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The Manyfaced One

prototype00's page

1,107 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Hello Mark,

Query I had recently come up. Per the Paizo Blog only combat maneuvers directly involving weapons (normally trip, disarm and sunder) are allowed to add weapon bonuses (enchancements e.t.c.) to the maneuver attempt.

Grapple is not normally one of these maneuvers, but what about weapons (and natural weapons) that patently are involved in the grappling process, that is, weapons like the Mancatcher and a T-Rex's bite with the Grab special quality. Would, for example, weapon focus and enhancement bonuses on these weapons add to the maneuver itself?

Many thanks for your and the PDT's continued hard work, we, the players and DMs might not always agree with what you decide, but we are always thankful for your effort.


As long as my Allosaurus Druid/Monk still does 12d8 damage with his claws, I say screw the demi-folk! :)


Sure, sure. The OP is asking for advice though, so I thought it might be politic to bring up the drawbacks.


Note: The tentacle attacks of a giant lake octopus are its secondary natural attacks. (Its bite is the primary natrual attack)

Sure, you get 8 of them, and you get to do your monk unarmed damage with them (with feral combat training), but they are all at -2 to hit and 1/2 strength to damage.


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Ascalaphus wrote:

It's really only a few corner cases in the inquisitor that get hit by this. And if you were using those to double-stack Wisdom to some abilities, I personally think you had it coming because you should've known that was a little cheesy.

I personally do not appreciate the accusation that you leveled there against me. Calling someone's ideas cheesy when they are based on a strict reading of the rules is quite insulting. You wouldn't want me to name you a Grognard Neckbeard would you? (Hypothetically of course :P)

What is one build's corner case is another build's bread and butter. Personally I like to refer to the RAW as much as possible.


wraithstrike wrote:
prototype00 wrote:

NOOooooooOOO!!! MY BUILD IS RUINED! Ruined I say!

No not really, the Monk/Sacred Fist is still the most powerful iteration of the Unarmed style fighter-ish. It was a nice bonus, but now that it is settled, most DMs won't take as much umbrage when it is brought to their table.

I do feel sorry for all the Inquisitors though, but judging from how people were constantly comparing them favorably in role to the Warpriest, they needed to be taken down a peg.


I still think they are better than the warpriest overall, and that is before I started to stack ability scores. :)

Hey, Base Warpriest I'm inclined to agree with you. But Sacred Fist? I think the damage output is at least even, if not better (Inquisitor might still edge out in non-combat situations).


NOOooooooOOO!!! MY BUILD IS RUINED! Ruined I say!

No not really, the Monk/Sacred Fist is still the most powerful iteration of the Unarmed style fighter-ish. It was a nice bonus, but now that it is settled, most DMs won't take as much umbrage when it is brought to their table.

I do feel sorry for all the Inquisitors though, but judging from how people were constantly comparing them favorably in role to the Warpriest, they needed to be taken down a peg.


Regular Monk/Druid - 12d8 Unarmed Strike

Vital Striking Monk Druid - 48d8 Unarmed Strike

Conqueror Ooze - 14d8 Unarmed Strike (Well Slam, but close enough with feral combat training)

Vital Striking Conqueror Ooze - 56d8 Unarmed Strike

Vital Striking, Furious Finish Conqueror Ooze with fatigue Immunity - 448 damage with change (static mods which I haven't put in, because, why, at this point.)

*RAW it works because the growth domain ability is a Su ability and thus stacks with beast shape polymorph spell ability* Enlarged Vital Striking, Furious Finish Conqueror Ooze with fatigue Immunity - 672 damage and change.

Of course this is assuming only one source of actual size increase and one source of *as if they were x sizes larger*, which is not RAW, but really, if you can size increases like that, it isn't sporting anymore.


Hi James,

Are the dinosaurs in Golarion feathered as science seems to be implying was the case here on Earth? (I.e. feathered Allosauruses, Deionychus)


I think it would apply, but only to the initial check made to grapple the target when you use your grab ability. After that I don't think the bonus would apply any longer, unless you take the -20 (effectively -18 due to GMF) penalty to grapple for using on the body part with the grab ability (bite in your case).

