Leadership Council in the Kingdom wants Salary!

My players are all 7th level right now and have finished up the 2nd Adventure (Rivers Run Red). They are: An Oread Cleric of Torag, Vow of Poverty Human Monk, Goblin Ranger, a female Sylph Rogue, a Ratfolk Oracle, and a Female Half-Elf Paladin. (I encouraged them to try out different races!)

The Oread Cleric (the General) wants a salary for all the council members...1,000 gold pieces per month.

Now we are in the 7th year of the kingdom at this point. They have 4 settlements, but only have about 12 hexes under the command (they haven’t gotten to Oleg’s Trading Post yet).

I have read the rules about withdrawing money out, which causes unrest and loyalty loss.
However, they feel like they shouldn’t have to take the unrest or loyalty loss, as this is a job they are doing for everyone in the kingdom. This seem like a serious matter for the group.

I don’t want to give them this much money because it will totally mess up wealth per level of the characters. Also, they would just spend this money on magic items to benefit their character.

Does anyone here on the boards have any suggestions for this situation? Maybe reduce the money per month?

If you have any other questions about the game, go ahead.

Thanks for the input in advance!

I gave them free Cost of Living upgrades.

While they were just a Barony, each PC had an average lifestyle (normally 10gp/month). This increased to Wealthy (100gp/month) when Greenmarch became a Duchy, and Extravagant (1000gp/month) when they became a Kingdom.

While it is reasonable that the Council would be paid, it is equally reasonable that they would have to keep up a lifestyle that reflected their position or power. If they failed to do so (and took the money as cash instead), people would lose confidence in their rulers and in the Kingdom, which obvious could not support it's rulers...generating Unrest :)

It's a good deal all around. They get manors and servants and fancy clothes, but they don't break WBL when it comes to 'adventuring' gear. (This may play better to your group if you make use of their positions/servants/holdings during some of the RP portion of your game).

I banned my players from withdrawing money from BP in any form. If they have a kingdom crisis, I arrange it so they can spend BP to fix it. If they have a personal crisis, not so much. I did grant each council member a salary of 100gp x level per month and did not penalize them or reduce their BP. I thought that was a fair salary that covers any luxury expenditures during years of down time.

If they start pooling their money and cranking out magic items with crafting feats that might upset the WBL power structure, feel free to start assaulting them with situations, foes, or challenges that require spending personal gold or expending disposable magic items to resolve as a counter.

Otherwise, I think it is fair and reasonable to give them a salary. Especially if you have a campaign like mine where they can spend weeks or months on diplomatic missions, building kingdom unity, or patrolling to make sure their borders are secure. Spending a lot of time focused on kingdom related activities vs adventuring activities sort of requires a salary as an offset to what would otherwise be a loss.

I also gave them minions, and so buying things for their minions as upgrades, including clothes and nicer housing are costs that cut into their salary and personal gold.

If you give them a salary, make them spend an appropriate amount suited
to their station in life... e.g. they should have to buy several (not 1)
sets of nobles outfits, they should have to pay for or buy lodgings
suitable to a baron...etc etc

If you do this it should take some sting out of the 'freebie' amount you're
talking about.

If they takes the wage, but refuse to act the part...penalties should apply
during ANY social engagement...

I'm planning of using Daviot's salary (you could find in his post here) when they will begin RRR.

1000 gp/month seems unbalanced to me. An amount like this will be a robbery in the eyes of their subjects, and so it will upset every farmer/commoner in their kingdom (generating Unrest)

I like the idea of having them pay for the necessities that they are using as members of the leadership. I'm now toying with the idea that they should have to buy their own houses somewhere in the kingdom and pay for all the furnishings that would be necessary for them.
That will thicken the settlement and cities even more, which is good.

Yeah, Daviot's idea is solid. Thanks for the link T.A.U! I believe I'll start there...

