I want my lion animal companion to have Improved Grapple, but Improved Grapple has Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite. I'm not even really sure what a lion would do with improved unarmed strike.
For that matter, if I were advancing a giant spider, and I wanted to give it improved grapple, would that spider need improved unarmed strike? Is a spider really going to go around punching things?
Are there rules I am missing somewhere?
If it is a prerequisite then I am pretty sure they need it.I was doing the same thing with a animal companion constrictor so he needed the feat.
Did your snake ever punch anyone, just to physically intimidate them?
I want my lion animal companion to have Improved Grapple, but Improved Grapple has Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite. I'm not even really sure what a lion would do with improved unarmed strike.
For that matter, if I were advancing a giant spider, and I wanted to give it improved grapple, would that spider need improved unarmed strike? Is a spider really going to go around punching things?
Are there rules I am missing somewhere?
I think an animal would use grab from the bestiary in place of grapple. I couldn't see a bestiary feat based on it though. The equivalent to unarmed strike is the lion's proficiency in its natural weapons. It's (as usual) up to your GM.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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As Chief says, most creatures that grapple a lot just get grab instead (which is much better), I doubt you will find any creatures in the bestiary with Improved Grapple.
Big cat animal companion gets Grab at 7th level. (as does the constrictor snake).
Edit: Improved Grapple isn't on the list of animal feats so you would have to give it a 3 intelligence first.
Did your snake ever punch anyone, just to physically intimidate them?
"Teaching snakes to kick since 1999."
Improved Unarmed Strike means Kung Fu. So, if you want abilitites that are even slightly Kung Fu-ish, you have to take the Kung Fu feat first. Sometimes, Feral Combat Training too. Double the feat tax is double the fun!
Are there rules I am missing somewhere?
What is there to miss? If the critter wants the feat, it has to meet the prerequisite. If a grabbing creature want to stack the deck by getting Improved grapple, it has to "burn" a feat on the unneeded Improved Unarmed strike.
The argument that could be made here is that the entry specifies with 3 Int an AC can get "any feat they are physically capable of using".
You could argue now if animals are really physically capable of IUS.
I believe the Improved Grapple is not even the goal here, it's the Greater Grapple, isn't it?
I could see changing the prerequisite for animals into something different really. The logic behind the IUS prerequisite is that it assumes you wrap your arms and/or legs around someone and then pull them to the ground judo- or wrestling-style, and therefor you need IUS which is basicly Martial Arts 101.
Makes sense for human grappling.
Maybe Weapon Focus on the attack that has the grab property? Or Improved Natural Attack? That would at least make some sort of sense there.
That way it's still a feat tax, but on something that they can actually use. Humans may not be umarmed fighters but IUS might be handy here and there for them.
I just don't see IUS make ANY sense at all for an animal. I like Tigress from Kung Fu Panda, but that's not really how I imagine my tiger will be fighting :)
I guess in the end it will be up to your GM to decide, by RAW they need the feat, but it's silly.
Archomedes, IMO, it doesn't make sense to require an animal to be required to take IUS as a qualification for other feats.
Improved Unarmed Strike (Combat)
You are skilled at fighting while unarmed. The animal already is.Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed—you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you attack foes while unarmed. Your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your choice. So everyone else is arguing that it's the choice to deal non-lethal damage that make it a requirement? Um, no.
Normal: Without this feat, you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike, and you can deal only nonlethal damage with such an attack. So per RAW, all animals are hosed, because they need IUS in order to deal lethal damage and be considered armed with their natural attacks...
I'm with Quatar; if you apply sense to the equation, you can move past whatever you think RAW says, and consider animals to already qualify for feats, as if they possessed IUS. Because they do.
Grappling(wresting) :) , can be said to be a form of martial arts, and most humans will lose to most animals in this contest.
More seriously:It depends on if you view IUS as a complete martial arts form or just as a way to know how to strike with your body. I see it as number 2 so I don't mind the animal taking it.
I don't really care for combat expertise as a prereq to improved trip either. Unarmed strike should have been the pre-req for that one also, IMHO.
Its also a balance issue. Your animal companions shouldn't be able to wander into the cool monk stuff without paying some sort of toll.
You need an int of 3 to take improved unarmed strike, and then need to wait to take improved grapple. This should prevent the animal companion from completely outdoing the fighting types... (we hope)
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Its also a balance issue. Your animal companions shouldn't be able to wander into the cool monk stuff without paying some sort of toll.
You need an int of 3 to take improved unarmed strike, and then need to wait to take improved grapple. This should prevent the animal companion from completely outdoing the fighting types... (we hope)
Except, y'know, that grappling is *what a plethora of predators do*. Arguably, the monk is infringing on animal territory instead of the other way around.
Except, y'know, that grappling is *what a plethora of predators do*. Arguably, the monk is infringing on animal territory instead of the other way around.
I'm not overly concerned about prioritizing a niche filled by a class feature.
Except, y'know, that grappling is *what a plethora of predators do*. Arguably, the monk is infringing on animal territory instead of the other way around.