Grab doesn't just stop working after the initial grapple:

Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.

Every grapple check made in a grapple (i.e. to maintain the grapple) benefits from grab.

Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.

I don't think it would. Combat maneuvers which use a weapon (disarm, sunder and trip) apply all applicable weapon bonuses (enhancement bonus of the weapon, feat bonuses, etc.) to the CMB check, but other maneuvers do not. Since it is not mentioned in this category, your enhancement bonus to attack rolls is not applied to grapple checks. It probably should be though. Ask your GM.
For other maneuvers, either you’re not using a weapon at all, or the weapon is incidental to making the maneuver and its bonuses shouldn’t make you better at attempting the maneuver. For example, just because you have a +5 greatsword doesn’t mean it gives you a +5 bonus on dirty trick checks (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide 320), and just because you have a +5 dagger doesn’t mean it gives you a +5 bonus on grapple checks. Of course, the GM is free to rule that in certain circumstances, a creature can apply weapon bonuses for these maneuvers, such as when using a sap in a dirty trick maneuver to hit an opponent in a sensitive spot.

So it is DM fiat as to whether a weapon is involved in a combat maneuver and therefore should benefit? Fair enough, I agree with what you said, Runs.

Fortunately, I am the DM :)


So say I'm a Druid and I shift into an allosaurus. If I cast greater magic fang on my bite, which has grab, would the +2 to attack apply to my subsequent grapple checks?



Here's a secret I've learned, EVERYBODY likes to feel powerful, NOBODY likes to feel like they are being carried.

So when you create characters for your next game, help others make optimal choices and powerful characters. Then when you play one, you're just one of the guys/gals.

This is how I've sneaked my most optimal builds into play, really.


Nimble Guardian Monk 7+. Hard to argue with 4x 6d8 damage claws on a charge.


Kazumetsa_Raijin wrote:


I must admit, I was surprised that it didn't work with Close Weapons... poor Brawler's got shafted. At least Monk's have a style that will seriously help them out!

Can't Brawlers, y'know, just use unarmed strikes like the rest of us? Too good for the sweet science eh?


Oh thank heavens you've arrived Pathfinder Design Team! Whatever would we do without you! *swoon*


Crane riposte does make Cane style (and fighting defensively) more situationally useful with the extra +1 to AC.


666bender wrote:

yes, its still a very good feat.

Fair enough, though I notice that you haven't voted yet.

Yeah, you missed a choice... How about when you've never used it, even when it was the theorycrafter's favorite?

I'm not sure how that tells me much about how the use has changed, "I never used it before, and now that its been nerf, I DEFINITELY don't use it" isn't a demographic I feel contributes to a complete picture, but am I mistaken there?


By the by, if I missed out any pertinent choices, please feel free to inform me and I'll add it in.


23 people marked this as a favorite.

And favorite this post if it finds its way into super specialized fighting defensively builds, but otherwise not at all. (For the record, this is where I fall).

25 people marked this as a favorite.

Favorite this post if you find yourself never using it after the nerf when you had used it a lot before.

3 people marked this as a favorite.

So I'm just curious if Paizo's nerf of Crane Style made it less popular in general play. I think most DMs wanted to see it not as good, but still a viable choice, but it may be the case that nobody uses it anymore because of better choices out there.

So favorite this post if you still include it in your builds as a matter of course.

As far as I am aware, a charging monk with pummeling strike will double all his damage dice from every attack (since all of them are attacks made while charging) with janni rush.

I am aware that there is a faq for mounted combat/spirited charge, but with all my research, I have not seen any indication that it has anything to do with non-mounted combat.

Ah here is the faq:


Mounted Combat: When making a charge while mounted, which creature charges? The rider or the mount?

Both charge in unison, suffer the same penalty to AC, the gaining the same bonus to the attack rolls and following all other rules for the charge. The mounted combat rules are a little unclear on this. Replace the third paragraph under the "Combat while Mounted" section on page 202 with the following text. Note that a "mounted charge" is synonymous with a "charge while mounted," and that when a lance is "when used from the back of a charging mount" it is during a mounted charge not when only the mount charges.

