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I searched around and read the class guides and whatnot but nothing really worked for my character build, unless I was missing something.
So my character is, as the title states, a Dex-based Two-Weapon Fighter. He is the party leader and moral compass, being basically a Paladin with the class abilities of a Fighter. Also, he was modeled originally on an Apache warrior but that was before he got ported over to Pathfinder and Golarion. Now he is an Andoran Eagle Knight, however, he still fights tomahawks (throwing axes) and has war clubs as backup weapons. The idea is to keep him light an mobile while still keeping him formidable with a primary weapon that is both melee and ranged.
The other big thing I am trying to achieve with this build is to have him work great in stages. He is being made for Second Darkness (no spoilers please) and I want to maximize him for the level ranges of each adventure (1-3, 4-6, 7-9, 10-12, 13-14, and 15-16). This way if we quit out after a certain adventure I won't be left without some cool ability.
With all of the options I have found myself starved for feats in the low levels but with nothing to take at higher levels. I am concerned that while he may start out strong he will get weaker and less effective as time goes on. I have had this problem with characters in the past and it sucks.
So here is the build:
Aaron Proudheart - Human Fighter
Ability Scores (25 points): Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 16.
Chapter One
1 - Skill Focus (diplomacy), Two-Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw
2 - Weapon Focus (Throwing Axe), Bravery +1
3 - Improved Initiative, Armor Training 1
Chapter Two
4 - Weapon Finesse, Dex 19
5 - Dodge/Antagonize, Weapon Training 1 (Axes)
6 - Weapon Specialization, Bravery +2
Chapter Three
7 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Armor Training 2
8 - Greater Weapon Focus, Dex 20
9 - Vital Strike, Weapon Training 2 (Hammers)
Chapter Four
10 - Double Slice, Bravery +3
11 - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Armor Training 3
12 - Greater Weapon Specialization, Dex 21
Chapter Five
13 - Two-Weapon Rend, Weapon Training 3 (Thrown)
14 - Penetrating Strike, Bravery +4
Chapter Six
15 - Improved Vital Strike, Armor Training 4
16 - Greater Vital Strike, Dex 22
The big problems with this build is the low AC early on and the reliance on other feats. With the idea of getting some cool new ability at the beginning of each chapter works okay for the first half but then kind of falls apart. Also the inclusion of Dodge/Antagonize is a tough choice. He needs an AC boost, though it may be a little late in the game when it comes around, but with his high Diplomacy Antagonize will keep foes off the squishies and give the rogues the opportunity to flank. Plus, he's kind of the selfless defender type who would be drawing enemies to him anyway. Hit points are also a concern with his lower Con score and I thought of including Toughness in there but didn't know where. I can always swap his Str and Con but I wanted a higher damage output. His DPR is based on landing his multiple attacks so Str seemed important.
I looked at the TWF archetypes but nothing grabbed me. I need the Armor Training to wear decent armor and keep his AC up.
I could really use some help here through each chapter.
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I'd like to have some cool new ability at the opening of each chapter as kind of my signature new ability to carry me through, such as a new TWF feat or whatnot. I'm at a loss on how to arrange the feats in the second half to maximize this since there is so much and the build starts to break down. I really dislike Double Slice but I need it for the admittedly cool Two-Weapon Rend.
My girlfriend accused me of metagaming by dividing up the build by the chapter levels but I don't see an issue. When I built this character (with the old rolled stats) for the now aborted Skull & Shackles game I split him up in 5 level blocks because the math was easy and his TWF feats fell in just right, so this isn't that different.
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If you're building towards a charisma build, Get Intimidate and Dazzling display; your damage output is relatively low anyway, so having the option to debuff opponents is "nice".
Second, look at the "two weapon" archtype:
[url]http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fig hter-archetypes/two-weapon-warrior[/url]
It addresses some of the issues (you end up with +1 AC for every 3 levels, and always get your Weapon Training with all weapons, as long as you use two at once). At high levels it addresses the issue that two-weapon fighting really sucks if you have to close in with the opponent; in short, it takes the archtype and vastly improves it.
One alternative may be to focus even more on the Intimidate / Antagonize; throw in Weapon focus and dazzling display. This will make you debuff and such, since your damage output is fairly low. Of course, if you're going to do that, you should put on full plate and a Tower Shield. Basically the idea on that build would be get up there, Antagonize to force them to attack your nearly-invincible AC.
