How can he have a +2 belt and a +4 belt? Perhaps I'm wrong but isn't a Belt of Physical Might is +2 or +4 or +6?OK, I decided to have a run at the Bard. I started from scratch since Bruiser is a multiclass.
** spoiler omitted **...
You can add a second property to a magic item for 150% cost.
That's all a Belt of +4 Str/Dex is anyways.
In this case however, Bill has a Belt of +4 Dex (at full price) with a Belt of +2 Str added as a second property, for 150% cost. Total cost, 16,000 gp.
However, he could spend an additional 2,000gp (which he has to spare) and get a Belt of +4 Dex and an Ioun Stone of +2 Str instead easy enough for the same benefits.
I've been skipping homebrew items, TM, otherwise all the archers would have something like this.OK, I decided to have a run at the Bard. I started from scratch since Bruiser is a multiclass.
Belt of +4 dex , 2nd property +2 Str (16,000 gp)
No problem, then give him the Ioun Stone with the +2 Str instead. Note that he has a fair bit of gold unspent that cover it with over 1,000gp left over.
Since you're losing +1 to hit and +4 damage there, I'm guessing your damage is fair bit lower.
Yep, my bad on Heroism. Forgot it gave a saving throw bonus rather than a damage bonus. Still useful, but not for this excercise.
I didn't know you weren't calculating PBS.
yes, obviously those will both take a chunk from damage. I wonder whether inserting Deadly Aim into the build would help...I'll play with some numbers and see what can be done.
I think it's unquestionable that Bill the Bard is going to post unimpressive numbers when he spends first round firing arrows rather than casting...but I'll run the numbers anyways.
I might change the rules for self-cast buffs that aren't self-only buffs. (Heroism and GMW are the big ones here.) I dunno. Maybe do the DPR with and without them?
Well, I think it depends on the tactical likelyhood of using the spells. In the Bard's case for example, the DPR before the party buffing on round 1 is practically irrelevant if you are playing the Bard optimally.
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Bill the Bow using Bard
Race: Human
Ability Scores:
STR: 16 (+3) (+2 belt)
DEX: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 belt)
CON: 12 (+1)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 8 (-1)
CHA: 16 (+3) (13 base, +1 level, +2 hat)
HP: 69 HP (10d8+20)
Saving Throws
Fort: +8 Ref:+17 Will:+10 (+4 to saves vs sonic, language dependant, and bardic perform)
AC: 24- Touch 17, Flatfooted 18(10+6 dex +6 armor, +1 natural, +1 Ring of Protection)
Class Abilities:
Spells of up to 4th level
Bardic Knowledge
Performance: (Countersong, Distraction, Fascinate, Inspire courage, Inspire competence, Suggestion, Dirge of Doom, Inspire greatness)
3 Versatile Performances
Well Versed
Lore Master
Jack of all trades
BAB: +7 CMB: +10 CMD: +20
Feats:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Deadly Aim
Arcane Strike
Manyshot
Martial Weapon Prof: Longbow
Skills:
Perform: Oratory (Versatile Performance: Diplomacy and Sense Motive)
Perform: Comedy (VP: Bluff and Intimidate)
Perform: Dance (VP: Acrobatics and Fly)
All Knowledges (all 10) at one Rank (For a +10 on each, and he can take twenty for an assured 30)
Use Magic Device
Perception
Stealth
Gear:
+3 composite Longbow (+3 str mod) (18, 675 gp)
Belt of +4 dex (10,000 gp)
Ioun Stone of +2 Str (8,000)
+2 mithral shirt (5,100 gp)
Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000 gp)
Handy Haversack (2,000 gp)
Ring of Protection +1 (2,000 gp)
Lesser Bracers of Archery (5,000 gp)
Hat of +2 cha (4,000 gp)
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2,000 gp)
