| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You're not the only one Harles. My group dropped Pathfinder Core Rules just after it was released for simpler systems like C&C. We all liked aspects of Pathfinder, but it was just to complex/crunchy for us.
I bought the Beginner Box a couple of weeks ago after reading a blog post about the BB, and have started a Pathfinder revival. After I showed the other GM in our group the BB he immediately fell in love with it. BB is now becoming our house rules of choice.
We aren't planning on migrating to core rules, but like you I may be dragging out some of my old AP's like Rise of the Rune Lords and running the first couple of installments.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It appears that there is growing demand for the BB rule set to expand its product. I have posted the following in another thread that fits here as well as my thoughts on the matter:
I understand that Paizo wants this box set to be a beginner game that leads players to the main game; however, after listening to WotC plans for 5th edition, I wonder if Paizo should rethink their approach and change the beginner box into the part of the basic rules line.
5th edition is supposed to be modular in nature. Make the game as simple or complex as you like.
I think Paizo should address this early. Jump in and make a basic set of rules and support it with adventures, etc. Perhaps the next set should be levels 5 - 10 and introduce optional rules like AOO, etc. Rules that can be ignored or used to bring players close to the core rulebook. Players can jump up to the full rule-set at anytime or stay with the basic system. I can only think this as a win-win for Paizo.
My groups experiece is kind of the reverse, we have been through low levels so many times that the early levels seem sort of stale when compared to the complexity of higher levels. I think the advantage of a system as robust as pathfinder is you can play it any way you want. And now there is both E6 and the begginer box for those who prefer lower level games and to stay at lower levels.
There is however a large group of pathfinder fans that like mid to high level play. There has always been a big push for the adventure paths to end even later (in levels) then they already do, so clearly not everyone would want the begginer box to be the core experience.
I dont think 5E should be a driving force for any of paizo's plans, because WoTC has not yet proven they can do it. The idea of a modular game system is VERY ambitious, and I still have no idea how they are going to pull it off while still satisfying their whole customer base. It seems to me either they will have to produce a dozen versions of very book, or that each book will contain huge chunks of material that many players and dms wont have any use for. That is alot of wasted manhours on WotC's part and money on the customers part.
Paizo on the other hand, is (by design) a much smaller company. They dont necessarily have the resources to support a pathfinder basic as well as the main ruleset, and while bringing people into the hobby was a priority for them, they seem very intent on NOT splitting their audience if they can help it. I think that is probably a good idea.
I agree, it is a good idea, but it does feel quite daunting to attempt to convert something from the full Pathfinder rules into the Beginner box rule set, so I'll leave that for others to do who know much more about the system than I do. Whether that is Paizo themselves who do this, or other more knowledgeable fans, I don't really mind. Of course, there is quite a lot of content already there.
One thing though, it seems to me that you are not the target audience for the Beginner box as you prefer higher level play, which there is already a ton of content for, so you may be speaking a little out of turn. I doubt that the Beginner Box threatens the Core line and will bring new players into the full system; I have had the idea for a while (years in fact) to run a low level campaign where most everyone you meet is level 1, level 2 is uncommon, 3 is rare and so on... now I have a system to do it, so I'm happy. :-)
Well in a sense I am the target audience of the begginer box as I have and do teach people the game. But in terms of my primary gaming group no we are not the target audience. My comment was towards the idea of making the begginer box part of the core experience of pathfinder as opposed to a intro product as it is now. Obviously I welcome everyone to play they game as they wish, but I do think there is a lot to consider before you make such a drastic change as to include a 'basic' set of rules within the core line, or to create a separate product line.
While I understand Kolokotroni's statement regarding Paizo may not want to split their audience into a Basic and Core camps, but I can't help but think they created a product that seems to be having that audience for more. You can't ignore that.
Maybe another boxed set doesn't make sense, but a beginner's book that carries the rest of the game to level 10 or 20 might fit the bill. You can jump into the ocre rules at anytime. You can also have a small chapter for DM's that suggests a list of core rules to introduce to players based on the their level. Or just keep to the basic rules. It would be up to the DM and the players.
Avalon Hill used to have a great system to introduce players to their complex wargames by introducing new elements of gameplay with each advancing sceanrio. No reason a RPG game can't do the same. Normally it is done with progressive adventures, but after the first advenure, most modules tend to leave you on your own.
I seriously think Paizo and players can have it all. Some cake quote cliche comes to mind.