This build just seems like it needs to focus a lot more; you're trying to do a few things which a fighter is not particularly good at. A rogue (or, with your high charisma, more likely a ninja) would actually do most of this better; since they could take advantage of the skill points (and they get "feats" that help their diplomacy and such with their rogue tricks). Just a thought; it's rare that I recommend rogues, but in this case it looks like you're trying to have a fighter specialize in rogue effects, so you would probably have more fun switching over.
Also, if you're skill focusing @ 1, there's a human alternative that gives you a bonus Skill focus @ 8th and 14th level that you should take... it's strictly better, since it is otherwise the same thing.
Martial characters are stronger earlier and get left behind a little as everyone advances. Not much you can do about that. Cool Concept and I think that its neat that your trying to separate out the feats by book. So on your build...
Why Vital Strike Line? Seems a little odd for the two-weapon fighter.
Are you doing something to make diplomacy a class skill? If not you should use the Intimidate version of Antagonize. Intimidate is a class skill and the bonus you would initially get from skill focus diplomacy would be free as a class skill bonus.
I am not sold on the Antagonize either, but it may be in your play style for fun. If so, that’s cool.
Also with your high of dex I think the Improved Initiative is overkill. You should be going pretty high in the initiative anyway, and a lot of time you may want your Spellcasters to go just ahead of you.
Also, consider maybe a switch to Ranger instead of fighter. Since you want the two-weapon fighting feats anyway, Ranger would give you those feats in the fighting style. It might give your more bang for your buck. However, If you want to stick with fighter that’s cool too.
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Focused Study is awesome for what I'm doing. I essentially get two free Skill Focus feats, which will help bolster my rather crappy skills.
My main problem with going Rogue (or especially Ninja) is that the character is a Paladin he just is built as a fighter so he doesn't sneak attack and her certainly doesn't use poison. He will call out enemies and allow them the opportunity to surrender and all sorts of other annoying Paladin code type behaviors.
That being said, I actually kind of enjoy playing Rogues and my backup character is a Sniper who is all about sneak attacks and stealth.
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I plugged in Vital Strike for lack of better options. It's good to know that the lack of viable options as I advance is just an effect of the class and not my lack of system mastery. lol
I am going with Skill Focus at first level (or Focused Study if the GM allows) so that gives me Diplomacy. Antagonize just seemed like a neat option and I plugged it in for fun. Dodge seems to have more practical use however.
I chose Improved Initiative because I wanted to get the drop on enemies every time. The character is designed to be fast but I guess I could drop it in favor of something like Toughness or Dodge.
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Build him as a Paladin then; he's not really using his extra feats, and paladins are much better at damage soaking front line. Also, Paladins do an excellent job of two-weapon fighting when using their smite ability; since the smite applies to both weapons.
But rogues can be do-gooders as well; a lawful good rogue doesn't steal or use poisons, but will trip up the bad guys.
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Ranger isn't too bad an option now that I look at it. It doesn't give a whole lot to the concept aside from the TWF feats for free, however. The spells don't work for me but the Skirmisher isn't a bad alternative. I'll have to take a closer look and see how it looks.
The only reason I rebuilt this character as a Fighter over being a Paladin is that it was not possible to pull off the concept with that class. The considerably increased number of feats of the Fighter seemed like a natural choice.
I've made Fighters in 3.5 that relied on medium armor and they worked out just fine, however, this is not 3.5. Armor Training keeps me in medium armor through most of the game without sacrificing my high Dex bonus. Two-Weapon Warrior offsets this pretty well early on but it looks like it allows AC to stay moderate after certain levels by eschewing Armor Training in favor of other abilities that don't boost AC.
My major concern here is defensibility and damage output. He has a low AC because of his reliance on light armor and doesn't have the HP to take the hits. His DPR is low because he uses a d6 weapon and has a low Str. Now, I could drop his Cha to 14 and use those 5 build points to boost his Str but that only ups his dmg by a point.
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I tried building him as a Paladin and I couldn't get the TWF feats to plug in very well.
I don't mean to keep shooting down other class options in any way. I would consider other classes if it meant the concept stayed intact and remained effective. if you guys want to throw out some build options and I will gladly take a look at them.
Give up on the vital strike stuff and go for spring attack. Granted only good on single attacks, but helps. Also try looking at weapon master. It might work better for you as well. Or mobile fighter. Either fighter archetype works well with your flavor.
Also drop improved init, move quick draw to third, and pick up weapon finesse at first lvl, and dodge to 4th. That should help a lot actually. Traits can boost back up you init if you need it.
