This looks terrific. Any chance of adding a (probably incomplete) list of any specific philosophies covered to the product description?
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Granted their spells by Dawkins?
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
I hope they don't retcon clerics needing a god for their spells out of the setting.
I hope they don't retcon clerics needing a god for their spells out of the setting.
I wouldn't worry about that. I'm pretty sure James is ardent on clerics needing gods in Golarion. The focus on atheism (which doesn't have the real-world meaning in Golarion, obviously) probably has to do with Rahadoum.
TOTALLy looking forward to this one!
The focus on atheism (which doesn't have the real-world meaning in Golarion, obviously) probably has to do with Rahadoum.I'm hoping there is stuff about the Church of Razmir.
+1
Interesting, not just for deity worshipers but also for philosophisers and non-religous types.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know, I can really see this going the same way as Blood of Night. Razmiran and Rahadoumian atheism need their own book, in my opinion, and honestly many of the faith books don't really have much material for Divine characters, so I'm not very hopeful for this book, (except that I'm wrong). I foresee a lot of rehashed fluff and little crunch to support it. Really need a Complete Divine style book with little setting specifics and more open material for "faithful" characters.
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think a Faiths of the Inner Sea book in the Campaign Setting line would be highly desirable for GMs, containing all the background and history of the different faiths. I'd like to hear more about hierarchy and the different orders of Paladin that exist within the Church of Iomedae, for example.
It's nice to see another Player's Companion book devoted to religion coming out, but I hope there isn't much overlap with Faiths of Purity/Balance.
This one sounds very interesting. Can't wait.
I'm still uncertain on whether or not I like the new format. But as far as the subjects go, the lineup of Player Companions for 2013 is absolutely terrific; this one included. Excited to add several of these to my library.
|
The focus on atheism (which doesn't have the real-world meaning in Golarion, obviously) probably has to do with Rahadoum.I'm hoping there is stuff about the Church of Razmir.
How does that have to do with atheism? out of all the religeons in Golarion, the cult of Razmir is closest to a real world religeon (not quite the same since Razmirian clerics can STILL do actual magic... but still the closest). They had so many real gods, so they made a new one and devoted themselves to him? how is that atheism?
Looks good.
|
|
How does that have to do with atheism? out of all the religeons in Golarion, the cult of Razmir is closest to a real world religeon (not quite the same since Razmirian clerics can STILL do actual magic... but still the closest). They had so many real gods, so they made a new one and devoted themselves to him? how is that atheism?The focus on atheism (which doesn't have the real-world meaning in Golarion, obviously) probably has to do with Rahadoum.I'm hoping there is stuff about the Church of Razmir.
Razmir has no Clerics (in the official setting) and can not grant divine spells. There are Bards, Sorcerers, and a few others that pretend to be Clerics. In that country, Razmir is a mortal man that tricked other into believing he is a god, actively kills followers of other religions, and basically claims that all the deities besides himself are false. It's less atheist and more of an extreme religious communism. Later when the Oracle was presented, it kind of negated a great deal of the point though.
Razmir has no Clerics (in the official setting) and can not grant divine spells. There are Bards, Sorcerers, and a few others that pretend to be Clerics. In that country, Razmir is a mortal man that tricked other into believing he is a god, actively kills followers of other religions, and basically claims that all the deities besides himself are false. It's less atheist and more of an extreme religious communism. Later when the Oracle was presented, it kind of negated a great deal of the point though.How does that have to do with atheism? out of all the religeons in Golarion, the cult of Razmir is closest to a real world religeon (not quite the same since Razmirian clerics can STILL do actual magic... but still the closest). They had so many real gods, so they made a new one and devoted themselves to him? how is that atheism?The focus on atheism (which doesn't have the real-world meaning in Golarion, obviously) probably has to do with Rahadoum.I'm hoping there is stuff about the Church of Razmir.
if you look at all the info so far on the church of razimir, its more of a cult/con-job then anything else. the priests of the faith are con-artists of divine magic and the followers are cultists to his faith. it is as said a false religion, they believe in a (false) divine power not atheism due to the fact that atheism is the belief that there is no divine power.
in this im am hopeing to be able to have a fire monkey bear companyn
o so fun
How is this going to differ from the "Faiths of" series? Essentially, it seems to me that we already have much of this information in other sources, especially the fluff.
I didn't mean to suggest that they toss out the idea that clerics need gods to empower their spells. I was more looking for some sort of loophole or work-around to the idea; an exception that would prove the rule.
This is not what is meant by the phrase "exception that proves the rule." A correct example would be "sarenrae is the only god who is an angel" - by deduction we can tell all the other gods are not angels. Or, more realistically, a sign reading "closed Thursdays" can be taken to prove that it is open all other days of the week. The overuse and abuse of this expression to mean that something is only a rule if it has exceptions is aggravating and a logical fallacy.
