Well, there is no reason why the OP discussion couldn't continue, while we're enjoying our little Conanesque argument here. Don't mind us at all ;)
my most recent inspirations for Barbarian characters:
Cnaiur - from the Prince of Nothing
Karsa Orlong - from Malazan Book of the Fallen
It's on Encore tonight. I'm recording it to watch it later.
N.S. it's on, Conan the Barbarian has something to do with Lent!
Bilbo and Frodo now? That is simply hurtful. And about Thing In The Crypt, it seems to me that story was based on a fragment called Wolves On The Border. Here is an example of Big Does Not Mean Dumb: Conan followed Zaporoskan into the jungle after not eating a poison fruit like the other men. He then killed Zaporoskan by surprise standing directly in front of him--these things are unusual. Conan was not average, obviously he can't be called the not average guy who was just like everybody else. It is there, but you don't see it. Howard used Goetia, a form of symbolism, to make Conan seem to be acting normaly while he did unusual things and survived things that even uncommon persons could not.
Bilbo and Frodo now? That is simply hurtful. And about Thing In The Crypt, it seems to me that story was based on a fragment called Wolves On The Border. Here is an example of Big Does Not Mean Dumb: Conan followed Zaporoskan into the jungle after not eating a poison fruit like the other men. He then killed Zaporoskan by surprise standing directly in front of him--these things are unusual. Conan was not average, obviously he can't be called the not average guy who was just like everybody else. It is there, but you don't see it. Howard used Goetia, a form of symbolism, to make Conan seem to be acting normaly while he did unusual things and survived things that even uncommon persons could not.
Or, and I find this much more likely, you're reading far more into the character than was put there.
Bilbo and Frodo now? That is simply hurtful. And about Thing In The Crypt, it seems to me that story was based on a fragment called Wolves On The Border. Here is an example of Big Does Not Mean Dumb: Conan followed Zaporoskan into the jungle after not eating a poison fruit like the other men. He then killed Zaporoskan by surprise standing directly in front of him--these things are unusual. Conan was not average, obviously he can't be called the not average guy who was just like everybody else. It is there, but you don't see it. Howard used Goetia, a form of symbolism, to make Conan seem to be acting normaly while he did unusual things and survived things that even uncommon persons could not.Or, and I find this much more likely, you're reading far more into the character than was put there.
Again, Conan is wated on you. Your beefcake barbarian falls short.
Again, Conan is wated on you. Your beefcake barbarian falls short.Bilbo and Frodo now? That is simply hurtful. And about Thing In The Crypt, it seems to me that story was based on a fragment called Wolves On The Border. Here is an example of Big Does Not Mean Dumb: Conan followed Zaporoskan into the jungle after not eating a poison fruit like the other men. He then killed Zaporoskan by surprise standing directly in front of him--these things are unusual. Conan was not average, obviously he can't be called the not average guy who was just like everybody else. It is there, but you don't see it. Howard used Goetia, a form of symbolism, to make Conan seem to be acting normaly while he did unusual things and survived things that even uncommon persons could not.Or, and I find this much more likely, you're reading far more into the character than was put there.
Please explain how he is wasted on me? Since you're the only person to ever suggest that he is in fact a magician, I would contend that the burdon of proof is on you.
So you would use a Survival Check to not eat poison? What is the DC of surviving your next adventure, then you can level before dinner!
So you would use a Survival Check to not eat poison? What is the DC of surviving your next adventure, then you can level before dinner!
Ok then, Perception check to notice the fruit is poisoned. No matter. Where is the Magic Missile?
I once played a 3.0 barbarian/monk who changed alignment between classes when a magic item blew up in his face in a temple (don't remember the exact reason). It was legal; by becoming lawful he lost his rage powers and other barbarian powers associated with being chaotic, but that was the only legal fallout. He then went on to be that prestige class where you destroy magic items to get cool powers, but you are not allowed to use magic items or benefit from spells (had to attempt saves vs. healing, etc.).
Or something like that...
A Forsaker. I had a friend who played an epic level Forsaker who would carry around a backpack full of Wish Scrolls to tear up at the beginning of combat. Ridiculous character, that one.
Conan is soooo easy to make with PAIZO rules.
He is a simple Barbarian 16/Rogue 4 (rogue levels are scattered in there in 2 groups of 2)
Barbarian Skills: Acrobatics, Clomb, Craft (wpn), Perception, Ride, Survival.
Rogue Skills: Stealth, Appraise, Bluff, Diplomacy, Linguistics, Proffesion (sailor)Feats: Throw anything is needed, Track, others as you see fit tho he almost never wears heavy armoyr he does eventually so come 18th + level he needs heavy armour proficiency.
