Hypothetically which Bard archetype makes for a better melee fighter? (Archaeologist or Dawnflower Dervish)
So I'd just like to get peoples opinion on this: Which archetype is better for a melee bard, the Archaeologist or the Dawnflower Dervish?
- Luck Based, boosted by fate's favoured (which has synergy with the Jingasa of the fortunate soldier and the Orc's sacred tattoo racial trait), activate as a free action.
- 2x inspire courage/greatness/competence bonus (self only) is pretty rad. But limited in weapon choice to scimitar (which isn't bad)
... and with one final blow, The Champion smote the Mantis god in full sight of its followers, and the dark period of the Assassins Reign was over. The Champion strode into legend and was never heard from again... ~But 'Kari, you still haven't told us what your secret is for cleaning the top of the temple gates! You were just distracting us with a story! None of us can jump that high!~ That, young grasshoppers, is a story for another day. Now, Shoo! Let an old rag and mop lady get on with her work. The new acolytes are coming today, and the place needs to be shining and spotless to greet them!:
Female Human (Tian-Shu) Champion of Irori 10/Cleric (Crusader) 1/Monk 3/Paladin (Hospitaler) 6
LG Large humanoid (human, orc)
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +34
AC 47, touch 39, flat-footed 42 (+4 armor, +3 Dex, -1 size, +4 natural, +9 deflection, +2 dodge, +1 insight, +14 untyped)
hp 229 (6d10+14d8+120)
Fort +36, Ref +28, Will +40; +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects, +2 vs. attacks by a specific opponent you have designated
Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune disease, fear
Weakness light sensitivity
Speed 40 ft., fly 60 ft. (good)
Melee unarmed strike +31/+26/+21/+16 (4d8+33)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks channel energy, flurry of blows, sweeping smite, one finger, channel energy, perfect strike, smite chaos, smite evil, stunning fist (8/day, DC 30), whirlwind smite
. . At will—detect chaos, detect evil
. . 13/day—strength surge
Cleric (Crusader) Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +11):
1st (3/day)—protection from evil (x3), enlarge person (DC 21)
0 (at will)—guidance, light
Paladin (Hospitaler) Spells Prepared (CL 3rd; concentration +12):
1st (4/day)—litany of sloth (x4)
Str 30, Dex 16, Con 22, Int 14, Wis 30, Cha 28
Base Atk +18; CMB +33; CMD 69 (71 vs. grapple, 71 vs. reposition, 71 vs. trip)
Feats Channel Smite, Combat Reflexes, Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Eldritch Heritage, Greater Eldritch Heritage, Guided Hand, Improved Eldritch Heritage, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monastic Legacy, Osyluth Guile, Skill Focus (Survival), Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Traits dangerously curious, quain martial artist
Skills Acrobatics +27 (+31 jump), Appraise +3, Bluff +18, Climb +11, Diplomacy +33, Disguise +10, Escape Artist +4, Fly +33, Heal +11, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (religion) +16, Linguistics +11, Perception +34, Ride +4, Sense Motive +34, Stealth +0, Survival +14, Swim +11, Use Magic Device +24
Languages Aklo, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Orc, Sylvan, Tien, Undercommon, Vanaran, Vudrani
SQ ac bonus, aura, aura of courage, aura of good, divine bonds (weapon [1/day]), domains (strength), fast movement, ki pool, lay on hands, maneuver training, mercies (mercy [fatigued], mercy [staggered]), perfect opening, power of giants, shield the weak, skill mastery, spontaneous casting, stunning fist (stun), touch of rage, unarmed strike, valiant stand
Combat Gear Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day), Ring of foe focus, Spectral shroud (1/day), Wand of Mage Armor, Bronze gong (1 uses); Other Gear Belt of physical perfection +6, Bracers of the avenging knight, Cloak of resistance +5, Handy haversack (empty), Headband of mental superiority +6 (Sense Motive, F, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ioun stone (pale green prism), Ioun stone (pale green prism), Manual of gainful exercise +1, Monk's robe, Ring of ki mastery (2 at a time), Speed Amulet of mighty fists +2, Tome of leadership and influence +4, Tome of understanding +4, Winged boots (3/day), 60150 GP
Mythic is all well and good, but three problems with making builds with it:
1. Completely DM fiat. I mean, the DM could give you 300k starting gold and a magical unicorn as well. I'd rather build around not having that.