Six characters earning 1k a month will be 72k a year... even for a kingdom that's not small change, 36 BPs of sale value worth per year. I think Ramarrens idea hold merit, personally I gave my players an extra trait that meant within the kingdom they were able to ignore costs of less than 50g for a Barony, 100g for a Duchy and 150g for a Kingdom. If it cost less than that then they didn't even need to worry, the kingdom effectively picked up the bill, though I did warn them that whilst I was 100% okay with them mass stocking up on potions, scrolls etc that were under the limit, it might eventually cause trouble if they kept it up. Mostly it meant that they could afford lavish decorations for their rooms/houses, the best clothes, never had to pay for food/drink, etc and didn't end up dumping a lot of money on them to unbalance things since the kingdom picked up the tab, it didn't *give* them money.

Yes, I agree Suthainn!

I do believe though the players being able to personalize their home with certain furnishings and workplaces would bring more roleplaying to the game and more realism. Not often do you get to decorate your house with furnishings in Pathfinder.

I just posted on this in another thread, I can't help much as I haven't gotten to these rules yet but I'm thinking something along the lines of the following. Warning wall of text incoming but the basics is work out how much their kingdom would earn in tax, split it amongst the party then tell them to pay upkeep on their lifestyle as nobles of a kingdom and pay the salary of the major leaders for positions they aren't filling, any special personal projects i.e. building a dam on their estate as opposed to city improvements and maybe a few other expenses. These things get quite expensive and you can easily generate a large kingdom tax base and then suck it up with other expenses. Admitedly here I only look at the "average" citizen but even with sages, wizards and other high earners who could generate extra tax it should be manageable. For example your home is opulent and lavish but if you want a tapestry commenorating your defeat of X that's 4 thousand gold to have it made.

Step 1
Say firmly to your players: "You are adventurers and have been working on the adventuring economy now as rulers of your own land you must learn to think in terms of the ordinary mans economy even if in time you will as kings, queens, dukes, his high royal pomposity be earning a lot more than them it will still be on a different economy."

Step 2
Review earning guidelines . . .
It varies a bit for special jobs but your average worker earns 1 sp per day if untrained or 3 sp a day if trained.

That means your average lower end worker (Maids, porters, town criers etc) earns a total of 365 (or local year) silver pieces are year.
Your middle class citizen (teamsters, brewers, scribes anyone who needs training to do their job including higher ranked maids) will earn 1095 sp a year. So we'll work with this . . .

Average income of citizen = 36 gold, 5 silver to 109 gold, 5 silver a year. Now the tricky one how much do they spend?

I don't have my books/notes so I'm just grabbing these from http://hastur.net/wiki/Living_Expenses_%28D%26D_equipment%29 and we'll put them in the yeoman and laborer categories that is trained hirelings need to spend 3gp a week on living supplies while an untrained one needs to spend 1 gp.

Again assuming a near earth 52 weeks in a year our untrained hireling needs to spend 52 gold a year to survive while a trained one needs to spend 156 . . . hmmm we've hit a problem right away haven't we? Average income vs average expense is coming up short. So lets look at lifestyle then . . .

Laborer
Food: Vegetables, cereals, cheese, and eggs. Occasionally meat or fish. Beer. Housing: One good room shared by a family or a decent pallet in the workplace. A chest or two, bench and tables, lamps. Clothing: Shoes, 1 new suit of clothes a year; winter clothes will be warm and protective. Servants: Dependents in the family may act as servants.

actually sounds pretty good for a trained lower class middle ages person.

Begger

Food: Vegetables or a cereal. Little or no meat. Drink is buttermilk or water. Housing: Perhaps none; maybe a tiny room or hut for a family; no furniture. Often housed on the workplace floor. Clothing: Sackcloth, homespun, rude leathers, nudity.

Not very nice but for an untrained person with perhaps food as part of their wages? Okay we'll go with those then. Now our trained hireling i.e. the majority of your citzens needs to pay 52 gold a week to survive (plus more if they have kids/grandparents/others who can't support themselves) and your untrained one needs to spend 15 gold 6 silver a year.

Which leaves your average untrained laborer earning 20 gold and 5 silver every year (36.5-15.6) and a trained one earning a massive 57 gold and 5 silver (109.5-52).

Of course as I said this is just food and basic expenses and this money is going to be eaten into by dependants as you can see each trained hireling can support maybe 1 or 2 (kids, spouse, parents) on their income and then there's clothes, saving for old age etc. Another option is to assume a multi income family if you want to move the living style up in which case a laborer to pay for basics (housing, clothes once a year etc) HAS to have a second source of income (kids, husband and wife working) so together they earn 73 gold and then spend 52 of that to support themselves leaving 21 for emergencies, old age, supporting kids but they can't actually survive with just one person income at their level of living, for these calculations though I'm using the lower lifestyle choice and assuming basically . . .