A mounted charge is a charge made by you and your mount. During a mounted charge, you deal double damage with your first melee attack made with a lance or with any weapon if you have Spirited Charge (or a similar effect), or you deal triple damage with a lance and Spirited Charge.

This change will be reflected in future printings of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook

As to MoMS qualifying for Pummeling charge at 2nd level, that is also legit, but they give up quite a bit for it, I feel.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
I'd say yes. improved natural attack is an exceptionally strong jaw, an exceptionally large set of claws. You've physically, mundanely changed the natural weapon in question. Strongjaw magically imbues the claw/bite/talon with with MORE POWER!

My personal take is that you get one actual size increase and one "as if you were" size increase, and that's that.

Improved natural attack is obviously dealing damage "as if you were" one size larger, so it wouldn't stack with Strong Jaw. It would stack, quite handily, with animal growth.

As an aside: This, this (24d8 damage on a natural attack!!!) is entirely all right for you, but 4 extra AC from Wis is munchkin madness?

I do not comprehend at all how your mind works, BNW.


So there is no reason to go chasing after dragon style if it doesn't work RAW, just pick up dragon style and Horn of the Criosphinx.

Now when you charge, by RAW, all your attacks from pummeling style do 2.5x strength bonus (due to dragon ferocity and Horn of the Criosphinx, dragon style itself is completely ignored).

Ta da!


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Vote: Hell to the no.

The strong feeling that this particular question has garnered is a never-ending source of amusement and wonderment to me.

And for the record, yes, of course they stack, thats the way the rules-as-written work!


Evil summons don't have as many cures though, if that is what you are gunning for. The Leonal on the other hand has that 1/day heal (which each summoning should net you a new one of) and has lay on hands for 7d6 9 times per day.

Melee damage isn't great (ironically for the giant anthropomorphic lion) I admit, but at will 10d6 fireballs makes up for a fair bit in my opinion.

On the subject of Horn of the Criosphinx, well, since I am partial to the 2 monk dip, I took quicken blessing as my 13th level feat, and Horn of the Criosphinx as my 11th, but yes, you are broadly correct about the higher requirements for it.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

When I saw that Andrew Christian had chosen this as his hill that he wanted to die on, I basically lost all interest in the conversation.

Either I'm right, and he has lost all that time and effort he invested into it. (and if time and effort made one right, Andrew would be right 10 times over in this thread)

Or he is right, in which case we get a lot of new rules to clarify things (because frack me, if that isn't a can of wriggly worms, ability typed bonuses).

Either way, win win, and I have expended as little of my valuable (heh) posting time and effort as possible.


Very much liking the guide so far, so well done! Just a couple of points for possible inclusion:

1. Horn of the Criosphinx is a winner of a feat for the Sacred fist, double your strength to damage while pummeling charge (for all attacks too) is a bit hard to pass up.

2. As to the ring of summoning affinity, I am partial to the Agathion one (especially since it adds a good creature to the 8th level Summon monster list, the Leonal). With Quicken blessing at high levels, it is basically a swift action heal + a combat beatstick (leonals can cast heal, and it is a free action to say, "Please, Old Chap, cast that heal on me")


Oh, also a Samsaran Sacred Fist with the Strong Jaw spell can easily reach 8d8 unarmed damage at lvl 15 with a casting of Righteous Might. I know people are more fond of static mods, but 8d8 damage is a non-insignificant amount (especially since you don't have to sacrifice your static mods to get it, power attack, dragon style and horn of the criosphinx means that you are doing a good 30+ static damage per hit).

Get a wand of Strong Jaw (Ranger 7th level spell) and UMD to use it for 8d8 damage?


Adaptable luck is a luck bonus for halflings.


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Clustered shots has the advantage that it is from range, Pummeling style has the advantage that you can use it on a charge and the crits apply.

You might disagree, but I see the balance between the two feats.