2. Its kinda hard to make a bad mythic character isn't it? I mean, two turns in a round, DR piercing anything and I take no damage from your hits is pretty awesome. (CoI can manage it as a non mythic character, but that takes planning)
3. I actually have no experience with the mythic rules, somebody else could probably do a better job than I.
What is the bonus Type of a Dex modifier? Is it a dodge bonus? A sacred bonus? A competence bonus? A deflection or armor/shield bonus? Or any of the other named bonuses? If not, by default it is un-typed.
Or do you have "general rules" that back that up as well? (Not saying that you don't, but I've never seen one personally.)
I'm pretty sure that the reason that they've marked it as "No response required" is that they view it as using the same variable twice in the equation. Str + Dex + whatever else = cool groovy deal. Dex + Dex + whatever = wrongbadfun in their eyes.
In all my looking at the Dev responses on the forums, I haven't seen them rule one way or the other, actually. It could quite possibly also be that they regard the RAW as being quite obvious (untyped bonus stack) and are wondering why we are asking this question.
In any event, I'm quite flummoxed as to why it was marked no response required when they actually haven't chimed in and said anything yet.
The main issue I have is that RAW it doesn't state (IIRC) anywhere in the core rulebook that the -5 for each iterative attack that you perform are "penalties", its just how iterative attacks work. So RAW, my problem is there.
Large shield in offhand and TWF are definitely penalties though, and those are straight out eliminated.
It's been stated that the monk's entire body is the weapon used to perform unarmed strikes. It's also been stated that unarmed strikes require particular body parts, and which parts are valid seems to change depending on the argument.
So not particularly then? I mean I'm fine with having the fist remain in place and the monk not being able to move from the spot, but to become paralyzed seems a bit much? Its not something I can derive from the RAW.
Robert A Matthews wrote:
I would say yes as long as you keep whatever limb you attacked with anchored to that point in space. That does bring amusing images to my mind of a monk repeatedly kicking the air to jump over mountains.
Considering that you can only use one swift action every 6 seconds, that's going to be a really slow climb.
Actually, small mistake. This character has an AC of 36 versus a single foe due to osyluth guile, not 32. Herolab doesn't take that into account.
In a dream, I walked down a dusty path, the praise and adulation of the masses resounding in my ears. Lost in my pride, I did not see the stone in the road until and the ground rose to meet me as I unceremoniously lost my footing. I heard a kind voice beside me say ~So Close To Home, What a Pity It Would Be to Trip~ Then I awoke to the western gong summoning a foolish abbotess to morning meditations.:
So here is the anchoring weapon property:
This special ability can only be added to a melee weapon or a thrown weapon. An anchoring weapon pins a target in place and prevents it from moving. As a swift action, the weapon can be fixed in place in a point in space, functioning as an immovable rod. This ability can also be used when the wielder hits a creature with a melee attack using an anchoring weapon. This anchors the target to the weapon, preventing it from moving away from the weapon. The target is not entangled or paralyzed; it simply cannot move from its location without first destroying the weapon or making a successful DC 30 Strength check as a full-round action to move with the weapon up to 10 feet. An anchoring weapon remains motionless and cannot be used to attack while it is anchoring a creature. An anchoring weapon has no effect on amorphous creatures, including elementals, oozes, and creatures in gaseous or liquid form. It also cannot anchor incorporeal creatures unless the weapon also has the ghost touch special ability.
What happens when a monk punches a foe with an "anchoring" unarmed strike? Can he then use his leg to kick or headbutt the now locked to one spot enemy?
