I can see it now...
Pathinder - From Paizo Games
Now printed on 100 percent recycled 4E books.
My goodness what an amazingly wonderful idea this is turning into :)
Like a PSA:
Video clip 1 - Quick cuts: Group of gamers grousing over 4e books.
Voice over during clips 1&2: Don't waste perfectly good paper or game time.
Video clip 2: Gamers packing up 4e books (tight shot of Paizo address on package) and handing them to UPS.
Video clip 3: UPS delivery and happy gamers unwrapping Pathfinder. Final logo shot with the tag line in bold white on black.
Tag Line voice over during clip 3: Recycle Your Game.
Or some such :)
Spelljammer was a poor knock-off. Most of the material produced for it is a good example of TSR at its worst.
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How dare you blaspheme against Wooly Rupert, the Tyrannohamstersaurus of Ill Omen.!
Piercing monkey shriek of rage
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Hmmm...I've found that messageboards can be polarizing. I'm not saying we'd see eye-to-eye if we met in person; rather, we probably have much more in common than is apparent from messageboard postings.
Incidentally, welcome back, as it were. Now if I can just convince you that some of your socio-political views are as misguided as your faith in WotC was... ;)
Likely.
As to WoTC...they may still change course, but I doubt it. I fully expect to be sending Erik or Lisa a package in the next week or so...
Why not just return the blasted things? Why do you need to punish yourself? I bought a 4e PHB, decided it wasn't my thing, took it back, and used the money to buy a Dragonlance campaign setting. I'll probably never run a Dragonlance game, but I now have a nice bank of prestige classes, feats, races, spells and monsters I can use with the game I do play. Feel free to blame a more rational course of action on me, but give those gaming dollars to a company that deserves it. Hell, return the books and buy X dollars of Paizo, Malhavoc, Inner Circle, Privateer Press, and/or Green Ronin products. This move was too underhanded and money is too short these days to just screw yourself out of the cost of some 4e doorstops.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Spelljammer was a poor knock-off. Most of the material produced for it is a good example of TSR at its worst.
Oh man, you are just asking for a flamewar that will make the 4e/3e flamewar look like a friendly discussion of your favorite brand of toilet paper. Don't you never say nothing bad about the Spelljammer!
Okay, fine, it was a pretty awful setting in a number of ways, but I never had access to a copy of Space 1889 (is that right), and I loved it in all its wackiness (though I did tend to ignore large chunks of the sillier aspects of canon, such as gnomes, though not so much giff).
The really funny thing about spelljammer is that it is also a rip off of just about every bad sci-fi movie and cartoon of its era. I don't know how often I see an 80s or early 90s B movie and say "holy s+#&, that was in Spelljammer." The bionoid is a total rip-off of the Guyver of all things. There are more rip-offs, but they escape me at the moment.
The worst thing about being a Spelljammer fan is looking at the material with a fresh eye and realizing that the things I liked so much as a teen are really really corny. Painfully corny.
Yeah, Spelljammer was fun in those days when things could be totally nonsensical. Not like now, when I am forced to be serious all the time.
It got into my hand and it went bad, so I lopped it off at the wrist.
Especially when you 're doing business...
Now I'm not trying to antagonize gun afficandos. I'm just saying, you don't put that much trust in people unless you have to.
And especially when the people at WotC serve at Hasbro's whim. The reality is that regardless of how the current leadership at WotC feels about the GSL, 3PP or D&D as a whole, Hasbro can still pull the pulg on any of it. And a company the size of Hasbro wouldn't blink at the idea of destroying their competition for the sake of profit.
I guess if you're mad about how one-sided the GSL is, you must be really irate at those bastards at White Wolf, Hero, Atlas Games, etc., who don't even offer any universal rights to publish under their system.WHAT?!? Those bastards!!!
We should boycot...Oh, wait, I don't buy any of that crap anyway...Oh well. ;)
What is the GSL supposed to do?
From the text, it is obvious it has two purposes:
1. Stop people from making their own games. Within that it has the secondary purpose of making sure that what people make always supports what WotC makes.
2. Stop people from using the OGL. There is no paranoia or conspiracy theory in there, no matter how much anyone might want to suggest otherwise. The GSL has a very specific purpose of shutting down use of the OGL.
Those are both in and of themselves quite reasonable.
I would add an item...
