My husband (VedicCold) and I live in the Indy area and we came up with a business idea. However, we need feedback as to whether said idea is something GAMERS would be interested in.
IDEA:
Take the idea of a Coffee/Soda shop and add the fact that it would be GAMER specific. IE: A mix of different size tables, comfortable seating, both of which could be moved about at will as needed. It would have a counter that sells beverages from water to the most caffeinated Energy drink available and a variety of snacks and perhaps hot foods of the finger variety and various desserts. There would be mood music played, but not so loud as to interfere with conversations and some reading material available of the Gaming nature.
The premise would be that generally this place would be where Gamers and Gaming groups could meet to simply relax and talk, discuss and debate ideas. I realize that this is exactly what the Messageboards provide, but sometimes it's nice to physically "see" and "talk" with a real person. It would be a neutral place where people could meet for the first time to discuss the idea of becoming a gaming group or joining an already established group. Perhaps one or two days a week would be established for actual PLAY. A certain number of groups signing up for that day to guarantee a table and seating (which would be limited, but not so cramped as say a comic book or gaming store). Of course the snack counter would be open for business. This one or two nights a week would take the burden off gamers to "host" a game at their homes all the time.
NOW:
What I need from all of you wonderful, creative readers is feedback as to whether you would actually be interested in such a place (yes or no) and perhaps ideas that could further enhance the proposal.
I thank you all in advance!!
OshunBleu
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Indi - so far away when you're in Germany...
Anyway: THE HELL OF AN IDEA!
I can see people talking about adventure creation, campaign issues, or just having a place where you feel comfortable being a geek - with placing your rpg-books right there in front of you and no need to fear a stupid question from non-geeks!
If it's open, drop me the adress here...maybe...
Donuts in the form of a d20! How cool would that be?! ;)
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I've seen this idea kicked around in theory, but never in practice, which makes me think it has some holes. One of the most prominant I've heard is the competing needs of gamers v. restaraunts. Take a look at Starbucks. It makes most of its money through take out service. The seating is limited, particularly when you consider how many people go there for coffee. Furthermore, the business tends to peak in the morning as people get cofee to start their day. They generate income by selling coffee, the seating is incidental.
Those forces cut against the gamer coffee joint. In the first place, there's a substantial risk that morning coffee drinkers are much more likely to go to a Starbucks than a non-Starbucks, and much more likely to go to a non-gamer coffee shop than a gamer coffee shop. Thus, you're not going to get a lot of those take out customers that are your bread and butter.
Second, coffee shops appeal disproportionately to women. They are marketed as a special treat in the middle of the day. The core gamer audience is male.
A final point is that most game stores already have these functions. A successful game store generally has a game room with tables and snacks in addition to gaming books. The people who are likely to come to such a location to game are likely to just go to a game store where they can also purchase product.
I don't mean to be a downer, it's entirely possible this model could work. I've seen it tried and failed with respect to music/coffee. You might want to read the Behind the Counter columns at rpg.net and post on the forums there. The guy writing the column has a successful game store and might have insight as to the buyering habits of gamers that could be relevant.
You make very valid points that will be very carefully considered, Sebastian. However, I'm going to call you out on one issue: you didn't answer the question at hand. IF such a place were available to you, would you go there?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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You make very valid points that will be very carefully considered, Sebastian. However, I'm going to call you out on one issue: you didn't answer the question at hand. IF such a place were available to you, would you go there?
I think it's unlikely that I would, but I can't say that I'm the target demographic. I tend to have very finite time for gaming. I would see this location as a substitute for going to my FLGS, a place that I go to maybe 2-3 times per year.
If you don't mind me blabbering more, I think the route to go would be to make it a coffee shop first and a gaming location second. Ideally, locate it near a college and serve regular old coffee/snacks during the day. The seating arrangment you describe would also appeal to students working on various projects/studying. Designate particular evenings (a slow period for most coffee shops) as reserved for gamers. Then, have a CCG night, a LARPer night, a tabletop night - something like that. Keep the place open late on nights a few times a week to maximize the attendence by gamers. That being said, make sure the place is inviting to non-gamers but then offer something special to the gamers as well.
This is a fantastic idea. I live in England so I probably wont be your most regular customer but since you asked for feedback I have some questions.
1) How will your core market know you are for gamers?
2) Apart from food what else do you offer that makes me go to you to game rather than stay home? Will I have to pay for parking etc?