Sure, but that is already represented without taking Improved Grapple. They have Grab, size, and strength to make them good at grappling. Having the animal spend an extra feat on Unarmed Strike if you want to stack its grapple ability even higher than it already is doesn't seem ridiculous to me.
BNW, I'm just not seeing how an animal could ever get close to the damage a fighting PC can dish out.
I know what my 12th level sword and board TWF fighter is capable of, and I can't see an animal ever even getting close.
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There is a way in the game for humanoids to get 'good' at grappling, it's called Improved Grapple. If a character wants to get grab they do it the way animals do it, by getting a natural attack that has grab associated with it.
There is a way in the game for animals to get 'good' at grappling, the developers give that creature grab. If an animal wants Improved Grapple they need to do it the way characters do it, by taking Improved Unarmed Strike.
Look at it this way, Improved Grapple is a form of martial arts. If you want your bear to know Kung fu, you need to teach your bear the basic forms first.
Except that the bear already has the basic form(s). Animals already have the benefit provided by improved unarmed strike, simply by virtue of their natural attacks.
I agree that they'd need improved grapple, if they wanted the benefit of improved grapple, but as for the pre-req, they already meet it.
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Rule-wise the prereqs must be met. An unarmed strike does not count as a a natural attack in Pathfinder for the purpose of feats, and vice-versa. If it did then monks could take improved natural attack.
PS:There is even a feat specially made to allow you to treat natural attacks as unarmed strikes to qualify for feats
Feral Combat Training (Combat)
You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
edit:clarification
Rule-wise the prereqs must be met. An unarmed strike does not count as a a natural attack in Pathfinder for the purpose of feats, and vice-versa. If it did then monks could take improved natural attack.
PS:There is even a feat specially made to allow you to treat natural attacks as unarmed strikes to qualify for feats
edit:clarificationFeral Combat Training (Combat)
You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
It's weird that it still requires Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.
It's weird that it still requires Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.Rule-wise the prereqs must be met. An unarmed strike does not count as a a natural attack in Pathfinder for the purpose of feats, and vice-versa. If it did then monks could take improved natural attack.
PS:There is even a feat specially made to allow you to treat natural attacks as unarmed strikes to qualify for feats
edit:clarificationFeral Combat Training (Combat)
You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
I did not even catch that. The only benefit that it really seems to have is that any affect that enhances unarmed strikes also enhances that natural attack. I guess a kraken monk would like this feat. :)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Except that the bear already has the basic form(s). Animals already have the benefit provided by improved unarmed strike, simply by virtue of their natural attacks.
Animals know how to use their natural attack forms (aka grab). They don't know human martial arts (IUS/ Improved Grapple).
There are two paths to getting good at grappling. If you expect to be the king grappler, you must master both paths.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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It's weird that it still requires Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.I did not even catch that. The only benefit that it really seems to have is that any affect that enhances unarmed strikes also enhances that natural attack. I guess a kraken monk would like this feat. :)
Feral Combat Training was originally meant to be a replacement for IUS for characters who wanted to take the martial arts styles and use them with their natural attacks from class abilities (Alchemists claws, sorcerer claws, half orc bite, etc). The developer pushed back and asked me to rewrite it with the IUS pre-req. I grumbled a bit because I thought it was the kiss of death for the feat. After a few months now, I see a fair number of people are taking the feat in spite of the extra cost. It turns out that the combat styles are pretty powerful and character natural attacks are also pretty powerful; a fair number of people are willing to grab the extra feat to combine the two. I'm coming around to the developer's point of view on this one, seems like the final version is just fine.
ok. Thanks for the explanation. I was pretty doubtful before about the feat.
Except that the bear already has the basic form(s). Animals already have the benefit provided by improved unarmed strike, simply by virtue of their natural attacks.Animals know how to use their natural attack forms (aka grab). They don't know human martial arts (IUS/ Improved Grapple).
There are two paths to getting good at grappling. If you expect to be the king grappler, you must master both paths.
Au contraire, mon frer. Have you never seen Kung Fu Panda?
darn, now I want to make a companion that can use boar style with his claws, too bad I don't have enough feats available to do that yet. I want my lion to have greater grapple, but I suppose I have to reach level 9 before that is even relevant. I'll ask my DM if I can retrain my lion's feats at that level.
As a DM, since I don't think that things should have to suck, I would have grab or constrict special qualities as a perquisite for a homebrew monster feat that allows a monster to make a grapple check as a move action and counts as improved grapple and greater grapple for the purpose of qualifying for other feats. The trade off being that improved grapple and greater grapple net you a +4 bonus to CMB and CMD regarding grappling. I would let animal companions take this feat.
But as a player I prefer not to push things too far for the sake of everyone else having fun. Having a lion mount as a paladin is sort of stretching things as it is.
Clearly the kung-fu panda has gone down both paths ;)
Aye, the twin style paths of bodacious and awesome!
You know, it's kinda sad that I like that cartoon better than my 1 year old daughter does...