1225 GP in various ammunition, adventuring gear, etc.
Precast Buffs: Heroism (10 min/level +2 to hit/damage)
Uses Arcane Strike, Rapid Shot, Manyshot
Attack bonus: +7 BAB, +2 Heroism, +1 Bracers, +6 Dex, -2 Rapid Shot, +3 Enhancement
Attacks: Longbow: +17 (x2)/+17/+12 Damage average: 13.5 (4.5 +3 Arcane St +3 Str +3 enchance)
3x(0.70)x13.5+(.70x.05x2x13.5x2)+1x(.45)x13.5+(.45x.05x2x13.5) = 36.92
Special Circumstances: Using a Bard, Bill should use round 1 to raise Inspire Courage and a Spell. If he uses round 1 for Inspire Courage and Haste (both full party buffs – good idea if there are a couple melee characters in the party), then Full Attack on round 2 looks like:
Attack bonus: +7 BAB, +2 Heroism, +1 Bracers, +6 Dex, -2 Rapid Shot, +3 Enhancement, +2 Inspire courage, +1 Haste
Attacks: Longbow: +20 (x2)/+20/+20/+15 Damage average: 16.5 (4.5+3 Arcane St +3 Str +1 PBS +3 enchance +2 Inspire Courage)
4x(0.85)x16.5+(.85x.05x2x16.5x3)+1x(.60)x16.5+(.60x.05x2x16.5) = 71.20 DPR
In this version I've switched Bill to a human, upped the Con score, the HP, and the saving throws. Fort is still pretty weak at +8, but Will is better, and Ref is v. good.
I've switched the 2 property belt for a belt and an ioun stone.
I played with Deadly Aim options, but it really doesn't pay off with this build.
I played with going with a Shortbow and taking Weapon Focus instead of the Longbow prof. In the end, the numbers were virtually identical for DPR, so Longbow is probably a better choice because of range.
DPR for unbuffed Bill the Bard is 36.92. Not abysmal, but low enough that Bill isn't pulling his weight if that's all he's doing.
If Bill uses the first round for Party-wide buffing, then on round 2 he enters offensive combat with a 71.20 DPR. Much more respectable.
This means that Party-wide Buffing on round 1 now only costs Bill 2.64 average damage over 2 rounds. Really, tactically a no-brainer.
The idea is to set a baseline for comparing different classes' damage potential.
Absolutely, and as a single combatant, without buffing on round 1, the 10th level Bard isn't much offensively.
However, beginning round 2, this shows the Bard, in addition to making everyone else better, can contribute offensively as well. Not a limelight stealer by any means, but definitely a decent choice for a 4 person party.
Which of course is always the goal. Being "an excellent 5th party member" is the worst insult you can bestow a class IMO.
So far, is Dan the Druid (redone) #1 for damage potential? Looks like it to me with a quick overview. That charge damage is ultra-nasty, and not all that circumstantial either.
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The GMF thing seems like less of an exploit/loophole than Amulet of Mighty Fists being too expensive. I all practicality, I think in most games, an Amulet of Mighty fists would probably cover it and cover it fine.
That said, some of the numbers really depend on the setup and in part the druid is an artifact of that. Another example would be that TWF is faring worse under these rules than it otherwise might because of ability score setups.
Speaking of the non-bold numbers:
Huh... that's weird. Shouldn't those be the same? Should I go bug-hunting again? :). .Full Attack Single Attack
DPR: 17.88 17.88
Per +1 to hit: 1.25 1.63
Per +1 damage: 0.72 0.72
Extra attack: 17.88
Update - found this bug. Also found the bugs in both primary and secondary natural attacks, ugh. Fixed all of the above.
i dunno, his numbers seem... uninspiring. except maybe against his top favored enemy.
hopefully treantmonk will tell me if i'm doing it wrong.
For the purpose of this thread switch hitting and standard attacks are not going to make you look good against the competition.
This thread always assumes everyone is engaged in full attacks with their primary melee or ranged weapon all the time (for the purpose of comparison). In comparing with these parameters, the switch hitter is at a disadvantage, and is simply not going to shine under these parameters.
However, you have absolutely gimped your numbers because you have also left out your animal companion.
If I was to make a Ranger for this thread, specifically made to maximize DPR under the conditions in the OP, it would be an archery focused Ranger absolutely, then I would make a cheetah AC (that would be getting full attacks) that took the option for +2 Dex/con at 4th level instead of the normal increase. I would ensure a 16 Wis so that the AC could start with Greater Magic Fang (cast on all natural weapons for +1 on each).
The DPR for that build would be crazy. Haven't worked it out, nor will I. It takes a lot for granted to assume the cheetah is full attacking when it has no melee support from the Ranger.
However, for a switch hitter, full attacking is not the specialty.
