lets instead see if Jones' lockpicking is up to snuff instead.

[Artanthos]

JoeJ wrote:

I don't understand. Do you mean you expect to finish cleaning out the entire dungeon in 2-4 minutes? Unless it's a 1-room dungeon I don't see how that would be possible.

Quite possible. Try staying in round-to-round mode while moving through a dungeon and see how long it actually takes to cover ground.

Even with 1/2 move speed to allow perception checks, you are still double moving 30' per round. If the party has a trap spotter, you can safely move at 60' per round.

Your typical PFS scenario, with 4 encounters, would run less than two minutes in game-time.

[RDM42]

Huh. Works for us. Or for my players on aps. Of course, I guess that depends on the GM. I find when you treat the sentient opponents like they are in fact sentient beings...

[Anzyr]

They are sentient beings. Sentient beings the party has strong differences of opinion with. Who probably are not going to cooperate with you when you plan to stop their plan to revive their ancient master.

[RDM42]

Anzyr wrote:

They are sentient beings. Sentient beings the party has strong differences of opinion with. Who probably are not going to cooperate with you when you plan to stop their plan to revive their ancient master.

Plenty of APs have plenty of combats that would logically be end able by something other than charging in with swords drawn.

[Anzyr]

Ya, you don't SWAT into those. You SWAT into the ones that can't be. Hence why you need the buff spells. Once you start combat you are kind of committed.

[RDM42]

Anzyr wrote:

Ya, you don't SWAT into those. You SWAT into the ones that can't be. Hence why you need the buff spells. Once you start combat you are kind of committed.

But when you are swatting room to room you kinda short circuit anything but combat. Not to many things will talk to you when you charge in with swords drawn and spells blazing.