I, too, am a little confused about what new content will be in here. More organizations? More info on the philosophies found in the ISG? The hellknight faith in the Godclaw? What sets this apart?
This sounds like a good book for druids, inquistors and oracles too!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As for atheism, I would imagine in a setting that has demonstrable gods it has more to do with the refusal to worship them rather than the real world "there are none" brand of it. That sums it up in my own game anyway. On the other hand people have an absolutely amazing ability to ignore or rationalize evidence and believe what they choose to believe...
How is this going to differ from the "Faiths of" series? Essentially, it seems to me that we already have much of this information in other sources, especially the fluff.
Read the description, it is very different. It isn't so much about the gods and their followers, it is about clerics, philosophers and other religious or non-religious types. It is about devotion.
As for atheism, I would imagine in a setting that has demonstrable gods it has more to do with the refusal to worship them rather than the real world "there are none" brand of it. That sums it up in my own game anyway. On the other hand people have an absolutely amazing ability to ignore or rationalize evidence and believe what they choose to believe...
Right. While some atheists may indeed refuse to believe gods exist, most atheists, as I understand it, simply refuse to accept that gods are entities to worship merely because they are gods. They are powerful creatures indeed but so are devils, demons, angels, genies, and a multitude of creatures connected to the world somehow. These atheists have seen the evidence and come to the conclusion that gods do exist. They've witnessed gods-given miracles. They just don't worship gods or treat gods as an important part of their lives.
That's how I see it anyway.
|
|
How is this going to differ from the "Faiths of" series? Essentially, it seems to me that we already have much of this information in other sources, especially the fluff.Read the description, it is very different. It isn't so much about the gods and their followers, it is about clerics, philosophers and other religious or non-religious types. It is about devotion.
Doubtful. "Whether as a servant of a powerful deity, a devotee of a world-shaping philosophy, or a zealous atheist, claim the power of your convictions with this guide to devotion—religious or otherwise."
The last two do not have Clerics, and it also mentions "characters of every class can finally make their beliefs work for them." It sounds like it will be jus like the Faith's of series, just not divided by alignment. I could be wrong though.
I hope they don't retcon clerics needing a god for their spells out of the setting.
If they do... I'll go on a rampage here at Paizo.
T-Rex on a rampage... didn't they make a movie about that... something "Park" :D
I hope they don't retcon clerics needing a god for their spells out of the setting.If they do... I'll go on a rampage here at Paizo.
Thanks :)
How is this going to differ from the "Faiths of" series? Essentially, it seems to me that we already have much of this information in other sources, especially the fluff.Read the description, it is very different. It isn't so much about the gods and their followers, it is about clerics, philosophers and other religious or non-religious types. It is about devotion.Doubtful. "Whether as a servant of a powerful deity, a devotee of a world-shaping philosophy, or a zealous atheist, claim the power of your convictions with this guide to devotion—religious or otherwise."
The last two do not have Clerics, and it also mentions "characters of every class can finally make their beliefs work for them." It sounds like it will be jus like the Faith's of series, just not divided by alignment. I could be wrong though.
Right, but the Faith series was about the gods and some organizations. Just because it has religious or philosophical options, that doesn't mean it is the same... no more than the Core rulebooks are the same because they have new divine options.
It may have a new smite-like bomb for Alchemists.. or something like that. Which might be neat if it doesn't already exist.
But that is my take.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I hope that while this will focus on players with a belief system in general, I hope it has a few goodies for those following the following beliefs.....
Razimir
The prophecy"s of kalistrade
Atheism
Diabolism
And maybe a few things on worshipping a dead deity such as Aroden.
Also some stuff on being a pantheist or similar paths for characters like oracles.
|
|
I'm honestly hoping that it has a strong Cleric focus (as well as lesser options for other "priests"), but not tied to specific religions or deities, myself. In my opinion, I think Paladins, Oracles, and Druids already have way too many options, and it really needs to be evened out a bit. Atheism (in whatever game form) I'm really not that interested in. Razmir and the Prophecy's I kind of hope stay very vague, as I think they work best as an NPC flavor option, myself.
Diabolism and Pantheism I would really like to see tackled from the Cleric side, not the Oracle (who can already easily do it, just needs a little player imagination). :)
+1 to retconning Clerics away from deities. Its ok for a generic, easy-in, common explanation, but all it really does is take awesome flavor (and moral) options away from players, who shouldn't be common. Let the players make up their own faiths or twists.
|
|
+1 to retconning Clerics away from deities. Its ok for a generic, easy-in, common explanation, but all it really does is take awesome flavor (and moral) options away from players, who shouldn't be common. Let the players make up their own faiths or twists.
Not going to happen, Paizo can't afford a t-rex rampage at the office.