I would instead go for a Wolf companion for the one big standard attack, then I would change up some feats and equipment to specialize in the skirmish. The DPR is not going to shine against any of these builds engaged in full attack (unless fighting a favored enemy). But if you compare DPR for standard attacks, then the Switch Hitter looks pretty good.
I got rid of the amulet of natural armor. No point when Barkskin gives you 3 times the AC bonus (so AC is improved)
The result would be closer to:
randy the ambiguously switch hitting ranger:
Ability Scores:
STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 belt)
DEX: 16 (+3) (13 base, +1 level, +2 stone)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 8 (-1)
HP: 89 HP (10d10+30)
Saving Throws
Fort: +11 Ref: +8 Will: +6
AC: 24 - Touch 14, Flatfooted 21 (+7 +1 breastplate, +3 Barkskin, +3 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection)
Attacks - all included:
Greatsword: To hit: (+10 BAB, -3 PA, +3 Enhancement, +6 Str = +16)
Longbow: To hit: (+10 BAB, -3 DA, +2 Enhancement, +3 Dex, -2 Rapid Shot = +10)
Greatsword Damage: 2d6+2d6 (vital strike), +9 (PA), +9 Str, +3 enhancement
Longbow Damage: 1d8 + 6 Deadly Aim, +5 Str, +2 Enhancement
Class Abilities:
Favored Enemy Undead +6
evil outsiders +2
aberration +2
favored terrain undergroun +4
urban +2
animal companion
evasion
stuff
BAB: +10 CMB: +15 CMD: 28
Feats:
Cleave
Rapid Shot (bonus)
Deadly Aim
Power Attack
Manyshot (bonus)
quickdraw
Vital Strike
Improve Precise Shot (bonus)
Skills:
perception, others
Gear:
+3 Greatsword 18000gp
23 mighty composite longbow 8000gp
Belt of Giant Str (+4) 16000gp
Ioun Stone Dex +2 8,000gp
+1 breastplate 1000gp
Cloak of Resistance +2 4000gp
Handy Haversack 2000gp
Ring of Protection +1 2000gp
Animal Companion Wally the Wolf
Size: Large
Speed: 50'
AC: 22 (+8 nat, -1 size, +2 Dex, +3 Barkskin)
Attack: +10 Bite 1d10+9 (plus trip)
Str: 23, Dex: 15, Con: 19, Int: 3, Wis: 12, Cha: 6
Special Qualities: Scent
HD: 6
BAB: +4
Fort: +5, Ref: +5, Will: +2
Feats: Weapon Focus (Bite), Vital Strike, Improved Natural Attack
Standard attack: 1x(0.35x20)+(.35x20x.05)=7.35
Standard attack: Greatsword
1x (.65 x 35) + (.10x.65 x35) = 25.03
Cleave
2x (.65 x 28) + 2x (.10 x .65 x 28) = 40.04
So that's about 32.38 damage on a standard attack vs. a non-favored enemy.
If Cleave is an option, DPR goes up to 47.39 on a standard attack. I don't think you'll be seeing many other builds on this thread with that kind of standard attack damage, as that is not what they are built for (Falchion Fred would probably have a decent standard attack)
Obviously, DPR improves if the Ranger and AC flank, or are fighting a favored enemy.
“Nekkid Bubba Hack-Toes” Barbarian 2 / Fighter 8
The only stats that matter are 22 Strength and 16 Con – using 20 point buy from PFSOP: 16 Str (10 points), 16 Con (10 points), +2 Str (race) +2 Str (level advancement) = 22 total Str (+6), setting all other ability scores at a 10.
Base Attack +10, mundane battle axe wielded. Greater Weapon Focus – Battle Axe (+2 attack) [Ftr 1 and 8], Weapon Specialization – Battle Axe (+2 damage) [Ftr 4], Power Attack [1st level: -3 attack, +9 damage], Improved Critical – Battle Axe (threat 19-20/x3) [9th level], Toughness [3rd level], Weapon Training 1 (axes) (+1 attack, damage and CMB), rage 9 rounds / day gives 26 Str and 20 Con. Favored Class: Fighter for extra hit points, no traits assumed. 12 hp from Barbarian 1 and averaged hp per HD on the remaining 9 levels gives hit points of 110 (130 when raging) [62 from hit dice +8 favored class +10 toughness +30 Con]. Nekkid saving throw bonuses are +11 Fortitude, +2 Reflex, +2 Will (+4 raging or bravery +2 vs. fear, +6 raging vs. fear). Open feats: 5th, 7th, Ftr 2nd, Ftr 6th gives plenty of room for customization.