When I reached my 16th summer, I had learned to discern virtue and focus from depravity and liscentiousness. Right-Action directed my hands, compassion compelled my feet. I realized that I had just begun my journey to understanding.:
Female Human (Tian-Shu) Champion of Irori 4/Cleric (Crusader) 1/Monk 3/Paladin (Hospitaler) 2
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +13
AC 32, touch 28, flat-footed 25 (+4 armor, +2 Dex, +4 deflection, +5 dodge, +6 untyped)
hp 75 (2d10+8d8+20)
Fort +18, Ref +13, Will +21; +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
Defensive Abilities evasion
Speed 40 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +15/+10 (1d8+13)
Special Attacks channel energy, flurry of blows, smite chaos, smite evil, stunning fist (4/day, DC 20), sweeping smite
. . At will—detect chaos, detect evil
. . 8/day—strength surge
Cleric (Crusader) Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +6):
1st (2/day)—protection from evil (x2), enlarge person (DC 16)
0 (at will)—guidance, light
Paladin (Hospitaler) Spells Prepared (CL 0; concentration +4):
Str 13, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 21, Cha 18
Base Atk +8; CMB +10; CMD 34 (36 vs. grapple, 36 vs. reposition, 36 vs. trip)
Feats Channel Smite, Combat Reflexes, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Guided Hand, Improved Unarmed Strike, Osyluth Guile, Skill Focus (Survival), Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Traits dangerously curious, quain martial artist
Skills Acrobatics +15 (+19 jump), Bluff +12, Knowledge (religion) +9, Linguistics +7, Perception +13, Survival +8, Use Magic Device +12
Languages Aklo, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Tien, Undercommon, Vanaran
SQ ac bonus, aura, aura of good, domains (strength), fast movement, ki pool, lay on hands, maneuver training, spontaneous casting, stunning fist (stun), unarmed strike, valiant stand
Combat Gear Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day), Wand of Mage Armor, Bronze gong (1 uses); Other Gear Amulet of mighty fists +1, Belt of physical perfection +2, Bracers of the avenging knight, Cloak of resistance +2, Headband of mental prowess (Wis & Cha +2), Ring of ki mastery (2 at a time), 650 GP
Lvl 10, you rock basically. AC 32 when smiting and fighting defensively. 1d8 + 13, 17/17/12 attack routine.
8 ki points (ki pool) + 7 channel energy attempts + 2 Native Smite Evil uses + 5 native lay on hand uses (healing 3d6 as a swift action) = A whole heck of a lot of combat potential.
My training in the ways of the Enlightned began in my 3rd winter. For 12 turns of the wheel of seasons, I was given heavier and heavier surcoats for my name-day celebrations. Then my honoured Master bid me turn somersaults until the breath left my lungs.:
Female Human (Tian-Shu) Cleric (Crusader) 1
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +1; Senses Perception +3
AC 18, touch 11, flat-footed 17 (+5 armor, +2 shield, +1 Dex)
hp 9 (1d8+1)
Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +5
Speed 20 ft.
Melee heavy shield bash -4 (1d4) and
. . gauntlet (from armor) +0 (1d3) and
. . unarmed strike +4 (1d3+1)
Special Attacks channel energy
. . 6/day—strength surge
Cleric (Crusader) Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +4):
1st (1/day)—enlarge person (DC 14), comprehend languages
0 (at will)—guidance, light
Str 11, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 17, Cha 16
Base Atk +0; CMB +0; CMD 11
Feats Channel Smite, Guided Hand, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Traits quain martial artist, wisdom in the flesh
Skills Acrobatics +1 (-3 jump), Climb -6, Escape Artist -5, Fly -5, Knowledge (religion) +3, Linguistics +3, Ride -5, Stealth -5, Swim -6
Languages Common, Draconic, Tien
SQ aura, domains (strength), spontaneous casting
Other Gear Scale mail, Heavy steel shield, 80 GP
Lvl 1, not much to say, start off as a cleric, but good news, your unarmed strike hits like a fighter. Bad news, the damage is quite poor.
If you have access to Improved Unarmed Strike, either via the Monk Class or the appropriate fighter archetype or via the feat, you can totally chain your iterative attacks and your natural attacks together.
The rules state that:
1: Your Iterative attacks are unarmed strikes, and you take them at full strength to damage.
2: Your natural attacks happen after your iterative attacks, they are considered secondary natural attacks (even if they were primary originally) and thus take a -5 to hit (-2 with multiattack) and half strength to damage.
Thus you can have a kung fu allosaurus pounding with his headbutts, elbows and kicks, and his claws and bites.
So you would consider having a couple of extra ki points around (that could, as you say, be used for smiting, but will more than likely be used for self/party healing seeing as how as this is a frontline character that doesn't wear armor, and the CoI does not progress number of lay on hands) as something beyond even the pale of a serious powergamer, with access to the like of summoners and druids?
Well and good, at least I know where you are coming from.
I also like the RAW. I like it a lot. As in, I regularly roll my eyes and allow stuff I think is dopey because it's RAW. RAW gives us an agreed-on set of rules for the game! That's hugely important.
And once in a while, once in a very great while, that means manning up and changing it when something is obviously not right.
