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Why did Spiked Chain lose reach?
As it was under 3.5 it was the only core exotic weapon ever worth spending a feat to take. Now it looks like it's joined the rest of the exotic weapons. Nice if you can get them for free, but not worth burning a feat on.
Stephen
Probably because its easier now to just take a feat to apply reach to nonreach weapons. (I think I saw something like that in one of the Chronicles anyway.)
Why did Spiked Chain lose reach?
Best (non-official) answer?
The spiked chain was considered broken, when combined with a half a dozen feats, a specific race and/or a spell working in conjunction.
And in an attempt to reign that in, the feats and race/spell effects were reduced, the mechanics behind them reworked which reduced the combo as well (although, probably not intentionally), and for good measure reach was removed from the spiked chain as well.
Those who don't like the change consider the over all effect overkill.
Those that hated the weapon because of the effects of the feats and race/spell find the change justified.
Unless you want to, oh I don't know, role-play and look bad@ss?
You should not need a feat to roleplay. That is like taking the 3.5 version of toughness to justify your character being a tough guy.
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Unless you want to, oh I don't know, role-play and look bad@ss?You should not need a feat to roleplay. That is like taking the 3.5 version of toughness to justify your character being a tough guy.
Except Toughness in 3.5 actually gave you a miniscule mechanical benefit. The only reason to take the Spiked Chain now is if you wanted a Finesse weapon capable of disarming or tripping an opponent. A heavy flail is both a disarm and a trip weapon, with better damage (1d10 vs. 2d4) and a better critical (19-20/x2 vs, 20/x2). Other than being eligible for use through Weapon Finesse, there is no reason whatsoever to take the spiked chain now.
It is weird that they made it statistically inferior (though just barely) to a martial weapon of the same sort.
On the other hand, finessability seems to count for something now. Rapiers have been given an extra disadvantage over scimitars, for instance (no weildeing them two-handed).
I can't look at the weapon tables for too long without working myself into a frothing OCD-fit. This weapon is .5 points of damage too weak, this weapon is .5 points of damage too powerful. Here a 2-die weapon is considered slightly better than a comparable 1-die weapon, here it's considered slightly worse. Here a martial weapon is better than an exotic weapon, here it's no better than a simple weapon.
Grwaa!
To be frank, whenever I got in a discussion with those who hated spiked chain and claimed it was broken I shredded their arguments pretty easily
The old spiked chain was the only weapon in the game that grants you reach and also lets you threaten adjacent spaces (in other words, a dude with a spiked chain is the only medium-sized threat that a spellcaster or archer can't 5-foot step away from). In addition, it was also the only finessable reach weapon, which made it a no-brainer for Combat Reflexes builds. This is ignoring its potential as a trip/disarm weapon (and tripping was very powerful in 3.5).
I wonder who you were arguing with, that their arguments were so easily shredded. They couldn't have been very familiar with the system.
To be frank,
But I want to be Frank. Can't you be Ed this time? Or Anne? I like looking at Anne and I can't look at her so good when I am her. So it must be your turn to be Anne, Disenchanter will be Ed and I'm Frank.
I wish they had at least added some nice flair to it. Just read it's weapon description - nothing. It doesn't give bonuses to trip or anything. All Exotic Weapon IMHO should all have some CMB or other bonus that would make taking it similar to taking another "Improved XXX" or "XXX Focus" feat, or even been able to be used to give you bonuses to CMD. The spiked chain, due to its nature (if you've ever watched Kill Bill Vol. 1) should be used to be able to grapple an opponent your size or smaller without causing you to lose your dex bonus, and then each round an opponent is grapple with it they take 1d4 damage or something along those lines. That'd make it an interesting and somewhat believable exotic weapon!
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But I want to be Frank. Can't you be Ed this time? Or Anne? I like looking at Anne and I can't look at her so good when I am her. So it must be your turn to be Anne, Disenchanter will be Ed and I'm Frank.
To be frank,
Good to see some humor on this thread.
All these people arguing over who could chain up the enemy while knocking them down, and so little humor.
BTW, Sehkola wants your advice.
But I want to be Frank. Can't you be Ed this time? Or Anne? I like looking at Anne and I can't look at her so good when I am her. So it must be your turn to be Anne, Disenchanter will be Ed and I'm Frank.
To be frank,
I think this is a reference to a scene or passage that I've never seen/read, so I may not actually be getting the joke, but for some reason it was still retardedly amusing.
