So how is it?


Council of Thieves


Almighty Paizo Community, I´m looking for some insights...

So far I´ve read the product descriptions for this AP but I´m still not sure if it´s for me or not. So my very basic question to those who have read it or even started playing:

How do you like it?

How does it compare to the other APs?

And what seems problematic?


I'm currently running it, and though we haven't come very far, the things I HAVE read for the future in this AP is awesome. There are some elements in part 2 especially, that I have never come across before in any adventure. Ever.

Problems? Well? You'd want to have players that want to make a difference, want to step up and have the guts to do it. There are a lot of scary/creepy stuff that is just absolutely wonderful and I can't wait to subject my players to it. :)

Can't help you with comparing it to other AP, since I don't have first hand experience with them, other than a mission abort sort of deal with RotRL.

Shadow Lodge

We're about 3/4 of the way through Part 2 now and I've read the entire AP as the group seems to have bought into its premise fairly well.

So far I love running CoT, and from what I can tell, my four players really enjoy it too. Frankly, Part 2 of this adventure is one of the best set of sessions I've ever DMed, and I attribute much of it to a theme that had my group doing things I never thought they'd even try to do in an RP setting. From there the adventures get more creepy, and the climax of part 4 reads like it will be spectacular.

The product itself is absolutely city based, and it is a bit railroady, but not so much so that it feels forced. I'd say the worst part of the AP we've encountered so far is the hook, which requires a certain amount of buy in from your players. If you haven't read through the entire first book (or even two), and provided your players a good outline of the kind of characters they would enjoy in this setting, they may have real problems accepting what their characters are expected to do.

If you're interested in city campaigns (there will be virtually no out-of-city adventuring), your players enjoy playing the "hero", and you can handle some pretty significant role-playing challenges (the challenges in these adventures are not all combat-based), you may want to read through it to see if it will meet your tastes.

Dark Archive

The group I'm running loves it. They claim the play section of The Sixfold Trial was one of the best gaming sessions they've ever had. They like how layers of the onion keep on being revealed to them as they make progress in the campaign.

We're about to start The Infernal Syndrome tonight. They are all hyped to go after the villian who has the other half of the artifact in their possession. Needless to say when all Hell breaks loose in the city they'll soon have to put that goal on the back-burner. The cool thing is they don't even see it coming......


MisterSlanky wrote:
I'd say the worst part of the AP we've encountered so far is the hook, which requires a certain amount of buy in from your players.

Agreed; I'd say that this adventure is the worst so far at accommodating the "random strangers meet in a bar for adventure" type of party (not that there's anything sacred about that tired old chestnut, of course).

Scarab Sages

I'm having fun running it, and my players seem to like it as well. The first module has some issues, such as the hook and the XP wonkiness (requires you to run a couple side adventures, which are described)

Those issues you can just read about on here and you'll find lots of advice on how to deal with it.

This AP requires semi-experienced players, or players who are fairly compliant with hooks.

It is basically about fighting for the people of westcrown versus the establishment. You don't have to be revolutionaries, but it helps, and you certainly can't side with the bad guys, which is plausible in the beginning. A DM can add more fluff to make the good-guy bad-guy distinction more clear.

The people of the city are not terribly happy with the government, at least with the local government. They say their mandatory prayers to Asomdeus, many secretly worship other gods, and Iomedae and Shelyn are tolerated by the government of Westcrown. The people are forced to stay indoors at night because shadow beasts stalk the streets, and the government seems to be ok with that. Crime has been going up and some poeple are getting tired of the incompetent/corrupt dottari and want to stand up to the thugs and monsters.

This AP has a lot of devils, as it is Cheliax, that is to be expected.

I've been a player in both Runelords and Second Darkness since they both began. Second darkness is about to end for us. RotRL will end by summer. The time difference had everything to do with the gamers.