Attack with mundane battle axe, raging, power attack: +18/+13 | 19-20, x3 (10 +1 weapon training +2 greater weapon focus +8 Strength -3 power attack) & damage 1d8+24, critical 3d8+72 (two-handed +12 Strength +1 weapon training +2 weapon specialization +9 power attack). Against a target AC of 24 Bubba hits 60% on his first swing, 35% on his second swing. Averaged damage per non-critical hit is 28.5 or 85.5 on a confirmed critical hit. (17.1 +9.975 = 27.075) (critical hits are 1 in 10, so I have to assume (.1 x2 = .2x.60 x85.5 [17.1 x0.6] = 10.26 / .x2x.35x85.5 [17.1 x0.35] = 5.985 + 10.26 = 16.245 + 27.075 =) 43.32 DPR total.
Attack with mundane battle axe, raging: +21/+16 dealing 1d8+15 / 19-20, x3 = critical 3d8+45. Against a target AC of 24 Bubba hits 85% on his first swing, 60% on his second swing. Averaged damage per non-critical hit is 19.5 or 58.5 on a critical hit. 16.575 +11.7 = 28.275 +9.945 +7.02 = 51.815 DPR total. If “de-magic’d” against a foe that somehow has a 24 AC, clearly Bubba does not want to Power Attack.
Adding in a +4 belt of Strength and the OP-standard +3 battle axe adds +5 to-hit and +6 damage, making the power attack a much more viable attack routine, *netting* an increase of +10% to-hit (95% on the first swing, 70% on the second swing) over the non-power attack accuracy. Raging Power Attack average damage increases to 33.5 or 101.5 on a confirmed critical hit. 31.825 +23.45 +19.285 +14.21 = 87.77 DPR total.
EDIT: My DPR is off by a few fractionals due to gaining an additional point of damage per hit.
For the purpose of this thread switch hitting and standard attacks are not going to make you look good against the competition.No, they pretty much just suck. Waving your hands at the math doesn't really make it go away.
Except that the math you show in this thread only tells half the story. Don't pretend that Standard attack damage is irrelevant.
It's very convenient in this thread that assumes that characters are always full attacking, even though that clearly isn't the case in actual gameplay. Then all the bulds can completely ignore the ability to do damage when full attacking isn't an option.
So lets talk straight Math, from the other side of the equation:
Jack B. Nimble - WITH flank and sneak attack. Standard: 19.25 DPR
- Without - not worth even attacking.
Falchion Fred - against a crit able enemy Standard attack: 33 DPR
Tempest Ted - Standard attack: 16.5 DPR
Farshot Fallon - Standard attack: 21.45 DPR
Clarissa the Cleric - With divine favor - Standard attack: 14.85 DPR
That's all your builds right?
The only one that can do equivalent damage to Randy in a standard action attack is Falchion Fred - and that's only if Randy doesn't have a Cleave option and is not fighting a favored enemy. In either of those situations, Randy has a clear mathematical advantage.
Your thread assumes full attacks, which is perfectly appropriate for comparing full attack damage. However, none of your builds are skirmishers, so naturally when a skirmisher is compared, the numbers aren't as high. (Randy does a bit over 40 DPR in a Full attack routine when not flanking or fighting a favored enemy)
However, that is this thread only. In actual gameplay, standard action attacks are a reality, unless you have another option. What other option does Jack have if a move is required to enter melee? What about Ted? Druid Dan, Falchion Fred and Randy the Ranger are the only builds that can move a full move and do more than 30 damage on average.
It has nothing to do with ignoring the math, it's about accepting that this thread isn't an all encompassing snapshot of damage potential.
As for Archery vs. Melee - clearly Archery has the higher damage potential. This is true of Fighters, Clerics, Bards, Paladins, and Rangers. However, there are tactical disadvantages for your party to lack melee options that this thread also is not meant to deal with.
Archery benefits from a devoted approach; you're buying lots of attacks (and the ability to attack at all, in the case of Precise Shot) with feats, then adding lots of +1s to hit and +1s to damage to those many shots. It gets markedly better the more you invest in it.