Role-playing and looking are always worth it.Unless you want to, oh I don't know, role-play and look bad@ss?That's why you might do it despite it not been worth it. It doesn't actually make it worthwhile.
By "worth it", he meant "balanced". Roleplay never makes something balanced. If it did, elves would have to have crappy racial mods to make up for how awesome they are.
The spiked chain, due to its nature (if you've ever watched Kill Bill Vol. 1) should be used to be able to grapple an opponent your size or smaller without causing you to lose your dex bonus, and then each round an opponent is grapple with it they take 1d4 damage or something along those lines.
That only worked because the weapon wrapped around Uma Thurman's throat but she caught it with her hands, then had to keep resisting to keep it from cutting into her jugular. Basically she spent a hero point/action point to negate a fatal critical hit, and the dm (after describing it) said "okay, but you're now grappled".
In other words, it was a fluke, not something that happens every fight (even in an action movie).
But I want to be Frank. Can't you be Ed this time? Or Anne? I like looking at Anne and I can't look at her so good when I am her. So it must be your turn to be Anne, Disenchanter will be Ed and I'm Frank.
To be frank,I think this is a reference to a scene or passage that I've never seen/read, so I may not actually be getting the joke, but for some reason it was still retardedly amusing.
Says the fish face ;D
The spiked chain, due to its nature (if you've ever watched Kill Bill Vol. 1) should be used to be able to grapple an opponent your size or smaller without causing you to lose your dex bonus, and then each round an opponent is grapple with it they take 1d4 damage or something along those lines.That only worked because the weapon wrapped around Uma Thurman's throat but she caught it with her hands, then had to keep resisting to keep it from cutting into her jugular. Basically she spent a hero point/action point to negate a fatal critical hit, and the dm (after describing it) said "okay, but you're now grappled".
In other words, it was a fluke, not something that happens every fight (even in an action movie).
Either way, the point was that each Exotic Weapon should have a special and unique set of rules attached to it, something that is sort of similar to a Feat that would only work when a player uses that particular weapon. This would make Exotic Weapons glorious.
The spiked chain, due to its nature (if you've ever watched Kill Bill Vol. 1) should be used to be able to grapple an opponent your size or smaller without causing you to lose your dex bonus, and then each round an opponent is grapple with it they take 1d4 damage or something along those lines. That'd make it an interesting and somewhat believable exotic weapon!
I certainly could see that as a part of a feat used with either the spiked chain or whip.
Otherwise, I wouldn't be opposed to granting the spiked chain a +2 bonus also to disarm CMB checks, in addition to the trip bonus.
On a side note though... When tripping with specialty weapons (spiked chain, dire flail, etc.) do you still cause damage with the weapon?
I wish they had at least added some nice flair to it. Just read it's weapon description - nothing. It doesn't give bonuses to trip or anything. All Exotic Weapon IMHO should all have some CMB or other bonus that would make taking it similar to taking another "Improved XXX" or "XXX Focus" feat, or even been able to be used to give you bonuses to CMD.
That is because weapon info isn't in the description anymore. It is in the chart.
The spiked chain gives a +2 to disarm attempts, and can be used to trip (it no longer gives a bonus to trip, and from my last look no weapon does).
The old spiked chain was the only weapon in the game that grants you reach and also lets you threaten adjacent spaces (in other words, a dude with a spiked chain is the only medium-sized threat that a spellcaster or archer can't 5-foot step away from).
That isn't quite true. For 2 gold, or 5 gold if you wanted to do leathal damage, anyone with a reach weapon could threaten adjacent squares. (Gauntlet, or spiked gauntlet respectively.)
In addition, it was also the only finessable reach weapon, which made it a no-brainer for Combat Reflexes builds. This is ignoring its potential as a trip/disarm weapon (and tripping was very powerful in 3.5).
This is completely true. But without taking into account it's trip/disarm ability (which was corrected in PF in two ways), it was hardly a broken weapon.
To be frank, whenever I got in a discussion with those who hated spiked chain and claimed it was broken I shredded their arguments pretty easilyThe old spiked chain was the only weapon in the game that grants you reach and also lets you threaten adjacent spaces (in other words, a dude with a spiked chain is the only medium-sized threat that a spellcaster or archer can't 5-foot step away from). In addition, it was also the only finessable reach weapon, which made it a no-brainer for Combat Reflexes builds. This is ignoring its potential as a trip/disarm weapon (and tripping was very powerful in 3.5).