3) What will you do about non gamer people who turn up? Obviously your going to serve them but if they dont feel comfortable they aren't comming back. (Maybe thats what you want in which case no need to worry)
4) Will you make all of your profit from foodstuffs or could you also sell items such as Dice, Paper, Pencils etc. Maybe even minatures and adventures.
5) How late will you stay open and on what nights?
6) What profit do you need to make to cover overheads and your wages plus any other staff wages plus oncosts. (you probably worked this out already.
7) What else in your area offers gamers these facilities or similar?
Finally and most importantly
8) How big is the gamer population you are going to serve?
I have a few ideas on how this might look as well, assuming you think all of the above stack up in your favour what about the following,
1) Music? Perhaps varied in normal hours and atmospheric during game sessions?
2) How about a resident DM. Someone experienced who is happy to run games once a week for a core group of players. Maybe SCAP or AOW or maybe Forgotten realms theamed? Then you could have Guest DM's and try to get someone kown locally or, even better, in the industry.
3) You could give some kind of XP award to players who attend to game that they cam trade in for a cup of Coffee etc. Like a loyalty scheme.
4) Grid off the tables so the can double as battlemats for those that need them.
5) Large screen TV to advertise upcomming events (at the cafe), Charge Local gaming stores to advertise on it to bring in revenue. Other times put on screenings of classics like LOTR or Star Wars (might need a licence in the states I don't know). Charge entry for these but do it well. Perhaps all the films back to back with a meal at half time?
6) Put in a wireless network so people can use there laptops to search the net and power points so they can use them for game aids if they want. Printers would be good as well.
I might have more if I think about it but its a start...
Hope it helps, good luck with a really cool idea. If there were enough gamers in England for someone to open one of these I would go.
Elcian
I would like to agree with Vedic that you do bring up very valid points that should and would be considered.
However, I'd like to point out that the shop wouldn't be open in the mornings as "coffee-drinkers" would not be our target clientel. We would be targeting gamers specifically, so the hours would be later afternoon to later evening, longer hours on Saturday/Sunday.
I've seen the Game/Comic stores that offer their spaces for gaming. Those areas are usually small and cramped and can only handle one to two groups at a time. We would be supplying a larger area for more than one group. Also, where we wouldn't be offering the sale of gaming books and supplies, we would be offering a larger variety of beverages and foods to consume while playing or just talking.
We wouldn't be looking for the "take-out" consumer, but for those gamers who wanted to sit somewhere and enjoy a gaming atmosphere without the criticism or eye-balling of non-gamers as was stated in a previous post by Dryder. This shop would be tailored to the comfort and pleasure of gaming, rather than the promotion and retail of gaming.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I've seen the Game/Comic stores that offer their spaces for gaming. Those areas are usually small and cramped and can only handle one to two groups at a time. We would be supplying a larger area for more than one group. Also, where we wouldn't be offering the sale of gaming books and supplies, we would be offering a larger variety of beverages and foods to consume while playing or just talking.We wouldn't be looking for the "take-out" consumer, but for those gamers who wanted to sit somewhere and enjoy a gaming atmosphere without the criticism or eye-balling of non-gamers as was stated in a previous post by Dryder. This shop would be tailored to the comfort and pleasure of gaming, rather than the promotion and retail of gaming.
Unless you have a substantial gaming population, that's not going to work. The model you are describing is more akin to a restaraunt. Restaraunts make their money through the sale of food. The lower the price, the faster the required turn around on the tables. Deny's/IHOP are good examples of places that have fairly quick service because their meals are so cheap and they don't serve alcohol. A restaraunt table turns over once every 45 minutes to an hour. Less for a quicker place. Each time it turns around, you make money on all the people sitting there. Smaller parties turn around faster than larger parties.
Compare this with gaming. The gamers are going to occupy those tables for 3-5 hours. They are going to be purchasing coffee, a higher margin item, but substantially cheaper. Some of them are not going to purchase anything. They come in large groups. Etc. The lower turn around, the cheaper product, the ability to serve fewer customers due to larger groups are all going to make it difficult to make enough money to cover your costs. Square footage is expensive, which is why retail game stores are small and cramped.
Even if you have a sufficient gaming popluation to keep the tables occupied, I don't believe you will generate enough income with the business model described to cover costs.
