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The Manyfaced One

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Sorry for the misunderstanding, I had every intentions to have it as part of Guide to the Guides, I just wanted it in a bit more finished/polished state before I put it up for inclusion, that's all.

prototype00


Secret Wizard wrote:
Quote:
Also- horn is best when you dip MoMS, and grab pummeling style and dragon style. Dragon ferocity adds a bonus equal to 1/2 your str score, so it should stack with horn's x2 str (plus, dragon style eases charging). Because people who get in your way do not deserve faces. But don't quote me on any of that (well...other than the quote found in general replies..), since bonus stacking is always a bit iffy.
el no stacko
prototype00 wrote:

Hmm, well, I put the question to Mark Seifter and he had this to say:

Quote:
It looks to me like nothing changed. Just as before, it still definitely doesn't forth with Dragon Style's increase to 1.5, and it may or may not work with Ferocity depending on order of operations. So it'll depend on the GM's ruling of order of operations.

So if it worked to give you 2.5x Str to all attacks in the past, it will work to give you 2.5x Str even now.

prototype00

El si stacko.

prototype00


Cevah wrote:

Found another...

Way of the Angry Bear 3: Bear Fisted Fighting
Discussion

/cevah

-_- I kind of wanted to post this myself once I was done updating the guide. Ah well.

prototype00


Tels wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
You can only charge as a standard action when you are limited to a standard action. When I say limited I mean "external forces". You choosing to take a standard action is not what is meant.

The feat, Rhino Charge, is a special exception.

Rhino Charge wrote:

Prerequisites: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, base attack bonus +5.

Benefit: You may ready a charge, though you may only move up to your speed on the charge.

Normal: Charging is a full-round action and allows you to move twice your speed.

Maybe Wraithstrike is replying to Cap. Darling and not myself?

prototype00


Just a Mort wrote:
Can the conqurer ooze kill everything in 1 shot, assuming no strongjaw up? Furious finish requires you to be able to rage cycle( and probably some way to regain rage). I think I ran the calcs before, you can't 1 hit everything cr appropriate unless buffed with strongjaw and using furious finish. Without either you cant? Assume a long long dungeon crawl...no way you're going to be able to have strongjaw up all the time.

Well, Strong Jaw is a big part of the calculation, yes. I would, for preference, save it for the big battles (you get to cast it around 2-3 times per day, at higher levels I would invest in a 4th level pearl of power).

You still can flurry of blows with a 7d8 slam though, so you're not completely helpless when it is not up.

prototype00


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cap. Darling wrote:

But Rastlov going before or after you is meta knowledge and it would not go in my game. No one take turns in Real battle.

And i still Think the Can only take a standard action criteria is fulfilled in a ready action.

Fair enough, Cap. Darling, we shall disagree as equals.Please enjoy your game then, as I will be sure to endeavour to enjoy mine.

Quote:
Don't forget Rhino Hide armor for the extra 2d6 damage.

Did not enter my considerations as I have Monk/Druid on the brain currently, but I'm sure it is useful for a lot of builds.

prototype00


You get extra attacks (like for rake on a charge) also, Horn of the Criosphinx and Janni Rush for double Strength bonus (x2.5 with Dragon Ferocity) and double Unarmed Strike damage both trigger on a charge.

prototype00


A charge is normally a full round action, as per the core rules. You can only charge as a Standard action if there is No Way for you to take a full round action. As a GM, of course you can make all the rule changes you like, but RAW, you are implementing the rules incorrectly.

As to readying the action, it could be "I know that Rastlov went right after me previously. This time, when I see him acting, I'll put my own plan into action to co-ordinate our efforts". There you go, no abstraction required.

Even the most Iron Fisted DMs should have no problem with that logic.

prototype00


So you take a Move action to move away, and ready (as a standard action) a charge (as allowed by the Rhino Charge feat). Then when your readied action triggers, you charge (and you can also move up to your speed as allowed by the feat) right up into your targets grill.

prototype00


After much work, I have finally completed the feats section. *reaches shakily for the coffee*.

prototype00

Scratch that, still have to do the Style feats *sigh* -_-


Why couldn't you ready "When the next person in the initiative order acts." Then you go right before the next person acts, which is still effectively your initiative? Or does that break the rules:

Quote:
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character.