...It seems that every 3.x or Pathfinder campaign I've been involved in (whether DM or player) seems to fall apart around 6th level. Campaigns as diverse as Necromancer Games' Tomb of Abysthor to the Speaker in Dreams by Wizards of the Coast; even Paizo's Shackled City and more modern Adventure Paths like Council of Thieves and Kingmaker.
There is a oxymoron in my take on the game: just as the rules begin to get too complex, campaigns start to feel stale to me after around 6th level. Maybe for me the levels in the Beginner Box represent the "sweet spot" of the d20 system.
If this is the case, I may try running just the first two modules of various adventure paths, limiting character creation options to the content of the Beginner Box. I know this is contrary to the desires of the Pathfinder designers, but my experience is that the game is awesome to around level 6 - and then after that - not so much.
Indeed. I've always focused on 1-10 (Adventurer Levels as I call them). For me after 10th it gets way too "over the top" and generally a mess. The way I see it 11-20 (Heroic Levels) represent an extremely rare few like the heros out of Greek mythology. As such I treat 11+ like most GMs treat "Epic" levels. Only to be used sparingly for campaigns specifically based around overpowered PCs. Given that I too would like to see additional basic content that focuses on the more down to earth levels being it's own contained thing.
The additional races and classes from the core book that didn't make it in--Half-elf, Half-orc, Halfling, Gnome, Druid, Bard, Monk, Sorcerer, Paladin and Ranger
Material to bring all the BB characters up to maybe level 8 or 10--"Name level," as it were.
Additional rules covering governing kingdoms/territories/guilds as a good "end game" activity. I haven't had a chance to look at Kingmaker yet, but maybe just incorporate the rules from there.
Extra monsters, items, spells etc.
That would be way too much for a single Beginner Box add on. Would be enough for two expansions actually.
The BB only has 3 races and 4 classes. To add 4 more races and 7 more classes (Barbarians need printing too), plus an additional five levels for the existing classes would easily be double the amount of material from the BB.
The BB focuses on the classic Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard. So the way I would imagine it for the "Intermediate Box" is to introduce the classic alternates for the base four. As in Barbarian, Monk, Druid, Sorcerer.
For races I'd go with the shorties. Halflings and Gnomes. This way you could also keep the pawn count to a manageable level. Just have pawns for Warrior types, Expert types, Divine Caster types, and Arcane Caster types rather then individual pawns for every separate race/class combo.
As they would provide enough content for a BB3 I'd say just leave the hybrid classes (Bard, Paladin, Ranger) and races (Half-elf, Half-orc) for the full rules set.
Those are just my opinions anyways. :)
I really think that a 64 page splatbook or an expansion box set that extended the beginner box options to level 10 and added a few more classes, a couple of demi-human races, and more monsters would be a huge seller. I wouldn't expect Paizo to support the game beyond that point, but it would make the beginner system the perfect entry level game and keep players who would not migrate into Pathfinder core rules in the Paizo fold.
Regards,
V
Re falling apart at 6th - IME the game still usually works ok up to around 8th level, both my last 3e campaigns ended at 8th and it felt right, without the major gameplay problems you get at 9th+. Although while 9th+ is not good for traditional adventuring there's also a case for including 9th & 10th level for the traditional 'end game' of domain management, Arthurian level superheroes, teleporting wizards, and for statting of uber-NPCs to fight 5th-8th level PC groups.
My E5 Beginner Box Yggsburgh campaign is about to start, and I'm happy with the 5th level cap, but E8 might have been better and I would certainly pick up a 6-10 'Expert Set' expansion.
And BTW I am using Crypt of the Everflame with this campaign and am looking at buying other low-level PF modules too, so it's not the case that BB campaigns don't support sales of core PF materials. They may not currently support sales of the 3rd-6th parts of an AP, but a 6-10 Expert Set would change that at least for parts 3 & 4. :)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Re falling apart at 6th - IME the game still usually works ok up to around 8th level, both my last 3e campaigns ended at 8th and it felt right, without the major gameplay problems you get at 9th+. Although while 9th+ is not good for traditional adventuring there's also a case for including 9th & 10th level for the traditional 'end game' of domain management, Arthurian level superheroes, teleporting wizards, and for statting of uber-NPCs to fight 5th-8th level PC groups.
9th and 10th aren't too bad yet. Teleport, Cone of Cold, Polymorph, etc make good top end spells imo. As long as their access is limited. It's a good point for characters to become kings, warlords, guild masters, whatever. Past that is generally too "over the top" for my taste. I only rarely do higher end campaign specifically designed around ubber characters. Also it breaks up into into nice ten level blocks that way.