Not that I am unconvinced by you, but your first reaction to the bronze gong giving 6 extra ki points/day was to ban it.
So was that a "once in a very great while" kind of thing? If so, it seems that where we draw the line is quite different.
I think you really need to rethink that attitude.
That's a bit of a presumptuous statement to make, isn't it? I haven't had the pleasure of having you as a DM or a player, and I think the same can be said, vice versa.
DM's aren't bound by some kind of law or police force to run a game as per Mose's stone bound tablets. DM and Player relations are a form of give and take. IF a DM has a problem with what you want, ask WHY. You may find that the both of you can find a middle ground that leaves you both happy. Your best chances are generally by avoiding corner interpretations of text when possible. RAW isn't a perfect fit in all situations, and there will be times when I as a DM will set aside or modify RAW, when I think it's for the good of my campaign to do so.
As I previously stated, whatever seems fair to you at your table, will be what goes.
But since you seem like you want to correct my mindset, let me at least lay it out for your benefit.
I like the RAW. As a DM, I like players thinking of me as someone who isn't capricious, and who won't shoot down their builds just because I happened not to like the amount of damage they were putting out one session, or they happened to kill my NPC too quickly for my preference. I like them knowing that I will adapt to challenge them, as the wide ruleset allows.
As a player, I like knowing that if I find a clever way to make an effective character (in one faculty, of course, no character can be skilled in everything, a fact that most DMs should reflect on, before automatically declaring a build verboten), the DM will respect both the effort I put in and the ingenuity I displayed, and instead of having a gut reaction, work with me to integrate well into the party and the story.
In short, I like rules. I admit, some of them are misguided or mistaken, but I trust in the Paizo devs to fix those in either the long or short term.
In other words, nice to meet you Neutral, my name is Lawful.
The main thing is I don't want to suggest something, and then have it shot down by a DM later. I'd rather that the advice I give be pretty watertight and as little dependent on DM fiat (except that the DMs follow the rules as written, that is) as possible.
But hey, if DMs are permissible at the tables you are playing at, let the dice fly!
At the beginning, only take one level of paladin to shift entry to 6th level (1 Clr/ 1 Paladin / 3 Mnk). Play like a cleric (heavy armor, support) for the initial levels, use good weapons until you enter CoI (reach weapon would be good here since you have both close up and distance options).
No hurry to get guided hand as 1d6 damage initially isn't all that great.
Hmm, considering the latest FAQ on Sohei flurrying in light armor, and considering that they can wield martial weapons (santetsukon 1d10/19-20 x2 is the obvious choice here), they make probably the best body/weapon style builds at the moment.
You probably can drop wis and concentrate on Cha, so they are basically like a traditional paladin, only with flurry.
Hmm, tiger style/power attack seems clutch here.
The only problem is that all your Monk Bonus feats are wasted (mounted combat is absolutely useless for CoIs)
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
You do whatever seems fair to you at your table. For my part, I can only work with what has been provided in the rules as written.
On the subject of power, I doubt most people are in this thread to see a "better than average" CoI, but rather the best CoI that can be created using rules from Paizo, which I humbly submit, I have made a decent run at.
Those are obviously her Bracers of the Avenging Knight :P
So all channel foci (of which the bronze gong is one) work the same way, you put a use of channel energy in, you get an effect other than the usual heal 1d6/deal 1d6 damage out. This ability is only limited by your daily uses of channel energy.
For the bronze gong, you put in a channel energy use, you get out a ki point. It takes a standard action to use, so I wouldn't do it in combat, but out of combat, you can basically refill your ki pool to its theoretical maximum (until you run out of channel energy uses).
It basically turns your channel energy into your second ki pool, which you can then turn into smite evil uses or lay on hands, or heck, use it for an extra attack just like the rest of the regular monks.
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
The one level dip in cleric is for 3 things:
1. Guided hand for the wis to hit without giving up flurry
1 level of CoI is worth giving up for these three things. Even just for the channel energy pool alone.
Really? I would be interested in seeing this faq ruling.
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Since you're building him as the BBGG, just go whole hog and choose an Aasimar with the immortal spark trait (start at middle age) for extra stats.
With that you can start with these stats:
You'll have to pick up guided hand a bit later, but heck, since you're starting at 12, it doesn't really matter.
Feats are as listed, you pretty much are unhittable at this point and your saves are divine grace boosted.