Runelords had goblins and giants, Second Darkness had drow and demons. Council of Thieves has evil people and devils. Legacy of Fire has gnolls and fire elementals. (I'm about to be a player in that, and just from covers and the player's guide I've gleaned that)

Council of Thieves has more intrigue than the others, except for SD's "Endless Night"

I'd say it depends on the players and the DM.

Both RotRL and SeSD travel far distances in the APs. CoT stays primarily in Westcrown and its outskirts. The others go into higher levels, 15-17. CoT is medium advancement and only goes up to 13.

I've enjoyed each in their own ways.
If your group is into doing it their own way, or you've run your own games before, Kingmaker might be better. It will be medium advancement and goes up to level 18.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I haven't run it yet, but I would put it smack in the middle of the AP's on rating best to worst. So far I haven't been disappointed with any of them. SD I think is the one that needs the most work/help and even that one i think is good enough.

Shadow Lodge

Dark_Mistress wrote:
I haven't run it yet, but I would put it smack in the middle of the AP's on rating best to worst. So far I haven't been disappointed with any of them. SD I think is the one that needs the most work/help and even that one i think is good enough.

"Smack in the middle" would put another one worse than CoT. Which one other than SD is it? Just curious.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
MisterSlanky wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
I haven't run it yet, but I would put it smack in the middle of the AP's on rating best to worst. So far I haven't been disappointed with any of them. SD I think is the one that needs the most work/help and even that one i think is good enough.
"Smack in the middle" would put another one worse than CoT. Which one other than SD is it? Just curious.

For me it was LoF. Which I think has more to do with the setting of the AP didn't appeal to me a lot. I am really not a big fan of genies for example, which I am well aware makes my opinion biased.


Anyone dare to spoil the hook?

Scarab Sages

A woman walks up to each of the characters and invites them to a meeting at a tavern that is closed. She is very secretive. Then at the meeting she is nervous and then begins a speech that is treasonous. The meeting is disrupted and the PCs are forced, if they take the hook, to side with the woman.


I have limited experience with this as ive had to abandon this particular AP (not by choice I might add).

1) Campaign is fully Urban, I think Mother of Flies has a brief jaunt outside Westcrown IIRC but I think thats it.
2) As others have stated, your Players have to be willing to play characters that want to change things in the city for the good of all for maximum enjoyment.
3) Part 2 might be a hurdle for you if you have a group thats more action oriented as opposed to roleplayers(ymmv, as it was going to be for my current group). In my case, if I still had two of my older players part 2 might just have made our list of one of the best RP modules of all time.

Other than the above, the AP is fantastic.

My AP favorites (in order btw)...***

1)Rise of the Runelords - The pinnacle AP imho. Great mix of Wilderness exploration, dungeon-crawling, and urban campaigning. Solid plot and memorable NPCs.

2)Curse of the Crimson Throne - Primarily Urban, Awesome plot (possibly the best so far, again IMHO). This was very close for my number one spot but I love the traditional wilderness/dungeon crawly types a fraction more.

3)Legacy of Fire - Desert-themed in flavor but I love the wilderness aspect of it again. Some might not love the arabian flavor, I think its great. Good story, but jury's still out for me on this particular APs pocket dimension part. I need to read this one abit more for a better opinion.
We created characters for this originally but headed to Council of Thieves in the end when the new PFRPG rules were released.

4)Council of Thieves - For the reasons above it might not be for everyone. Our beginning had a few minor speed bumps (xp shifting, my players not used to playing selfless characters, etc).

5)Second Darkness - I had high hopes for this one. Had this been a primarily Underdark campaign along the vein of Night Below (2E) or the old GDQ series (AD&D), this would have been #2 for me, possibly #1 depending on how well it was done. Read the forums for this one, there are some great ideas on making this one alot better.

Hope this helps.

*** Please note that my taste in campaigns tends to lean toward the traditional wilderness, dungeon-crawly, underdark, etc mix. CoCT was a surprise to me being all sorts of awesome.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

MisterSlanky wrote:
...and it is a bit railroady, but not so much so that it feels forced.

