RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4
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Star Voter Season 6
aka raidou
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Last Ride of the Mammoth Lords is an adventure for four or five 8th level characters, featuring a mix of combat, role-playing, skill-use and puzzle-solving. The PCs will have reached 9th level before they begin the final encounter.
Scene 1 (CR9):
The PCs begin in the sprawling springtime marketplace of the northern city of Gundron. Eight tribesmen, sluggish and seemingly drunk, lumber through the crowd, heedless of whom they knock down. Four armed tribesmen trail behind, nervously watching their kin. An angry merchant adjacent to the PCs grabs the arm of a slow-moving barbarian who has swiped some meat off the merchant’s cart. Suddenly the bazaar explodes into savage violence. The eight enraged 4th level barbarians attack bystanders, merchants, and PCs with lethal force. Immediately, the tribesmen in the smaller group move to engage their kin, aiding the PCs and doing their best to defend fleeing citizens.
When struck, these barbarians bleed with a slow, sticky sap. Their skin is a rough patchwork of bark-like lesions that erupt upon a barbarian’s death, spilling acorn-sized seeds all about.
Scene 2:
The surviving tribesmen attempt to make amends with the merchants, guards, and customers, and thank the PCs for their assistance. Their leader, a tribal sub-chief named Haëndir, introduces himself and explains their problem:
A virulent toxin, originating within the Great Ice Shelf, is polluting the rivers and streams of the Mammoth Lords. Their elders do nothing, claiming that a tribesman’s survival in the tundra is solely the product of his own strength and endurance. Every outlander Haëndir approaches for assistance turns him down; the crusaders in Mendev fight their own war, and both Numerian and Belzken barbarians are unconcerned with the affairs of the Mammoth Lords. Haëndir’s followers have become near-exiles, questing for aid to their ailing tribes.
The Toxin: This ingested venom acts in three stages. Thirst and lethargy come first. Within days, moving causes great pain and the toxin begins to deteriorate a victim’s mental abilities. Beyond this stage, a victim is barely mobile, as his body transforms into primarily plant matter. Magic such as neutralize poison acts as if the human tissue is the toxin, killing the victim.
Having observed the PCs’ prowess in battle, Haëndir pleads with them for help. Should they accept, the PCs depart the city with Haëndir and his followers, journeying into the tundra to meet with the young tribal sub-chiefs. The tribesmen’s mounts are lean, horned, triceratops-like creatures bred for tundra life. Haëndir offers a saurian mount to each PC skilled in riding or handling animals, and teaches them how to “set” a horned mount to meet a charge.
Scene 3 (CR10):
Trolls from Irrisen spot the PCs as they cross the broken borderlands near Hillscross into the western tundra. These trolls ride upon great, vulture-like dinosaurs – black-feathered megaraptors that move across the rough ground at incredible speeds. There is no way to outrun them, but the PCs have time to prepare. Three trolls and two megaraptors target the PCs directly, while other battles rage around them. Trolls leap from their mounts onto the PCs’ beasts, forcing ride checks to keep the beasts controlled.
Scene 4 (four CR7 events):
Many tribes gather at a springtime festival of brawn and debauchery. The tribal elders feud with their younger sub-chiefs over the plight of the tribes. The PCs speak with the sub-chiefs who desperately want to save their peoples. The sub-chiefs know that a massive vine-like creature is burrowing its way through the glacier, its poisonous sap seeping into glacial waters. They call it “Jökul-Vidja” (YOH-kool VEED-yah), the “Creeping Abomination”, and add that one of the Abomination’s tendrils has recently burst from the glacier above a frost giant gravesite. Tribal custom marks the Great Ice Shelf as taboo; expeditions there have only brought reprisals from giants, dragons, and worse. Further, the sub-chiefs know little of sorcery – they recognize that whatever is happening in the glacier is beyond their understanding, and possibly beyond their ability to defeat.
If the PCs can convince the sub-chiefs of their ability to help the tribes, the young leaders will marshal a host of their people to journey to the foot of the glacier in defiance of their elders. This diplomacy might take a little work, but fortunately at this festival there are “games” to test the qualities of any true barbarian. Success at any of the following raises the PCs’ disposition with the sub-chiefs.
Tests of Mettle
Tests of Character
Scene 5 (CR10):
PCs and their barbarian allies ride to the foot of the glacier, where vast piles of rubble and ice mix with bleached mammoth skeletons and giants’ skulls. This is a desecrated gravesite. While exploring, the PCs are attacked by three rune-etched mammoth skeletons (Rajpat Ampuri, PF#9, p.84), which rise from the rubble. Afterward, the PCs and their allies must leave their mounts behind and ascend the mounds of debris to where the Abomination’s tendrils have erupted from the glacier wall, tumbling in thick strands to the tundra below.
Scene 6:
The otherworldly vines burrowing through the ice emit a burning, acidic poison. The vines do not attack, but cutting them sprays this toxin everywhere. The vines melt the glacier as they tunnel, creating wide caverns and sending torrents of water rushing deep into the interior. PCs and their allies enter these caves, and can excavate an entire frost giant longship (the funeral boat of a mighty Jarl) from the ice. Entombed within is a massive curled hunting horn, carved from a single tusk and scarred with giant runes. When blown, this device can animate the undead mammoths found in the graveyard below.
After excavating this boat, the PCs must choose a crew of 20 from among the tribesmen willing to venture further, then sail this enormous vessel through raging river tunnels, into the heart of the glacier. Gargantuan, writhing vines line the waterways, providing a roadmap to the party’s destination.
Scene 7 (CR10):
The PCs’ longship careens through the rapids, coming to rest in a wide lake at the base of the glacier, many miles from where they began. A crack in the northeastern glacier wall reveals a steaming jungle beyond. The PCs are now free to explore this new land. A taiga giant (PF#4, p.84) observes the longship’s arrival and determines that the PCs are grave robbers. It waits until PCs begin their exploration, then ferociously attacks unless calmed or bribed. Its initial attitude is hostile.
The primeval jungle exists in an ice cavern roughly ten miles in diameter. The oppressive heat of the place vents outward through fissures in the ice. From these great cracks, raging waterfalls re-enter the jungle, draining to the south. Massive beams of light emerge from holes in the glacier walls, converging at a temple complex in the heart of the jungle, and providing continuous daylight to the entire area.
Dinosaurs, girallons, carnivorous plants, and monstrous vermin wander the jungle. These encounters range from CR7 to CR9 and mainly add flavor and danger to this realm. The jungle contains five distinct sites.
Forgotten Tribe:
In the southwestern jungle, a matriarchal barbarian tribe has endured for generations. Their leader is Izira, a mighty, red-haired queen every bit as ruthless as any Mammoth Lord chieftain. She knows the ways of the Mammoth Lords because she was once one of them; her young son died during a tribal journey in the depths of winter. In a blind fury, she slaughtered the chieftain, her husband, and fled to the east. There, she became a slave of the Witch Queen of Irrisen.
Izira journeyed to this jungle at the Witch Queen’s behest, to release Jökul-Vidja from captivity, poisoning the tribes of the Mammoth Lords and clearing the tundra for the Witch Queen’s anticipated alliance with the demonic Worldwound.
Izira overthrew the reigning matriarch of the native barbarians, assuming command of the two hundred–strong tribe. She then moved the seven ziggurats (see the Temple of the Ancestors), strengthening the Abomination by flooding the Temple grounds with red radiance.
Jökul-Vidja, the Creeping Abomination:
This swath of jungle spreads from the Temple of the Ancestors to the western face of the glacier wall, writhing and crawling with thorn-studded, alien vines. The vines climb and burrow into the western ice wall. Plant monsters flourish in this area, particularly shambling mounds and the bizarre, alien Moonflowers (PF#14, p.82). The Abomination’s growth accelerates when bathed in strong red, orange, and yellow light (such as Golarion’s natural sunlight).