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We wouldn't be looking for the "take-out" consumer, but for those gamers who wanted to sit somewhere and enjoy a gaming atmosphere without the criticism or eye-balling of non-gamers as was stated in a previous post by Dryder. This shop would be tailored to the comfort and pleasure of gaming, rather than the promotion and retail of gaming.
Exactly what I do with my group from time to time. About twice a years we change a gaming session into a talking-about-rpg-in-general session, where new ideas, campaigns and rules are discussed. We also watch a movie afterwards! Talking about a hobby is as important as participating in it! That's (in my eyes) the reason why these boards here are so strongly frequented! I so hope you're successfull!!!
And it would be helpful to open it in the vicinity of a game store...
HOLY COW!! This is alot!! AND, thank you!! Now to try and answer some of these questions. I apolgize for the long post, but I'm still trying to figure out the codes for answering all fancy like.
<b>1) How will your core market know you are for gamers?</b>
Well, the name of the place for one, but I hesitate to state it here just so we could keep it to ourselves and it won't get stolen. But we would advertise at the Game/Comic stores in the area if they shopowners allowed.
<b>2) Apart from food what else do you offer that makes me go to you to game rather than stay home? Will I have to pay for parking etc?</b>
Hopefully we would find a location that had plenty of free parking. I, like you, don't want to have to pay for parking. I'm hoping the atmosphere of the place would draw you to game away from home and it would only be a place you'd want to game at once in a while, not all the time.
<b>3) What will you do about non gamer people who turn up? Obviously your going to serve them but if they dont feel comfortable they aren't comming back. (Maybe thats what you want in which case no need to worry)</b>
It's exactly as you state it. We'll serve the non-gamer, but if they don't like it then that's okay.
<b>4) Will you make all of your profit from foodstuffs or could you also sell items such as Dice, Paper, Pencils etc. Maybe even minatures and adventures.</b>
What else we might sell other than foodstuffs is still in question. We aren't wanting to cut into the profits of the Game/Comic stores.
<b>5) How late will you stay open and on what nights?</b>
We would be open most nights, maybe from Tues - Sat, taking Sunday night and Monday off for ourselves. Tues thru Thurs open until 11:00pm and on Fri-Sat open until 1:00am.
<b>6) What profit do you need to make to cover overheads and your wages plus any other staff wages plus oncosts. (you probably worked this out already.</b>
These particulars we haven't worked out yet. At this time were just trying to see if there is actually a market for such a place.
<b>7) What else in your area offers gamers these facilities or similar? </b>
There really isn't anything like this in our area. Only the Game/Comic stores.
<b>8) How big is the gamer population you are going to serve?</b>
I think the gaming population here in Indy is pretty big. The Gaming/Comic stores do very well here.
The ideas you presented:
<b>1) Music? Perhaps varied in normal hours and atmospheric during game sessions?</b>
It would be mostly atmospheric.
<b>2) How about a resident DM. Someone experienced who is happy to run games once a week for a core group of players. Maybe SCAP or AOW or maybe Forgotten realms theamed? Then you could have Guest DM's and try to get someone kown locally or, even better, in the industry.</b>
This is a wonderful idea and one that we would keep for special occasions, I think.
<b>3) You could give some kind of XP award to players who attend to game that they can trade in for a cup of Coffee etc. Like a loyalty scheme.</b>
This is a good idea and one worth considering.
<b>4) Grid off the tables so the can double as battlemats for those that need them.</b>
OH!! EXCELLENT IDEA!!! THANK YOU!!
<b>5) Large screen TV to advertise upcomming events (at the cafe), Charge Local gaming stores to advertise on it to bring in revenue. Other times put on screenings of classics like LOTR or Star Wars (might need a licence in the states I don't know). Charge entry... </b>
I think the state has laws about this, but again, well worth looking into.
Unless you have a substantial gaming population, that's not going to work. The model you are describing is more akin to a restaraunt. Restaraunts make their money through the sale of food. The lower the price, the faster the required turn around on the tables. Deny's/IHOP are good examples of places that have fairly quick service because their meals are so cheap and they don't serve alcohol. A restaraunt table turns over once every 45 minutes to an hour. Less for a quicker place. Each time it turns around, you make money on all the people sitting there. Smaller parties turn around faster than larger parties.Compare this with gaming. The gamers are going to occupy those tables for 3-5 hours. They are going to be purchasing coffee, a higher margin item, but substantially cheaper. Some of them are not going to purchase anything. They come in large groups. Etc. The lower turn around, the cheaper product, the ability to serve fewer customers due to larger groups are all going to make it difficult to make enough money to cover your costs. Square footage is expensive, which is why retail game stores are small and cramped.