I wonder who you were arguing with, that their arguments were so easily shredded. They couldn't have been very familiar with the system.
Well put. A spiked chain was an awesome weapon back when it had reach + ability to strike adjacent. Pair it with quick draw and combat reflexes and eventually weapon specialization and the problem becomes a little more apparent. Could you even have imagined that paired with Lunge? Dear god.
I do think we need more weapons with different rules to encourage breaking from the standard weapons, and that weapons could have been balanced a little better in terms of damage dice. I still don't see how a warhammer does less damage per swing then a longsword....personal gripe though :)
The old spiked chain was the only weapon in the game that grants you reach and also lets you threaten adjacent spaces (in other words, a dude with a spiked chain is the only medium-sized threat that a spellcaster or archer can't 5-foot step away from).That isn't quite true. For 2 gold, or 5 gold if you wanted to do leathal damage, anyone with a reach weapon could threaten adjacent squares. (Gauntlet, or spiked gauntlet respectively.)
The quote was "The old spiked chain was the only weapon "
Not the only way to. Huge difference. With it being only one weapon when you get it enchanced it is cheaper than getting both the spiked gauntlet and the glaive, in addition to everything else it could do.
It was the only single weapon that allowed you to do both as a property of the weapon.
You're right about the spiked armor, my bad.
However, being able to do something with one weapon is considerably better than needing two; your spiked armor is unlikely to have a high enhancement bonus and almost certainly won't have weapon focus/specialization.
I don't know what you're talking about when you say reach fighters aren't worth a damn. Honestly I don't. Most monsters don't have tumble, and extra attacks are a big deal. Are you not using a grid or something?
Ultimately, you're falling back on the "fighters sucked anyway" argument, which is pretty weak. Yes, a fighter with a spiked chain isn't going to break the game, but the spiked chain is still head-and-shoulders above any other weapon a fighter might choose.
Furthermore, the spiked chain wielder doesn't even have to be a fighter; he could be a rogue, or a swordsage, or a half-dragon ogre who takes two fighter levels before prancing off into a prestige class.
"Spiked chain" and "fighter" are two completely different mechanics, and one being underpowered does not absolve the other of being overpowered.
The old spiked chain was the only weapon in the game that grants you reach and also lets you threaten adjacent spaces (in other words, a dude with a spiked chain is the only medium-sized threat that a spellcaster or archer can't 5-foot step away from).That isn't quite true. For 2 gold, or 5 gold if you wanted to do leathal damage, anyone with a reach weapon could threaten adjacent squares. (Gauntlet, or spiked gauntlet respectively.)
The quote was "The old spiked chain was the only weapon "
Not the only way to. Huge difference.
Really? I guess this:
(in other words, a dude with a spiked chain is the only medium-sized threat that a spellcaster or archer can't 5-foot step away from).
Doesn't count at all?
Or do I need to bold it for you?
Either way, the point was that each Exotic Weapon should have a special and unique set of rules attached to it, something that is sort of similar to a Feat that would only work when a player uses that particular weapon. This would make Exotic Weapons glorious.
I think that's an awesome way of looking at it. "Exotic weapons" allow you to write a suite of mutually-exclusive mechanics (since you can't be using two exotic weapons on the same attack), which allows you to go a little more over-the-top than usual.
I think that's an awesome way of looking at it. "Exotic weapons" allow you to write a suite of mutually-exclusive mechanics (since you can't be using two exotic weapons on the same attack), which allows you to go a little more over-the-top than usual.Either way, the point was that each Exotic Weapon should have a special and unique set of rules attached to it, something that is sort of similar to a Feat that would only work when a player uses that particular weapon. This would make Exotic Weapons glorious.
See, I like the way you like the way I think. Ship it. In 6 months time we will see "Pathfinder Companion: Exotic Weapons of Golarion". Can't go wrong, ever perhaps have some weapon style feats that go along with the special mechanics of the exotic weapons, sorta like the Meteor Hammer had a bunch of techniques that could be executed with it.
You're right about the spiked armor, my bad.
However, being able to do something with one weapon is considerably better than needing two; your spiked armor is unlikely to have a high enhancement bonus and almost certainly won't have weapon focus/specialization.