The build I made can be found here:
Sensei is nice, but you don't really lose anything with that one cleric level and having to take the TWF feats if you want to get extra attacks is a drag. Really vanilla monk is best, because you don't have enough levels in it for it to be worth anything yet.
Hope that helps.
Driver 325 yards wrote:
My low level solution was a bag of holding in the shape of a wineskin. Mid level-high level solution was a flask of endless sake.
I haven't thought much about retraining, as I don't have the book. I must admit, Orc makes a lot of sense for this build if you like. Either I missed the free endurance feat the first time around or it wasn't available yet.
I do wonder how well the coup-de-grace stunned enemies in the middle of combat trick works in actual play though, for me this build is mostly theoretical.
Playing age of worms using the Pathfinder system but keeping it in Greyhawk, what do I have to be aware of?
So say I wanted to run Age of Worms in Pathfinder system, but with the setting being Greyhawk (basically unchanged from the module). What would I have to be aware of?
How would the CR of creatures convert between the two? I understand Pathfinder PCs are a bit beefier, so drop the CR of AoW encounters by 1 maybe? Or are there actual rules about this?
The statblocks of the adventure seem reasonable serviceable, but no values for CMB/CMD, I can probably look it up or estimate that on the fly, but are there any other statblock perils that I need to look out for?
Is there anything else I am not considering? Presumably clerical turning is quite different and this might make a difference in the undead heavy AoW campaign...
Hmm, I had a rather decent ninja/monk unarmed sap master build statted out somewhere...
Ah righty, here it is:
1.) Wisdom for as much as possible (AC, ki points, to hit, ability DC)
urrgh, sorry I haven't put the builds anywhere yet. The thread from 2012 is indeed where I put my best CoI build (or so I felt it to be).
Tell you what, I'll re-purpose my Spirit CoI build for the guide this weekend if someone puts up a Body build for entry (as I haven't given those much thought).
So I was thinking about something similar a while ago, the judo monk/druid but mainly trip focused, grapple being a natural extension of druid size shenanigans.
With viscous stomp and greater trip, you can get two attacks when you trip a foe. Profit!
So this is the result of my noodling:
1. Start with Halfling (access to underfoot adept and bonus to dex)
2. Get into Monk (Underfoot Adept and Maneuver Master Archetypes) - Underfoot adept allows you to trip as if you were two sizes larger and gives you Improved Trip for free, Maneuver Master allows you to flurry of Maneuvers.
3. Pick up Greater Trip (from Maneuver Master) and Viscous Stomp (from levels)
4. Druid and shaping focus as mentioned above allows you to quickly access good wildshape forms, go straight for air elementals that boost dex (also, you can't be counter-tripped)
5. Pick up weapon finesse and fury's fall for 2x dex to trip attempts.
6. An agile amulet of mighty fist won't go amiss either.
So... all points into dex (plus Halfling bonus and enhancement equipment naturally), morph into a huge air elemental (+6 size bonus to dex), multiply that bonus by 2 and start tripping colossal creatures (you are considered colossal yourself thanks to 10 levels of Underfoot adept).
(If you can get pounce from plains druid domain) You can run up, flurry of maneuvers and trip your foeman (hit him twice thanks to greater trip and viscous stomp), flurry again and blind him (you did pick up Improved Dirty trick, didn't you?) whale on his prone form with your fists and then if he tries to get up, hit him again (I think you can't trip him as an AoO since he is already prone).
Then I guess you can insult his ancestry in Halfling as well.
Good AC too, that goes without saying.
Be a friend to your friends and an enemy to your enemies.
To your fellow PCs, you respect them, after all they're elite enough to be running around with you aren't they? You are the most important cog in a well oiled killing machine. The word here is Espirit de Corps. You are the leader of fantasy Seal Team 6.
Sure you've got an overinflated opinion of yourself and your capabilities, you're a bit of an order giver/shouter in combat, and out of it, you probably offer a bit too much unsolicited advice. But its all so the others can keep up with you.
To your enemies, cut the frack loose! Insult their weakness, belittle their strengths. Make snide put-downs or even just sigh in disappointed resignation when you have the upper hand, as if this scum wasn't worth your very valuable time.
When you face the big boss, act as if he is your nemesis, and the other PCs are just backing you up (which is as it should be).
"I am not one of the little people." Should be the foremost and most frequent thought in your head.