1-10 Adventurer (Down to earth levels where most things happen)11-20 Heroic (Those exceptionally few like from myths of old)
21-30 Epic (Semi-divine, over powered, planes hoping madness)
31-40 Godly (Congratulations. You are now a god)
|
BB Set as a stand alone product works fine, and should stand as is, a additional BB GM Box or Sandpont Box could slot in here. Additional materials could be included in the GM BB that could contain optional expansion for a more generic Basic version as well as intergration of the standards PF Rule set.
Each time I open the Beginner Box and thumb through it, I am amazed at this product. I am already organizing a Beginner Box day at my FLGS to introduce players who have thus far been too intimidated to try the core rulebook.
This is more a reply to the OP (from January 2012, I realize), and his comment about how he likes the Beginner Box because the Core Rulebook intimidates people so much they won't try it.
I run a bi-weekly Pathfinder RPG game using the Core Rulebook (and other books too). About half of my players had never played a version of 3.x before, whether D&D or Pathfinder, and in fact I had a new player join last session who has never played a tabletop RPG before.
Another player did assist that player with building a character (the characters are presently level 6), as is usually the case with new players, but when the player asked about how to read the character sheet, I told her the same thing I tell all our new players: The best way to learn is to play first and we'll help you find stuff on the sheet. Once you've learned a basic understanding in-play then you can delve more deeply into the mechanics. It's much easier to focus on "what I want my character to be able to do" in the beginning, and get help trying to translate that into the mechanics you have available, than learning the mechanics up-front and feeling stifled by them.
The Pathfinder Core Rulebook can be overwhelming, but it's not once you tell the players they aren't going to be expected to know the whole book, or even half of it. 1/3 of the book is Gamemastering stuff, 1/5 is spells, and those can mostly be looked up when used, and a lot of the book is related to classes a character doesn't have and doesn't need to worry about. It's fine to be intimidated by the book, but it's also important to realize most of it is only used as a reference book, and they're not going to be expected to know more than a sliver of what's in the book.
That having been said, I've heard the Beginner Box is very good. I have a friend online that said he used it to teach several members of his Pathfinder group the basics of play, and he feels it is worded better than the Core Rules, even if it is missing elements. I own it but I've never opened the plastic. I'd love to see a picture of the included Flip-Mat though, so I can decide if I want to open my BB for it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
BB is EXCELLENT. Half of my games I run it with BB rules expanded to allow classes from the CRB and expand the experience upwards.
Great for simpler games of PF, I love the BB rules to tell the truth.
BB is EXCELLENT. Half of my games I run it with BB rules expanded to allow classes from the CRB and expand the experience upwards.
Great for simpler games of PF, I love the BB rules to tell the truth.
I'm doing something very similar now. I learned to play from the old "Red Box" D&D, adding complexity with each boxed set. I find it's a much better way to get into the game, and gives you a much better base to expand upon if you intend (like I am now) running with a stripped-down core.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I follow a simple rule: Keep it simple, keep it beautiful. And BB its funcional. Trying to lure new players work great, but they want keep simple. please expand to LV 10 or 15. BB its amazing, but no all my players want read a whole set of books (50% percent barely read in spanish, a few english)
I'd love to see a picture of the included Flip-Mat though, so I can decide if I want to open my BB for it.Here's one. If you want a different angle/type of photo, let me know (PM would be best) and I'll see what I can do.
Thanks. It took me awhile to get back to this thread, but I do appreciate the shot. I could certainly use the dungeon side but I have enough similar Flip-Mats that I don't see that I need to get at that one any time soon.
5th edition is supposed to be modular in nature. Make the game as simple or complex as you like.
Did I read "Rolemaster" and its optionnal rules that are so numerous than one year after purchase, you still don't know which one you want to use and which ones you don't want to ?
The problem with pathfinder rules is that they're designed around a set of premade classes. This makes it hard to adapt them to, say, a sci-fi setting.
Think of Dragonstar.
No more published, it was released as an "OGL game", needing the core rules of the role-playing-game-you-know-of-but-should-not-tell-the-name, 3rd edition.It can be stated a bit like "this" RPG in space, picturing some space-opera universe with Dwarves, Elves, Halflings, Orcs, and so on, and used core classes like fighter, barbarian, wizard, clerics, and so on, only having to alter them a little bit.
For example, fighters using laser guns rather than swords and piloting cars rather than riding horses, rangers specializing in carbines rather than bows, rogues dismissing electronic security rather than picking locks, wizards using spells more in a general way and relying to genades for area-effect damage...
I really like this setting where Gods created the whole galaxy rather than a mere world, and the galactic empire is ruled by dragons.