I don't know what you're talking about when you say reach fighters aren't worth a damn. Honestly I don't. Most monsters don't have tumble, and extra attacks are a big deal. Are you not using a grid or something?
Ultimately, you're falling back on the "fighters sucked anyway" argument, which is pretty weak. Yes, a fighter with a spiked chain isn't going to break the game, but the spiked chain is still head-and-shoulders above any other weapon a fighter might choose.
Furthermore, the spiked chain wielder doesn't even have to be a fighter; he could be a rogue, or a swordsage, or a half-dragon ogre who takes two fighter levels before prancing off into a prestige class.
"Spiked chain" and "fighter" are two completely different mechanics, and one being underpowered does not absolve the other of being overpowered.
So you're basing your claim of the Spiked Chain been over powered on the logic of it been better than other weapons. Note, I say "better" not "head and shoulders above".
That argument only works if you subsequently prove that the other weapons you're comparing it to are at the proper power level, and that the difference in power levels is more than a good feat should provide. You haven't even started to do that. Better =/= broken.
Lets really look at the 3.5 spiked chain.
2HW, 2d4 damage, av 5, Weapon Finnese capable, Crit 20 x2, Disarm and Trip type, Reach and adjacent, exotic weapon.It is the only 2 hded weapon that can be used with finnesse. Since 2hded weapons gain there benfits primarily from str this is interesting but not broken.
It is the only single weapon that has reach and can be also used adjacent. This can be duplicated through other weapon combos. Reach weapons on their own, that...
Whoaaaaa there. You're drastically underestimating the usefulness of the chain. Sneak attack? Mobility and spring attack? Paired with combat reflexes you're making a LOT of extra swings, and if you have a decent strength score you're adding a lot of damage (18 str = +6 two handed, +2 Specialization, +whatever enhancement or weapon training). No the spiked chain was kinda broken.
Monsters with reach don't provoke just for charging you, no, but you can attack large creatures who charge at your allies, fly overhead, or try to reach the party wizard. You can place yourself adjacent to a spellcasting creature and still attack something else. You have much greater freedom in granting or providing flanking bonuses. You can even charge at (some) monsters with reach without provoking yourself.
Even if your enemies have reach too, that doesn't change the fact that you control a chunk of grid 15 feet high and 25 feet across. And, of course, when fighting other humanoid gangs you do get the free attack on anyone approaching you.
I've never found reach weapons to be underpowered in combat. They only give up 1-1.5 points of damage, and their tactical benefits easily outweigh their tactical drawbacks (which, by the way, the spiked chain doesn't share).
Likewise, the average damage for a spiked chain is 5. The average damage for a glaive is 5.5, and the average damage for a greatsword is 7. In light of its advantages, this is not a big deal.
And Crit range is over-rated. For a falchion to be as good as a greatsword, your average damage per hit has to be 40 or higher. And that's assuming you have a 50% chance of confirming the crit. When you consider that most crit threats will be secondary or tertiary attacks... Which is still ignoring damage lost to overkill.
This is getting off-track fast, huh?
If it makes you feel better, I rescind the stance that spiked chains are "broken". I never said that, but I implied it when I disagreed with you, which was a mistake. What I mean to say is that they're overpowered.
A "broken" element is one which can't be used as-is (needs to be fixed). "Overpowered" just means that it is clearly better than all other options, to the point where the choice becomes unsatisfying.
I don't think that spiked chains ever broke anyone's game. I think that half-ogre fighter/barbarians with improved trip and/or spring attack broke people's games.
However, while the spiked chain isn't game-breaking, it is (for several different builds) much better than anything else a character might use, even accounting for the feat cost. You admit that yourself, every time you say anything to the effect of "it makes fighters/trip-builds/reach-builds/etc worth a damn".
My interpretation of the semi-"official" answer I read from Jason was this. Exotic weapons should be funky but not really better than other weapons. The spiked chain was both funky and better than its martial counterpart, the heavy flail. Thus it was nerfed so that it wouldn't be better than the heavy flail (in fact it is now worse), but it is still considered funky for flavor reasons. That is why its reach was removed. Issues of balance weren't really the reason, except to say that it indicated that the spiked chain was actually balanced if we consider exotic weapons as better than martial. If we don't, then it wasn't balanced.
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Didn't the OP answer his own question in the first post? I mean...if in 3.5 it was the "only exotic that was worth it" then something was obviously wrong. So they fixed it. Maybe not the way those who abused it would've liked, but it's now in line with the rest of the exotics, power-wise.