The rules as I read them don't seem to specify "When next person in Initiative Order acts" (and it could be an ally, for sure), as a non valid triggering condition.

prototype00


So a lot of nice things trigger off charge. Rhino charge allows you to ready a charge (standard action).

Would it then be legal to:

1. Charge someone (maybe getting a full round attack thanks to pounce)
2. Next round, move away, either taking an attack of opportunity or tumbling
3. Ready a charge condition : "anyone acts"
4. Charge the same target again, full attack
5. Repeat next round.

Prototype00


Oterisk wrote:

I think it also might be good for you to hit on a few different classes. You need to take a look at the Brawler and the Hunter. The Feral Hunter gains wildshape, the Brawler gains extra feats you can just tack on a couple times a day for extra fun, and allows for a low Wis build (technically you could get by with a 12) and pick up light armor with the wild enchant on it at higher levels. The other thing I like about the brawler is the access to fighter feats. Weapon Versatility + Feral Combat Training is a wonderful feat for those that transform into anything with multiple natural weapons.

I've got a build that might be interesting for you. It takes a while to get going, but it's pretty cool.

Human Feral Hunter 2, Master of Many Styles 1, FH2, Dragon Disciple 4

1. Racial Heritage (Kobold), Scaled Disciple
3. Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon Style, Stunning Fist, Dragon Ferocity
4. Outflank
5. Shaping Focus
7. Weapon Focus (claw)
9. Feral Combat Training (claw)

From here you can take more monk or Dragon Disciple for Dragon Form if you like.

The Hunter Animal Focus ability is good, I've said as much in the Guide under the Feral Shifter Druid archetype description.

As for the Feral Hunter, it isn't bad. The spontaneous spellcasting to get into DD is an interesting trick, and this would be a pretty decent build. Personally I like some of the Higher level monk abilities (and defintely higher level monk unarmed strike).

I'll add in a portion in the Class section to talk about other classes like the Brawler or the Hunter when I'm done with the feats.

prototype00


Just a Mort wrote:

Would Cornugon smash and Hurtful feats be good for the Conqueror Ooze?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/hurtful-combat

Power Attack combined with Vital strike, make free intimidate check, and wail on the bad guy again. Problem is you cannot dump cha(or need to get intimidating prowess to make up for it). I think it is worth while since not many would survive 1 vital strike and 1 standard hit form the Conqueror Ooze. However it means the use of your swift actions, so no using of qinggong true strike.

I like your work btw :D

I like what Cornugon smash does, but Charisma is our dump stat so our Intimidate is never going to be very high. Its a good idea, but you have to take more feats (like the one that gives Str to intimidate) to make it work, and the FoF is already feat starved.

Besides the idea behind the Conqueror Ooze is to kill everything in 1 hit. ;)

Quote:

I've been considering a build somewhat like this and trying (for flavor reasons, as well as for strength boosts) to incorporate Mutagenic Mauler levels. Have you considered anything like that? I was thinking of a mix of monk and brawler in place of what would normally be occupied by monk levels, but the inability to use natural weapons with Brawler's Flurry really has me hesitating.

Also, excellent guide! This is one of my favorite character types, and I shall be watching eagerly for updates.

Imbicatus has the right of it. Lack of opposable thumbs and equipment in most forms to make mutagens also kind of sours it for me.

prototype00


Hi Everyone,

I have updated the guide with about half of the feats I was going to look at (there are too many Combat Feats, seriously). I'm pretty certain that I've missed some synergy or misgraded some feat here or there. If you do see something you think should be changed, let me know!

prototype00


thegreenteagamer wrote:
If the main thing you want is unarmed strike and shaping, why not use brawler instead of monk?