So, here's the thing.

If a product doesn't FEEL forced, it's not really railroady. Similarly, if a chocolate bar tastes like oranges, it isn't really a chocolate bar.

We try VERY hard to make sure that our APs allow for a wide range of player choices, but (and I've said this before) the fact that we have a physical limit to the amount of words we can print in a volume, and the fact that your PCs do NOT have a physical limit as to what they can do... it's raw, basic science that makes it so that no matter what, you'll be able to perceive a written adventure as "railroady."

Even Kingmaker, which is our attempt to be as un-railroady as possible, might seem like a railroad if the PCs want to, say, leave the region the AP takes place in and go next door to Numeria or Brevoy. Or if they want to become pharaohs or presidents.

Shadow Lodge

James Jacobs wrote:
If a product doesn't FEEL forced, it's not really railroady. Similarly, if a chocolate bar tastes like oranges, it isn't really a chocolate bar.

You haven't had a Terry's Orange have you? ;-)

James Jacobs wrote:

We try VERY hard to make sure that our APs allow for a wide range of player choices, but (and I've said this before) the fact that we have a physical limit to the amount of words we can print in a volume, and the fact that your PCs do NOT have a physical limit as to what they can do... it's raw, basic science that makes it so that no matter what, you'll be able to perceive a written adventure as "railroady."

Even Kingmaker, which is our attempt to be as un-railroady as possible, might seem like a railroad if the PCs want to, say, leave the region the AP takes place in and go next door to Numeria or Brevoy. Or if they want to become pharaohs or presidents.

I told the players in my game virtually the same exact thing when I sat them down and said I was going to run one of the Paizo APs. Basically I told them that I don't have the time anymore to write up my own adventures or to adjust a pre-written adventure on the fly to whatever player whims may grasp them at any particular moment. I told them that since it's an AP, there is a story that needs to be told, and that they will need to "play along" occasionally to help me minimize hair pulling when trying to set-up custom content.

What I meant in my comment is that the AP is well written enough that with a little good planning, you can make the ideas feel like they are the ideas of the players and as a result the feeling of being railroaded is diminished significantly. Instrumental in this though was getting buy-in by the players of the concept. Once they realized that they're supposed to be heroes, and are supposed to help Westcrown help itself, they've been on-board with everything that's happened.

My original comment was meant as a complement, but it may not have come off as such.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Sunderstone if you swapped CoT and LoF it would be the same as my list for more or less the same reasons.


James Jacobs wrote:
Similarly, if a chocolate bar tastes like oranges, it isn't really a chocolate bar.

And here I thought Paizo was an open minded company. Clearly you're a chocolatist!


CoT is great if your GM loves playing up NPCs and really giving you the full experience. If you buy into the hook and make characters who want to kick ass, it's even better.

I will say there are some awesome parts and some bad ones. Almost all of #27's primary dungeon isn't fun-- DR, resistances, immunities, dominations, blindness, haunts, whatever, it's about one tenth as good as the Skinsaw House or w/e from RotRL. Almost all of #28's primary dungeon isn't very fun, but once you enter the inner ring it makes up for it.

I would like to say that the rest is alright, bordering on pretty good. The Sixfold Trial is hands down the best module I have ever read. Even the dungeon is amazing, creative, a blast to read and play through, which is something I haven't said since I read Skeletons of Scarwall. My group is halfway through #29, so we'll see how "Walcourt" and the finale fare.

One thing I will mention is that Paizo seems to forget that most people don't own gigantic maps, and this AP suffers from "two squares too big" syndrome. Please, Paizo, think of the children. I draw the maps for my group and I often slave away for an hour or more drawing these out with wet erase markers. The biggest map we own is 45x30~ or so, and it didn't fit all of the Asmodean Knot. Walcourt is almost too big for the map too. #27's map was so huge we had to represent it in miniature with sheets of graph paper, and it was needlessly huge because half of the areas weren't important. #28's map was gigantic and it just annoyed us. It looks like #30 has a plethora of small maps, and I'm just so pleased.