3. Stop people from using the GSL in areas where WotC wants to have free reign.In fear of defending WotC, they may have set almost reasonable objectives and than had someone (dare I say a lawyer) give them this GSL. They may have tasked the legal team to say 'if we come out with a 'Complete Underdark' we want competitive GSP products like a 3PP 'Guide to the Drow' or 'Underdark Guide to Something' to be pulled from the market even if the 3PP got there first'. Although seriously anti-competive, it may be their way of saying stay out of our sandbox. This is not totally bad since we have a lot of 3PP products that cover the same exact topic.
I see two problems with this. One, no one knows how big the sandboax will get so 3PP's might be in fear of publishing anything. I doubt WotC will publish their product schedule well in advance so 3PP's can choose what to create. Two, the legalese is so restictive WotC can abuse the GSL. Sometimes things written by committees can be frightening.
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I must like corny, then. I love Spelljammer. One of my favorite settings, actually.I liked the concept and 'core' of Spelljammer. Unfortunately, due to when it came out, it very quickly suffered from "kitchen-sinkitis" and "tie-to-Realm cancer"... a true product of its time.
A cleaned-up 3.5 hardback (a single one, mind you) would have been a pretty decent seller.
Ditto Planescape, Dark Sun, Birthright, Mystara, Ravenloft....
I guess if you're mad about how one-sided the GSL is, you must be really irate at those bastards at White Wolf, Hero, Atlas Games, etc., who don't even offer any universal rights to publish under their system.WHAT?!? Those bastards!!!
Well, its one thing not to offer something (though plenty of companies do, True20 for example), but its another to offer it then yank it away. Also, since the OGL revitalized the industry and made WoTc $, at least partially on the backs of 3rd party efforts, the failure to continue reciprocating with the advent of 4e is disappointing, to say the least. Lastly given their 50% market share, WoTc decisions make markets. Not being open just made it harder for differing creative visions to share the d&d market place, which I would argue, is to the detriment of consumers.
Well, its one thing not to offer something (though plenty of companies do, True20 for example), but its another to offer it then yank it away. Also, since the OGL revitalized the industry and made WoTc $, at least partially on the backs of 3rd party efforts, the failure to continue reciprocating with the advent of 4e is disappointing, to say the least.
This is why I think the GSL is unfair. It feels like WotC is saying, "Thanks for making the market bigger. We are taking it back now. You will not be reimbursed." Actually, they did not even say thanks.
Lastly given their 50% market share, WoTc decisions make markets. Not being open just made it harder for differing creative visions to share the d&d market place, which I would argue, is to the detriment of consumers.
Actually, if they're down to 50 percent market-share, I can see why they're being so worried and draconian now. It wasn't long ago that they were 90 percent...
I don't want a reference to your statistics or anything, but is that close to the real situation or it it only directionally correct? I know you were quoting Lou but this is how rumors start. By the end of this thread it will be that PfRPG has taken 40% of the market from WotC to bring WotC from 90% to 50% market share.
EDIT: Vance is too fast for me. I had to put a sentence back in.
VIRGIN POST AT PAIZO
09.30 GMT Wellard reads GSL carefully wading through legalese
11.00 Wellard finishes reading GSL
11.05 Wellard downloads Pathfinder Alpha...says it all really
Another virgin poster here, with a remarkably similar timeline:
Download and wade threw GSL: 9:30-10:30a central time
Download Pathfinder Alpha: 10:45a
Welcome Thuryn.
I think you'll find that Paizo has the Awesome.
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Welcome newcomers! It's pretty cool around here. A couple of quick links to get you started if you're interested in the setting behind the awesome iconics you'll see in the Alpha PDF (links to all of their pics at the bottom of this post. The website's simple interface belies how much goodness it holds.
Here's a link to the Pathfinder wiki for the setting (Golarion)
If you want more information, the gazetteer is available in PDF form for about 13 bucks here.
There's a free adventure in the Pathfinder setting available here.
The two "campaign starter" booklets for the Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne adventure paths are here and here, respectively. They have some info on the pantheon, a few new feats, and some new weapons and gear in them. They're both available as free downloads (the links are on the pages I sent you to, about halfway down the description).
The Paizo blog, which has all kinds of cool previews and tidbits in it is here.