I'll address that later in the guide, suffice it to say, it isn't awful but for four points:

- Feral combat training doesn't work with Brawler's flurry (due to the wording of Feral Combat Training)
- None of the Brawler archetypes actually do anything for this build
- No Wisdom Synergy (which you'll need as a Druid anyway)
- No existing tricks to up unarmed damage (like Monk's robe, which doesn't work for Brawlers and Monastic legacy)

Avoron wrote:

Looks nice.

One thing: this FAQ lets an Eagle Shaman take the form of a Huge Roc with wild shape. While this might not be the best option, it lets you get a bite/talon/talon routine at level 6 with flight and grab, so I think it's definitely worth considering.

Ooh, that changes things, its about as good as the Lion Shaman then (flight vs rake). I'll update the guide.

prototype00


Hello Everyone! I have updated the Guide with my thoughts on the Druid and it's archetypes. The next section will be feats, then spells, then magic items and builds.

prototype00


Wildshape should allow you to qualify for Final Embrace (IIRC, you lose the benefits of the feat when you are not in Naga form).

prototype00


LN basically means that you have an internal code of conduct and you follow it to the letter.

I'd basically make up three tenets that represent this code and follow them obsessively.

For example my Strength Obsessed LN Monk(MoMS)/Druid(Saurian Shaman) has this:

1. There is strength in Nature, learn from it and respect it.
2. Your foes deserve your best, hold nothing back.
3. Those who teach you and those you teach are family, treat them as such.

So pretty easy to follow, quite different from the societal norm while still being an internal compass to guide actions.

prototype00


Heck, flavour your form however you like, as long as it grapples like a Naga, thats all that matters.

I'm working my way through the Druid section now, I've decided to replace Monk/Druid Multiclass in my guide with Fist of the Forest or FoF for short.

Rolls of the tongue better, I feel, no objections? (And thanks for the idea Efreeti.)

prototype00


Well, there's two basic routes.

1. Straight druid + Tetori ) with Shaping Focus to make up the 4 multiclassed Monk levels.
- Final Embrace Feat line to get double damage to constrict
- Normally, the best Wildshape forms don't get constrict (Allosaurus for example), so get an Anaconda Coils belt
- Kill things.

Cons: Belt is expensive and takes up +Str slot

2.Nagaji Naga Aspirant + Tetori
- Naga wildshape allows you to take the final embrace feat line without having constrict (it in fact gives you constrict)
- Lots of nice arcane Spells that are not normally

Cons: You don't get higher Wildshape forms and the Naga is only large.

The halfling Underfoot adept is mostly for tripping.

prototype00


lro wrote:
Interesting, trex with a katana you say? ;) Actually tried to make something similar myself a few years back, a hippotamus with crane style. Sadly that druid got crushed by his own snake before his prime. :p

... Is this some kind of sexual innuendo? If so, I shall have no part of it. ;)

Treemystic wrote:
This is very interesting, I have been wanting to make a grapple based character for a while but the damage has always been kind of low for me.

Was your grappler a pure monk or druid? What you basically want is Constrict at this point, and 12d8 or 8d8 unarmed strike damage with Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler which allows you to make 3 grapple checks per round which equates to potentially 72d8 or 48d8 damage (plus static mods).

boring7 wrote:
Are you saying we have the right to bear arms?

Ha! Better than the right to arm bears (or T-Rexs for that matter, Just say No, man.).

prototype00


Hello James,

Small query, and apologies if it has been asked in the past. I understand that adventurer demographics will vary from region to region, but what is the frequency of those of Adventuring Persuasion in Avistan and Tian Xia? (Is there a difference?)

Also what proportion of society would have PC class levels? Is it over 50%?

Thanks so much for the reply.

prototype00


4 people marked this as a favorite.

So as promised some months ago, I have started working on a guide to effectively multiclassing Druid and Monk to make the most scary Unarmed combatants in Pathfinder.

So far, I've covered the introduction and the Monk class and all the archetypes (whoo boy, that took longer than I thought it would).