Cornerstones:
Three giant, rune-covered monoliths stand in wide glacial caverns to the northeast, east, and southeast of the jungle. They are receptacles for elemental and psychic energy, built long ago by prophets attempting to save their civilization from the destruction ravaged upon Golarion by the Starfall and the resulting northern Ice Age. Each of these receptacles harnesses an element type – cold, wind, and fire – and transforms that energy via Energy Absorption (a psionic power) into powerful rays of daylight that shine through holes in the glacier wall and project toward the Temple.
For decades, a powerful salamander sorcerer and its fiery minions have laired in the southeastern volcanic caves housing the Flame Cornerstone. Izira impressed them with her audacity, and they willingly obey her request to block the Cornerstone’s light from reaching the Temple. Thus, no beams of light emerge from the hole in the southeastern wall of the glacier.
Taiga Giants:
A tribe of cautious, spiritual giants occupies the northern jungle. They keep to themselves, but are quick to put down intrusions into their domain. The taiga giants know a great deal about the workings of the Cornerstones, the Temple of the Ancestors, and the Prismatic Nexus.
Temple of the Ancestors:
In the center of the jungle is an Aztec-inspired city built on a series of canals. Now mostly vine-choked ruins, the city prominently features seven ziggurats, studded with quartz, jade, and amethyst shards and topped with hulking prism-like crystals. These temples’ locations in the city form a heptagon. There is a vacant, square foundation in the center of the city, the same size as the base of a ziggurat.
The city is the focal point for five blazing beams of daylight, shining from two holes in the glacier walls. Currently, three beams of daylight emerge from the northeastern hole and two beams emerge from the east. A third opening to the southeast projects no light. Each beam of light passes through a prism atop a ziggurat, where it refracts into a smaller beam of solid color, red through violet. Five ziggurat prisms are therefore active, and two have no light arriving at their prisms. Each colored beam of light projects clockwise toward a circular relief on the next ziggurat. Of the five active beams of color projecting from the ziggurats’ prisms, four are red and one is yellow.
The city’s temples function as a giant sliding-block puzzle. Given enough strength, these ziggurats can be dislodged, then pulled or pushed along grooves built into the city’s interconnected canals. The ancients used huge dinosaurs for this purpose, but the PCs might devise their own means of moving the ziggurats.
Each ziggurat is set on a square foundation. There are eight of these water-filled foundations in all, seven at points along the outer canals and one in the central city. Each ziggurat, once moved into a foundation along the outer canals, catches a beam of daylight from the glacier walls and projects its colored beam as described above. Each ziggurat will change the color it emits depending on where it is set; different ziggurats tested in the same foundation also emit different colors.
Two beams of light will emerge from the southeastern glacier wall once the PCs re-enable the Flame Cornerstone (see Cornerstones, above), allowing all seven ziggurats to receive beams of daylight.
Within the city area, spells with the [light] descriptor deal energy damage depending on which color is “dominant” in the area – if four or more beams have identical colors, that color is considered dominant. Such spells deal fire damage in a red-dominant area, and deal cold damage in a blue-dominant area. Different configurations of ziggurats apply different effects to the environment. When all colors are represented evenly (one beam of each color), the city’s light equalizes and the Prismatic Nexus activates.
Scene 8 (CR8):
The PCs leave the boat and discover the matriarchal tribe. Initially, the queen and her barbarians are cautious but hospitable. She secretly plots to separate the PCs from the tribesmen, to better target smaller groups as the PCs explore the jungle. The PCs might sense motive, revealing her desire for bloodshed. Though a role-playing encounter (the queen should not attack the PCs immediately), the PCs receive XP for anticipating danger.
Scene 9 (multiple CR9 encounters):
The PCs explore the Temple grounds. Within the city’s ziggurats are glyphs describing specific arrangements of the temples. By deciphering the glyphs, the PCs can piece together the correct placement of the monuments to achieve specific effects – such as weakening the Abomination. Enemies here include derro ghouls, ancient golems, and undead horrors known as radiant wraiths.
New Monster: A radiant wraith is a type of incorporeal undead that appears as a vaguely man-shaped aura of light. Its touch attacks deal energy damage based on the wraith’s current hue. A radiant wraith can alter its color once per round, thus modifying its energy damage. If a radiant wraith’s hue matches the dominant light color within the city, it deals extra energy damage with that attack.
Scene 10 (CR10):
The PCs try to restore the Flame Cornerstone. This brings them into conflict with the fiery denizens of the volcanic caves (see Cornerstones, above) and alerts Izira that they are close to unraveling her plans. The salamander’s minions include advanced magmin, mephits, and hellhounds.
Scene 11 (CR8):
The PCs attempt diplomacy with the taiga giants, perhaps by making amends for the death of the giants’ kinsman when first arriving in the jungle. If made helpful, the giants will explain how the ziggurats used to operate, and will suggest that the Ancestors held Jökul-Vidja dormant for many years by “balancing” the radiant energy in the city. An alliance with the taiga giants awards XP and causes the city’s radiant wraiths to become indifferent toward the party rather than hostile.
Scene 12 (CR10):
Once the PCs begin moving the ziggurats, Izira attacks – first by sabotage (killing dinosaurs, severing ropes or chains, etc.) and then by brute force. Izira is a 9th level barbarian and rides an elite wyvern mount. She leads a strong team of five 5th level barbarians and rangers.
Scene 13 (CR9 and CR13):
The PCs assemble the ziggurats such that all seven beams are unique colors, in order (red through violet), creating the Prismatic Nexus. This effect bathes the entire city in soft white light. The Prismatic Nexus is a conduit that taps directly into energy from the elemental planes, maintaining a stable environment despite the prevailing climate (such as an ice age or a world-spanning darkness). It is how this jungle has survived intact for so long. Figuring out how to piece together the Prismatic Nexus awards experience equal to a CR9 encounter.
The Prismatic Nexus is debilitating to aberrant creatures, causing them constant agony while within its radiance. Consider affected creatures sickened for combat purposes. Once active, the Prismatic Nexus draws Jökul-Vidja forth. The entire city rumbles as the Abomination’s main nerve center rips upward through flagstones to assault any living creature in its path.
The Abomination’s nerve center is effectively an elite, plant-typed ten-headed hydra (CR12 for being sickened; normally CR13) able to breathe sizzling jets of toxic slime. A massive stalk of aberrant plant matter supports its great bulk. Consider the Abomination an aberration for the Prismatic Nexus’s sickening effect. Slaying the nerve center ends the Abomination’s threat, as the entire mass of burrowing vines freezes inside the glacier within hours.
Concluding the Adventure: The Mammoth Lord sub-chiefs honor the returning PCs as living legends, showering them with gifts and composing epic tales of their deeds. In addition, they grant each PC a triceratops-like mount as a gesture of friendship.
Initial Impression
Good first hook, but when I started I thought it was going to be lame.
Oh! I get a dinosaur mount! Cool!
Trolls on flying raptors!
A frozen plant abomination thing.
OK, you've got my attention...
"Roc" diving and mamoth jousting? Those should lead to bragging rights for years to come at the table.
Ice caves.
Frozen boats.
More trolls.
Man, this looks like a memorable adventure.
It definately has some Pathfinder links, too.
Not sure I like the sliding block puzzle. Seems a bit like a videogame challenge.
But it sets up some fun and what looks like a great final fight.
Wow. I like this one too.
Kobold Press
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The barbarians, the dinosaurs, the mysterious glacier plant: you've got a great pulp feel going on here, and a real sense of the northern frontier. I like the setup for the most part (though subarctic dinosaurs seems a bit odd to me, I'm willing to go with it...). This is a recipe for wahoo goodness.