Commoners
3 sp/week = lower class.
1 gp/week = middle class.
3 gp/week = upper class.

Nobility
10 GP/week = minor nobles (first generation, title for them but doesn't pass to heirs, a second + born child who gets a part of the estate, wealthiest merchants also fit in here as do mid-range magic users and priests etc)
100 GP/Week = Mid-range nobles (several generations in, hereditary title).
1000 GP/week = upper nobles (rulers of large expanses of land, royalty but no the heir)
10,000 GP/week = Top Tier Royalty (Rulers of the kingdom queen/king only).
100,000 GP/Week = Special (Emperors/Emperesses ruling multiple kingdoms, continents)

Naturally if your ruling in that category you either spend the upkeep a week or face political/social pariahdom.
The point being you can tax them up too 57 gold and 5 silver if you want them to live hand to mouth and unable to support anyone else which would probably generate a riot. But we'll work with that this means generate 4,000 gp a year you need to tax to bankruptcy 69.5 workers. Not a bad income but some very angry subjects.

So how much do you tax? Lets say 10% so each of those subjects every year pays you 5 gold, 7 silver and 5 copper. Now to generate that 4,000 GP a year you need to tax 695.65 subjects but its much more sustainable.

However here's where my next catch comes in you want a salary from that? Fine here's you income as king of Estonia you earn 4000 gold a year taxing your subjects and your public works etc are taken care of by BP (we probably need some income reduction to account for upkeep hmm need to think of that). However what about those other positions? You have a general is he a PC? Yes okay split that 4000 two ways as your both getting a share of the income tax. How about the court wizard? Also a PC three ways . . . lets just jump to the end each of the 4 rulers/pc's gets a nice 1000 gold a year.

Where do you live? Inn on market street well okay you get some funny looks but okay that's 40 gold a night and for a years stay at the Royal Cockhead your spending . . . 14 thousand . . . no you can't get it cheaper you need to maintain a certain level of living . . . yes you can raise the taxes if you want people to rebel. Oh you want a house . . . okay to live in your standard required as a Baron of the realm that's 1000 gold a year. Yes I know it equals your income just be grateful your not the king they need to spend 10 thousand gold a year but hey at least this covers everything a palace to live in, large numbers of servents, expensive foods your own personal guard and the like.

However I do believe its time to discuss the head of your foreign relations his salary comes to hmmm call him highly trained since he's not just a regular supervisor he's the head of your diplomatic service . . . well he's a 9th level expert with 8 ranks in profession diplomat say he takes 10 that's 18 over 2 9 gold a day that's 3,285 gold a year the four of you need to come up with to keep him happy and working for you. Now lets figure out the rest of your high staff.

Note: Personally I dislike the gold economy and try to move everything up a notch so copper becomes tin, silver becomes copper, gold becomes silver and platinum becomes gold but that's another matter.

Had a brief look at the rules and found out there is already a taxation phase so I'd say just add the following optional rule.

If used in addition to gaining X income you gain X expenses represeting your lifestyle (mandatory e.g. a king can't live like a beggar without generating unrest although maybe you can live a category or two lower) and payment for your high council e.g. treasurer has a monthly salary of 105 gp (work out a profession value of (their level + stat + 10) * 15 GP = monthly salary. So its a minimum 150 a month and a potential 340 gp a month per role.). These need to be paid out of pocket or from the taxation on the subjects.

Step 4: Collect Taxes
Attempt an Economy check, divide the result by 3 (round down) this represents the number of BP gained in taxation this month. This taxation can be claimed at the ruler/leaderships discretion in the form of BP or gold (at the usual BP to gold exchange rate) taking this taxation in the form of gold doesn't accrue the normal unrest penalties generated when converting BP to gold as its the rulerships share of the current taxes. HOWEVER this only applies to BP generated above the consumption value of the kingdom BP required to meet this value converted to gold gain double the normal penalties associated with this action.

