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You can get Arcane Strike with the True Strike Spell like ability from the Qinggong Monk.
No huge felines, 9th level Nimble guardian is for Rake, which grants you two extra Claws on a pounce.
Its not the powerhouse a Monk/Druid is, but you get to play one of the most powerful Single Classed Monks out there.
For the Naga Aspirant Druid Archetype, which gets this ability:
Does the Druid's wildshape ability progress past this point (i.e. do they gain huge animal wildshape?)
... 20th level monk damage is 2d10. Its what I based all my calculations on.
Also the monk gets to full attack at the end of a charge, thanks to stuff like pummeling charge or pounce (in Allosaurus form).
Also if I am not mistaken, the value for powerful charge (4d10 in the case of the Tricerotops) is the amount of damage that you deal on a charge, and is not added to the base 2d10 damage.
So yes, I think my monk does a lot better (potentially 5x12d8 attacks versus a single 4d10 attack on a charge) but takes longer to get there.
Ah, you could do a single 12d8 gore on a charge as a Tricerotops with Strong Jaw on, thats not bad.
To Chaosguy, If you are going lion shaman, then you are going to have to be happy with 6d8 at most as there aren't any huge cats. Only Dinos have huge pouncers.
To Derek, Wildshapes lasts for hours per level, Natural spell allows you to cast during wildshape. With 2 Wildshapes at 8th level, for example, you can be in wildshape for 16 hours per day, which is basically all the time.
Well, your best friends here are:
1. The Monk Unarmed Damage Progression (and things that advance it, like a Monk's Robe or Monastic Legacy)
2. Things that increase size (I posit that you can get one "actual" size increase and one "virtual" size increase, as the virtual size increases are all based on your current size and don't seem to stack, another reason I am not in favor of INA).
So around level 10, if you have a Monk's robe and 3 levels of Monk, thats 1d10 unarmed strike damage.
With huge wildshape and Strong Jaw running, thats 6d8 damage. Thats probably good damage for 10th level.
If you can swing Janni Rush, that becomes 12d8 on a charge.
By lvl 20, you hav 12d8 on an unarmed strike and 24d8 on a charge with Janni Rush. Without grappling and constrict, this is probably the upperlimit.
(Or you could have the 56d8 maximized of the conqueror ooze, but that is only for one attack - in that case, the list is Furious Finish and Greater Vital Strike working on a 7d8 base damage natural attack slam).
Derek the Ferret wrote:
Hey, Prototype00, do you have an estimate for when the sample builds are going to be up? I really wanna see some cause this guide is awesome.
Recently switched computers, so slowly transferring stuff over, including the guide and related materials. Sorry about the delay. I'm happy to answer questions in the meantime, but the update might take up till the end of January (as work has picked up).
Gregory Connolly wrote:
Sorry about that, was having way too much fun over my vacation. When things have settled down and I have transferred everything to my new rig, I'll post a next version of the guide with builds.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
It seems prototype00 has reversed himself over the months. It would be interesting to hear about how the author of this...
Well, as I've said, the current face of rules arbritration (Mark Seifter, who presides over faq Friday) has given me his opinion (not an official rules judgement, mind), and I really don't feel like continually swimming against the current on this one. Simple as that.
If I get confirmation from a higher source (like say a faq), I will be more than happy to change it, in the meantime, I would like to keep things simple and straightforward.
Let me get this straight - say you do the underfoot adept/maneuver master build and wildshaped into a huge elemental. If you have the feral combat training feat, can you do your free maneuver master move or two, full attack, and then do the two slams at unarmed strike damage as well (which are...primary attacks so full bab and full str bonus right?) since it isn't a flurry of blows?
Yes, with the caveat that your natural attacks are considered secondary natural attacks, so that is -5 to hit and 1/2 str bonus (or -2 to hit with Multiattack) in a full attack with your unarmed strike.
Covert Operator wrote:
I noticed you set chokehold to red, but there is a hidden beauty to it: the target is silenced. That means no verbal spells!
You could also just pin them. First thing I'd do really.
On the INA issue, feel free to faq it in the thread, but possibly a new thread would be more visible?
Kastar makes my stance (such that it is, I personally feel it wouldn't be awful to let INA work the other way, as Strong Jaw is what really powers the build and works in any instance) quite clear, which is what I also believe most of the rules queries I have made (I recall one to JJ and one to Mark Seifter) have been answered.