The first misstep I see is in Scene 6, where the logic falls apart for me. The viking longboat as a method to get into the glacier makes less sense to me: don't rivers flow away from the base of a glacier? How does this river start above the ice, exactly? If the acid is creating the river, doesn't the acid eat away the boat? Why must the PCs be saddled with 20 tagalongs? I'm guessing they are redshirts, possibly annoying for the DM, possibly great fun to kill off one by one. But the logic is getting weird, in a bad way, and the focus is drifting from the PCs.
I'm further confused by the location of the jungle relative to the glacier. The boat is in the lake at the base of a glacier, but is it inside or outside the glacier? My suspension of disbelief is starting to crack as I don't really see the jungle/glacier combo working that well without a whole lot of handwaving.
Then there's the problem of the sheer number of creatures and associated stats. Scenes like #9 with the ghouls, golems, and radiant wraiths or #10 with the salamander, advanced magmin, mephits, and hellhound are going to chew up a LOT of wordcount.
The ziggurat puzzle doesn't do much for me either. It just seems arbitrary.
All that said... the finale with the plant hydra is pure Conan/Ffarhd and the Grey Mouser goodness. I want to run that one. The troubles with logic and the monster list can be fixed, but perhaps not in the space available.
I like the big pulp fun of this pitch, but there's enough concerns here that I'm not ready to give it a full vote of support.
Creative Director
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While I'm a huge fan of dinosaurs, that can be a double-edged sword for proposals that feature dinosaurs. I like them a lot, and as a result I tend to be a lot more critical of how they're used in adventures, and as a result of THAT dinosaur-themed adventures are ironically tougher to impress me with than adventures that don't feature dinosaurs.
That said, while this proposal certainly has a lot of really interesting set pieces, dynamic combats, and a cool mix of monsters, in the end, it collapses under its own weight and the numerous problems and questions I see with it.
Things I Liked in this Proposal
Barbarian Contests: I'm a big fan of contests like these. Encounters that put the PCs in unusual situations and require from them unusual tactics are cool.
Mammoth Jousting: This has a LOT of opportunity for fun mayhem.
Frozen Frost Giant Ship: The concept of a frost giant burial ship lodged in a glacier and sending the PCs down to explore it is really cool. I could honestly see an entire adventure built around this concept if the frozen ship was large enough.
Radiant Wraiths: The idea of an undead creature that has ties to the prismatic spray spells or other colored lights is really cool and interesting... the name, however, taints the idea for me (see below).
Creeping Abomination: This is a cool monster. I want to know more about where it comes from.
Things I Didn't Like in this Proposal
Too Epic: A 32 page module is no place to present an adventure that features a menace that could destroy an entire region. The Creeping Abomination is a neat idea, but having it be such a huge menace to the entire Mammoth Lord Realm is too much.
Illogical First Scene: I may have read the proposal wrong, but I got the impression that the barbarians that the PCs face in the first scene were not the first sap-blooded poisoned barbarians that showed up in the Realm of the Mammoth Lords, especially since the locals seem to know where to go to find out more. If this isn't the first manifestation of this affliction, how were these four troublemakers able to make it uncontested so far into the marketplace?
Cheating Toxins: The effects of the toxin seem to me to work more like a curse than a poison. I'm not a fan of introducing a poison into the game that "isn't really a poison" just so that you can't cure it with neutralize poison. If an adventure can be undone by a 4th level spell, don't make that 4th level spell useless; you should instead work with the spell and create a situation that's so overwhelming that there's just not enough 4th level spells to go around. That's how we handled the problem of a city-wide plague in Pathfinder (and explained why a plague like this can happen in a city where remove disease spells are, in theory, easy to get).
Plot Elements Left Dangling: Why aren't there more sap-blooded poisoned victims encountered during the adventure? If this is such a huge problem to the Realm of the Mammoth Lords, I would have expected the PCs to run into the problem more than just in the first encounter.
Misplaced Dinosaurs: The Realm of the Mammoth Lords is a region populated by megafauna like woolly rhinos, sabre-tooted tigers, mammoths and mastodons, giant ground sloths, and the like. Dinosaurs exist, but they're limited to isolated "lost valleys" and, in the majority, to the region known as Tolguth to the far east. There's a deep underground cavern far below this region known as Deep Tolguth; a lost world of underground suns, ziggurats, jungles, and dinosaurs, and this is the source of the dinosaurs in the world above. In any case, dinosaurs are relatively rare in the Realm of the Mammoth Lords, growing MORE rare the further west you go. As a result, all of the dinosaur mounts are illogical. It's the realm of the Mammoth Lords, after all; the barbarians should be riding mammoths, not triceratops. The troll invaders from the west (the region where dinos are less populous) should be mounted on terror birds or axe beaks, not megaraptors.
Unnecessary Encounters: The encounter with the dinosaur-mounted trolls is unnecessary; it's basically a wandering monster encounter and does nothing to advance to the plot of the module that a random monster attack wouldn't add. It just takes away word count from an adventure that, I suspect, is already going to be heavy on word count.
Assuming Character Limitation: Also in the troll encounter, the writer says, "There's no way to outrun them." This is lazy encounter design; by 8th level, you should assume that the PCs can cast fly or dimension door or haste or can cast expeditious retreat or whatever; there's PLENTY of ways for an 8th level party to escape this encounter if they want. A better solution would be to drive home the point that if the PCs abandon their fellow barbarians, they'll be killed.
Barbarian Contests: While I mentioned I liked this above... it's also a bit too close to what we did already in Pathfinder 10's "A History of Ashes." Sure, the contests are different, but the idea is the same.
Silly Names: The recommended pronunciation of the word "Jokul" sounds exactly like the word "yokel." Gives the monster the wrong vibe, that of a bumbling halfwit country bumpkin. It's a good idea to say all the names you invent out loud, and to find a critical friend who's good at making fun of names to run them by.
Misplaced Undead Elephants: The rajput ambaris are from Vudra, and have a very definite Indian theme to them. Vudra has nothing to do with this adventure, and so the rajupt ambaris shouldn't either, especially since frost giants (the implied source of the undead elephants in this module) are rip-offs of Viking culture, not Indian culture.
Fire, not Acid: Wouldn't it be better to have the Creeping Abomination's vines use heat instead of acid to burrow through ice?
Land of the Lost: This adventure is basically a reworking of Land of the Lost, with the explorers riding a boat down a waterfall into a forgotten cavern filled with dinosaurs and ancient ruins left behind by a mysterious race. Since we've got a big-time Will Ferrell movie remake of Land of the Lost coming out in a few months, the timing of this is even more unfortunate. On top of that, the logic of riding a ship down ice tunnel rivers into a cave below stretches my suspension of disbelief.
Glacial Jungle: The idea of a jungle flourishing under a glacier is really cool... but it needs to be justified. It can't just BE there. This is a huge set piece that needs to have a lot of details in it, and a 32 page module can't really do it justice, I fear, unless the ENTIRE adventure's set there. Worse... we already have an underground lost world jungle infested with dinosaurs in the area: Deep Tolguth, which is detailed in "Into the Darklands." It's wasteful to set an adventure in such a region in an entirely different area than the one that's already established to be in the region.
Misplaced Derro: It's hard to have derro ghouls, since "ghoul" isn't a template. Golarion also has a pretty specific role developing for derro already anyway; they're creepy Darklands-dwelling folk who dwell under cities and other populous areas so they can do midnight abductions to perform experiments on surface-dwellers. There's not enough surface dwellers in this region to justify enough derro in the region that there'd be enough to be a long-lasting ghoul supply.
Earthfall: I'm not sure Earthfall is the cause of the Ice Age. Nor am I sure Golarion's IN an Ice Age.
Psionics: I know its a tiny nod, but still... including energy absorption in the adventure opens a huge can of worms. It'd be better to translate this power into a divine or arcane magic version rather than throw in psionics... especially since we're not yet sure how psionics really work in the Pathfinder RPG.