For Example
Joseph has a healthy sized kingdom with 5 consumption and generates 10 BP in taxes, in addition his high council requires 5,000 GP a month in salaries.

This means 5 BP are already assigned to pay for general maintainence and upkeep on the kingdom (maintaining roads, paying guards salaries, keeping the sewer system running smoothly). However he can freely choose to take the remaining 5 as BP or gold so long as he can pay his councilors from the gold converted or out of his own pocket.

Therefore he converts 2 BP to gold giving him 8,000 GP of which he pays his councilors 5,000 leaving 3,000 as his share as king of the taxation. He puts this into his personal funds to help pay for equipment, lifestyle expenses and unexpected expenses such as a flooded farm. 5 BP are used to pay off his kingdoms consumption leaving him with 3 BP that are put into the treasury to help fund public works and pay for special kingdom expenses beyond regular maintenance e.g building a new road or farm.

Once BP has been placed in the Royal Treasury the public will expect it to be used to help improve the kingdom and will be angered if he then chooses to take money away from that to fund his own personal desires (+1 unrest for every BP converted). Similarly if he chooses to convert the BP necessary for general maintenance (Even if the treasury has more than enough in it to cover the shortfall) the public are even more enraged as this is taking money out of their pockets and letting the kingdom suffer to pay for his expenses (Each BP converted which decreases the amount taxed below consumption even if this is necessary to pay the royal courts salaries generates +2 unrest for every BP converted).

Woah! Thats a lot of work! Some good ideas written here...thanks Liam Warner!

Now I like the idea of it being during the taxation phase, thats something I think will be able to fit regularly into our game.

However, our game goes months (Even years) at a time before these adventurers level. If they are getting a couple thousand gold a month to spend on personal use, it will very much add up and will totally offset the wealth by character level chart.

Any suggestions to offset this? I really want my players to feel like they are getting paid for there hard work, but I don't want them playing Scrooge McDuck and sleeping on gold after a couple years haha.

Note: I do like the idea of moving the currency down one level (platinum to gold etc). This economy needs some deflation!

Sigh I'd just finished typing out a half dozen ideas and I lose the entire blasted post. I'll edit this in a bit.

And then its stops me editing I really think the forums want you to come up with your own ideas as so far its been . . .

1) Page went back and forth erasing the post.
2) Page went to the shopping page when I clicked submit erasing the post.
3) Time I was allowed to edit was exceeded erasing the post.

Fortunately after teh first two I copied what I'd written anyway these are off the top of my head so I may have forgotten some in rewritting it a few times so I'll give it a bit more thought. Some are more confrontational than others.

1) Tell the players while they're free buy what they like in non-adventuring gear e.g clothes, rods of mineral and metal detection they can't buy/can only buy X amount e.g. 5-25% over their WBL in items that directly relate to combat effectiveness e.g. a +2 longsword.

2) Increase the costs of NPC's e.g. when the kingdom starts off a high diplomat only asks 45 GP a month (3 (ranks) + 0 (stat) + 0 (kingdom mod) * 15) to work for them. By the time they take the 2nd kingdom and add it to their own he's requiring more money to reflect his growing skill and pride in the kingdom 270 gold 7 (ranks) + 1 (stat) + 10 (kingdom mod) * 15. When they add the third he's a highly skilled diplomat with a range of contacts reprsenting a huge kingdom and corresponding expects 1,514 gold a month 12 (ranks) + 2 (stat) + 100 (Kingdom Mod) * 15.

Similarly if a beloved leader is dismissed/leaves because they're costing too much you can increase the unreset penalty. Instead of X till filled its 3X till filled, then 2X on the turn after, X the turn after that then final gone as the people accept the new marshal is as just and kind as the old one.

You could also tie the amount they can tax to the NPC's. That is they can only claim an amount in gold equal to the amount paid to the NPC's. So if each NPC leader gains X in salary the players can only claim X as their share of the tax.

3) Increase the costs the players need to meet by saying that the cost of living is solely representative of the ongoing costs of their station e.g. wages, food, maintenance etc. If they want anything permanent like a house, crown jewels, land they need to pay the costs out of their remaining share of the taxes. Then use their choices in your descriptions . . .