Nicholas Logue, the coordinator of the Pathfinder society, Paizo employee, and dark adventure writer extraordinaire has his own game studio called Sinister Adventures.
And, last but not least, meet the iconics:
Amiri (barbarian)
Lem (bard)
Kyra (cleric)
Lini (druid)
Valeros (fighter)
Sajan (monk)
Seelah (paladin)
Harsk (ranger)
Merisiel (rogue)
Seoni (sorcerer)
Ezren (wizard)
and
Seltyiel (multiclass fighter/arcanist)
P.S. Of course there's the boards, but you've already found us. :)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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If you so much as open any OGL compliant book after playing 4.0, the WotC ninjas will jump through your roof and confiscate all of your hobbies, personal belongings, family members, and soul.
That's total rubbish. Here, watch this.
See, I opened a book and
OH MY GOD, SOMEONE CALL THE POLICE
HELP!!!!
OH GOD, THE STABBING, IT MAKES IT HARD TO TYPE!!!
WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE HELP!!!
If you so much as open any OGL compliant book after playing 4.0, the WotC ninjas will jump through your roof and confiscate all of your hobbies, personal belongings, family members, and soul.That's total rubbish. Here, watch this.
See, I opened a book and
OH MY GOD, SOMEONE CALL THE POLICE
HELP!!!!
OH GOD, THE STABBING, IT MAKES IT HARD TO TYPE!!!
WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE HELP!!!
LOL, i love your humor.
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It's not an assertion, it's a fact. The deviations from a standard IP license are a result of having something that is entirely non-negotiated. As is to be expected, such a license is ridiculously one-sided, and is to be accepted only by those with no other option for access to the licensed IP.
OK, it is a fact. I do not know such contracts, and I am not disputing that other IP contracts are generally like that.
I am only disputing that this is in anyway a standard licensing agreement. Even without knowing all IP uses it is obvious the specifics of using a game system like this are significantly different.I would advise not signing such a license with Microsoft. I'd also advise not writing any spreadsheet for them absent a license to do so, or they will sue you. But, if you really want to make a spreadsheet program, and you've got no other way to get a license from Microsoft to do so...well...life's full of tough decisions.
Yes, but even if you do so, Microsoft will not try and say you can never say anything about spreadsheets ever again.
If you want a more direct analogy:The statements that the GSL is "standard" would only hold true if in the WotC license to make the Star Wars RPG, Lucasfilms has options to not merely change the terms and cancel the contract at any time, but WotC is also forever barred from using that game mechanic to make a sci-fi/space game.
Also, the analogy is flawed. You can still go out and publish rpgs for other systems, or for no system at all. It's not a lifelong ban from the gaming industry, much less the publishing industry, if you lose your rights under the GSL, you just can't publish D&D compatible products. Seems to me that people were publishing such products just fine for the 20 or so years of gaming history prior to the introduction of the OGL.
Right, this is only an anti-OGL clause. That was what I was trying to suggest with the spreadsheet concept. See above for a more direct and focused comparison.
Is it a bad license? Yes. In the absence of a license, do you have any rights to use WotC's IP? No. Should you publish under the GSL? Probably not, it's too risky.
End of the day, I find it hard to be so offended by WotC doing what every other non-OGL game company does. I guess if you're mad about how one-sided the GSL is, you must be really irate at those bastards at White Wolf, Hero, Atlas Games, etc., who don't even offer any universal rights to publish under their system.
Heh. I am not a publisher, or even a freelancer that people are eager to hire. I have absolutely no stake in the situation, and do not give a tenth of a flying flipoff at the end of the day.
That does not mean I still do not think it is a bad contract and thus a bad decision by WotC, or that I think the same standard should apply to people telling publishers to suck it up and get down on their knees and worship WotC for allowing them to do free publicity for WotC.|
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Read the thread complete to this post, and just a few comments.
Who has the cake?
After a while, zombies stop smelling bad <Febreeze helps>
I remember well Thundarr on Saturday Mornings, though I'm suprised no one linked to his arch nemesis Bobby the Barbarian. Thundarr got me into my first Gamma World game.
Great artwork Lilith, as usual.
Sebastian, that ain't right, even if they are electronic ponies.