Even if you have a sufficient gaming popluation to keep the tables occupied, I don't believe you will...
This is definately "food" for thought, a very valid point. Hmmm...we would lose money from the idea that customers would just sit for hours and not buy anything. We really do want to have a place like this though. The question is how to make profit and stay afloat. Thank you Sebastian for pointing this out. I knew it would be a good idea to open this discussion.
MAybe an entry-fee would work. I'd pay it!
Oooh...a cover charge to just come in. Bars and Dance clubs do it all the time.
However, many gamers don't have a lot of money to just throw around on such a luxury. And, this would be a luxury. The question is, would be enough of a WANTED thing for people to spend their money on it.
Gamers typically save their money to spend it on supplies and conventions and food items when they gather at their respective homes to play. Would they want to spend their money to enter a place like this?
All good questions. Thank you very much for the feed back.
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Why not just make it into a mini-gaming store/coffee house? Sell the D&D books, and some of the paper products of other major RPGs, minis, and a small amount of gaming specific stuff (battlemats) instead of magazines like People, Life, etc, but not all the curio crap and other trappings of the stereotypical gaming store. I would like this idea more than just a coffee house that I can sit and game at and it would probably have a better chance of surviving with gamers buying supplies from there.
FH
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Oshun!
You could check localy in Game Stores, if the players there would love to have such a place and that you plan on opening such a cafe. You may also tell them about the coverage-problem and if they would be willing to pay a fee to get in...
You could also "sell" cafe-memberships for an amount of money per month, so the members get a coke for free or have other special things...
Big hello from Paris !
I actually know of a place like the one you have in mind down here. I myself have never entered it, but one of my fellow gamers has been there several times and found it great. They are not specialized in rpg, but here is the deal: for 5 euros (more or less 6 dollars) you can pick one of their 200 games (board games from the whole world for the most part + chess, cards...) and play for the rest of the day. For 3 more euros you can change for another one. Drinks are for 1 euro (coffee, tea...). The place has been running for years. Many students, families with kids and so on. Of course you can join other tables and play with them. It is called L'oya Café (could not find an email). You'll find address as well as other places in Paris there : http://en.parisinfo.com/rub7069.html
Hope you can set up your place !
Try this idea: a real world version of Waterdeep's 'Yawning Portal Inn'. A restaurant with a medieval atmosphere, complete with meals served on trencher style slabs of bread and cow horn style goblets. Gamers who wish a private place to play may descend into 'Undermountain' (upstairs area) via the Yawning Portal elevator.
Why not just make it into a mini-gaming store/coffee house? Sell the D&D books, and some of the paper products of other major RPGs, minis, and a small amount of gaming specific stuff (battlemats) instead of magazines like People, Life, etc, but not all the curio crap and other trappings of the stereotypical gaming store. I would like this idea more than just a coffee house that I can sit and game at and it would probably have a better chance of surviving with gamers buying supplies from there.
FH
Fake Healer is right and I think this is what I was alluding too earlier. Most restuarants can tell you the average spend per seat and the average duration of stay. Retail is all about Sales Density (Sales per Square Foot) Food is all about through flow. The solution to 90% of resturant problems is either move customers faster or increase the seating. As Sebastian rightly points out most places want you to spend, drink and go. If your encouraging people to stay (and I think the concept is fantastic for the market you want to serve) you need a revenue source that does not make you dependant on food. The mark up is good but without through put...
while I think about it you need to take into account shrinkage (stuff thts goes out of date etc) when costing. you never sell everything.
As Fakey (can I call you that?) says, merge a game store and a coffee shop but do it better than either do it at present for that market.
You mention you dont want to steal revenue from the local gaming stores. While I commend the sentiment and I am far from a capitalist, you might want to rethink this unless they are friends of yours. If you do this and it works I gaurantee they will be putting in drinks machines and selling food within the month. Ask yourself this "If these other game stores dont fit my needs why am I protecting them?"
Please dont take this as criticism. I really hope you do this and succeed but if any of this helps it might save you making costly mistakes.
Elcian
PS glad you liked the ideas!