In any case, this is a Golarion book and the setting has a specific pantheon. Banjo the Clown is not an option.
Creative Director
|
| 12 people marked this as a favorite. |
Oracles are the place to go for a full divine caster who doesn't worship the gods.
Not only does moving clerics away from worshiping deities destroy the whole point of their flavor, but it intrudes on the core flavor of another class.
No more an option than removing spellbooks from wizards or sneak attack from rogues or unarmed strikes from monks.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To me the whole "philosophy" idea seemed to fit perfectly with Oracles. The way I see it an oracle doesn't need to worship anyone. For an oracle praying is just a formality. For example, I once played as a Bones oracle in an evil campaign. He didn't really worship anyone. Also if you compared him to a necromancer they would be similar except the necromancer would be concentrating on the scientific aspects of death while a bones oracle would concentrate on the spiritual and philosophical aspects.
A couple of ideas would be expanding The Green Faith. I have heard some arguing that The Green Faith doesn't count as a religion for the purposes of getting spells. Another idea would be something like "The Light" philosophy from World of Warcraft that concentrates on good without glorifying any particular deity.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oracles are the place to go for a full divine caster who doesn't worship the gods.
Not only does moving clerics away from worshiping deities destroy the whole point of their flavor, but it intrudes on the core flavor of another class.
No more an option than removing spellbooks from wizards or sneak attack from rogues or unarmed strikes from monks.
You say this like it is an A or B thing, but not both. I get that it isn't going to happen in Golarion, but still, there are people that do not like that. A better analogy, though would be to remove mage schools from wizards, thief's guilds from rogues, or a eastern-monastic lifestile from monks. One is a machanics-based class feature, while the other is a single type of flavor, that may or may not apply to the whole. Oracles already destroyed a part of the flavor of other classes, so it's not destroying as much as taking it back. :) Also note that i wasn't talking about Clerics without any deities as much as those that take power from a broader source.
This product line is about golarion, though. There are no clerics who take power from a broader source than just one deity.
Pantheistic/deistic clerics pretty clearly belong in the rule book line, if they're to go anywhere.
Is there hope for information on the juju wendo in this?
|
Creative Director
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
You say this like it is an A or B thing, but not both. I get that it isn't going to happen in Golarion, but still, there are people that do not like that. A better analogy, though would be to remove mage schools from wizards, thief's guilds from rogues, or a eastern-monastic lifestile from monks. One is a machanics-based class feature, while the other is a single type of flavor, that may or may not apply to the whole. Oracles already destroyed a part of the flavor of other classes, so it's not destroying as much as taking it back. :) Also note that i wasn't talking about Clerics without any deities as much as those that take power from a broader source.
Keep in mind that the book being discussed is a Golarion book, of course.
I understand that some folks don't want clerics to have to worship deities. For those folks, we built the oracle.
I also understand that some folks don't like that solution. They are free to houserule the rules however they want, but just because some folks don't like the solution we offered isn't a good enough reason to retcon one of the most important classes in the game. Especially since it's not something I think is a good idea for clerics in the first place.
|
|
Keep in mind that the book being discussed is a Golarion book, of course.
I understand that some folks don't want clerics to have to worship deities. For those folks, we built the oracle.
I also understand that some folks don't like that solution. They are free to houserule the rules however they want, but just because some folks don't like the solution we offered isn't a good enough reason to retcon one of the most important classes in the game. Especially since it's not something I think is a good idea for clerics in the first place.
Stick to your guns Mr. Creative Director!
You say this like it is an A or B thing, but not both. I get that it isn't going to happen in Golarion, but still, there are people that do not like that. A better analogy, though would be to remove mage schools from wizards, thief's guilds from rogues, or a eastern-monastic lifestile from monks. One is a machanics-based class feature, while the other is a single type of flavor, that may or may not apply to the whole. Oracles already destroyed a part of the flavor of other classes, so it's not destroying as much as taking it back. :) Also note that i wasn't talking about Clerics without any deities as much as those that take power from a broader source.Oracles are the place to go for a full divine caster who doesn't worship the gods.
Not only does moving clerics away from worshiping deities destroy the whole point of their flavor, but it intrudes on the core flavor of another class.
No more an option than removing spellbooks from wizards or sneak attack from rogues or unarmed strikes from monks.
Well, considering the people who don't like that aspect of Pathfinder are just going to houserule it out anyway, there's no real point in catering to them by making huge adjustments to the current policy.
Also, that's not a better analogy at all. James hit it on the head, mostly. Wizards don't need to go to an academy to cast spells, they get their spells from their spellbook. In Golarion, Clerics get their spells directly from their deity. So in this case, spellbooks and deities are analogous. Admittedly, the analogy does break down a bit more once you look at the Rogue and Monk statements. But the Wizard bit was spot on.