Spelljammer had some good points, under the care of a responsible DM. Under the Dark Fist was a blast to be mauled/mangled in. Woot for Pre-Heathensen Werepoodles/Vodoni
Vic, Lisa, Erik, Jason, and all you other Paizo posters, thanks for keeping up the good work, maybe I'll see you at Origins next week.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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So how about Lisa or Erik? If WOTC doesn't back down, you can have a free set of 4E core books for the asking...all you have to do is confirm receipt. You can feed 'em to your dog or something. Or heck, play with 'em, though I suspect you guys get that stuff for free.
I just got a set.
Give it to a kid, or something. :)
The bad news is that we're out of cake. All that leaves is 'Or Death'. Sorry! :)Cake or Death: Eddie Izzard! What do I win? Huh? HUH? :)At least the offer wasn't, Cake or Death...;)The cake is a lie.
Your vile slandering of the cake is the lie!
...it's the grief counseling that's the real lie.
...didn't expect such a rush! :)
Wow, this thread has really motored. I guess we're all closet lawyers, eh? Something we're more embarrassed to admit than the fact we're all roleplayers! :)
And especially when the people at WotC serve at Hasbro's whim. The reality is that regardless of how the current leadership at WotC feels about the GSL, 3PP or D&D as a whole, Hasbro can still pull the pulg on any of it. And a company the size of Hasbro wouldn't blink at the idea of destroying their competition for the sake of profit.
This reminds me too much on the current state of Pro Wrestling and Mixed Martial Arts here in the United States.
World Wrestling Entertainment pretty much has a monopoly in Pro Wrestling. Yes, there is TNA Wrestling, but they are nowhere close to becoming a threat to WWE. Even so, both WWE and TNA have terrible products. It's more sketches than wrestling, and the wrestling isn't even that great. If you want to watch Pro Wrestling at its best in America, you have to go to indy promotions such as Ring of Honor, Chikara, or Pro Wrestling Guerrilla.
Ultimate Fighting Championship has a very tight grasp on Mixed Martial Arts here in America. MMA's popularity is rising, and the UFC is beginning to see some competition in EliteXC, IFL, Strikeforce, and the newly formed Affliction brand. UFC is still very much on top, why else does Mixed Martial Arts usually get called "Ultimate Fighting" so often in America?
Not to say that the WWE or UFC don't deserve to be where they are, because they do, but having a big company with lots of money and being on top doesn't make you the best. I may watch WWE, but it's not my favorite. I may watch UFC, but it's not my favorite.
Wizards of the Coast with Dungeons & Dragons may be the top dog, but some of the people are finding that better products are coming from other companies. WOTC has gotten my money in the past and probably will get some more in the future, but I choose to give more to other companies that I feel have the better products such as Paizo Publishing, Necromancer Games, and Malhavoc Press.
I have to thank WOTC for giving us the rules to play by, but I have to give more thanks to these other companies for keeping ME interested.
Wow. That guy with the "earth and water" offer was really just a softy.
*chestkick*
Sorry if that's already been done. 15 pages, I'm working on the second.
On-topic, what I really love about D&D is all the cool, wacky, seriously creative stuff that second- and third-party publishers come up with.
If that doesn't happen with 4e, I won't really be interested.
And I can't shake the feeling that releasing their (by most accounts) really cool core ruleset and then unleashing the buzzkill GSL was a calculated move.
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So how about Lisa or Erik? If WOTC doesn't back down, you can have a free set of 4E core books for the asking...all you have to do is confirm receipt. You can feed 'em to your dog or something. Or heck, play with 'em, though I suspect you guys get that stuff for free.I just got a set.
Give it to a kid, or something. :)
Hah, I would rather give them Pathfinder RPG than fill their heads with such dead end rubbish!
Cheers,
Zux
Excellent idea. Teach them early about restrictive copyright: Ok kids, I’m giving you these books to play with, but you don’t own them. An evil wizard owns them, and if you don’t play the right way or you try to talk to anyone about playing, the evil wizard will come take away your money and happiness. Have fun, kids!
Did 1st edition had good 3PP?
I remember Mayfar and their Role Aids ( heck I have most of them and even some boxed sets), those were fairly good. Heh I still use Fez
as a plot device in my greyhawk campaign.
There was also Arduin, Tekumel, Kalamar ( was Kalamar 1st or 2nd edition?).
What else was there?
with a restrictive GSl I do hope to see a day were Role-Aids are reborn.