Oshun and I just had a conversation along this line. Rather than making it just a "coffee shop", shift to a model more similar to a Borders or Barnes & Noble - a gaming/book store with a refreshment counter and area for seating with tables etc so that customers can relax, read, and get together to play when they want to. While we really like the original premise, and would love to make it work, this model may be more realistic in terms of economic viability. We certainly want to keep this thread going to see what could be the best solution. It's just a pity that most of you fine folks are so far away.
Something else you may want to try is still having the gaming tables out but also have a couple of private rooms for rent for larger groups. That way everyone in the party can chip in to help pay for it so it's not a lot of money out of any individual pocket. You could put LCD projectors up or white boards and markers. Just my suggestion.
Having been a buyer for a gaming distributor, I know there's lots of promotions and tournament support you can get, as a small gaming store, from Wizards and White Wolf and lots of the big gaming companies. Embrace these, because on pure profit margin it's what will keep you ahead of the Walmarts, the Targets, and the Barnes & Nobles. That, and actually having gaming space.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Something else you may want to try is still having the gaming tables out but also have a couple of private rooms for rent for larger groups. That way everyone in the party can chip in to help pay for it so it's not a lot of money out of any individual pocket. You could put LCD projectors up or white boards and markers. Just my suggestion.
Using google to pull up an estimate of price per square foot in Indianapolis, I got a figure of around $13. That's completely pulled out of my ass, but let's run with it.
Say the room you are renting is 10x10. That's the size of a small bedroom (at least in most CA houses). So, 10x10 is 100 square feet or $1,300 per month. Divide that by 4 weeks to get roughly $325 per week or (assuming a 6 day week) $54 per day. Assuming a 12 hour business day, that means you need to charge $4.5 dollars per hour. The average game session is about 4 hours long, which gives us $18 for a group. Not that bad right?
Well, I suppose, if you can manage to get full usage out of that room 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, 4 weeks a year. Assuming gaming groups play one game per week, that comes out to a population of roughly 18 gaming groups or (assuming 5 gamers per group) 90 gamers.
None of the above includes labor, maintenance, installation of gaming equipment, furniture, electricty, water, or other costs of running a business. It also ignores the fact that most gaming groups are going to want to play on weekends and not in 4 hour shifts 6 days a week.
Running a business is not Pimp my Gaming Room, it's making money through providing goods and services that are demanded by customers.
I hate to be a downer, but if you want a business to succeed, you need to think like a business person. If the route you want to take is renting what amounts to conference room space, shop around at how much such businesses charge.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Oshun and I just had a conversation along this line. Rather than making it just a "coffee shop", shift to a model more similar to a Borders or Barnes & Noble - a gaming/book store with a refreshment counter and area for seating with tables etc so that customers can relax, read, and get together to play when they want to. While we really like the original premise, and would love to make it work, this model may be more realistic in terms of economic viability. We certainly want to keep this thread going to see what could be the best solution. It's just a pity that most of you fine folks are so far away.
I think your best bet is to hook into the CCG crowd. The dirty secret of most gaming stores is that's how they pay for their gaming space. A Magic draft runs around $15-$20 per person, 8 person minimum. Play takes somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-4 hours. That's $48 in revenue per hour ($18 per person times 8 people divided by 3 hours). You can do it in that 10x10 space and you can pick up some extra cash for snacks/drinks.
Hmmm... most gamers are male.
I'd suggest hiring lots of cute girls, and make them dress like hot anime characters. This will appeal to fans of gaming, comics, etc... Kind of like a nerdy version of "Hooters". :-)
hey - don't laugh - I'd eat lunch their every day!
(Oh! - you can serve "dragon wings" instead of chicken wings!)
Something else you may want to try is still having the gaming tables out but also have a couple of private rooms for rent for larger groups. That way everyone in the party can chip in to help pay for it so it's not a lot of money out of any individual pocket. You could put LCD projectors up or white boards and markers. Just my suggestion.Using google to pull up an estimate of price per square foot in Indianapolis, I got a figure of around $13. That's completely pulled out of my ass, but let's run with it.
Say the room you are renting is 10x10. That's the size of a small bedroom (at least in most CA houses). So, 10x10 is 100 square feet or $1,300 per month. Divide that by 4 weeks to get roughly $325 per week or (assuming a 6 day week) $54 per day. Assuming a 12 hour business day, that means you need to charge $4.5 dollars per hour. The average game session is about 4 hours long, which gives us $18 for a group. Not that bad right?