Volcanic Caves: I have a bit of trouble accepting volcanic caverns under a glacier. Wouldn't the lava cause a lot more melt? And if there's not enough heat and lava to melt ice... why are salamanders there in the first place?
Ziggurat Puzzle: While this is an interesting puzzle... I have to agree with Wolfgang. It feels a little too "video-gamey" to me.
Too Many NPCs: Wolfgang brings up another great point; there's too many NPC barbarians trundling along with the PCs. The adventure's supposed to be about the PCs after all, and the GM has enough on his hands running monsters and other stuff without having to track hit points for a couple dozen barbarian followers.
Radiant Wraiths: It's weird to me to have a wraith (a monster that's especially HATEFUL of light and is hurt by light) be a monster that loves and uses light. This is a case of an unfortunate name tainting what's otherwise a cool monster idea.
Unnecessary Irrisen: Building on the friction between Irrisen and the Realm of the Mammoth Lords is cool... but if the destruction of the Realm of the Mammoth Lords is so important to the Witch Queen, I have a bit of trouble accepting that she'd place the success of this super-complex plan to awaken a giant poison plant to a single 9th level NPC. Having this 9th level NPC operate on her own would have been better.
Plant or Aberration?: The light of the Prismatic Nexus indicates it harms aberrant life. To me, that means it harms Aberrations, not Plants. This might just be a problem with a poor choice of words, but it still confused me.
Creeping Abomination: The creeping abomination's a neat idea (although one that's too epic, I fear, for a module)... but simply having it be a "plant hydra" once the PCs finally confront it is anticlimactic and feels like cheating. This monster's already doing things that no other monster in Golarion can do (melt ice with acid, poison vikings and turn them into sap-blooded slaves, etc.), so it should be a new monster.
Too Many Maps: I like to have maps cover as many of an adventure's combat encounters as possible. This module's combat encounters are spread out all over the place, and I could see the need for a dozen or more maps in this one. That's too many for a 32 page adventure.
Too Much Going On: In the end, though, the thing that is this module's biggest flaw in my eyes is that it's trying to do TOO much. A conservative estimate of the number of actual encounters this module will need is 25, which translates into an estimate of 12,500 words (using my 500 words per encounter guideline). The region under the glacier's a complex place, and I could see it getting a typical Pathfinder support article size discussion to cover all the regions and info about it, which is another 5,000 words. The new monster's another 1,400 words. That leaves only about 1,000 words for everything else (such as introductions, conclusions, Designer Notes, new rules for things like light magic, etc.). Too much going on, alas.
Final Reaction In the end, I can't recommend this proposal. With a fair amount of work, this could be a pretty cool adventure, but it'd need a LOT of revision and restructuring to make it work as the proposal currently stands.
Dinosaurs, cool.
Ancient frozing giant ships, cool.
Journey to the Center of the Earth river ride, cool.
Aztec stuff, cool.
There are a LOT of neat ideas here. So much that I'd be worried about fitting this into a 32-page adventure. If you tried to cram it all into 32 pages, I'd fear you'd have to gloss over a lot of stuff to make it all fit (like trying to fit LOTR into a single 2-hour movie) and the adventure would seem rushed. Or you'd overrwrite, and I'd have to cut out entire sections to make it work. Having just dealt with a 63,000 word manuscript that was supposed to be a 45,000 word manuscript, I can tell you that it is Not Fun to Fix and Can Cause Continuity Problems.
But other than that (major) potential problem, this is a neat adventure idea, I like the gonzo-wahoo of it, unafraid to take the PCs into unfamiliar territory. Very memorable! But perhaps best as a trilogy....
Again, its nice this year that we don’t have to exclude submissions for external reasons like including too much stuff for a 32 page adventure. All the submission in my view are “doable.” Sure, some could use some trimming (and this one is primarily the one). But this year it is all about the quality of the content. I’m going to refer to some stuff from last year just for reference, but the contest here is between these 4 contestants not last year’s contestants. Any reference to last year is for comparison’s sake only. So here we go…
Eric’s Last Ride of the Mammoth Lords
Good title, not great. Is it really their last ride? Is it the Mammoth Lords we are focused on? I don’t know that you found the heart of this adventure. That said, I like the adventure. I’m just not sure you found the right title.
At first I really liked this initial encounter. It’s weird. It hooks the PCs in with this strange plant transformation disease thing and a fun fight. But in the end I think it is just the start of consistency issues. Why and how did these infected barbarians get all the way into town? It seems a bit forced. But I do like the urgency it creates. The additional problem is this—just exactly what incentive do the PCs have to go along? Ok, some barbarians turned into plant things. It’s not like there are more around. It’s not like this is some epidemic. This is the first time it has happened and seems to be the last. Other than the general love PCs have to go to new places and kill more monsters, why do the PCs go with Haendir? The hook here in the end is weak, despite my initial love for plant exploding barbarians (it’s so easy to wow me with stuff that blows up).
I liked the trolls on dinos, but after some reflection it feels forced and like an add on. I agree axe beaks would be much better, but that isn’t the problem really. The problem is that they are just a throw away fun excuse for trolls on dinosaurs. They don’t really make sense. Where are the other infected tribesfolk? How about more of them? That would add to the feeling that this is a real problem that needs solving. (don’t get me wrong, though—dino trolls are still really rad!)
I love – LOVE! – the tests of mettle. The roc diving and mammoth jousting. Now that is cool. I see a serious roleplaying encounter here with some fun combat stuff and skill challenge stuff. Very creative and fun.
But back to the hook again. Why, exactly, do the PCs go to the site of the abomination tentacle? What’s in it for them? I’m not saying every PC is a mercenary and that doing good and killing evil isn’t a hook. But I think there has to be more here.
Now we get to the next act. Mammoth skeletons, gravesites, toxins, ice caverns, frost giant longship. Wow. That is cool stuff. Not sure it all makes sense, but I am digging it. I, personally, didn’t have the “Land of the Lost” problem that James had. I didn’t see it. But I’m not as smart as him either.
For the first time I am starting to worry if this is going to get to be too much for a 32 page adventure. Because now we are in Jungle Land. So we’ve already had the small town map. We got the tribal village map. We got the desecrated grave map. We got the ice ship map and all the ice caves. Now we have the jungle map. Hmmm.
Publishers start thinking all practical like that and we get worried.
The jungle is cool and the temple is fun and has the chance for some cool encounters. But in the end, I just don’t like the stone block puzzle. It just feels to “video game” to me. Maybe that is my issue and the voters will love it. (by the way, that makes yet another map for the temple).
I have to say, though, the final encounter with the weird plant hydra thing is totally cool. However, while I like TPKs as much as the next guy, and my company is known for hard, old-school adventures that can cause death, this one raises even my eyebrows. Izira and a wyvern and minions and then the hydra. Ouch. Not sure you balanced this one right, and believe me it pains me to put that as a criticism. I love hard adventures. I think players these days are pampered with this idea that each of their PCs is somehow a PC of destiny that must reach max level or somehow the game is unfair of the DM cheated. No sir! A good death is a fun part of the game. But that said, yowch this is a nasty one! (Plus, that is one funky rules-breaking hydra with magic powers no other creature has, which makes me wonder if it is the right final enemy for this level range).
I respect the controlled gonzo of this adventure. It isn’t just crazy gonzo. But it is different enough to be fun and interesting. I like that. But I think it tries to do a bit too much. And I am not sure you can stay true to this adventure idea AND provide the necessary content AND comply with the required edits. Just not sure it can happen.
So let’s cut to the chase…
Final Thoughts
I think you submitted a fun adventure. I just don’t think it has enough going for it, which is then compounded by its overly-complex presentation and its practical considerations. Plus, I don’t think it plays to its theme. You tried to do too much. While I like ambition, and applaud your attempt, I think this one falls short.