Anyways, this has already been discussed ad-naseum in other threads of the same topic since the rules were released.
As was said - the exotics aren't meant to be super-powerful weapons, they're meant to be rare weapons that fit a certain flavor. If you like that flavor for your character concept, take the feat. You've got 3 new ones to throw away at it since 3.5 anyways, so it's not like you're losing anything.
"The half-Ogre......" stop right there. Most attempts at building half-ogres for player use were broken right there. Nothing to do with trip...
That's not true at all; an over-the-top strength score (and +4 size bonus) makes tripping more powerful, and being very good at tripping makes reach more powerful. This is less true for spring attack: it DOES work to pick apart someone with a lesser reach than you, especially if you can knock them down every time you do it. In fact, spring attack has beautiful synergy with a reach build because of the way it lets you reposition yourself at the end of each round. But as for the raw hit springattack-away hit springattack-away etc, real fights aren't one-on-one, and attrition tactics aren't as effective in group combat (as anyone who has played an IH harrier will tell you). But I digress.
It's relevant, yes, but allowing half-ogres doesn't make the spiked chain overpowered.
Likewise, playing a fighter doesn't make it underpowered. That was my point, and I'm glad you agree.
The Spiked Chain is for several different bulds better than anything else a character might use if you don't account for the feat cost or difficulty in obtaining enchanted weapons
I was accounting for the feat cost, thank you.
The ability to threaten adjacent squares with a reach weapon is worth a feat. A solid feat. The feats I've seen to that effect allowed you to wack with the haft for reduced damage, but I feel that was underpowered; allowing you to make an attack at no penalty is fine.
Also allowing you to finesse that weapon is pushing it, though only for some builds (for dex-fiends with some access to precision-based damage). The bonus to disarm checks and the ability to make armed trip attempts (which the weapon tables- rightly, I feel- judge as being with 1.5 points of damage) are too much; especially considering that reach weapons let you do these things without the feats (they can't make an AoO if they don't threaten you).
Obtaining enchanted weapons is a non-issue. If you have access to an item crafter (either in the party or as an ally) you're going to custom order your weapons anyway, whether you're using a spiked chain or not, and options should always be balanced assuming best circumstances.
If your game doesn't have much item creation going on, you simply don't have to use a spiked chain.
What occurs to me when writing this, though, is that this would make a fine Iron Heroes feat (where feats were worth a bit more than in core 3.0 or 3.5). Maybe the power curve caught up with this later on, I have no idea; frankly, after Malhavoc released AU, I didn't pay attention to much that WoTC did. But in core 3.5 it's still a no-brainer for many builds.
I've played in many different groups over the years, upto 3 different games at the same time. I'm the only person who ever took spiked chain. I know of a couple of other players in other games who also took spiked chain a couple of times. I'd be looking at a good 100 odd players here with only 3 having taken Spiked Chain.
Spiked chains are considered cheesy; you said yourself.
Similarly, armor spikes are virtually free power (a few extra GP and your character stays armed no matter what), yet I've never once seen them used in conjunction with a reach weapon. Players only wear them when they want to look like Sauron; actually making melee attacks with them just seems cheesy.
The 2 biggest powergamers I personally know both called it cheesy but nonetheless never took it despite neither of them having ever been observed finding a game break they wouldn't take.
In short for all that it received much ballyhoo on the nets it wasn't considered as the overwhelmingly best option by players in practice. Therefore it wasn't overpowered.
Even as far as anecdotal evidence goes, I have to say that's pretty weak.
Following up on the "power curve" thoughts, I'd like to note that in 3.0, bastard sword proficiency really WAS worth a feat. Especially if you didn't have martial weapon proficiency anyway.
It granted +1 damage (more for clerics) with 1 weapon. Weapon Specialization granted +2 damage with one weapon, but that was a fighter class feature, and those who had access to it took it immediately (it was intentionally overpowered). For most character, if you wanted to deal more damage (without hurting your attack bonus), an exotic weapon was the only option you had.
3.5 raised the bar slightly, by improving Power Attack and making Two-weapon Fighting one feat, and exotic weapons may have fallen behind somewhat, and Pathfinder has raised the bar slightly more (though its trimmed a few problem feats in the process).