A couple of suggestions:

Crusader's Flurry is good for a Sacred fist of Irori if he wants to be more wis focused (of course you can also work on your Strength and do all the other tricks, you're just more AC focused rather than damaged focused). Unfortunately as pointed out in the other thread, Irori has quite crap domains for blessing, ah well.

Samsarans can raid the Ranger's spell list with Mystic Past Life and pick up a bunch of useful spells:

Lead Blades (1st)
Longstrider (1st)
Barkskin (2nd)
Lockjaw (2nd)
Magic Fang Greater (3rd, a whole level before Greater Magic Weapon!)
Strong Jaw (3rd, fantastic with Fervor swift action casting!)


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Actually they took the multiclassing restriction out of the ACG in the end. They just added that if there are redundant abilities between the parent classes and the hybrid class, they don't stack.


For one round (strength) versus 10 rounds (destruction). What are the statistics with that in mind?

Also Gorum is verboten for Monk/Sacred Fists (I think... you can't be a NG Aasimar and MoMS doesn't stack with martial artist).


Undone wrote:

I'd just like to chime in on this.

A warpriest can call upon the power of his blessings a number of times per day (in any combination) equal to 3 + 1/2 his warpriest level (to a maximum of 13 times per day at 20th level). Each time he calls upon any one of his blessings, it counts against his daily limit.

Blessings are really unique because you only need 1 of the four abilities granted to be good all the time.

Strength is VERY strong despite looking poor. Mathy spoilers** spoiler omitted **

That said the law major blessing should be the blessing you usually use at level 10 + because the summoning blessings are just better than all of the other blessings.

As opposed to the Destruction blessing which is +10 to damage? For 1 minute per use (So if you have foreknowledge, it is almost guaranteed for a whole combat instead of a single round?)?

I dunno, I can do math too, and I think Destruction is much better.


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Strength is kind of a crap blessing for the sacred fist because the minor gives you an enhancement bonus to your attacks and damage (which incidentally is the most prevalent bonus source and won't stack with basically everything), and the major gives you the ability to ignore armor movement penalties (that full plate you're not wearing as a sacred fist is really hampering you).

Personally Alignment, Destruction, Travel, Luck and Trickery are the winners for me, runner up for Repose if you can find a way to put foes to sleep (quicken blessing and conductive amulet of mighty fist perhaps).

Kudos for the Sacred Fist though, thats what I've been wanting since 3.5 ended. My thanks.


Thug in my opinion is a really good archetype and can only be chosen by the rogue class, so thats something.


Hi James,

Was just thinking about Dragon Empires and high level foes in general. Roughly how many Void Yai Oni (including Voidlords) would you say there are operating in Golarion?

Is it closer to dozens or hundreds?


You are mistaken. You don't have to meet the prerequisite of the first feat in the style tree either.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

What type of bonus is the wisdom mod? Is it sacred? Luck? Something you pulled out of thin air that isn't in the rules?

The smallest most useless channel that qualifies you for channel smite/guided hand, and also becomes many more ki points through a bronze gong.

Thus allowing you to smite all enemies all the time as a Champion of Irori.

Every little helps. :)


2 people marked this as a favorite.
The rules tell you what you can do, not what you can't do.

You seem to be ignoring this. Everything else is fluff text, unless it says it does something mechanical. No damage or no save or die effect? It doesn't do these things.

RAW means taking the rules as written, not extrapolating some kind of "logical extreme" based on the flavor text.


Wouldn't every attack for the dragon style / ferocity, horn of the criosphinx combo be 2.5x Str (2x for Horn of the Criosphinx, .5x for dragon ferocity, dragon style is just a way to get dragon ferocity).


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
They don't stack, because untyped bonuses from the same source do not stack. The source in both cases is the ability 'AC Bonus'.

The counter arguement:

While both abilities may share the same name, the abilities themselves are different. One is EX, the other SU. One grants an untyped AC bonus as you level, the other grants a deflection bonus as you level.

The as you level bonus stacks, but both of the abilities are use wisdom bonus for the large chunk of the boost, which is double dipping.