Actually, my understanding from reading the numbers you posted was that there are three feats that give a lot of return (Precise Shot, Deadly Aim and Manyshot -- maybe Improved Precise Shot, too), and lots of feats that give diminishing returns (Point Blank Shot, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, etc.). Am I misreading your results?
You're right. Most melee characters don't get full attacks all the time in real games. But archers do.
Not all the time, but certainly more often than melee characters.
Archers don't need to worry about being a certain range to get full attack like melee characters do. However, occassionally movement is required in combat for other reasons.
Archers are especially vulnerable to battlefield controls, or the most simple skirmish tactics, especially with a skirmish build. A simple fog cloud, or targets who move into full cover can ruin their day without any save, making movement a necessity.
This thread isn't meant to take that stuff into account, but it happens, and it doesn't hurt to take it into consideration in the character build.
And in Pathfinder, standard action archery blows hard. See Farshot Fallon's standard action sucking in my previous post.
a switch-hitting archer is almost always making the decision between making an archery full attack and running in and making one sword swing.
You are assuming a single target in a clear battlefield? In that case, yes. However, lots of encounters don't have that sterile an environment. You've never had an archery target simply move behind a corner before? Some of the rest of us have.
If the opponent moves behind a rock or tree you can move and shoot an arrow, or you can move and swing a sword. In fact, the sword swing, with cleave, is the only standard action attack option that gives the possibility of two attacks depending on the positioning of the enemy.
However, sometimes even without cover or concealment the sword swing is better than the ranged attack. Also not taken into account in this thread is that swords threaten and bows don't. Also Sword users flank, and bow users don't. Bow users provoke, and sword users don't.
Archery and Melee have different advantages, and one is not always better than the other.
Nobody in D&D is actually a skirmisher in the sense that moving and attacking is a better strategy than standing and attacking if the latter is an available choice. The only real choices are between standing and full attacking or attacking and running away.
Never been attacked by a spring attacker before? Full melee attacks only happen in a mutual agreement between both sides. Skirmishing can provoke, just as firing a bow can, but often an attack/withdraw, attack/withdraw routine can be tactically effective - especially if you have multiple party members employing the same tactic.
If melee and ranged had more synergy, then switch-hitters would be better. But they want two different stats, rangers rely heavily on the damage from their feats since their class-based bonus damage isn't reliable, and there's zero feat overlap.
If you intend to concentrate on archery, then indeed, melee should be ignored pretty much entirely.
However, if you intend to use a melee weapon, taking the bonus archery feats really doesn't hurt since you are probably just as well off with a 2 handed weapon than a TWF style (except in the case of fighting a favored enemy, but in those cases, you are in pretty good shape regardless)
Actually, my understanding from reading the numbers you posted was that there are three feats that give a lot of return (Precise Shot, Deadly Aim and Manyshot -- maybe Improved Precise Shot, too), and lots of feats that give diminishing returns (Point Blank Shot, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, etc.)Improved Critical gives great results no matter what it is that you do.
(Note: I forgot Rapid Shot from the "must have" list above, mea culpa.)
Define "great results". For "Farshot Fallon":
- losing Rapid Shot costs ~19 damage
- losing Precise Shot costs ~18 damage (assuming you're shooting into melee)
- losing Manyshot costs ~15.5 damage
- losing Deadly Aim costs ~9 damage
- losing Improved Critical costs ~4 damage
- losing Greater Weapon Focus costs ~4 damage
To me, that looks like diminishing returns. Four damage per round is not really a significant amount when you're fighting creatures with 130 hp.
And when enemies run around corners? They're running away.
Depends on the battlefield. Assuming the archer is behind meleers, often an enemy can move behind a corner and continue to cast at or target those in front. The meleers are then forced to pursue or retreat. When things like Rage, short duration buffing or Smite evil are in play, pursue becomes the obvious option to get the value from the consumable.
Then the archer moves or becomes irrelevant.
Then the archer moves or becomes irrelevant.Into melee? Or into a new firing position?
For the example I was thinking new firing position (I was thinking of examples that mean standard attack for the archer - which in Pathfinder sucks for archers [in 3.5 you at least had swift hunter manyshot archers who were decent at move-fire options])
I suppose I could think of some instances that would be melee or nothing - Obscuring mist for example, which is a first level spell with no save or SR.
Throwing a Barbarian into the mix.