I cannot in good conscience recommend something to players on the basis that some DMs who haven't asked the question of Mark Seifter might let it fly. Better to stand on surer ground.
Mickey Carver wrote:
So you chose all the worst options (or at least no good to great ones, Scorpion Style is...unfortunate... to say the least) and you want me to make the character better? I guess, follow the guide from now on? There isn't really anything more I can say to help you.
Did you have anything specific you wanted to do? You might have to make a new character to do so but I can help with that.
As far as I understand it, and I am in no way claiming to have all the answers here:
Fist of the Forest:
Unarmed Strike = X
Natural Attack = X
Not that I agree, but I see the logic, I guess.
If you say one thing, and other forumers say another and the current rules guy in residence agrees with them, there is not really much I can say.
Mark Seifter of the design team had this to say to my question:
Since you're replacing with the unarmed damage, I would think it wouldn't help.
Since I'd rather deal in more sure ways to power, rather than tricks DMs might outlaw, I elected to give it the grade I did. If it does work, great, faq it quick, please.
I was mostly going off this:
At 4th level, he suffers no penalties on attack rolls, can make attacks of opportunity while grappling, and retains his Dexterity bonus to AC when pinning an opponent or when grappled.
Of course you're going to want rapid grapple to fully utilize this.
Good build Kastar, unfortunately I don't think that Brawlers can use their Natural Attacks with Brawler's flurry due to the wording of FCT.
A Goliath Druid can use compsognathus form to scout stealthily. Or pteranodon form to fly. Still lacks a tiny flying form, but it's not completely screwed on either front.
So as to keep the guide as simple as possible, I will opt not to cover 3rd party resources, if that is all right. I had thought the Goliath druid was Pathfinder core, but evidently not.
You probably want a level of Tetori Monk (for Improved Grapple for free), and then 3 levels of Naga Aspirant (so you can go Naga at 6th level with a pick of Shaping Focus at 5th level, delays Natural Spell to 7th level, however, ah well).
After you take your 4 levels of Naga Aspirant, revert to Monk for the next 5 levels to pick up Greater Grapple for free.
As to low level feats, it would be mostly the same combat feats that most monks druids will take (Weapon focus (Improved Unarmed Strike) etc, as you can effectively fight other opponents around you while grappling anyway. I actually don't have any specific advice for this, anyone else want to chime in? Grabbing style will be useful, but a high level pick.
By the by, thanks for the patience with the guide, I am enjoying my holiday so far, but there will be a stretch where I am on the road, so we'll see about putting a bit more in then.
Hey, I don't blame ya, I thought that was a bit of a stretch too, until this faq:
Monk 10 + Monk's Robe = 15 levels (2d6 damage) + Monastic Legacy (3 extra monk levels from 7 levels of Druid) = 2d8 damage
With Strong Jaw and Huge Wildshape, thats 8d8 damage, which isn't bad. You have to be lvl 20 for the 12d8 damage unfortunately.
Also, I would dispute prototype00s last statement. Behemoth Hippopotamus + Rageshaper (bestial aspect) + Improved Natural Attack + Strong Jaw + Cloak of Fangs. And, as an afterthought, Improved Vital Strike and Furious Finish.
Sure, but some differences between this and the druid:
1. The druid an stay in his form for the entire day, Polymorph and Beast Shape last for a minute per level
2. The Druid can cast his spells thanks to Natural spell (so versatility)
3. The druid can also do this trick, behemoth hippo is all right, but the carnivorous crystal is better.
So a 20th level monk does 2d10 unarmed strike damage (works out to 3d8 in damage progression terms). If you have feral combat training, your claws/slams/bite/whatever does that much damage now.
If you are a huge creature, your unarmed strike is also huge, so 6d8 damage.
If you can cast Strong Jaw, thats 2 more size increases, so 12d8 damage (which is incidentally what a 20th level Colossal Monk would be doing).
No weapon (except for the Carnivorous Crystal's slam attack) will do as much damage as that. And that is the source of the Druid/Monk's power.
Tetori, as the bonus feats and abilities are better.
Maneuver Master lets you tack on a maneuver for free onto a full attack, but if that maneuver is to grapple, you either lose the full attack, or you can't straight off pin (because you've used your standard action already during the full attack).