Not really. That aspect is in the SRD. It's also in Green Ronin's drow book, which is also mostly open content. Proper nouns like Lolth, Eilistraee, Menzoberranzan, Erelhi-Cinlu, and the like are WotC's IP and not open content though. But under the 3rd edition SRD, the concept of drow as evil underground elves is open.I think the name Drow is specifically thiers, in all their underground spider worshiping, while the concept of Dark Elves in general are public domain because of how often they've been used over the years.Nope. Drow predates WotC and TSR by hundreds of years. Now, the specific spider-worshipping dominatrix-queen ... thing.. they've got going on? Yeah, those are WotC now.
I'm pretty sure they are discussing drow under the 4e/GSL, where "evil underground elves" is now off limits. (So much for "allowing greater use of our IP in exchange for a license with greater restrictions".)
Thankfully they were much more open with their content in 3.x. So Pathfinder drow and demonic succubi can live on forever!
I must like corny, then. I love Spelljammer. One of my favorite settings, actually.
This is actually in response to Sebastion, but it was just easier to quote the above to point to my topic (which is off-topic). However, it applies to everyone, love it or hate it.
There were many things I liked about Spelljammer (I may have even 'loved' one or two), but taken whole-cloth it was gawd-awful. First off, it would totally screw-up the economic system of any other setting you tried to merge it with (I know, I toasted my GH campaign that way).
Second, as has been mentioned, it was extremely corny and derivitive... but I liked a lot of that back then. Looking through the lens of time, a lot of us now recognize its numerous flaws.
However, done correctly (for 4e?), it had a lot of possibilites, and I have found alternate rules for Helms and what-not on fansites that I would now use. If WotC tries to turn it around and make it more mature, by making it "Sailing through the Astral to other worlds" a'la Michael Moorcock's multiverse ({i]Sailor on the Seas of Fate[/i]), then it is full of potential.
Of course, we're talking about WotC here, and after reading that GSL, I have very little hope they will get anything right anymore.
<see how I spun this back on-topic at the end there?> :D
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CEO
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So how about Lisa or Erik? If WOTC doesn't back down, you can have a free set of 4E core books for the asking...all you have to do is confirm receipt. You can feed 'em to your dog or something. Or heck, play with 'em, though I suspect you guys get that stuff for free.I just got a set.
Give it to a kid, or something. :)
Erik gets his books free from his WotC friends. I, on the other hand, have to purchase them through paizo.com. I do get a nice discount though. :)
I doubt that I will ever buy a 4e product. Being a rabid collector and having an almost complete set of every D&D product ever produced makes me want to buy it, but the fact that I will never read it or play it makes me not. Stupid rabid collector genes! I guess the almost complete collection stops here. :/
-Lisa
giving 4e to a kid is like putting your old refrigerator on a playground with a sign that says "free candy" in the middle of a Minnesota winter.
I find it rather ironic and humorous that an attempt to reduce competition has instead effectively increased it. I wonder how long it will take them to realize that (and react to it).
That said, I think the current GSL is one of the best things to happen to the RPG industry in a long time.
Why? Because it actually strengthens the system diversity the industry had been seeing in recent years by making it much more appealing to support other systems besides 4E.
And diversity is the key to a healthy RPG industry overall.
Stupid rabid collector genes! I guess the almost complete collection stops here. :/
-Lisa
Does that make you like Hef? Oh, he collects stupid rabbits (aka Bunnies) - my bad!
Many of us have that weakness in one form or another. Mine manifests in music. Part of why I haven't bought more RPGs over the years is that my money went to tracking down obscure albums. Take The Police, for instance. Their albums are fairly easy to find. Sting's work is ubiquitous. But Andy Summer's jazz albums? Stewart Copeland's soundtracks? It's why I never got into CCGs.
I doubt that I will ever buy a 4e product. Being a rabid collector and having an almost complete set of every D&D product ever produced makes me want to buy it, but the fact that I will never read it or play it makes me not. Stupid rabid collector genes! I guess the almost complete collection stops here. :/-Lisa
It is very, very weird for me to not be buying the latest D&D products. I have all of 3.x, almost all of 2E, most of 1E, and about 1/2 of BECMI.
The only things I will probably still buy from WotC are the Dungeon Tiles and minis I can use in my 3.5/Pathfinder game (which I will buy specific singles - not the randomized packs).
Sad in a way...