But let’s take a minute to think about your body of work. Your lens was well-received. Varrush, I thought, really missed the mark big time. But you had some good stuff with it and you got into the next round. And in that next round you really showed that you can listen and improve. Vashkar was a huge improvement. You really turned it around and delivered. And then you gave us the Sanctum of the Collosus. I love that lair. I loved that map, in particular. And in this submission I can imagine a bunch (too many, unfortunately) of great maps for this adventure. Your creativity is stellar.
I just don’t think you have the polish down all the way and I don’t think this submission rises to the level of quality of the two best from this round. I really think you should be very proud of what you accomplished in this competition. It will, in the end, be up to the voters, but…
For the above reasons, I DO NOT RECOMMEND this submission for consideration as a winning entry.
Despite that, I want you to know that I thought you did a great job! Best of luck and lets see how the voters sort it all out!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I haven't read any other comments, and this is the first submission I read cuz I liked the name.
I like it! I think it's neat and combines some classic adventure elements (frozen north, lost verdant city/civilization in a cave or some other place you wouldn't expect) with some unappreciated yet cinematic rule choices (I like the heavy use of mounted combat and navigating the boat down the treacherous icy river/tunnels). Makes me think of parts of the animated Road to El Dorado. I like that you didn't merely suggest that PCs could interact with the barbarians to gain favor but actually listed multiple specific routes to do that.
I like the evil plant, including the way you finally fight it at the end - plant hydra, nice idea. Overall, though, I think the jungle cave lost world has a little too much going on. Too many different monsters and locations. You could probably do it, but it would be a mighty tight squeeze getting all that stuff into 32 pages.
Overall, I'd rate it pretty good, with some reservations. Off to read the others.
Best of luck and congrats on making it this far!
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Director of Brand Strategy
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This seems to be the most ambitious of the proposals and one that looks to be a ton of fun. That said, it doesn't look like something that could be done justice in 32 pages. Not with all the fantastic locations and people that deserve to get their due detailing. I love the puzzle/social elements of it, as well as the final plant monster (of which I think there are far too few). But I'd rather see this as an AP wherein all the stages of the journey and all the great details can be fleshed out. I think putting this in a 32 page module would be doing a disservice to your brilliant ideas. Hopefully when Paizo gets to fleshing out this part of the world they will tap you to assist or at least take a few ideas from here as it's a creative goldmine. Great work and best of luck!
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka JoelF847
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Eric, first of all, great job making it to the final four. Yours is the first entry I've read, and while I enjoyed reading it, and think it could be revised into a good adventure, I don't think it's going to get my vote. There’s lots that the judges pointed out that I agreed with, but I wanted to highlight the issues I had the hold this back from being a Superstar winning entry.
1) It seems to have just too much going on. I can see it as a volume in an adventure path, with new monsters, a set piece on the lost land, and a 48 page or so adventure, but you'd have to do some serious cutting to fit in a 32 page module.
2) Some of the events didn't really hold up to logic. I didn't particularly have a problem with the geographical issues, but my first thought after reading the first encounter with the infected barbarians followed by the description of the toxin is that I couldn't connect the dots from the toxin to the infected barbarian behavior. Which stage of the toxin causes barbarians to wander into town and steal things? The other issue here is where is the rest of the infected victims? The barbarian festival seems to go on just as normal, without a sick barbarian in sight.
3) Been there, done that. While the overall story and specific encounters are inventive, I felt that too much seemed like it came from Paizo products in the past year. First, there's the trials similar to those in the CoTCT AP, then the structure of the plot itself it reminiscent of the Second Darkness AP, with the PCs discovering a threat to the surface and then having to go underground to a lost world to fix that using a bunch of fancy magic runes. Even the frozen longship reminded me of one in the Pathfinder Society scenario #4 - Frozen Fingers of Midnight.
4) Why is the threat even a plant in the first place? If it looks like an aberration, smells like an aberration, and sounds like an aberration, why not just have it be an aberration? You even have the prismatic nexus that harms aberrations affect it.
Okay, enough with the negative. There's lots I really liked here also. Adventures in the frozen north are fun, and I haven't seen one from Paizo since the magazine days. The tests of roc diving and mammoth jousting are very evocative and sound like a lot of fun to play through. The blend of encounters is also very diverse, with arctic stuff, fire based creatures, trolls, giants, barbarians, golems, undead, and aberration/plant end fights. You also have a good mix of combat, puzzles, role play, and miscellaneous encounters.
Based on the success of last year's top 4, and your grasp for the epic story, while I don't expect I'll vote for you this round, I do want to read a volume of a future adventure path with your name on it!
Wow ... this really has the feel of the pulps. I could so see Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser travelling this crazy route :)
But the scenes described don't feel like 32 pages could hope to do it justice. Maybe in 1st edition D&D, but not in today's style of module. I kept feeling as I was reading that this was more an AP ...
I have to agree that the Rajput Ambari felt out of place. I'm guessing you wanted giant undead mammoths, but I would have called them that, and referenced the RA's for stats as being similar. That particular encounter was jarring for me. I wasn't sure about the dinos, haven't read that part of the world as much yet, but that also struck a jarring note.
Still a very good read, but I have to check the others out before deciding my vote. At the moment, unless the others are weaker, I don't see my vote going here. Sorry. Congrats on reaching the top four :)
You have "Creeping Death" that's "Trapped Under Ice" in the "Realm of the Phantom (mammoth) Lord" = MOST METAL ENTRY!!!!!! \m/ @ \m/
Just a brief note: By my calculations, there seems to have been some confusion as to the nature of some of these encounters. I read scenes nine as a wandering encounter area and ten as wandering encounter area topped by a BBEG. If we count wandering monsters as "encounters," well, there's a ton of such encounters stuffed into the average Paizo product.
So, by my count, this submission's got:
Combat: 7 encounters (scenes 1, 3, 5, 7, BBEG at 10, 12b, 13b)
Noncombat/Skill/Diplomacy: 11 encounters (scenes 2, 4 at 4, 2 at 6, 8, 11, 12a, 13a)
Wandering Monster Areas: 4 areas (Lost Jungle, Jökul-Vidja, scene 9, scene 10)
Crucible of Chaos (by Wolfgang, and for 8th level characters) has 24 encounters, two wandering encounter tables, a sidebar of seven mysteries, a passage describing ten creepy events, and SEVEN maps. And this list doesn't include the described areas with no skill or combat challenge, the advice sidebars, the new magic items, the two new monsters, or the several half-page illustrations.
In short, my first impression is that people are overreacting. I'll post figures for other 32 page modules so that people can work with more precise data than gut impressions.
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Kobold Press
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I just re-read Scene 9 and Scene 10. They really don't say "Wandering Monster Areas", they say "multiple encounters". The distinct impression I got was that they are intended as exactly what the judges have said: multiple encounter areas adding up to 13 combat encounters and 24 encounters total, exactly the same as Crucible.
It's good to have the comparison with the Crucible of Chaos, which hits some similar notes to Last Ride. The CoC sidebars and wandering monster tables don't eat a lot of wordcount in that adventure, but they add a lot of flavor and items in the DM toolkit. If Last Ride wins, James might ask for a similar tweak, turning those encounter areas into sidebars or charts.
Ok, I've read all the entries. I have to say, this one is the one I came back to. The images in this entry were vivid and detailed (mounted combat! large ice ship! sluggish barbarians! icy tundra surrounding a lush greenery!). The title grabbed me - this is certainly the one I'd grab off the shelf to look at first. I could imagine players keeping this adventure in their heads as one of the more exciting and entertaining of all 4 -- it captured a lot of elements including puzzle solving, roleplaying, and some really interesting encounters that didn't just rely on battle cooperation capabilities to beat.