10th level Half Orc Barbarian
Ability Scores:
STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 Belt), 26 (+8) when raging
DEX: 14 (+2)
CON: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level), 18 (+4) when raging
INT: 10 (0)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 8 (-1)
Hit dice: 10d12 +30 (99hp) (+20hp when raging)
Saving Throws:
Fort +10, Reflex +6, Will +5
(When raging, +2 to Fort saves, +2 to Will saves, +3 to all saves vs. spells and spell-like abilities, reroll failed Will saves once)
Armor Class:
Normal: 24 (10 base, +10 armor, +2 DEX, +1 Ring, +1 Amulet)
Raging: 22, or 24 when activating Guarded Stance
Feats:
Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Intimidating Prowess, Dazzling Display, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Intimidate)
Rage (25 rounds/day) – Rage Powers: Intimidating Glare, Superstition (+3), Guarded Stance (+2 to AC), Clear Mind, Terrifying Howl (Will save DC 22)
(Improved Uncanny Dodge, DR 2/-, etc. blah blah)
Skills:
Intimidate: +29 (10 ranks, +2 racial, +3 class skill, -1 CHA, +6 STR, +6 Skill Focus, +3 magic)
-- +31 when raging due to increased STR
30 points to spend
Attacks:
+3 Greatsword: (crit 19-20 x2)
-- Normal +20/+15, 2d6+11 dmg
-- Normal Power Attack +17/+12, 2d6+21 dmg
-- Raging +22/+17, 2d6+15 dmg
-- Raging Power Attack +19/+14, 2d6+24 dmg
Gear (62,000gp)
+3 Greatsword (18,050)
+4 Chain Mail (16,150)
+4 Belt of Giant Strength (16,000)
Circlet of Persuasion (4500)
Ring of Protection +1 (2000)
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2000)
Handy Haversack (2000)
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000)
300gp remaining
If I'm doing the math correctly, she has an average DPR of 50.22 for a full attack when raging and using Power Attack. This would go up by 3.63 DPR if she took the Animal Fury rage power for the bite attack. Powerful Blow would let Barbara add +3 to one damage roll, and Surprise Accuracy would let her add +3 to one to-hit roll, but since she could only do either ability once per rage, I didn't bother taking them.
Is my math correct?
If I'm doing the math correctly, she has an average DPR of 50.22 for a full attack when raging and using Power Attack.
Ouch. I knew the Barbarian wasn't going to look great, but that's still lower than I expected.
Wonder how much Improved Crit might help? I'll look at the numbers. Is the skill focus really necessary? He's pretty good at intimidation anyways...
P.S.: I just added Improved Crit (to raging/power attacking) and came up with 50.22 exactly. Looks like you used a .20 crit modifier for your crit calculations. Without improved crit you should use .10.
The correct DPR I believe for your build is 46.04. Wow. That's definitely less than I was expecting. More than 20 less than Falchion Fred.
Hmmm...speaking of Falchion...nope, 51.77 with improved crit, no big diff.
I knew the barbarian would be behind the fighter, but that's a bigger difference than I was expecting. I was thinking maybe 60 DPR.
Is there anything we can do to pick up the damage a bit more?
If I'm doing the math correctly, she has an average DPR of 50.22 for a full attack when raging and using Power Attack.Ouch. I knew the Barbarian wasn't going to look great, but that's still lower than I expected.
Wonder how much Improved Crit might help? I'll look at the numbers. Is the skill focus really necessary? He's pretty good at intimidation anyways...
P.S.: I just added Improved Crit (to raging/power attacking) and came up with 50.22 exactly. Looks like you used a .20 crit modifier for your crit calculations. Without improved crit you should use .10.
The correct DPR I believe for your build is 46.04. Wow. That's definitely less than I was expecting. More than 20 less than Falchion Fred.
Hmmm...speaking of Falchion...nope, 51.77 with improved crit, no big diff.
I knew the barbarian would be behind the fighter, but that's a bigger difference than I was expecting. I was thinking maybe 60 DPR.
Is there anything we can do to pick up the damage a bit more?
No, I'm using .1 as my crit multiplier... Not sure where we're diverging. Maybe average damage, but even adjusting that I'm not coming up with the same numbers as you are.
The damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.