I will also admit that the maps are mostly easy to draw. This isn't Second Darkness with its endlessly frustrating rounded tear-shaped maps with multiple stories, so at least they're easy to draw... they're just too huge!


Dark_Mistress wrote:
Sunderstone if you swapped CoT and LoF it would be the same as my list for more or less the same reasons.

great minds and all that.... :)


Here's my perspective as an old-fart gamer who is now running a game again for the first time in over a decade.

I like a lot of the individual elements of this AP, but I'm struggling a bit with taking the body of work and repackaging it for my players.

Part of my problems are related to my shortcomings as a GM, and some are related to the desires of the group. This is my first AP as a GM, so I don't know if my issues are typical with all APs, or unique to this one.

The part I'm working through now is trying to pull elements forward to make it more integrated and feel less segmented. This includes: introducing NPCs earlier to give them a greater connection to the PCs before their plot device is used, having PCs be aware of important or common knowledge locations or events before they become relevant (eg, the Hagwood), and injecting more foreshadowing or dispensing of information a bit more organically.

I realize that some of my struggles are related to the fact that 6 authors are working separately on a high level theme, and there is a limit as to how much you can intermix elements across chapters. I don't know if this AP is average, better, or worse in this regard.

Something else I want to address is to make the Council of Thieves more of an obvious foe earlier in the AP. I'm not sure the subtle undercurrent early on will engage my players as it stands right now, although I might be wrong about that. For example, I think they'll need to start the Infernal Syndrome with the goal of thwarting the Council instead of saving Westcrown, even though success will achieve both.

I'm probably atypical in terms of how I to run games, but I thought I'd share this perspective in case there are any other anal-retentive types out there like me.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

So lame...so many words I typed, all gone with one false mis-click of the "tab" key...so upset right now...

Sigh.

In an effort to recreate without inadvertant destruction:

I think Council of Thieves is the most sandboxy and open ended AP that Paizo has produced, to date. Yes, there are certain plot points that have to be hit in order for the story to progress, but everything else is left up to the DM. One poster alluded to the need to find extra experience points during the first module. How to do it is left to you, though ideas are presented. In fact, at the beginning of each module are a series of possibilities all left to the DM to flesh out. The surrounding area is well described, but left open for exploration. The city itself has a huge area that has been abandoned and is being taken over by bands of goblins and other nasties. There are a plethora of NPCs and groups of questionable moral character to interact with. There's even a shadowy black market to find and patronize if you're so inclined.

Yes, the starting hook is tricky. If your group is selfish and wants to play "evil" characters (see some of the currently popular threads in the General Discussion area), you are going to have a very difficult time getting this AP going. Even if they are just the kind of players who merely want to level up their character and get more loot, this is probably not the path for you. However, if you take the time to give them Westcrown's background, show them its history, and introduce them to some of the NPCs around the city (this IS an RPG, right?), then I think you will create a group with a vested interest in Westcrown. Then, when that woman approaches them and says, "I have a matter of some importance I'd like to talk to you about," they are more likely to meet with her. After all, she saved one PC from being arrested for a crime he didn't commit, helped out another PC's mother when she was being mugged, and kept one drunken PC from staggering too far off the lighted streets one night when the shadow beasts were prowling. In other words, give them a reason to care. Otherwise, yes, your group is doomed to boredom as they "ride the railroad."

As a DM who loves to watch his players make decisions that are impactful on the area, this AP is easily the best one Paizo has done, yet. Rise of the Rune Lords was awesome (we are still playing it and are having a blast), but if ever there was a railroad, it is that kind of AP. Defeat monster A to find out about monster B who has information about monster C who is being controlled by monster D. The writing is phenominal, which makes it easy to get lost in the story. I think that's why that one isn't considered to be as much of a railroad as CoT. But, if you analyze the modules, you will see that there is very little choice of what to do in RotRL, while the possibilities are vast in CoT.