Rogue abilities: Ledge Waler, Fast Stealth.
Barbarian Abilities: Quick Reflexes, Strength Surge, Renewed Vigour, Clear Mind, Moment of Clarity, Fearless Rage, Superstition, Unexpected Strike.
Fast Move, Rage (+2 vs will), Indom Will, d12, DR (lets not forget AC,DR,HP are constructs all combine to show toughfness focusing on any one in story terms is irrelevant), Evasion, Trap Sense, Sneak Attack, Disable Device, Locate Traps.... and stacking uncanny dodge to never be flanked or supprised.
Fighter my foot, he is cold like a wolf is cold... rage doesn't mean yelling and howling like a wounded jackal even if lesser weak civilised people in life like...
Yeah, looks pretty good. It's a minor debate swapping a few barbarian levels for fighter. Four levels of rogue seems about right. Regardless of the specific makeup your approach here looks pretty solid.
I still posit 20 levels is too much -- albeit, of course, needed for actual gameplay.
I don't recall, off-hand, if Conan truly didn't receive any military training later in his career - he did in the comic stories, which I recall better than the books. Even so, there is no mechanical need for fighter levels, per se....
Well, neither there is much need for rogue, but just like fighter levels they don't hurt.
Actually a 1 level fighter dip representing Conan's involvement with various military groups would provide the armour proficiency, and an extra trick (feat) and perhaps even class bonus to profession and knowledge dungeoneering and engineering - even if Conan invested just one rank into them. But really it isn't needed at all.
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And I love the thought of Vultan the Barbarian...with wings, right? Hopefully he's not a Raptoran from 3.5, the mighty winged race that had to rest every few rounds of flying. (No wonder they never got much press.) Brian Blessed even does Shakespeare like a barbarian.
Not that I have a problem with the many conan posts...lots of literary discussion as well as interesting PC-build talk, making me want to finally read Conan.
Nah, he'd be human (I prefer humans, especially in Pathfinder), so I'd axe the wings. It was all about the attitude, not the hawkman stuff. :)
Personally, I've never had any interest in Conan beyond the movies. Just never really interested me.
"Outside his own kingdom, the hunter becomes the hunted!"
Rogue is needed for core abilities:Evasion (he uses alot), Stealth (he uses alot), Disable device, Ledge Walker, Fast Stealth (used alot).
Further Linguistics, Diplomacy, Bluff, Appraise.
"Instantly his hair-trigger suspicions were aroused. "Are
you leading me into a trap?"
Eh...not really. He doesn't have evasion. There is no instance I can think of where he takes no damage from something that he would otherwise taken half from i.e. aoe spells. He does react quickly to traps and ambushes (even when he is trapped by them) which represents his TRAP SENSE which is a barbarian ability.
Anyone can use stealth, and yes I would concede he certainly has that maxed. Disable device? Not sure. Ledge walker? Nah acrobatics ranks.
Linguistics because he speaks other languages? You get that benefit be it a class skill or not. Diplomacy he certainly doesn't have, bluff probably only a few ranks, but plenty of Intimidate.
My point is with the way that the PF skill system works there's no NEED for multiclassing. The only thing Rogue offers really is sneak attack, which I'm unsure he's ever done. Ambushed people? Sure, but not precise stabbing. When he kills someone he often cleaves them in two, which is more of a critical thing.
Here's my Conan the Barbarian. Build during the majority of his Howard stories, not king yet, not epic per se, but very powerful.
Conan the Cimmerian
Medium Humanoid (Human)
Barbarian 16
28 Point Buy (he is certainly beyond Epic)
Str-22 (10 points, +2 Racial, +4 Level)
Dex-14
Con-14
Int-14
Wis-12
Cha-12
Feats-Power Attack, Dodge, Toughness, Cleave, Catch Off Guard, Improvised Weapon Mastery, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Leadership
Rage Powers-Animal Fury, Superstition, Low-Light Vision, Improved Damage Reduction x2, Unexpected Strike, Surprise Accuracy and Raging Swimmer (ok that's silly, but dude climbs on a boat in the middle of the ocean in The Pool of the Black One).
Skills-Acrobatics +15, Bluff +10, Climb +14, Intimidate +20, Linguistics +3 (Five Languages), Knowlege (Nature) +7, Perception +20, Profession (Sailor) +6, Ride +10, Sense Motive +10, Stealth +15, Survival +20, Swim +15
HP: 180 (he rolled above average tee-hee)
its smurfy man its all smurfy...
but for the smurfing record, Conan was a smurfing barbarian in culture only, he Was a smurfing fighter mc with smurfing sothing else.
well he could of bee na smurf, papa smurf always got smurfette, and Conan got all the girls.... so He could of been a smurf
...