Its good, I personally prefer the max damage Greater Vital Strike damage with Furious Finish. 500ish damage in a single hit deals with DR quite effectively too, I find.
Emperor Point wrote:
This seems like an interesting character concept but doesn't sound like it would be great at low levels. Is there any advice for what you might do at low level?
Two hand a Shillelaghed Quaterstaff enlarged by the growth domain or cast enlarge person via the strength domain for 3d6 + 1 + 1.5xStr (I recommend 18 strength so 12?)
That's what I did.
I think you might have missed the Dragon Style feats in your actual feat section. Was this intentional? I know you actually comment on it in other places, but it's curiously missing from the feat section.
Ah, I must have missed that, embarrassing. I'll get to it when I need to take a break from Dragon Age.
That's easy! (Because I'm playing one.)
1 monk -> 6 levels of Druid (rush for that huge wildshape) -> 1 more level of Druid (For Strong Jaw) -> Any combination of Monk or Druid.
But I'll put the build in the guide.
Mark Seifter wrote:
Thanks very much for the reply, I do feel sorry for all the potential players who wanted to play the archetype but are automatically struck blind by its most iconic ability.
However the issue has been faq-ed enough on the forums that the Design Team will attend to it in due course, so I am content to wait upon that.
Hello Mark, Hope you enjoyed Turkey Day!
Just wanted to ask a quick question. Say a 10th level Druid with the Cave Druid archetype Wildshapes into an ooze as per their class ability:
A cave druid gains this ability at 6th level, except that her effective druid level for this ability is equal to her druid level –2. She cannot use wild shape to adopt a plant form. At 10th level, the cave druid can assume the form of a Small or Medium ooze as if using beast shape III, and at 12th level that of a Tiny or Large ooze as if using beast shape IV (treating the ooze as if it were a magical beast without a natural armor bonus). When in ooze form, the cave druid has no discernible anatomy and is immune to poison, sneak attacks, and critical hits.
Are they automatically blind because oozes have no eyes and they don't gain the Ooze's blindsight ability as per the Wildshape rules?
Thanks for the help,
Its not bad. Some of the spells I want as a druid I get as a lower level as a Hunter like Strong Jaw (but due to worse spellcasting progression, you get it at lvl 7, just the same as a druid).
Mostly the many good Druid archetypes are marginally better than the one Feral Hunter Hunter archetype.
Its a choice thing, really.
Would it be possible to write builds first and place them at the beginning of the guide?
To what end? Those who are new to this kind of build would like to see the basics laid out first, I feel. Also, traditionally, most guides have their builds after the exposition.
There are quite a few guides on both Monk and Druid, and all Druid guides follow Optimization Commandment №1.
For general optimization, sure. "Thou shalt not give up Caster Levels" is useful. For optimizing something specifically (in this case unarmed strike/natural attack damage), some sacrifices have to be made.
Also, I'll let you guys in on a secret. Best druid self buffing spells? You get by lvl 4 (Strong Jaw). A Druid/Monk can happily take 10 levels of druid (for Huge Elemental Wildshape with Shaping focus) and still not feel inferior to his more casterly brethren.
Of course for those of you who want 9th level spells, there is a build that gets that and 8d8 unarmed strike damage too, fret not.
For those of you who are looking forward to the builds, I'll get to them after I finish up with the feats and magic items. I have a couple in mind, worry not. (I've been making this kind of character since the 3rd edition days, after all)
I'm definitely interested in more info about why not brawler...martial flexibility is awesome, full BAB from the get go for all situations (not just when flurrying or using CMB/D) is very nice, and the ability to wear armor for those levels before you actually shift adds some serious versatility.
Your points are valid. Most of the work I have done has been on Monks, Brawlers have only been out a couple of months. The wisdom synergy as you said is a big one. Also, Brawler archetypes are, from what I can see, apart from the Mutagenic Mauler (and that one has its own problems) not synergistic with shifting at all. (Nothing stands out like the MoMS or the Maneuver Master).
Also, the lack of Monastic Legacy is a bit rankling for a multi-classed unarmed character.
As I said previously, I will touch on the Brawler in the guide after I am done with feats and skills.
Secret Wizard wrote:
El si stacko.