Honestly, I'm still undecided on whether the spiked chain needed to be nerfed for 3.P. It certainly didn't need to be nerfed this much.
But I still contend that the spiked chain was too powerful in previous editions.
Following up on the "power curve" thoughts, I'd like to note that in 3.0, bastard sword proficiency really WAS worth a feat. Especially if you didn't have martial weapon proficiency anyway.
It granted +1 damage (more for clerics) with 1 weapon. Weapon Specialization granted +2 damage with one weapon, but that was a fighter class feature, and those who had access to it took it immediately (it was intentionally overpowered). For most character, if you wanted to deal more damage (without hurting your attack bonus), an exotic weapon was the only option you had.
3.5 raised the bar slightly, by improving Power Attack and making Two-weapon Fighting one feat, and exotic weapons may have fallen behind somewhat, and Pathfinder has raised the bar slightly more (though its trimmed a few problem feats in the process).
Honestly, I'm still undecided on whether the spiked chain needed to be nerfed for 3.P. It certainly didn't need to be nerfed this much.
But I still contend that the spiked chain was too powerful in previous editions.
I agree completely. Unfortunately I feel that the problem is weapons aren't different enough from each other to actualy justify using many of them. Take Rapier and Kukri for instance. Almost NEVER see a rogue use anything else.Slap a little 2 weapon fighting in there and throw in keen for good measure and the 15-20 crit chaos begins. I just can't help but feel that a good deal of the weapons in Pathfinder could have used an overhaul. How many of you regularly use shortspears or ranseurs?
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I agree completely. Unfortunately I feel that the problem is weapons aren't different enough from each other to actualy justify using many of them. Take Rapier and Kukri for instance. Almost NEVER see a rogue use anything else.Slap a little 2 weapon fighting in there and throw in keen for good measure and the 15-20 crit chaos begins. I just can't help but feel that a good deal of the weapons in Pathfinder could have used an overhaul. How many of you regularly use shortspears or ranseurs?
Why would a rogue use a kukri? Unless he's based on Telling Blow from Player's Handbook 2, critical hits are rather uninteresting for a rogue. And he's not even proficient with the kukri.
On topic, if exotic weapons are about unusual weapons, why do I have to take a feat to use a larger, but still onehanded sword? That doesn't strike me as very exotic.
On the worth of weapon finesse, the elven curved blade is a finessable falchion, with the difference of dealing more damage instead of less. The threat range isn't changed, either.
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In regards to every lover of cool weapons vs. realism. In reality, lets face it no one could use that weapon to effect like a martial artist. This is fantasy. some one refrenced Kill Bill. I also will be refrencing every marital arts movie that has shown a chain whip or chain whip like weapon. Shangi-High Noon. Jackie Chan uses a horse Shoe and rope to get the effect of a chain whip!Pssst.thats reach! Why oh why is it broken. Its not! For all the crap said. All weapons are better in certain hands then others. weapons of reach that are light are really dangerous. I could argue in the realm of reality that a man armed with a quarter staff/Spear/or the like should have reach as well. most spiked chains are as long as the spear in real life.
On the note of reach being a feat is bolder dash. Certain weapons for up close, distance and the in between. My favorite movie is The Legend with Jet-li. At the end he has a big fight with a japanese soldier. the guy pulls a sword, jet-li gets the hell out of the way long enough to pull off his belt. This time when the guy comes at Jet he cracks him three times in the fore head for his efforts. The belt gave him reach! he could counter and trip and be more affective against a skilled enemy with the weapon of choice. The soldier trimed down the belt eventually, but damage done. Now if Jet-li would have had a real spiked chain then the guy would have had a beating or change tactics. Probably would have gone for a quarterstaff. Would have been my choice vs a chain whip. Breaks metal easily, but not as effective against someone who has reach as well. Or who is right on top of you.
Not gonna get into a shouting match or defend my thoughts no point it it. But it Needed fixed and it has been. You will like that or you will hate that and some really will not care
that simple
You say it needed fixing but you won't explain why you think it needed fixing or discuss it.
Seriously, why did you bother posting?
Stephen
The OP asked, I replied. It was the best exotic weapon in the game so they fixed that. If you do not like it houserule it.
This is not aimed at anyone but it seems all the b+#$$ing is about stuff that was often abused not just the chain but as a whole. If ya notice people who thought it was abused out number the folks that thought it was the best thing since cake.
Sucks to be on the loosing side but them the brakes