Well, I suppose, if you can manage to get full usage out of that room 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, 4 weeks a year. Assuming gaming groups play one game per week, that comes out to a population of roughly 18 gaming groups or (assuming 5 gamers per group) 90 gamers.
None of the above includes labor, maintenance, installation of gaming equipment, furniture, electricty, water, or other costs of running a business. It also ignores the fact that most gaming groups are going to want to play on weekends and not in 4 hour shifts 6 days a week.
Running a business is not Pimp my Gaming Room, it's making money through providing goods and services that are demanded by customers.
I hate to be a downer, but if you want a business to succeed, you need to think like a business person. If the route you want to take is renting what amounts to conference room space, shop around at how much such businesses charge.
One of the local karaoke places charges $20/hr for up to 6 people and then an extra $5/hr per person over 6. They're open in the evenings from 6pm until 4am. They have a total of 9 rooms (various sizes). Each one has a karaoke machine, 2 tv screens and a table with benches. It's a bring your own food/drink/booze. They've been in business for 3 years and don't seem to be slowing down. (yeah I know Karaoke ain't RPG'ing but it's where I got the idea)
I would also suggest making an outline business plan. You'll need one eventually and with an outline you can then determine what to use and what to throw out.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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One of the local karaoke places charges $20/hr for up to 6 people and then an extra $5/hr per person over 6. They're open in the evenings from 6pm until 4am. They have a total of 9 rooms (various sizes). Each one has a karaoke machine, 2 tv screens and a table with benches. It's a bring your own food/drink/booze. They've been in business for 3 years and don't seem to be slowing down. (yeah I know Karaoke ain't RPG'ing but it's where I got the idea)
Do they serve booze?
Running the numbers I have above, charging $20 per hour would cover the costs mentioned, but then you're looking at $16 per person (assuming 4 hour game for 5 people). That's twice the cost of a movie ticket, half the cost of a gaming book (and gamers whine about how much those cost all the time).
I like the idea in theory, I really do, but I'm not sure there's a viable business.
Do they serve booze?
It'd be a lot cooler if they did. They don't serve anything at all. There's not even a snack bar even though there's a billiards room on the other side. (not a lot of business on that side)
Running the numbers I have above, charging $20 per hour would cover the costs mentioned, but then you're looking at $16 per person (assuming 4 hour game for 5 people). That's twice the cost of a movie ticket, half the cost of a gaming book (and gamers whine about how much those cost all the time).I like the idea in theory, I really do, but I'm not sure there's a viable business.
I was thinking 2 rooms tops b/c of the price per hour. But hey, it was just a thought. :o)
The comment about the CCG crowd is something I've suspected would be the key to a successful gaming store for a long time. I have yet to see a really successful store that doesn't host such events. CCGs seem to have a much broader appeal, drawing a larger demographic to the location. This is absolutely something to consider. The karaoke-bar style, while interesting, threatens to be too expensive to expect gamers to utilize. But as always, we really like the feedback we're getting here. Keep it coming.
As a side note, related to the topic,though. Back in the days of 1990-92--
A friend of mine, an MD, would pull one late night shift at the emergency room once a week and get off work at 1am. He was running a D&D 1e game and his gaming group would meet at a local 24 hr restaurant at 2am and game until 6am. They'd all eat breakfast, drink coffee and tip the waitresses well and made gaming an acceptable, if weird, hobby to the late night restaurant crowd.
After a few months no one even batted an eye when a uniformed cop saddled up to the gaming table(s) (usually a booth and a nearby table with chairs) and rolled a few dice and played a walk-on NPC for about 20 minutes while waiting for his next radio call......the DM was a "doctor" after all....
A little more relevant:
I think you should promote the fact that it is a "neutral gaming site." I think many gamers are inhibited by the fact that they might invite strangers to their home and might kick them out of their games (but now these people know where they live!).
Don't even open up until 4pm....and stay open until whenever!
I figured out the dollars of our gaming nights...and between booze and food we all spend about $60-$100 total between all of us every 2 weeks. If you provided a totally gamer-friendly, neutral place that might appeal to many of us who are hesitant to recruit new gamers only because of the immediate connection those people might have to our homes.
At risk of being labled a complete anal orafice, I'd have to say, "No, I wouldn't go."
1) I have a home with plenty of room. I can hold up to 10 people at my dining room table for gaming, or more out back during good weather, if really necessary. (Thankfully it never has been)
2) The food out of my fridge is a lot cheaper than retail.