Ultimately, the writing and creativity is what won me over. Eric -- I've enjoyed reading your entries and your style and descriptions are the best on these boards. I hope to be reading a lot more of your adventures/modules in the years to come.
While I agree that this entry certainly has its flaws, it's by far the most imaginative and awe-inspiring. This was the only entry this round which really wowed me. It's given me tons of ideas, and definitely gets my vote this round! Great work!
I really really like this one.
Yes, way too much is going on- but it had really cool sh** in it, REALLY cool- and I think if you took all the giant & mammoth mount-type stuff, made those the thrust of the module- boom- it would be killer.
Given that ALL the proposals submitted are going to need some pretty extensive revision- it's not a problem to me that much would need to be chopped from this one. The other entries just put me to sleep- which was a shame- 'cause I really really REALLY liked Kevin's last two rounds (though I did also really like Eric's last round, too).
The other proposals don't stick in my head AT ALL. After having read all of them- I honestly couldn't tell you what all goes on in the other 3, they've already gone the way of short-term memory loss, but this one I totally recount, in detail.
Okay- yeah, I too thought the opening hook here was weak ---why not just have an undead mammoth come stampeding into the marketplace?- ((because the giantish burial ground has been desecrated)) - that would get PCs' attention really fast! Frankly, I kind of tuned out the whole plague/plant aberration angle- and just got off on all the gianty goodness.
But- although I have pretty big changes I'd want to see happen in this adventure- at least I can tell you what it's ABOUT. It's fricking exciting, man! Anyone who can pull out that kind of pulp splendor, this late in the day in the history of fantasy RPG- come on- that's noteworthy!
The other proposals- what's going on in 'em, man? Would I want to see them made into next year's Clash of the Kingslayers? Regrettably, no. (Props to Neil for a great title though.) Dragonrest and the Fey Queen just don't strike me as *exciting*. This one has buckets of excitement. It just needs pruning.
Anyhoo...
To Mr. Jacobs: "Jokul" is not an invented word, it's Icelandic for "glacier," and it's really pronounced like that.
Hm. Flaws, certainly, but I like the Lost World scenario. Overall I'm having the same problem I did with Clinton Boomer's final entry last year: I like it, but I'm not convinced that a 32-page book can do justice to the outline.
...After checking out the others, though... while Fellnight Queen is probably the best of the bunch from a technical perspective, and right up there storywise, I like the material here too much to not vote for it. :)
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This is an insanely cool submission.
The parts that I'd quibble about (dinosaurs in a glacier), I've *already* quibbled about as parts of the Pathfinder setting anyway (which has dinosaurs near the Mammoth Lords lands, instead of down near Mwangi), so I simply nod and accept that, in Golarion, the dinosaurs live near the glaciers. (Yeah, they come from the underground, near the glaciers. Potayto, potahto. It's already established and he worked with it. The whole 'jungle in a glacier' concept has a very forbidden world / savage land sort of concept that I'm completely in love with, science be damned. A wizard did it!)
Love the contests to impress the chiefs. Love the crazy boat-ride through the glacier (although, since it's a Frost Giant longship, some mention of the difficulties of crewing it, for medium-sized adventurers, might be mentioned in the full text), particularly the use of the oars to avoid damage to the ship based off of the Ride rules. The sliding ziggurats is just crazy enough to be cool, and sounds kind of like something you'd see in an Indiana Jones or National Treasure movie, when big ridiculously old and yet amazingly functional contraptions slide and move and fall into place.
The other submissions had their own magic, but, for me, this one takes the prize. Realm of the Fellnight Queen hit all the right notes for me as well, but this one just hit them harder. And the author only lives 30 miles from me. I must game with you someday, Eric!
I just re-read Scene 9 and Scene 10. They really don't say "Wandering Monster Areas", they say "multiple encounters". The distinct impression I got was that they are intended as exactly what the judges have said: multiple encounter areas adding up to 13 combat encounters and 24 encounters total, exactly the same as Crucible.
It's good to have the comparison with the Crucible of Chaos, which hits some similar notes to Last Ride. The CoC sidebars and wandering monster tables don't eat a lot of wordcount in that adventure, but they add a lot of flavor and items in the DM toolkit. If Last Ride wins, James might ask for a similar tweak, turning those encounter areas into sidebars or charts.
Definitely it would be clearer if there were the use of the word "wandering." My reading's definitely an inference: there are two types of encounters, those spelled out and those that just list the monster. The latter screams wandering monster table to me, especially since the first instance of it is: "Dinosaurs, girallons, carnivorous plants, and monstrous vermin wander the jungle. These encounters range from CR7 to CR9 and mainly add flavor and danger to this realm." When I saw that, I said, well, he must mean a wandering monster table.
To Mr. Jacobs: "Jokul" is not an invented word, it's Icelandic for "glacier," and it's really pronounced like that.
I too noted this and thus it didn't even think it would become an issue (and actually was quite happy for the pronounciation which seems to me correct).
But now that it has been mentioned, I see James' concern too, just because it works in one language doesn't mean it works in others, in this case English.I like this adventure a lot. Sure, it needs work but it needs it from editors (ie. not me) and I think once put through the professionals in Paizo it would be the best one of the bunch.
Pulp stuff was fun though maybe even a bit too excessive (there is a danger that when the players know about taking a trip to the glacier they make a sneering guess about finding a lost jungle world in it).
But I liked Fellnight Queen too. I'll think about which one to vote.
The first misstep I see is in Scene 6, where the logic falls apart for me. The viking longboat as a method to get into the glacier makes less sense to me: don't rivers flow away from the base of a glacier? How does this river start above the ice, exactly? If the acid is creating the river, doesn't the acid eat away the boat?
I think a map would make this instantly understood, but here's how I'm reading his submission:
The jungle is at the center of the glacier--its heart--and drains down to its base to the south. The crew climbs to the shelf near the top, and get the ship. They ride down the tunnels created by the heat and acid of the tendrils to the encased jungle at the glacier's core. The plant tendrils grow up, but the nerve center is below the jungle floor, poisoning the waters to flow down from the jungle core of the glacier.
Evidence:
Afterward, the PCs and their allies must leave their mounts behind and ascend the mounds of debris to where the Abomination’s tendrils have erupted from the glacier wall, tumbling in thick strands to the tundra below.
So the strands grow up to the shelf and flop over the edge to the tundra below, like a limp hanging houseplant.
The otherworldly vines burrowing through the ice emit a burning, acidic poison. The vines do not attack, but cutting them sprays this toxin everywhere. The vines melt the glacier as they tunnel, creating wide caverns and sending torrents of water rushing deep into the interior.
The poison is both burning (hot) and acidic. The heat emanating from the poison vines creates the tunnels up while the water rushes down in waterfalls to the core of the glacier where the jungle is.
The oppressive heat of the place vents outward through fissures in the ice. From these great cracks, raging waterfalls re-enter the jungle, draining to the south.
So the jungle is not level, tilting down from the core to the base. And water comes from multiple sources, the tendril passageways and the great cracks, which redirect exterior ice melt inward, only to be vented by the drain to the south... towards the Mammoth Lords' territory.
"It just feels too video-gamey to me..." I seem to recall a defense of the use of the video game trope of plot coupons and ingredient-gathering for both Into the Haunted Forest and Hollow's Last Hope on these very boards. While there's many other concerns, I can't really get behind the puzzle--which is solved by yolking dinosaurs!--as being too videogamy for player tastes.
