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Andrew, your arguments and logic make sense but they are all predicated on this...
unless it gets ruled otherwise, I treat all ability modifier/bonuses as a typed bonus as per that ability.The only justification I can see made for that decision is...
Paizo has already set the precedence that their "lists" in rules text are not exhaustive.
Additionally, the rule in the core rulebook that discusses what bonus types exist, does not list trait. And yet I don't think anyone would disagree that you can't stack trait bonuses.
If you look up the rules on Ability Scores, it defines Ability Modifier as a bonus. It doesn't say its an untyped bonus.
(The last line of this quote was responded to further down the page with a counter argument that seemed valid.)
I wanted to ask about the basis of your decision to treat all ability modifiers/bonuses as typed. Did you find some piece of the rules that led you to that conclusion, or was it a case of being on the spot as a GM and deciding that Wis should not stack with Wis and not finding anything that disagreed with that ruling?
(Please don't take the above question in a negative light. I am not trying to launch a subtle attack or impune Andrew in any way. As a GM, I've had to make the occassional call based on nothing more than my thoughts that such and such should not be so, and nobody could find a reason why such a such interpretation wouldn't work as a GM ruling, so we'd all just go with that. I'm just wondering if the basis of Andrew's arguments - which again seem very logical and well thought out - are on anything more solid than that on-the-spot GM feeling of 'things should not work this way.')
Personally, I'm watching the trending of this thread quite eagerly. I have a level 1 Sacred Fist that is getting ready to multiclass monk, so I'd really like this combination to work. I also know of 2 others in my area who are playing characters with this multiclass stacking...
This is a fair question:
Here goes...
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.
Determine Bonuses
Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table 1–3 shows the modifier for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren’t die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty. The table also shows bonus spells, which you’ll need to know about if your character is a spellcaster.
Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). The same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one, although most penalties have no type and thus always stack. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).
Different Bonus Types: The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. A bonus that doesn’t have a type stacks with any bonus.
So far, nothing is giving me an exhaustive list of bonus types. As a matter of fact, I could have sworn there was a section in the CRB that indicated a list of bonus types. But I cannot find it currently.
Ultimate magic, Page 131, however, has a chart of bonus types under Designing spells. It includes Alchemical, Armor, Circumstance, Competence, Deflection, Dodge, Enhancement, Inherent, Insight, Luck, Morale, Natural Armor, Profane, Resistance, Sacred, Shield, Size.
LINK Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?
Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.
The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.
For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.
Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild rules;" they're supposed to create monsters which are roughly equivalent in terms of stats, but the quick rules are a short cut that misses some details compared to using the rebuild rules. Likewise, the temporary ability score rule is intended as a short cut to speed up gameplay, not as the most precise way of applying the bonus.
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.
Sets the precedence that any list of bonus types that you might find are not exhaustive. (I swear I saw a list of bonus types, but that may actually be from 3.5--someone help me!) In any case, if there is a list of bonus types, the above precedence should show that it is not exhaustive.
The Advanced Players Guide introduced traits. Many (dare I say most) traits grant some form of bonus that is labeled as a Trait Bonus. Nobody here is going to argue that even if you find a list of bonuses from the core rulebook, that Trait Bonuses stack. They don't. Because they are a like bonus.
Do a search in the PDF of your Core Rulebook. In almost 100% of the iterations of <name your ability> Bonus, it lists it as <ability> Bonus (i.e. Dexterity Bonus, Wisdom Bonus, etc.)
If that isn't typing the bonus, then what is? Why is saying Trait Bonus typing the bonus, but saying Dexterity Bonus not?
Hope all this helps you see my logic.