Player A who's been building up their own little house and lands.
You return home after your latest adventure as you crest the final hill you see your manor home, your banner flying from its highest battlements a moment later a patrol rides up on recognizing you they fall into position as an honor guard escorting you the final distance. The doors open as you approach your butler standing there a welcoming smile on his face greets you "Welcome home my lady I have a hot bath waiting to wash the dust from your travels away and once you're done cook has prepared a meal of venison and vegetables from the latest harvest."

Player B who's been spending their money on adventuring gear.
You enter the city unwelcomed eventually reaching your rat infested tenemant the neighbours argument almost drowning out the snores of the latest squatter. The filthy room indicating he's either a messy person or the place has been looted again. The stench of urine and fece's indicates the former."

You greet the visiting dignitaries make a spot check. Briefly you see a hint of surprise on the lead diplomats face as he see's your crown (40k elaborate gold item studded with diamonds, saphires, rubies and emeralds). As the negotiations go on you realize he's been impressed by your display of power and wealth gain +1 to checks.

This can also help tie them to what they're creating as its not just a bunch of kingdom stats its a kingdom they have their home in, the place they created, the wardrobe filled with sumptious gowns and robes etc.

4) Related to this have their actions affect how you describe their kingdom. For example they've built a herbalist that's generated a potion they want to buy. In a kingdom with a low level of taxation with most of the BP reinvested they get . . .

As you walk about your capital city you see new shops opening and happy, prosperous people stopping to wave and raise their children to see the lords pass by. Turning the corner you see the herbalist its shiny new sign indicating its just been repainted.

If they have high tax and are taking most of it as gold . . .

You walk through the shabby streets around you thin people in ragged clothes scurry about their business trying to avoid your gaze. Turning the corner you realize the shop you were looking for is shut roll 1d4. After 3 hours you manage to find another herbalist carrying the potion you were looking for.

Either way they get their potion and the shops there so no mechanical penalty but descriptive wise it gives a very different view of what they're creating.

5) Remember you can always throw extra expenses at them with longer consequences in a kingmaker game. Your senschel brings a guard before you "Please my lord my wife is very sick and the healer requires 500 gold to heal her we can never afford that will you help?"

If they do
A few years later your senschal brings the guard before you again "I just wanted you to meet my son my lord if it weren't for you he'd have never been born. I'll raise him on tales of your generosity and kindness."

If they don't
You arrive to find parts of the city in flames, a man approaches sword in hand he calls out "Look around at your Glorious kingdom my lords I opened the gates FOR ELLISMAE." he charges. Best if he's only a first or second level warrior easily killed but have the PC responsible make a check to remember the day they turned him away.

For less player based choices i.e a cleric could heal his wife in the previous example a dam is weak on their lands it will cost X to repair.

This can also raise or lower the chance of certain events e.g. a hard worked, small kingdom may have a higher chance of plague as there's not enough high level clerics or healthy enough people to resist it.

There may be a plague of bandits harrying the borders of their land maybe they can gather the other players and try to put them down but there's no central leader and every time they stop the bandits surge up again. To permanently fix this they need guards either by hiring mercenaries (ongoing expense added to their monthly cost of living) or by training/equipping their own troops I'd say a one time cost determined by minimum random starting gold of appropriate class e.g. fighter for soldiers, wizard if you want a caster or casters then multiply by the number of squads you want with each squad being 10 men (If you want more just raise the amount e.g. 1/2, max random starting gold).

For example lets say Tom wants 5 squads of guards. That is 50 (Fighter 5d6 * 10) * 5 = 250 gold. These men start with leather armour, longsword, dagger, bow and arrows after training they just get absorbed into the monthly living expenses but keep his land safe. As I said if you want more you can increase the amount up to maximum random starting gold or 300 (Fighter) * 5 = 1,500 gold to train the troops. Either way he gets 50 men to patrol his land.

If he wants each squad to have a mage as backup its 50 + 20 (Wizard starting gold) * 5 = 350 gold.

You can also use this as an ongoing sink by just having him improve the gear of his men e.g. from leather to chain to plate to masterwork plate to magical plate as the gold he earns makes it possible. Easiest way is just saying you have 50 men in your employ to give them all chainmail you need to pay another 7,500 gold (150 chain * 50 men).