When I first just read the 4 submissions, this was initially one of my favorites. I'm a sucker for old school wahoo goodness, which this has in spades. I liked it better than Neil's and Kevin's. But then I really dug into them. I was confusing what appealed to me with what was the best submission. This one appealed to me the most. Just thought I'd share that even though I didnt recommend this one, I actually liked it best right out of the chute :)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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When I first just read the 4 submissions, this was initially one of my favorites. I'm a sucker for old school wahoo goodness, which this has in spades. I liked it better than Neil's and Kevin's. But then I really dug into them. I was confusing what appealed to me with what was the best submission. This one appealed to me the most. Just thought I'd share that even though I didnt recommend this one, I actually liked it best right out of the chute :)
It's a good point. I admitted that I was predisposed to like this one (cuz it has mammoths and giants and cold weather) and to NOT like Neil's (fey, bleah, just not my cup of tea, although I think unicorns are fine if you're gonna go the fey route), but that's all just based on things that I happen to like, not what's gonna be good to the general public.
Heck, I hate the music of the Beatles, can't stand their voices, don't like their songs, but I absolutely will agree that they are one of the "great" rock and roll bands of all time even though, to me, their music sucks. Greatness is not dependent on my enjoyment level.
If I had to judge a Battle of the Bands and one group was a Beatles cover band, it would be hard to fight my own bias against their choice of subject matter (and if it was a close toss-up, pretty much even, I'd probably favor somebody else), but I'd need to get over it to give a fair shake as to whether they did well what they set out to do.
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Creative Director
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To Mr. Jacobs: "Jokul" is not an invented word, it's Icelandic for "glacier," and it's really pronounced like that.
Well... the module will be published in english, not Icelandic, and furthermore, there's no "Iceland" in Golarion anyway. We try to generally avoid naming things in the game so that they sound EXACTLY like real-world names. It's mostly a judgement call, as to whether or not one of the editors recognizes the name and feels that, for example, having a wine merchant character named Jacques, is too silly.
In this case, the word "Jokul" triggers the name alarm more if it says "this rhymes with yokel." And the more I think about it, that's less of a concern but the concern that it's building off of an Icelandic word is.
Names are tricky subjects, but fortunately, they're easy to change without impacting the entire adventure. A strange name like this wouldn't be an auto reject for me were this proposal coming in to Dungeon back in the day, for example, but in this case, I decided to turn up my nit-picky powers to near maximum and left no stone unturned.
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This is the adventure I would want to play in the most. I'd love to DM it as well.
Superstar contest aside this is my favourite. Some of the scenes are unforgettable stuff. Its got the makings of a great adventure path. 32 pages isn't going to do your ideas justice.
Well done Eric for getting this far and producing such a good piece of work.
Who wouldn't want to ride that longship? Tickets please.
My initial impression is that (to an extent) like Boomer's entry from last year, this has TOO MUCH FOR A 32 PAGE MODULE. ... This one seems to me to need maybe half a dozen maps, ranging from encounter ones for the opening fight in the marketplace, through to 'mini dungeon' ones such as the ship and salamander lair, to area ones for the jungle under the ice.
Charles, what you do make of Crucible of Chaos? Too much going on in a module or just right? It's one of my absolute favorite of Paizo's and it seems to be pretty much equivalent to this submission in number of maps needed and encounters.
So, basically, my question to a lot of people posting here and the exit thread is why will this submission not work when it did work for Crucible of Chaos?
Yolking dinosaurs? Does that put them back into egg form? I wanna! :)
That's what I get for posting in haste. I mean "yoking." It's hard for shelled embryos to pull portions of cities behind them. It's even harder to harness said shelled embryos!
Too Epic: A 32 page module is no place to present an adventure that features a menace that could destroy an entire region. The Creeping Abomination is a neat idea, but having it be such a huge menace to the entire Mammoth Lord Realm is too much.
As someone whose first experiences with DnD were in first edition, 8th level is on the cusp of becoming name-level. Levels 8-10 was when you were powerful enough to deal with regional crises and kingdom-spanning events. 8th level is exactly the level that I want PCs to be engaged in an adventure of this scope. It just speaks to me. YMMV.
As far as third edition goes, 8th level is the last level you can do regional travel, as next level the PCs go global with scry/teleport and they master death itself with raise dead. There oughtta be a (design) law: if you can raise the dead, you can save the world.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Charles, what you do make of Crucible of Chaos? Too much going on in a module or just right? It's one of my absolute favorite of Paizo's and it seems to be pretty much equivalent to this submission in number of maps needed and encounters.
So, basically, my question to a lot of people posting here and the exit thread is why will this submission not work when it did work for Crucible of Chaos?
While the numbers of encounters and maps match up between this proposal and Crucible of Chaos, you're overlooking one huge element. Crucible was written by Wolfgang Baur, who is arguably one of the most experienced adventure writers currently working in industry. Eric, while having proven that he can come up with great ideas and write well enough to be published, doesn't have that experience. Were this proposal to work in the confines of a 32-page adventure, I think it would need years of experience learning when to cut and when to detail, and as great as the development/editing team at Paizo is, I think that task is more than they have time to oversee. I'm not trying to diss Eric or the proposal, because both are highly praiseworthy, but I would be hesitant to publish this as written or even pared down a little bit as a first-time go at adventure writing.
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Creative Director
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While the numbers of encounters and maps match up between this proposal and Crucible of Chaos, you're overlooking one huge element. Crucible was written by Wolfgang Baur, who is arguably one of the most experienced adventure writers currently working in industry. Eric, while having proven that he can come up with great ideas and write well enough to be published, doesn't have that experience. Were this proposal to work in the confines of a 32-page adventure, I think it would need years of experience learning when to cut and when to detail, and as great as the development/editing team at Paizo is, I think that task is more than they have time to oversee. I'm not trying to diss Eric or the proposal, because both are highly praiseworthy, but I would be hesitant to publish this as written or even pared down a little bit as a first-time go at adventure writing.Charles, what you do make of Crucible of Chaos? Too much going on in a module or just right? It's one of my absolute favorite of Paizo's and it seems to be pretty much equivalent to this submission in number of maps needed and encounters.
So, basically, my question to a lot of people posting here and the exit thread is why will this submission not work when it did work for Crucible of Chaos?
Further... you'll note that in Crucible of Chaos, the adventure's pretty much focused ONLY on the main adventure site (the valley containing the lost city and the lost city itself), and the lost city part takes up 24 pages of the 32 total.
Mammoth Lords takes a much longer portion of its proposal getting to the lost valley, spending a lot of time on the journey to the region. That's why I, personally, feel that this proposal would have a tough time, as written right now, fitting into a 32 page adventure.
All I'm saying is that when you set an adventure in an unusual location (be that location the First World, an underwater tower, an ethereal island, or a jungle inside of a glacier), the mere fact that you have an unusual location is going to eat up a lot of wordcount—the more unusual, the more the wordcount.
I've posted the data in Neil's thread, where James also expressed strong reservations about the scope of what the author is trying to attempt in 32 pages.
To sum up:
"Realm of the Fellnight Queen" has 22 encounters, 2 wandering monster tables, and likely 7-9 maps. (includes map of a dimension as well as a palace and its grounds)
"Last Ride of the Mammoth Lords" has 18 encounters, 4 wandering monster tables, and likely 10 maps.
"Last Ride of the Mammoth Lords" Maps: 10 (scene 1, Mammoth Lord territory map, scene 5, scene 6, Glacier map, Jungle map, Temple of Ancients ziggurats map, Flame Cornerstone, Izira battle map, Jökul-Vidja battle map.)
I can see both being over-large for a 32-page module. I can see both being just right, like Crucible of Chaos. I'm still not really seeing how voters are taking James' criticisms, the number of encounters, maps and new regions and then coming to the conclusion that "OMG! Eric's is WAAAY too big" and "Neil's is JUST RIGHT." They either both have the same weakness or they both don't have it.
Quantity seems like a wash to me. Quality should be the deciding factor in that case.
Here's more stats.
Pact Stone Pyramid (8th level)
Combat: 11
Noncombat/Skill: 16
Maps: 4
Gallery of Evil (8th):
Combat: 16
Noncombat/Skill: 9
Maps: 7
Special: 4 full pages devoted to detailing a district in a city.