The next step will be covering the Druid class and archetypes, then I'll move onto feats, magic items and probably three example builds (The Mauler, The Crusher and The Conqueror Ooze).

As always with my guides, I welcome your comments and suggestions.

prototype00


Hello Mark, hope you are having a good week.

A small question I wanted to ask concerning Feral Combat training, if I may?

So according to a recent faq, if you are a monk and you have feral combat training with a natural attack, you can apply your unarmed strike damage to the natural attack. I.e. if your unarmed strike damage was 1d8 and your claw damage was originally 1d4, and you had feral combat training (claw), your claw damage would become 1d8.

Now if you had Improved Natural Attack (Claw), would that 1d8 damage that the claw is now doing be adjusted to 2d6 as if you were one size larger as per the Improved Natural Attack feat description?

Thanks so much for the answer (whichever it might be).

prototype00


This thread is for brainstorming making the best Nimble Guardian for tearing things up with 4 claw attacks at 9th level at full BaB (with multiattack, that can be full BaB -2 + full iterative unarmed strike sequence.)

So Nimble Guardian is a pretty good Racial Monk Archetype for Catfolk, but they have really bad stats for it (mostly the -2 wisdom).

Fortunately, you can take Racial Heritage as a Human or a Half Orc (Half Elf too, but they don't really bring anything to the party.), and here at least you have a better stat arrangement.

Lets enumerate some basic build goals:
1. Feral Combat Training (Claws) which requires...
2. Weapon Focus (Claws)

So the problem here is that you can't take Weapon Focus (Claws) until you actually have functional claws. *Something Neither Humans or Half Orcs Have*, but Racial Heritage (Catfolk) allows you to take the Catfolk Exemplar feat and one of the options is to get two primary 1d4 claw attacks. Interesting.

So Humans can:
1. Pick Racial Heritage (Catfolk) and Catfolk Exemplar (Claws) at 1st level, pick up WF (Claws) at 3rd and Feral Combat Training at 5th. As a side benefit, two 1d4 + str attacks is probably better than your one unarmed strike at 1st level.

or

2.rock Dual Talent and delay all feats after Racial Heritage by 2 levels.

Half Orcs can take Toothy as a Racial trait and have a sweet three primary attack routine (but only from 3rd level, which is the earliest they can take Catfolk Exemplar). But it becomes slightly redundant at 7th level when you can turn into a Dire Tiger for an hour at a time.

Or they can take Sacred Tattoo, and with Fate's Favored thats +2 to all saves at 1st level, which coupled with monk saves is pretty good.

So what say you, Advice board? Good entry or best entry? (just kidding, if you know a better Nimble Guardian entry/build, please tell me, I'm not proud.)

prototype00


There is nothing in the rules as per RAW that it applies only to the 1st attack.

So if you are a druid with monk levels and feral combat training (Claw), and you Wildshaped into a dire tiger, Horn of the Criosphinx would add 2x your strength bonus to all your unarmed strikes + your four claw attacks that you made as secondary natural attacks while pouncing by RAW.

The Lance ruling only apples to the lance and mounted combat.

prototype00


... No offence to barbarians in general, but when you said they could fly, I was expecting slightly more than once per rage, up to base speed. That's pretty puny.

prototype00


Hmm, well, I put the question to Mark Seifter and he had this to say:

Quote:
It looks to me like nothing changed. Just as before, it still definitely doesn't forth with Dragon Style's increase to 1.5, and it may or may not work with Ferocity depending on order of operations. So it'll depend on the GM's ruling of order of operations.

So if it worked to give you 2.5x Str to all attacks in the past, it will work to give you 2.5x Str even now.

prototype00


ulgulanoth wrote:
James, what classes, other than the monk or brawler, would could make a mystical martial artist?