You can also do this with the household equipment instead of working out the price for a specific item (see the crown) you can say to furnish you estate is X. To get good quality furnishings its 2X, to get ornate furnishings its 3X.

5) Remind greedy players that the amount of BP a kingdom generates depends on the size of the kingdom every bit they take now means less available later.

6) Remember this isn't a vacum if the players are taking huge profits and not reinvesting it (leaving it as BP) or using it on their own estates the kingdom may generate more unrest, have hex's trying to leave even when the rules say they shouldn't. Don't let neutral cities spontaneously join and if the players do get a land increase (rescue/cconquer as part of the AP) either don't give it to them or have the new citizens hate their new rulers and generate lots of unrest.

7) Finally take the choice out of the PC's hands. Instead of them being able to decide we take X of our tax in BP you decide. Give them say 1 BP split 4 ways (or however party members you have) in tax each turn. If your using cost of living then ensure the split is enough to meet them + a little more (how much depends on whether you having them pay for their own houses etc). You can increase this as desired e.g. at each point in the kingdom growth where they get an XP reward increase the amount of gold they tax e.g. 2 BP split 4 ways then 3 and so on. Since the amount taxed is a mixture of size (base value split) and kingdom quality (BP earned in tax) it should encourage them to help their kingdom grow.

In our campaign we started giving leadership roles stipends a while ago, taking a rather simple course for a change and setting simple numbers; 500 gp/month for lower court leadership and 1000 gp/month for higher councilors.
The perhaps more interesting aspect for your thoughts on the matter is that we're not drawing these stipends from the realm's BP income, but adding it to the realm's consumption. I find consumption can be used creatively for a lot of house-ruled costs of government.

Cost of living we haven't thus far strictly taken into consideration, but we may we add an abstracted cost for a decent princely court in the future.

Liam, those are some good ideas there. I particularly like 4 and 5a.

As regards your idea 6, do keep in mind that 'leaving' might not be a viable option. Your ruler might be a greedy bastard, but he might not be worse than other bandit lords out there. And despite the heavy taxation the land might at least be relatively secure. For settlers from the Riverlands that would count as a lot and be something they'd probably be willing to pay for. Settlers from Rostland are probably younger sons with no chance of inheriting the farm, and a heavily taxed farm still is your own farm. Of course different settings for the Kingdom building rules would set different situations and reactions, but this is also something to keep in mind when considering that this doesn't take place in a vacuum.

My characters got cost of living paid for them - as did all council members. They are now 14th level and have palaces and properties of their own, furs servants and all sorts of other neat things.

I use a variant of the Leadership Feat (they got it free, but they can only recruit NPC classes :) so they have their own entourages as well.

If they want cash - then they take the unrest hit!

Remember that BP is not cash, it is Logs, Tools, workers, buildings, clothing, bales of straw, furs etc etc . there just isn't that much cash - and there isn't an unlimited choice of Trade goods to take either.

If you want to be a real nuisance, explain to them they can have those four tree trunks that have just be brought in. If they send them to the saw-mill they will be able to build a house of their own. If they can afford to pay the builders ....

Obviously GM interpretation is required I was just supplying potential ideas off the top of my head. I had a book that had a huge amount of useful information on rulership (even a way to tie the king to the land so the two really were linked e.g. invading army is felt by the king and if they were unnatural enough might even give the semblance of illness) but I can't remember the title and I've soo much to look through.

If you allow note-passing, or you're running a PbP Kingmaker, someone could always attempt embezzling from the nation's coffers.

If someone does, the others could catch the culprit and discover the creative book-keeping. Since that would probably end up with inter-party conflict and potential team-killing (or at least team-exiling), that will most likely be a bad idea.

The Treasurer in my campaign did exactly that, he 'fiddled' the books to siphon off a few BP here and there every month into a side fund that he used to increase the defences of the kingdom surreptitiously as he believed the King & rest of the council weren't taking the threat of attack seriously enough. I had him make a few sense motive and forgery rolls when no other players were around (vs DCs I based on their skills) but since he was also in charge of the secret police he really had very little chance to be found out, and it *was* all for the good of the kingdom so I had no problem with it (especially as I *knew* the level of forces they would have attacking them :D).