Demon Within (11th level, and thus the stat blocks are much longer):
Combat: 30
Noncombat/Skill: 1
Maps: 6
Wandering monster encounter area: 2 (tower with % chance for patrol to arrive, same thing with different monster)
All of these modules have at least a few more encounters than either Neil's or Eric's proposals, with Demon Within having many more encounters. But each have less maps than either proposal. So, what did they use the extra space on? Pact Stone seemed to use the most page count on history and NPC development. Gallery of Evil used HUGE amounts of space detailing a district and its personalities. Demon Within used the extra space to cram in more combats.
Note: sometimes traps were noted as separate encounters, but only when an opponent was not present or obviously were going to be encountered after the opponent was defeated.
I'm still not really seeing how voters are taking James' criticisms, the number of encounters, maps and new regions and then coming to the conclusion that "OMG! Eric's is WAAAY too big" and "Neil's is JUST RIGHT."James' main criticism of Neil's adventure wasn't that the plot wouldn't fit in 32 pages. It was that Neil's adventure plus the full rules for the First World wouldn't fit in 32 pages. And as I pointed out in Neil's thread, I believe the full rules for the First World aren't actually needed since Neil's adventure takes place in a pocket dimension, not the First World itself.
Meanwhile, James' main criticism here seems to be that the adventure itself is too big. You can't solve that issue by side-stepping a bunch of background info. You have to start cutting out parts of the plot.
They have nearly identical numbers of encounters and maps. Each proposal has an additional burden on top of that one, describing the rules of a dimension (and mapping it) and an entire palace vs. having to describe a region and a mostly empty lost city. Those are roughly equivalent tasks.
Basically, Neil hides the number of encounters that he's cramming in there, while Eric provides a readable copy that makes it impossible to hide how big his ambitions are.
Go ahead and vote for Neil if you prefer his proposal on quality grounds. I got no problems with that. They're both extremely fine proposals. I do have a problem with people voting based on too much quantity when it doesn't show up in the numbers and when James says both have ambitions that will have to be pulled back in a 32 page module.
If less is more, go vote for Kevin. He's got 11 encounters total. He'll have all the room in the world to do justice to them.
The reason I'm so vehement about this issue is that I've been something close to a freelancer professionally all my life as a college teacher. I've been on the receiving end of employers making decisions based on reasons that were not grounded in fact or well-thought out opinions. And that's what the voters are this round: employers. Your word gets one of these four people a job and maybe a career if they leverage the opportunity right. You owe it to them to make the right call for the right reasons. Making the right choice for the wrong reasons is bad faith.
Poison turns barbarians into crazed plants! Starts out with RPing with the barbarians and fun barbarian games. There's a bit of a wrinkle in that the hook is basically "go save the barbarians even though the barbarians don't really want to be saved." Either you have some barbarian allies along (annoying for the GM) or you're doing this despite them (annoying for the players). But then you get to fight Amazons! Everyone always wusses out and makes Amazons the good guys nowadays. And a Savage Land kind of setup. I like it. I don't really like big puzzles like the ziggurat, though "Crystal Skull" is fresh enough in people's minds that it shouldn't be a stumper. Jacobs complains a lot about the deviations from canon, but says there is a ziggurat and dino infested savage land in the area - just underground. OK, seems like a minor change to me.
Thirteen scenes seems like a lot depending on how much each one is developed, but not out of scope. Doesn't seem like more than the other submissions. In the end, it's one of my favorites.
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Creative Director
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Jacobs complains a lot about the deviations from canon, but says there is a ziggurat and dino infested savage land in the area - just underground. OK, seems like a minor change to me.
It's not that it deviates from canon as much as it does work that's already done. If the adventure were est in any other nation, it wouldn't have been such an issue for me, but since it IS set in the same region that already has a lost jungle realm cave... it'd be weird to have a second one as well. It'd be like building a second Space Needle in Renton, when there's already one 20 minutes away in Seattle. A space needle in Texas though... that's another story.
In any case, the feedback I've given on these four proposals is pretty much the same level of feedback I give for every module and/or adventure path adventure that I'm working on an author with. The only difference here is that I did my feedback in a public venue.
Jacobs complains a lot about the deviations from canon, but says there is a ziggurat and dino infested savage land in the area - just underground. OK, seems like a minor change to me.It's not that it deviates from canon as much as it does work that's already done. If the adventure were est in any other nation, it wouldn't have been such an issue for me, but since it IS set in the same region that already has a lost jungle realm cave... it'd be weird to have a second one as well. It'd be like building a second Space Needle in Renton, when there's already one 20 minutes away in Seattle. A space needle in Texas though... that's another story.
In any case, the feedback I've given on these four proposals is pretty much the same level of feedback I give for every module and/or adventure path adventure that I'm working on an author with. The only difference here is that I did my feedback in a public venue.
I get that. It's just that when you mentioned that Tolguth place it took me a long time to even find it in the books. I had never heard of it. As a reader, Deep Tolguth's not the Space Needle.
Fellnight Queen, on the other hand, has a simple enough plot structure that you could trim it down quite a bit without changing the overall flow of the adventure. It's not so much a question of the adventure having fewer encounters as it is a question of the adventure having few necessary encounters.
Mammoth Lords would make a better Adventure Path module, but Fellnight Queen would make a better standalone module.
Convince me. Please tell me what encounters you would cut from Fellnight Queen to get it down to a more acceptable size... without a sacrifice in quality. (And I'm somewhat skeptical that a proposal with multiple irrelevant encounters is actually a virtue, but we'll see.) I think I could do the same with Last Ride.
This is my second favorite of the entries.
I don't think it is that it is "too long" for 32 pages per se.
I think that it is more that there is "enough" here for a much longer adventure. This could (should?) be given the space and attention of 64 pages or more so that each area/event could be fully developed, rather than potentially given short shrift.
I would absolutely buy this adventure, and will not be unhappy at all if it should win. But what would bug me if it did win would be that I'd rather have seen it be more than the 32 pages it will be limited to.
The number of events makes me worry that I'd feel like I did when watching Xmen III. Had that been two or more movies, it would have been much better. As it was, it was packed too full of awesome, so the awesome got watered down and abbreviated. I worry about the pacing and the events becoming too cramped.
This is my third adventure read/reviewed so far. Unfortunately, I missed much of the contest prior. Sorry. I have not read judge's comments before writing these piquant yet obscure observations.
featuring a mix of combat, role-playing, skill-use and puzzle-solving.
This is the first adventure of the three where this was incorporated up front. I like the emphasis on all four. I think balanced adventures offer something for all these areas, even if combat is #1!
Cons:
*Right up front, a cool roleplaying moment head butts the mechanics of D&D. Everyone gets a saurian! Cool. Except that this doesn't account for flying. Yes, it's carefully set below the teleport threshold so players probably will be on foot or mounted, but still. That said, the encounter with the trolls? Visually stunning.
*This adventure too seems to have a bit of a hint of rails to it. Must the PCs use the longship? Aren't there other ways to get past this point? Yes, the scenes envisioned for it are cool, very cool, but I don't quite get a sense of options.
Pros:
*The writing is excellent. It draws me in. It shows and doesn't tell me what's going on. I'm intrigued. It also shows a grand, unified vision for the adventure. This can actually be a little problematic for some DMS if it doesn't fit within their campaign, but I think that's ultimately a good problem. A really good adventure still gets used. This has that potential.
*The various Tests are good. I like that inclusion.
*Ice and snow is awesome. I was not expecting to follow this frigid adventure into a Lost World. That was exciting! Then the ziggurats in the Lost World slide and turn into a puzzle to solve? Impressive.
*The whole place teems with potential and awesome, like there's a lot more room to go beyond the adventure.
I like this one a lot, despite what seems like a lot of scripting. I have one more to read. I will see what the fourth and final one is.