For what it's worth, I don't think any of the APs are bad. All of them are very unique. Even better, there is a huge amount of information that is player provided in these message boards that will enhance your experience with any of them. Take advantage of that, especially. Also, you can download the Player's Guides for this path and Legacy of Fire for free, and the player's guides for the first two paths are $2.00 each. For $4 and a few hours of reading you can get a good idea of what four out of the five published paths are like from your players' perspective. All the tools are available for a DM to find the right AP and turn it into an awesome experience.

Have fun.


FarmerBob wrote:


The part I'm working through now is trying to pull elements forward to make it more integrated and feel less segmented. This includes: introducing NPCs earlier to give them a greater connection to the PCs before their plot device is used, having PCs be aware of important or common knowledge locations or events before they become relevant (eg, the Hagwood), and injecting more foreshadowing or dispensing of information a bit more organically.

This is what I'm working through myself. Personally, I've added some more noble family infighting, changing some of the NPCs into nobles, even minor ones. But like you, I want to have my players be aware of the Mother of Flies from the beginning. I want to have them now about the female Vampire hunter that has come to fight the shadow creatures, even meet her. etc..

I started a thread regarding this, called the CoT Rumor Mill. Maybe a collaborative effort is in order.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

The Jade wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Similarly, if a chocolate bar tastes like oranges, it isn't really a chocolate bar.
And here I thought Paizo was an open minded company. Clearly you're a chocolatist!

worse, he's a transvirtual-chocolatist ;-)


This has been very helpful. Thanks a lot!

I will probably get the first installment and see if it hooks me. Further down the road however, I´m very excited about Kingmaker.

Thanks again and please keep it coming if you have more to mention.


I've been running it, and its going really well. The AP is wonderfully moody and dark, but you're going to want to flesh out the town as you see fit (my party has spent a LOT of time in the floating markets, and I really have written quite a bit of my own material for it).

I'll pick out some high/low lights, and you can take what you will from them.

Volume One

The opening is slow. Write yourself a 4-6 hour prequel adventure that hooks them into the game better (I ran the society scenario "Black Tide" I think it was called, then had them dispatched from Absalom to Westcrown. They arrived as the sun went down and watched a man that couldn't get inside dragged screaming into the night.

The sewers is fun. Throw the random chart to the wind, pick a few encounted that you like and go for it. You'll want to write up something powerful down here that the PC's can interact with in the future.

Rescuing Arael - this encounter is great. Can't tell you how pumped by pc's were to ambush something.

I would REALLY encourage you to make the darkness SCARY. Ignore the stats for Shadowgarms (they are cool, I just wanted it stronger) and just keep them frightened.

Volume Two

The play is awesome, and VERY fun. Print out a copy for everyone and hand them out, have them read it. My players were "eh" about it at first but they got REALLY into it. Really good stuff.

The Cornucopia can be hard to DM. I hated the idea of the players spending so much time at a dinner looking around through an empty mansion for a gate. It took too long, so I cut out the exploring the mansion part completely. (worth noting...before I ran this part, in between volume one and two I wrote a prequel adventure set a year prior that set a LOT of my themes up...and had the players playing as undercover agents for the council of thieves that are becoming villains in the 4th and 5th modules.)

Aberian's Folly is fun, some good combat and exploration. The twisted halls were confusing to my players. The last boss was a REALLY fun encounter.

Volume Three

Buff up the Sister's of Eiseth if you think they'll die too quick. My group destroyed them wayyyy to fast, and it could be a really fun encounter if you add a a little more complexity to it. The Devildrome was good. I cut out the Wave Door to allow for more background quests for my players.