With a target AC of 24, someone with a +19 to-hit will miss only on a 1-4 out of 20, giving an 80% chance to hit (.8). A +14 to-hit means a miss on a 1-9 out of 20, which drops your chance to hit down to 55% (.55).
Damage is 2d6+24. I was calculating average damage to be 31 (7+24), but even running through it with a 30.5 or 30 average damage the numbers weren't matching yours. I was doubling all damage on criticals, which only happened on a 19 or 20 (a 10% chance, or .1 multiplier).
With an average damage of 31, my calculations looked like this:
h(d+s)+ tchd + h(d+s)+tchd = DPR
.8(31) + (.1)(1)(.8)(62) + .55(31) + (.1)(1)(.55)(62) = DPR
24.8 + 4.96 + 17.05 + 3.41 = 50.22
(Edit: I think I got it. Don't double the damage automatically... 46.485 is what I get now.)
If I'm doing the math correctly, she has an average DPR of 50.22 for a full attack when raging and using Power Attack.Ouch. I knew the Barbarian wasn't going to look great, but that's still lower than I expected.
He invested 3 out of 5 feats on things that don't improve his damage per round (at least in this test). Not to mention short-changing himself by one feat for not being a human (or half-elf, for that matter, since he ended up taking Skill Focus).
Redoing the barbarian as a (cheesy) two-weapon fighter (with two-handed weapon + armor spikes) might be a bit better.
He invested 3 out of 5 feats on things that don't improve his damage per round (at least in this test). Not to mention short-changing himself by one feat for not being a human (or half-elf, for that matter, since he ended up taking Skill Focus).
True, but there aren't many other feat options to improve damage at 10th level. A half elf could get nearly the same Intimidate check (only losing the +2 racial bonus) plus take Improved Critical at 9th level, but as we've seen wouldn't be a huge boost.
Now, 11th level would be significant since the rage boost to STR and CON go up to +6, and the Barb could also take Critical Focus, which will mean an even greater likelihood of critting.
If I'm doing the math correctly, she has an average DPR of 50.22 for a full attack when raging and using Power Attack.Ouch. I knew the Barbarian wasn't going to look great, but that's still lower than I expected.
Yes. They do suck. If there is one class that should be focused on bashing out damage it is the Barbarian, but they don't. The fighter is more versatile in battle and they do more damage. And a ranging Barbarian vs a smiting Paladin is just sad and now I have the proof to prove it.
At level 11 they get a little better? At level 12/13 fighters get a lot better. And both the fighter and the paladin has a great ac.
He invested 3 out of 5 feats on things that don't improve his damage per round (at least in this test). Not to mention short-changing himself by one feat for not being a human (or half-elf, for that matter, since he ended up taking Skill Focus).True, but there aren't many other feat options to improve damage at 10th level.
Improved Critical, Two-Weapon Fighting (greatsword + armor spikes), Double Slice. There's three. Of course you end up with a completely one-dimensional character, but that's not a bad thing for this exercise.
h(d+s)+ tchd + h(d+s)+tchd = DPR
.8(31) + (.1)(1)(.8)(62) + .55(31) + (.1)(1)(.55)(62) = DPR
24.8 + 4.96 + 17.05 + 3.41 = 50.22(Edit: I think I got it. Don't double the damage automatically... 46.485 is what I get now.)
Yes, the crit "bonus" damage is only 31 because you already did 31 with the original hit. The correct formula becomes:
.8(31) + (.1)(1)(.8)(31) + .55(31) + (.1)(1)(.55)(31) = DPR
That's why we came up with the same number when I added Improved Critical.
The benefits of the ranger’s chosen style feats apply only when he wears light, medium, or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style feats when wearing heavy armor.
(aka Falchion Fred updated for more money)
Spoiler:Str 24 (base 15, +2 racial, +1 level, +6 items)
Dex 14 (base 13, +1 level)
Con 14HP 85 (10d10+30)
AC 23 (+1 full plate, +2 dex, +1 dodge)
weapon training heavy blades +2
weapon training something-else +1Feats:
1 power attack
1 exotic weapon elven curve
1 weapon focus elven curve
2 dodge
3 stuff
4 weapon spec elven curve
5 stuff
6 stuff
7 stuff
8 improved crit elven curve
9 greater weapon focus elven curve
10 critical focusEquipment:
62000 g starting wealth
belt of str 4 16000
handy haver 2000
full plate +1 2650
+4 elven curve 32380
+2 str ioun 8000=970 g left for misc
Attack: +25/+20 1d10+18 (15-20/x2)
Power Attack: +22/+17 1d10+27 (15-20/x2)Power attack is an increase so he uses it.