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I considered Mobility and Spring Attack but wasn't sure how to plug them in. The Vital Strike stuff was just a lack of options. Weapon Master and Mobile Fighter are both really cool looking. I never considered them before. Mobile Fighter would help considerably with the low AC because I could prevent full attacks from enemies.
I like Quick Draw at first level because the build relies on throwing weapons too. This way I can throw my weapons and have another in my hand immediately. If I wasn't concerned about using them ranged I'd switch to hand axes and have the higher crit multiplier.
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I'm only going to list the problems you will find as the build levels up. Along with a suggestion on how to fix them. To fix problem 5 you will have to change the core function of your concept.
1: Starting Con 12. You will want a starting Con 14, or higher. As you will have lower AC no matter what you do. You will need the extra HP. Why your at it work in toughness at a early level to prolong your characters life.
2: If your going Dex base combat you need to start with Weapon Finesse. There will be 3 levels in your build where your to hit will be far worse then every one else due to this. Your getting it any how change out one of the other starting feet's.
3: Vital Strike is almost useless for a two weapon fighter. Drop it for something else.
4: If your going to take Double Slice. It's a good idea. You need to take it early to get the most effect out of it.
5: The biggest problem with all two weapon fighting Dex builds. Is when you get to mid/high mid level play and almost every encounter has DR. You will see your damage not penetrate DR. The more you level. The more this becomes a problem for two weapon fighters.
You can move, draw two weapons (cause of two weapon fighting) and throw a weapon. Throwing two weapons at once might be a bad idea at early levels. Also, there is nothing wrong with using hand axes for base weapons (melee) and throwing for range. You will want toughness asap, before quick draw by a far shot. Even if you must lower Cha, Con is way more important. You can eventually use head bands to rase Cha back up. Only thing with mobile fighter is for a long time two weapon fighting is nearly impossible for it (full attack actions). You will want to look at the agile enchantment in one of the PFS books. Will help with damage.
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Originally my starting Con was 14 and my Str was 12 but I switched them right as I was posting this because I thought more damage was important. Now that I think of it, more attacks that hit will yield a higher DPR, especially when magic such as elemental effects are added to the weapons. To overcome DR at higher levels, a problem I did not foresee, I will make sure Penetrating Strike and Greater Penetrating Strike get in there. However, those feats seem to come a little late (levels 12 and 16) making there be a significant time that DR is a problem.
I'm going to rebuild him now using your guys' suggestions and see how he looks.
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If you don't like the spell casting aspect of the ranger, you could go trapper(UM). That Screams Apache warrior to me. You wouldn't really have the skill points to invest in the trapfinding side of the archetype, but you would be able to setup traps for foes as well as launch them on your tomahawks.
Also remember that if you boost up your strength, it is 1 more damage per hit. Later on that will add up to a lot of damage for a 2 weapon fighter. You just have to think if you would rather do 1*(# of attacks) more DPR, or have a +1 bonus on all Charisma based skill checks. The only thing this would affect on your current build is antagonize/diplomacy to my knowledge.
How does Agile work with Finessable weapons that can be thrown?
EDIT: I know Jack Rift mentioned it, but I'm actually not sure if this has been answered in the past. RAW, it seems like it would work thrown or melee, but I'm just curious if anyone has input.
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Agile is a neat idea for weapon enhancements. I was planning on elemental effects for an additional d6 on attacks. I'm probably going to get cheesy at some point in time and get myself some patriotic weapons.
Ability Scores: Str 14, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 14
Chapter One
1 - Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Focused Study (Diplomacy)
2 - Weapon Focus (Throwing Axe), Bravery +1
3 - Toughness, Armor Training 1
Chapter Two
4 - Quick Draw, Dex 19
5 - Dodge, Weapon Training 1 (Axes)
6 - Weapon Specialization, Bravery +2
Chapter Three
7 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Armor Training 2
8 - Double Slice, Focused Study (Acrobatics), Dex 20
9 - Mobility, Weapon Training 2 (Hammers)
Chapter Four
10 - Greater Weapon Focus, Bravery +3
11 - Two-Weapon Rend, Armor Training 3
12 - Penetrating Strike, Focused Study (????), Dex 21
Chapter Five
13 - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Training 3 (Thrown)
14 - Greater Weapon Specialization, Bravery +4
Chapter Six
15 - Spring Attack, Armor Training 4
16 - Greater Penetrating Strike, Dex 22
I'm not sure about the placement of Spring Attack. It seems kind of wasted so late in the game but Mobility is required and I don't care for that feat. I'm wondering if Mobility and Spring Attack are worth it given the way the feats play out.