Delvehaven was a good time. At first I was going to cut the majority of the mansion (my party doesn't really care for dungeons too much) but I ran it as is and it was surprisingly good. The Haunts are a BLAST to play out, BUT and this is a serious warning... Unless you play in a party where character death is common, Bisby's ghost can be a bit too lethal. I added some gems to his skull that would Magic Jar anyone he killed with Phantasmal Killer. The players could then return the souls to the proper bodies with a DC 22 Spellcraft check (body swapping was fun when it happened).

We're stopped JUST short of the bottom level of the dungeon right now.

Most important thing -- Don't be afraid to monkey with what's written. It's a really GOOD series of modules, but make it your own.


Side note, I used the gems on the skull to evoke the nightmare that is the demi-lich. mwuahahahahahhaha


Here's a kooky question: how portable is Council of Thieves?

If it all takes place in once city, do I have a lot of leeway in making it a different city? Could I run CoT in, say, Korvosa? City of Greyhawk? Sharn? Hong Kong?

And another, related question: are the six chapters usable as standalones? I've heard nothing but great things about 'Sixfold Trial'. Could I run that as part of another campaign without all that comes before and after?

Thanks, all.

Shadow Lodge

Fletch wrote:

Here's a kooky question: how portable is Council of Thieves?

If it all takes place in once city, do I have a lot of leeway in making it a different city? Could I run CoT in, say, Korvosa? City of Greyhawk? Sharn? Hong Kong?

And another, related question: are the six chapters usable as standalones? I've heard nothing but great things about 'Sixfold Trial'. Could I run that as part of another campaign without all that comes before and after?

Thanks, all.

There's one monster event in The Infernal Syndrome that might make it difficult to run the module in another of Golrion's cities. It is very much meant for Cheliax thematically, and ties in best with the devils behind the scenes nature of the nation. It might be transportable into other worlds (and absolutely possible in a homebrew), but thematically it might be difficult to put it someplace like Greyhawk (Hong Kong might be awesome though).

With some mighty tweaking, you could probably make The Sixfold Trial work as a stand-alone. The PCs want to do the play as an "in" to the Governor's Mansion so they can steal some do-dad. This could be adjusted for your own story fairly well.


MisterSlanky wrote:
Fletch wrote:

Here's a kooky question: how portable is Council of Thieves?

If it all takes place in once city, do I have a lot of leeway in making it a different city? Could I run CoT in, say, Korvosa? City of Greyhawk? Sharn? Hong Kong?

And another, related question: are the six chapters usable as standalones? I've heard nothing but great things about 'Sixfold Trial'. Could I run that as part of another campaign without all that comes before and after?

Thanks, all.

There's one monster event in The Infernal Syndrome that might make it difficult to run the module in another of Golrion's cities. It is very much meant for Cheliax thematically, and ties in best with the devils behind the scenes nature of the nation. It might be transportable into other worlds (and absolutely possible in a homebrew), but thematically it might be difficult to put it someplace like Greyhawk (Hong Kong might be awesome though).

With some mighty tweaking, you could probably make The Sixfold Trial work as a stand-alone. The PCs want to do the play as an "in" to the Governor's Mansion so they can steal some do-dad. This could be adjusted for your own story fairly well.

Yeah you could work it around to be applicable in other locales. Korvosa has a healthy dose of chelish influence in it, and Hellknights are around so it wouldn't require too much modification. The AP is almost entirely in the city, but I broke that up a bit with some quests outside the city walls. The players had found an enchanted Large Sized Greataxe and after some investigation found that it belonged to a bloodline of Storm Giants north of the city in some mountains... got half way there and ran afoul of a tribe of Ogre's playing Humy Puntin'. Think twisted Ogre soccer. Orchestrated a chase scene afterwards where they had to flee as the shaman's and the rest of the tribe showed up, it was a good time.

It really depends on wether or not you want to spend the time to convert it. I would, especially Sixfold Trial.

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