If you want to say OMG a fighter dip is NEEDED for a powerful warrior build as otherwise it SUXORZ I agree. That however is different to Robert E Howards Conan who never drilled, was never formally taught and is often compared to other fighters who use skill where he uses ferosity to sunder their weadons and heads !!
I thought that I already said that they are NOT needed. I aggree that Conan sometimes did a lot of Rogue like things, but the question is, whether he actually did them because he had levels in the class, or simply invested enough ranks into the skills. there are quite a few barbarian abilities that allow similar results.
Skills are now much easier to get. My paladin whom I play in a different compaign uses his skill points for social skills as much as he uses the typical ride and other stuff. As a result he can play citern just as well as a bard three levelst below him, knows how to dance a little. He often does bard-like things and yet he doesn't have any levels in that class.
while I am definitely a huge conan book fan, my general inspiration for barbarians would have to be guts from the berserk comics and animated series. I find this amusing seeing as how berserk was very heavily inspired by conan.
personally i could buy conan as a barbarian, i just would see it being played in a different manner than i usually see barbarians played.
Yup, Conan actually uses his brain for something more than just filling the cavity in his head.
It would be nice to see Conan make an appearance in Worldscape.
Man, statting out Conan is pure nightmare... attributes are simple enough, put 18 everywhere, maybe 20 in Str, Dex and/or Con... but balancing his multiclassing is pure nightmare, How many levels of Rogue? Ranger? Fighter? Barbarian? anything else?
I still have the old Conan Unchained modules from first edition. It has Conan listed as a Fighter 13/Thief 7.
His stats array is as follows:
STR 18/90 (I'd probably just bump that to 19 for PFRPG)
DEX 18
CON 18
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 17
He's shown being proficient with all swords, bows, axes, club, mace and dagger.
Skills in fletcher, forester, gambler, hunter, sailor and trapper.
It looks like he has a form of uncanny dodge as he is only surprised on a "1 in 8".
Fraggit, and I always thought that Conan was the yardstick for 18/00.
and with the current rules with wisdom score influencing will saves, and Int reflecting on skill points he needs more of both to be true to the stories... my own eval for a 3.5/ PF Conan that reflects the stories would be
Barbarian 5/Fighter 7/Ranger 3/ Rogue 5
Now, if you want to exchange some Barb levels and fighter levels so he can have more skill points in climb, ride, survival or the like, I won't argue with you, I gave him fighter levels in the first place because he regularly wears chainmail, and even plate in some stories.
STR 18
INT 14 as an absolute minimum, more likely 16 or even 18
WIS 18
DEX 18
CON 20
CHA 18
I don't know the stories at all, but could Conan be a slayer?
Heyyy... If he's got rogue levels, he might substitute slayer levels... but he's a master of natural environments, so he'll need barb/ranger levels (I stopped his ranger levels at 3 because at 4 he gets features [spells and nature bond] that the character of the stories definitely lacks), and he'll need fighter levels because he needs the heavy armor proficiency. Also, even though he's not the pure berserker Kull was, I feel that barbarian levels and rage powers, or combat feats fit the character more than sneak attacks and rogue/slayer powers.
he'll need fighter levels because he needs the heavy armor proficiency.
He could also spend a feat on it, or be an Armored Hulk barbarian.
That's possible, but for some reason, I see him more as having picked up fighter levels during his numerous stints as a mercenary then again, if he was going to take a barb archetype, I might see him more as an invulnerable rager... or I might need to recheck all the archetypes to find one that really fits, but I don't really see him as an armored hulk, heavy armor is something he picked up later in his career (I assume he started off as barbarian, then took some rogue or possibly slayer levels, but I feel more rogue, and then took the rest of his barbarian levels and took ranger and fighter levels... if you follow the traditional order of the stories for his career, the ones where he wears heavy armor are pretty late in the cycle)
What's the heaviest armor he ever wore in the novels (not counting cover artwork, if any, as that is typically commissioned by the publisher)?
full plate, at least twice, in The Scarlet Citadel and the Hour of the Dragon (aka Conan the Conqueror).
and I don't count anything not written by Howard himself... The stuff by De Camp and Carter is clearly inferior, bad imitation by people who did not understand the essence of Howard's work, and I've not read the stuff by Offutt, Maddox Roberts and others.
I think it would be the armor in "Hour of the Dragon". He doesn't wear it, but his armor is put on someone else in order to disguise that person as king Conan.
"...clad him in Conan's armor of black plate-mail, with a vizored salade..."