Obviously GM interpretation is required I was just supplying potential ideas off the top of my head. I had a book that had a huge amount of useful information on rulership (even a way to tie the king to the land so the two really were linked e.g. invading army is felt by the king and if they were unnatural enough might even give the semblance of illness) but I can't remember the title and I've soo much to look through.

Someone else has posted similar thoughts on these boards. Maybe they had

Liam Warner wrote:

Obviously GM interpretation is required I was just supplying potential ideas off the top of my head. I had a book that had a huge amount of useful information on rulership (even a way to tie the king to the land so the two really were linked e.g. invading army is felt by the king and if they were unnatural enough might even give the semblance of illness) but I can't remember the title and I've soo much to look through.

Someone else has posted similar thoughts on these boards. Maybe they had

the same book...?

I'll see if I can dig it up.

Woaaahhhhhhh Liam! So many ideas! Thanks for all the hard work posting different suggestions up!

It has been working very well with just a flat standard pay per month of only at 100 gp and it has been going well (for over a year and a half in game!)

They have to spend their money on their home and it can't be for adventuring materials at all. My players and I are appeased for the agreement!

I have been granting my council members and NPC's 1 build point every 6 months for use however they want. This gives them an opportunity to fund mansions, taverns, shrines or whatever their characters would want. I have one PC who funded a brewery, one a map-maker tradesman shop. these are things they wanted and they don't have to come out of the their gear wealth per level so it works out nicely. I do not penalize the nation...actually gives the nation more build points. I will give them a raise within a year or two game time...haven't figured out when yet.

I have read the rules about withdrawing money out, which causes unrest and loyalty loss.
However, they feel like they shouldn’t have to take the unrest or loyalty loss, as this is a job they are doing for everyone in the kingdom. This seem like a serious matter for the group.

Job or not, people like seeing that the kingdom has lots of money in the treasury, and taking it out means it's not in the treasury.

They should either be able to support themselves on the money they earn adventuring and whatnot (which never goes into the treasury in the first place), or they need to find some way to offset the unrest, or they need simply to suck it up and deal with the fact that they're are acknowledging themselves to be economic parasites.

For my group, I hand waved their living expenses as part of their "salary" and also gave them a small percentage of the taxation roll during kingdom building.

For example, at a normal taxation rate, a roll of 98 build points results in 98 gp for each council member. This being in addition to their normal food/clothing/servants/shelter costs.

I'm in the same boat in that my PCs want a salary. For background, they are from an established barony whose Baron was killed, and they became embroiled in the succession battle, helping the Baron's adopted daughter, who is also their NPC healer, to claim the throne. They've filled half of the leadership positions and want a salary.

The Barony is in rough shape in that a public scandal with the previous Baron raised Unrest, and they are suffering from a massive gnoll incursion that has led to the defeat of a quarter of their militia and loss of a settlement and some hexes with farms. Unrest is high (> 11) and refugees are pouring into the capital from the countryside and selling their belongings for ship passage to safer lands.

Given the bad condition of the Barony, any payments have been deferred until (if) they can save the rule of their Baroness.

What I plan to do, however, is reward them with land, similar to historical feudalism. Two have already been knighted, and they'll receive land on which which to build a manor and that already has several farms. Each Farm (which includes 1 Farm Land, 1 Animal Pen, and 1 Garden) generates 3.6gp per day using the Downtime System, if one Takes 10 on the roll to Earn Income. This comes to 100gp, 8sp per month for each farm. I figure a typical knight might have a manor and a few farms, perhaps 4, so I might give the PCs 6 since they are favored at court. They'll likely have to fund their own manor, house, villa, or whatever they plan to live in, though, since it'll be a newer fief.

I'll admit it does feel wrong pulling Farms out of thin air to grant to the PCs, though those farms presumably were purchased with BP when those hexes were upgraded.

One of the PCs is the Spymaster, and he is in the process of building his own secret police force and also using the Downtime System to build a Pier, Orphanage, and eventually a Black Market, all of which he plans to manage through a Cohort from his eventual leadership feat.