I tried making him as a Two-Weapon Warrior, Weapon Master, and Mobile Fighter and none of them really worked out.
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What Traits look good? Given his extreme anti-slavery stance (a fact that made him Andoran when we made the switch) I was thinking Confidante to the Oppressed. Other than that something that boosts Initiative might supplement the lack of Improved Initiative.
Reactionary is a +2 to initiative.
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I'm looking at the second build and I'm seriously questioning Mobility and Spring Attack. Both are good feats but I don't know if they are the best I can take. The low AC should only be a major problem at low levels because I can supplement the AC through magic once I start getting up in levels. Spring Attack is great but since I rely on full attacking for DPR, especially at high levels, moving isn't as good a tactic.
I am thinking that maybe disarming is a decent tactic to aid the character. If an enemy loses their weapon they can't lay as much of a smackdown. I'll have to read the rules and brush up on that tactic.
I chose Reactionary and Confidante to the Oppressed for my traits.
Do you guys have any suggestions for a decent level 9 and level 15 feats? Perhaps something non-core? The GM opened it up to all the books, pending approval of non-core material so I've scoured the PRD but there are so many options I got kind of lost.
I believe there are weapons that get around needing Improved Disarm, specifically those with the Disarm keyword. I could be wrong, going to look into it later tonight.
EDIT: Nevermind, that's just the Tekko-Kagi, an exotic weapon. If you are super interested in getting disarms, you could grab that.
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Oooh, I like Piranha Strike. I am definitely taking that one.
In scouring the OGC I found a few feats that jumped out at me. Any thoughts on these feats?
Hammer the Gap – Ultimate Combat
Distance Thrower – Ultimate Combat
Opening Volley – Ultimate Combat
Piranha Strike – Sargava
Sliding Axe Throw – Dwarves of Golarion
Strike Back – Core Rulebook
For some reason, this build screams "monk" to me. You'd have to swap Cha and Wis though...but that makes more sense for an Apache to me anyway. Monk gives you more mobility, as you mentioned wanting, WIS to AC, and flurry of blows, which is better than TWF. Maybe I'm way off base here, but that's my impression.
I like the feat "Big Game Hunter". +1 attack, +2 damage on every attack vs. large or larger opponents.
And: Wildebob is right. A flurrying monk with a Tomahawk would be awesome. I also think FoB is superior to TWF.
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A monk flurrying? I don't know why I never thought that approach. Flurry is pretty awesome, plus class defense bonus and good saves...
Big Game Hunter sounds pretty neat. I also found these feats as some neat ideas.
Hammer the Gap – UC
Distance Thrower – UC
Opening Volley – UC
Piranha Strike – Sargava
Power Attack – CRB
Sliding Axe Throw – Dwarves
Strike Back – CRB
I don't know if the GM will let me take Sliding Axe Throw since it's in the book about Dwarves. I am seriously thinking Hammer the Gap will help boost DPR. Big Game Hunter might be a good late-game feat when I have a bunch of attacks and most opponents are large.
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Big Game Hunter has got me really thinking this might be a good array of feats.
Chapter One
1 - Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Focused Study (Diplomacy)
2 - Weapon Focus (Throwing Axe), Bravery +1
3 - Toughness, Armor Training 1
Chapter Two
4 - Quick Draw, Dex 19
5 - Dodge, Weapon Training 1 (Axes)
6 - Weapon Specialization, Bravery +2
Chapter Three
7 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Armor Training 2
8 - Double Slice, Focused Study (Acrobatics), Dex 20
9 - Hammer the Gap, Weapon Training 2 (Hammers)
Chapter Four
10 - Greater Weapon Focus, Bravery +3
11 - Two-Weapon Rend, Armor Training 3
12 - Penetrating Strike, Focused Study (????), Dex 21
Chapter Five
13 - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Training 3 (Thrown)
14 - Greater Weapon Specialization, Bravery +4
Chapter Six
15 - Big Game Hunter, Armor Training 4
16 - Greater Penetrating Strike, Dex 22
My girlfriend made a pretty scary TWF crit-whore build for the same game. Along with our dual dagger rogue, the GM will probably get annoyed with all the flurrying blades. lol