Unfortunately, plate-mail isn't specific, but I think that puts him in heavy armor.
oops, I'd forgotten, so that's only the battle in The Scarlet Citadel... then again, if he had plate armor ready for him in HotD, you can assume he was trained in wearing it... and that's the battle at the *start* of HotD you're quoting, does he not wear full armor later in the novel? sorry for my bad memory, it's been some years I've not revised my Conan stuff... trying not to get tired of it through too closely spaced readings.
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Experiment: explain Conan's remarkable ability to reroll and eventually make will saves after initially blowing them, frequently to the spells and SLAs of powerful casters. He must do this without magic items, help from allies, or the Superstitious barbarian archetype (because that replaces Trap Sense, which we know he has -- in fact, one could easily argue that Conan's depiction in the novels and Savage Sword graphic series comprise the template for the core archetype's features).
Alignment: initially chaotic-neutral (arguably even chaotic-evil at times), then wandering toward neutral-good as he developed in character (e.g., king of Aquilonia).
01 barbarian1 [core], Raging Vitality, Extra Rage
02 barbarian2 [uncanny dodge][rage power:Superstition]
-- Given that Conan has seldom (ever?) received a "buff" from an ally caster, Superstition is the likeliest choice for the first rage power. Conan's mistrust of magic is frequently mentioned.
A brief word on rogue: Yes, Conan is often a thief and an outlaw, but he doesn't appear to exhibit RPG rogue class features that are absent in most other classes, such as sneak-attack bonus damage, evasion, or proclivity for magic item use, etc.). Stealth and infiltration by climbing, swimming, and jumping (Acrobatics), are all things that a barbarian can easily do as they're class skills based off physical attributes. He has everything he needs in those two levels for "Tower of the Elephant".
03 Fighter1 [Unamed]([Improved Unarmed Strike][Dragon Style]), Power Attack
--This represents time spent in gladiator slave pits (1982 film); he learns to fight with his hands as well as a bewildering array of close exotic weapons, ignore difficult terrain, and begins piling up Fortitude save via multiclassing.
04 Samurai1 [Sovereign Blade|Dogmatic Denial(off chaotic alignment, then eventually good)][Resolve][Order of the Hammer]
--Result of training under the "war masters" of "the East" before being freed. Conan picks up more exotic weapon proficiencies, heavy armor proficiency, gains a ridiculous bonus to Acrobatics while jumping, gains saving-throw rerolls, and gets better saves versus aligned spells. (While Conan doesn't typically use hammers, Order of the Hammer's box-text perfectly encapsulates his general outlook on life.) Diplomacy becomes a class skill -- which will be useful, as Conan has a mouth on him....
05 Ranger1 [Freebooter:Freebooter's Bane][Skirmisher], Antagonize
--Conan was adept at swaying pirate crews and mercenary troops into switching their allegiance to him, usually before or after goading the existing leader into an inadvisable duel with him.
06 & up: Fourteen more levels of Freebooter/Skirmisher Ranger. (Skirmisher tricks: Deft Stand, Ranger’s Counsel, Skill Sage, Surprise Shift, Rattling Strike, Second Chance Strike, Vengeance Strike, Trick Shot)
Uh what? Samurai? Order of the Hammer (never heard of that one, I must lack the proper splat book, but while the edicts stick, the abilities don't)? training under the " war masters of the east" (where's that from... sounds more like the non canon character from the MIlius movie than the Howard one)? I can't really agree with that.
and yeah, I fully agree with COnan's ability to sway large groups... I generally translate that by giving him a 18 charisma, but if there are other mechanical ways to do that, I'd like to know what splatbook those are from. I don't know about the freebooter archetype (but yeah, it feels good, except the magic at high level), and tend to restrict his ranger levels under lvl4 so he won't have access to spells, even though he DOES use "magic" in Beyond the Black River.
The armor described at the beginning of Hour of the Dragon is lost on the battlefield. However, I found an earlier and very explicit reference to him wearing heavy armor.
"At her command they brought harness to replace Conan's chain-mail - gorget, sollerets, cuirass, pauldrons, jambes, cuisses and sallet. When Yasmela again drew the curtains, a Conan in burnished steel stood before his audience. Clad in the plate-armor, visor lifted and dark face shadowed by black plumes that nodded above his helmet."
The chain-mail being replaced is mentioned covering his knees shortly before this. So he was proficient in medium armor before he became Yasmela's general.
I don't know about training with eastern masters. The Kozaki seem middle eastern and he learns the style of his later horsemanship from them.
Conan uses magic in Beyond the Black River. He writes some words written in the language from when men and beasts spoke the same language to ward off animals that worshiped Jhebbal Sag.