DPR: 71.66
+1 attack: 2.11
+1 dmg: 2.21
Extra Attack: +40.14
Critical Focus is only worth 1.95 so probably better off with another feat.
Edit: Though personally I'd rather have a +3 weapon and buy Boots of Speed and Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (for the same price). This would give you DPR 65.84 most of the time and DPR 108.36 for 10 rounds out of the day (as well as +1 AC all the time and another +1 AC for those 10 rounds), but this violates the thread no-consumables rule.
Roger, Human Ranger 10
I had mentioned this before. Buff yourself with Barkskin for Natural Armor bonus of +3. No reason to let the fighters out AC you.
note, the new rules for mithril plate is it counts as medium but needs the heavy proficiency feat to wear
The Ranger has taken heavy armor prof as one of his feats - so that shouldn't be an issue with the previous build.
Good point though.
Zeroth, that's a fighter with a +6 will save, c'mon. Also, your gear is illegal.
Those don't stack.
belt of str 4 16000
+2 str ioun 8000
Apparently, you didn't notice the "stuff" blanks for feats? There is a lot of room for Iron Will or whatever you like to take it back up to the same (+8 will w/ a re-roll) as Falchion Fred. I was being lazy in not fully fleshing out an entire character. This is the DPR olympics, not build an entire character for people to copy. I put in all the relevant items for DPR - anyone can copy the rest from Falchion Fred as they like.
My apologies about the stacking. I knew about certain buffs (like size increases) not stacking but I didn't realize it applied to all items as well. After reading pg 13 of the PFPHB I can see how it is generalized. Though that implies a lot of things don't stack that I previously thought did stack - such as why would 2 things that give +1 to attack stack then?
So pretty much Elcurblian is stuck at 65.84 unless someone can find a cheaper way to get another +1/+1 out of the gold after giving back the Ioun stone.
Zeroth, that's a fighter with a +6 will save, c'mon. Also, your gear is illegal.
Those don't stack.
belt of str 4 16000
+2 str ioun 8000Apparently, you didn't notice the "stuff" blanks for feats? There is a lot of room for Iron Will or whatever you like to take it back up to the same (+8 will w/ a re-roll) as Falchion Fred. I was being lazy in not fully fleshing out an entire character. This is the DPR olympics, not build an entire character for people to copy. I put in all the relevant items for DPR - anyone can copy the rest from Falchion Fred as they like.
My apologies about the stacking. I knew about certain buffs (like size increases) not stacking but I didn't realize it applied to all items as well. After reading pg 13 of the PFPHB I can see how it is generalized. Though that implies a lot of things don't stack that I previously thought did stack - such as why would 2 things that give +1 to attack stack then?
So pretty much Elcurblian is stuck at 65.84 unless someone can find a cheaper way to get another +1/+1 out of the gold after giving back the Ioun stone.
They don't stack because they both give enhancement bonuses, and same type bonuses don't stack.
Yes, when I was using a Belt and Ioun stone earlier, they were giving bonuses to different stats. Enhancement bonuses don't stack with other enhancement bonuses.
Zeroth, that's a fighter with a +6 will save, c'mon
Realized after I posted what you meant - the lack of a Cloak of Resistance +2.
So you've obviously got some minimums in mind that you've arbitrarily setup and not shared with anyone. Can you please explain your math as to why a +8 is just fine, but a +6 deserves a "c'mon"?
Is this the "DPR Olympics" or "Post an optimized character that can only be approved if it meets all the hidden guidelines that AMIB internally demands"?
You've got guidelines like:
Magic items will be prioritized for doing damage without adversely affecting survivability.
Which really mean nothing because there is a shifting scale between offense and defense.
One person may think a +6 (with 1 reroll) is okay for a level 10 fighter, whereas another may demand the following for AC to be "survivable":
- Full-plate+1
- Tower Shield+1
- Ring of Protection
- Amulet of Natural Armor
- Cloak of Resistance
- Shield Focus Feat
- Greater Shield Focus Feat
- Combat Expertise Feat
- And always fighting defensively
AMIB, I'm curious.....how did you come onto that formula?