3) I get to sit where I want, when I want and don't have to get on some waiting list if all the back-room tables are full up with long term campaigns.
4) At my house, I get to exclude all the people I end up not liking.
For me there are just too many advantages to staying home and not enough advantages to going out.
Plus...
I had an idea like this about 20 years ago and ran into all kinds of difficulties like: Most of the gamers were younger single males with low-paying jobs who couldn't afford the retail costs of the food, etc. Look at most of the negative reasons above and multilply them by about X4 and you get the gist of what happened to my real-world attempt.
It's a good idea, but in practical, real-world use it just doesn't pan out.
Sebastian is pretty well on target. The hobby store business model is not very profitable in general...i don't have specific sources to cite other than tracking the rise and fall of many a-hobby shop here in St. Louis over the past 20+ years AND several seminars that are presented at GenCon every year on running a hobby store business. Whoever above mentioned the CCG nugget is spot on as well. Hosting tourneys on a weekly basis is a fairly solid cash flow generator in the industry because of the nature of the product, the format of the tournaments, and the market..."gotta have em' all" product, buy all the cards for each tourney, pushed primarily to pre-teens and teens.
Consider the coffee shop angle now. Exactly what gamer demographic is represented by the coffee sipping, eco-conscious, trendy, middle upper class population? I'd hazard a guess at not a high percentage. You practically remove the pre-teen and young teen demographic...both of which are more than happy to go down the street to the gaming store with all the trappings of the traditional gaming store without the ambiance of a coffee shop.
Which brings me to another point...consider your competitors. Why will i go to your coffee shop to shoot it about gaming over the local comic book store or fantasy shop? I guess i don't even really understand what need is being filled here that isn't already being met or not sufficiently met...coffee and a slice of pound cake while i game? I suppose one answer is you could be providing a niche for the veteran gamer over the rookie kids and CCG folks. Again, it's not the best market...
I dunno, if the goal is to provide a community gaming ground and the business is secondary, that's all good...but if you're expecting a significant positive cash flow buisness i think it's not the right fit.
As ever,
ACE
Something you'll also want to consider is location. The game store I used to go to folded because it was: downtown (and the city was in a "don't walk downtown unless you've got a platinum card" kinda remodeling mood), didn't keep up with the latest trends in gaming, and lost touch with their customers.
They managed to get by with their location: across the street from a Starbucks, two blocks down from a record store, three from the remodeled vaudeville Theater, two up from the New Age/head shop store. A vast majority of their summer business was walk-ins, as they did a lot of board games and similar family activities.
However, being downtown, the rental rates were SICK. When the business when for sale (on the quiet), I sat down with my accountant friend and figured out what the cost of business would be (rental, utilities, labor). Four thousand - that's not including ordering new inventory or even expenses for special events. At that point, you're already operating at a loss - you've got mounds of Games Workshop crap that doesn't move and eats up floor space.
As much as I loved the store, it just wasn't viable as a business at its location. The best thing to have done was to have bought the inventory and start my own business (which I neither have the time or money to do).
Try not to let your enthusiasm for the idea (because I would be too!!) blind you to the realities of trying to run a business.
For operating hours, try an opening time of 11am. I like to run down to the game store on my lunch break and browse - it's a pain trying to get downtown at rush hour.
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As a side note, related to the topic,though. Back in the days of 1990-92--
A friend of mine, an MD, would pull one late night shift at the emergency room once a week and get off work at 1am. He was running a D&D 1e game and his gaming group would meet at a local 24 hr restaurant at 2am and game until 6am. They'd all eat breakfast, drink coffee and tip the waitresses well and made gaming an acceptable, if weird, hobby to the late night restaurant crowd.
After a few months no one even batted an eye when a uniformed cop saddled up to the gaming table(s) (usually a booth and a nearby table with chairs) and rolled a few dice and played a walk-on NPC for about 20 minutes while waiting for his next radio call......the DM was a "doctor" after all....
There is something indescribably cool about that story...
I think the general concensus seems to be, really cool idea, difficult to make it work as a business. Now while I, and most others, love the idea enough to hope you make it work the issue is revenue stream vs expenses. Now I know this suggestion isn't going to fit your initial idea but see what you think anyway,
Do you have a place locally that is already open which you could use in the evenings when they are closed. I'm thinking existing coffee shops, bookstores with seats that kind of thing. You probably need an independant as any chain is going to worry about insurance and stock loss issues. The idea is that they are already paying the fixed costs and surviving so for them its extra revenue (always welcome). For you your only expenses are they running costs and whatever they place charges you. If it works you can set up with existing clientel if it doesnt you lose very little.