Oh BNW, what are you going to do if they rule, eventually, that double dipping is totes legal? :P

Don't get me wrong, if they rule against me, I'm going to do what I've always done*.


*Curl up into a foetal position and cry while bingeing on a tub of ice-cream and cry-whinging to Merisiel that nobody understands me.

... Is this for real? Like a real question you are asking as a DM about to inflict dickery upon his players?

In which case, I would sincerely and seriously counsel against rapidly expanding the capability of Supernatural ability outside what has been spelled out by RAW (and golly, your use of the term "RAW" shames me, a staunch adherent of it).

I know the DM is king of his own campaign, but you'll just end up no/masochistic players if you head down this dark path.

The ability will, RAW,:

1: Destroy liquids (unless you are a water elemental, creatures aren't regarded usually as liquids. Are you considered a liquid perchance? A water elemental striding, hidden, amongst us mere mortals?)

2: Destroy potions if a will save is failed.

I wish I had the link to the Penny Arcade comic where Tycho tried this on his group and lost all his players. But the comic site search function is utter rust-monster leavings, so alas.


Petty Alchemy wrote:

You've already got a large feat list, but don't forget Risky Striker.

I've played this type of character before, though it was with pre-nerf Crane Wing and a dip into Aldori Swordlord for Dex to damage (pre-Slashing Grace).

I'm not sure how you get to share +5 AC though, unless you're going into total defense.

Your personal bonus is +2 Fighting Defensively +1 Acrobatics Ranks + 1 Crane Style + 2 Cautious Fighter = +6, thus sharing +3 to allies. Have I missed something?

I am starting to question whether the character gets enough feats to make it work.

Osyluth guile is also adding a dodge bonus when I fight defensively. That is added, isn't it?


Either even dex/wis for the dex build or even str/wis for the dragon style build.

Your damage suffers too much otherwise.


Probably Dex based since he/she wants evasion to work well too.

The dex build gets pretty tanky and can deal decent damage with an agile amulet of mighty fists, a mere 4k investment.


*Translated from Minkaian*

"... so Master Samurai, please help our village! The bandits will return tomorrow! And we will either pay them with our lives or with the food we need to survive the winter!"

I'm no Samurai, just a wandering Ronin, but what are you offering in return for my services?

"...errr ummm...*sigh* Gold and treasure we have none, all we can give is three full meals a d..

SOLD! But make it seven, no point missing second breakfast and afternoon tea!

So I'm taking a break from obsessing about the intricacies of a Monk/Warpriest (Sacred Fist) multiclass and instead turning my glare upon the other combo the ACG has thrown up, the Dashing Champion Cavalier! All of the goodness of the Swashbuckler, none of the weaknesses (or we shall see I suppose).

Paired with a Katana (highest crit there is out there) it is a good combo.

Looking for a good race, I happened upon the halfling, +Dex, + Cha, small sized so good AC, weapon shrinkage is a pain, but most of the damage dealt is going to be static (from precise strike and challenge) so no loss. Str is low, but who needs it!

Hmm, but what is this? Halflings are great at defense (cautious fighter)! Well, you need to fight defensively to get it... but Crane style goes great with that! And you need one hand free for most of the Swashbuckler stuff anyway. And with + Cha, I can stack Cha onto my AC with Osyluth guile!

Now what order to take... Order of the Flame! My AC will start off pretty high anyway, might as well take something that will take some of it off, but translate it into killer damage!

And with bludering defense, my allies can benefit from around +5 to AC and CMD (from my +10 dodge bonus eventually) just from standing around me! Nice.


1. Halfling is a good race for Dashing Champion
2. Fighting defensively very easy for them, and very good with Crane Style/Osyluth guile.
3. Allies benefit from blundering defense (and possibly bodyguard).
4. Quite crazy damage.

Still in the thinking/planning stage, but something should come up.


While there is nothing stopping you flavoring him/her as a Samurai, you are missing certain class abilities to actually be the Samurai alternate class.

You certainly are closer to the non-heavily armored Ronin samurai of the Chanbara films with this archetype than the samurai class though.


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