"I saw it carved in the rock of a cave no human had visited for a million years,' muttered Conan, 'in the uninhabited mountains beyond the Sea of Vilayet, half a world away from this spot. Later I saw a black witch-finder of Kush scratch it in the sand of a nameless river. He told me part of its meaning - it's sacred to Jhebbal Sag and the creatures which worship him."
Conan's resistance to magic is described in one of the other stories. Much of the Hyborian Age magic is based on civilization. The weakness created in men by civilizing them renders them weak to those who know how to manipulate the civilizing effect. Since Conan isn't civilized, that sort of low magic does nothing to him. Other forms of magic seem to be based on poisons which Conan is also resistant to simply due to being large and healthy. However, the heavy hitters in the Conan universe are more than capable of harming him with magic. Rules wise, it's more like treating him as a native outsider than a magic resistant human. Maybe the Atlantean blood of Cimmerians is very potent. Conan typically recieves magical assistance in the form of items. The blessing on his sword in Phoenix on the sword, and the braided hair belt that wards him from magic in... some other book. I can't recall which.
Uh what? Samurai? Order of the Hammer (never heard of that one, I must lack the proper splat book, but while the edicts stick, the abilities don't)? training under the " war masters of the east" (where's that from... sounds more like the non canon character from the MIlius movie than the Howard one)? I can't really agree with that.I use to care a lot more about the whole "L. Sprague mangled Howard's legacy" thing than I do now. Aside from Schwarzenegger not being able to act, the Milius movie is a very entertaining romp (and far better than any of the crappy TV shows) that I would wager more people have seen than have read the books, and it's aged quite well, the soundtrack in particular.
I fully agree with Conan's ability to sway large groups... I generally translate that by giving him a 18 charisma, but if there are other mechanical ways to do that, I'd like to know what splatbook those are from.As you might very well imagine, he has a very high intimidate score, but I don't know if I'd consider his charisma excessive. I note that it's not enough to forestall the constant treachery-plotting by "friends" behind his back. I figure he's a 14 or so. (If it seems like he has an 18 charisma, it's probably because he's usually standing around a bunch of 7s.)
...I don't know about the freebooter archetype (but yeah, it feels good, except the magic at high level), and tend to restrict his ranger levels under lvl4 so he won't have access to spells, even though he DOES use "magic" in Beyond the Black River.
The second stacked archetype, Skirmisher, trades out all Ranger spellcasting.
Freebooter is in Pirates of the Inner Sea; Skirmisher in the APG.
Conan uses magic in Beyond the Black River. He writes some words written in the language from when men and beasts spoke the same language to ward off animals that worshiped Jhebbal Sag.
"I saw it carved in the rock of a cave no human had visited for a million years,' muttered Conan, 'in the uninhabited mountains beyond the Sea of Vilayet, half a world away from this spot. Later I saw a black witch-finder of Kush scratch it in the sand of a nameless river. He told me part of its meaning - it's sacred to Jhebbal Sag and the creatures which worship him."
I don't know if I'd call copy-pasting some runes you saw as "using magic", unless the world of Conan is so high-mana that anybody can make that work. (I'm inclined to just give him Additional Traits [Dangerously Curious + something else], and call it good.)
My point isn't that he should have spell casting levels, but that his distrust of magic is overstated. The idea that he rarely used magic items is also just wrong, as he premiers gaining one and picks up several throughout his career. Conan is a resurrection of Kull the conqueror set in a more magical world and Conan's adventures reflect that. I'd also take issue with the "order of the hammer" option, as might-makes-right is the exact opposite of his belief. He doesn't challenge others to prove himself, he does so to remove them from power.
Many of the people who plot against Conan are either doing so under threat, or those who Conan has displaced from power who are now biding their time in order to return to it. They all still universally fear and respect him, with those who plotted his assassination stating clearly that without him no other person could unify the Aquilonians.
The only weapons he uses consistently are his bare hands, a broadsword, an axe, a spear, a bow, a dagger, or a dagger and broadsword together. His main weakness is being surrounded as he fights off tens of men with a rock behind him and sits with his back to a wall in scenes where he expects an ambush of some form. That being the case, it's unlikely that he has uncanny dodge. He's also perfectly capable at fighting full force while maintaining remaining silent, so rage is completely out as well.
He also frequently kills powerful opponents without being seen, ending fights in a single strike that end up taking him quite a bit of effort once spotted. Sneak attack is a good candidate, but we can't use rogue since uncanny dodge is a no go. Slayer really is a good choice for Conan. He'd need some brawler for the flexibility and unarmed training. The plate armor could well just be a feat without the need of a class.