Another is the Royal Enforcer (Sheriff) who is building a Jail and City Watch (using the Bounty Hunter Organization). I'm thinking about letting him keep earnings from the Jail and City Watch (78 gp per month) which could come from fines and merchant/aristocrat donations to pay more attention to them and their wares) but I'm not entirely sure yet.

For the Magister (a Wizard), I think he is content to craft and sell magic items and live out of the castle for free.

So that's where I'm at now. In medieval times, I think advisers to liege lords were typically lesser lords, knights, or clerks. The lords and knights received their income from their holdings, whereas clerks were paid much smaller sums (in comparison to adventurers, knights and minor nobles), perhaps in line with Managers in the Downtime System...about 50-100gp per month.

Where things will deviate from the norm is that my PCs are responsible for the Baroness being in power. She owes them everything. So on top of these ideas, I'll probably have her use BP to buy some magic items, and will also roll up some that were in the castle treasury (perhaps 2 medium and 2 minor), and give an item to each PC as a gift (while probably deducting that amount from their wealth per level for that level to account for it).

In my own case I basically let the characters have a free lifestyle based on the largest available housing.

http://paizo.com/PRD/gamemastering.html (Cost of Living Section)

If the Kingdom has no buildings or only a Tenement dedicated to the character(s) then they are considered Destitute.

If the Kingdom has any form of Inn or Tavern or such then the character is considered Poor. (The Kingdom rents them a room.)

If the Kingdom has a Houses building dedicated to the characters then they have an Average lifestyle.

If the Kingdom has a Mansion then up to two characters and their families can live in it in a Wealthy lifestyle. If more crash then everyone is downgraded to average.

If there is a Noble Villa dedicated to the characters then a single character can live there in an Extravagant lifestyle or up to four may live there and be considered Wealthy.

A simple Castle allows for up to four people to live in it in a Wealthy lifestyle, but is too bare bones for anything fancier.

A Palace allows for up to four characters and their families to live Extravagantly.

One of the PCs is the Spymaster, and he is in the process of building his own secret police force and also using the Downtime System to build a Pier, Orphanage, and eventually a Black Market, all of which he plans to manage through a Cohort from his eventual leadership feat.

Another is the Royal Enforcer (Sheriff) who is building a Jail and City Watch (using the Bounty Hunter Organization).

See I always saw the Marshal as the Sheriff in towns and the Warden as basically the Sheriff of the far territories. I imagined the Royal Enforcer was actually the bloke who ran the Secret Police. x.x

Was it written somewhere, Ultimate Campaign? That an inn/barkeeper earns like 2gp per day? And a higher income job would amount to 3-4gp per day?

Kellias Darkfury wrote:

One of the PCs is the Spymaster, and he is in the process of building his own secret police force and also using the Downtime System to build a Pier, Orphanage, and eventually a Black Market, all of which he plans to manage through a Cohort from his eventual leadership feat.

Another is the Royal Enforcer (Sheriff) who is building a Jail and City Watch (using the Bounty Hunter Organization).

See I always saw the Marshal as the Sheriff in towns and the Warden as basically the Sheriff of the far territories. I imagined the Royal Enforcer was actually the bloke who ran the Secret Police. x.x

I like the flexibility. In our campaign, the (Lord) Marshal, our ranger, handles the outlying territories and borders, pretty much as described by the source material. The Warden is styled as Captain of the Guard (Gesten). Our Enforcer, a Swordlord, is The Lord Sherriff.

I would pay them, but pay them in capital as in the Ultimate Campaign downtime rules. Treat the time they spend ruling the kingdom as also being downtime used to earn capital. This pays them, but also makes them more invested in their kingdom.

Also it makes sense that ruling a kingdom might gain you influence.

If it were me, I wouldn't pay them in actual gold that they could put on their character sheet. I would assume that they are earning a salary though, sure -- it's covering the presumably luxurious lifestyle that they are leading (you could use the Average/Wealthy/etc scale but we mostly just handwaved it). Were I the DM, I wouldn't let them "game" this and try to say that they are living poorly in order to stockpile extra cash; it just lets them break even but still live "the good life".

What turns me away from using the downtime system or anything that makes it more complex than the above is that to me it seems like an awful lot of extra bookkeeping that doesn't add much value to the game. YMMV, though.