Of course the down side is how do you pitch the idea to an existing business without them saying "great idea, why do we need you to do it?". You could probably solve this by pointing out that you are the expert in this field and you understand the customers.
What do you think?
Elcian
The challenges have been pretty well outlined by others - basically:
A: you need to have a revenue stream
B: gamers tend to not want to spend money
C: older "grown up" gamers tend to play at home with the comforts at home
I wouldn't pay a cover charge to play in a venue less comfortable so you need to find something really compelling to offer. In NYC there is a gaming store that comes close to wht you are describing called Neutral Ground:
http://www.neutralground.com/
I never played there but I went by to check it out once. They've been around a long time and NY has pretty high operating costs. As they are so far away they might share their business model/experience with you - there website makes a lot of it clear.
For myself as an old fogey gamer - the venue I would like is a fantasy science fiction specialty bookstore with big tables comfortable chairs and a decent selection of snacks and soft drinks.
Good luck if you choose to go forward.
I've to considered doing something like this. It wouldn't work here in San Diego but maybe back in Columbus where I used to live. A couple of ideas I had along those lines, making sure it's close to a college, maybe renting out the location on nights that you aren't open as late, to Larp groups, and the RPGA clubs in the area, and maybe teaming up with one of the local gaming stores, having them move into a big location and them running the retail side of it and you guys running the game space. With the "stores" being connected but being able shut off maybe the store stays open until 9, but the gaming space stays open until 11 that way you can share over head and maybe staff?
*BUMP*
Really liked this idea but I think it got lost in the whole cancellation of Dungeon and Dragon.
Any news on how/ if it went any further?
Elcian
I currently reside in Indy, and imagine one way or another I would know about this site.
Let me say here, I love the spirit of the idea . . . but, and I hate to be a downer, I don't think it would work (that is a really niche market, I know FLGS are too, but gamers need gaming material, they don't necessarily need a place or food/drink they can get elsewhere . . .there are other reasons too, . . . I digress. I love the spirit behind this place, and yes I would go, but that is just me.)
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I would add the following thoughts, though I know this is very late.
As a secondary gaming store, run very light. Have a few things on hand that are pretty commonly needed, but don't stock up all the new stuff, let people order it.
There needs to be a service provided. If you are charging me 5$ to come in, what am I getting besides a chair.
A good model to consider would be pool halls. You pay an hourly rate for a table, doesn't matter who plays.
I recommend running a "library" function. Have a few things on hand that people can borrow to look things up in, and charge for the service. Collect substantial collateral to let anything out of sight. Driver's License, or student ID at a minimum, preferably a credit card.
Have more than RPGs available. Classic board games, card games, and the like.
Computers. You probably don't have enough to start a LAN facility, but having a few low end computers around, and a wireless hot spot wouldnever hurt. People can look things up, play some games, etc. Charge for printing.
Speaking of which, have a copier/scanner available for a charge.
In regards to everyone's comments about CCGs. That is a double edged sword that needs to be handled carefully. My FLGS use to have open gaming on Saturdays, so my group would play 40k there a lot. They started running yu gi oh tourneys in the same time slot, and now we hate going there. I am not sure if they have recovered the losses of us going back to mail ordering our stuff. (6 players, each with a 200$+ budget for warhammer per month)
Layout wise: get someone to do some acoustical design. Wallpaper the walls with egg carton foam, hang tiles, etc, so that the place is relatively quiet. If you have 5 or 6 tables playing games at the same time, nobody wants to hear what bob three tables over ate for dinner
As for would I come, deffinetly once, but it would have to be good to get me out more.
I currently reside in Indy, and imagine one way or another I would know about this site.
Let me say here, I love the spirit of the idea . . . but, and I hate to be a downer, I don't think it would work (that is a really niche market, I know FLGS are too, but gamers need gaming material, they don't necessarily need a place or food/drink they can get elsewhere . . .there are other reasons too, . . . I digress. I love the spirit behind this place, and yes I would go, but that is just me.)
Thanks Last Rogue,
I am in the UK so it was an academic interest as I'm unlikely to ever be a regular. As you probably read I agree with the points you mentioned. However, as I noted above there might be a way round them.
I guess really I just liked the idea and wondered if it had happened.
Elcian