Sacred Fist Warpriest?

prototype00


Alternate universe twin, is that you?

prototype00

Edit: I get the feeling that Kazumetsa, for whatever reason doesn't want to roll druid/monk. Which is a shame, because I am wrecking face in exactly the same AP he is going to be playing in (Jade Regent IIRC) with a MoMS monk/ Saurian Shaman Druid.

Also I get to use the sickest Allosaurus "mini" for it as well.


How does this Lady square with Nalinivati who is the patron goddess of both Naga and Nagaji kind?

I wonder if being in constant pain makes her a romantic target of Zon Kuthon?

prototype00


I'm... not sure death from above applies. You have to be charging an enemy from higher ground (which isn't jumping) or from above while flying (which also isn't jumping).

If you have frequent access to airwalk, it is a cinch to activate, but otherwise, not so much.

prototype00


IIRC, the two bard builds that let you front line (ish) are the archaeologist with Fate's favored (and probably you can be a half orc with sacred tattoos and a jingasa of the fortunate soldier to really maximize the luck bonuses).

Or the Dawnflower Dervish, which basically grants himself insane bonuses due to bardic performances.

Drawback, both of these archetypes are incredibly selfish (buffing only affects you).

prototype00


Mark Seifter wrote:
prototype00 wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
prototype00 wrote:

Hi Mark,

Hmmm, so according to this faq, when you have a speed amulet of mighty fists, you don't get an extra natural attack with each natural attack you currently have.

Well and good.

What happens if you are using unarmed strikes and natural attacks in combination (natural attacks being secondary of course) with a speed amulet of mighty fist?

Would you receive one extra unarmed strike (the amulet adds one extra attack to your iterative sequence) and one extra natural attack (the amulet adds one extra attack to your natural attack sequence)?

prototype00

You can make one extra attack from the amulet total.

So this works differently from wielding two speed weapons, say? (Which would grant you two extra attacks, one for each weapon)

prototype00

The benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, according to the item description, so presumably that would include a second speed weapon.

Ah, that's a fair call.

Thanks for the time.

prototype00


So say you are under the effects of the air walk spell 50 feet up and someone trips you and you fall prone. Do you fall prone in place or plummet to the ground 50ft below?

Prototype00


Mark Seifter wrote:
prototype00 wrote:

Hi Mark,

Hmmm, so according to this faq, when you have a speed amulet of mighty fists, you don't get an extra natural attack with each natural attack you currently have.

Well and good.

What happens if you are using unarmed strikes and natural attacks in combination (natural attacks being secondary of course) with a speed amulet of mighty fist?

Would you receive one extra unarmed strike (the amulet adds one extra attack to your iterative sequence) and one extra natural attack (the amulet adds one extra attack to your natural attack sequence)?

prototype00

You can make one extra attack from the amulet total.

So this works differently from wielding two speed weapons, say? (Which would grant you two extra attacks, one for each weapon)

prototype00


Hi Mark,

Hmmm, so according to this faq, when you have a speed amulet of mighty fists, you don't get an extra natural attack with each natural attack you currently have.

Well and good.

What happens if you are using unarmed strikes and natural attacks in combination (natural attacks being secondary of course) with a speed amulet of mighty fist?

Would you receive one extra unarmed strike (the amulet adds one extra attack to your iterative sequence) and one extra natural attack (the amulet adds one extra attack to your natural attack sequence)?

prototype00


So druids can summon Cyclops as a 5th level SNA. These cyclops basically get to auto crit once a day (they have to confirm as usual).

Any druids carry around large size scythes for these guys to auto-crit with? If you can summon 3 with SNA 6, thats potentially quite some damage.(Then again they already use greataxes which are x3)

Its just a neat combo that I've heard mentioned but I've never actually seen someone do.

prototype00


1. First Do no Harm.
2. Treat the sick and the wounded in order of their severity, not their social standing.

Stuff like that?

prototyp00


Ah, right, so as before there is nothing at all in the rules to prevent them from stacking. Interesting.

prototype00


Hi Mark,

Sorry to be a bother, but just wanted to know if you had any thoughts on my horn of the Criosphnix question:

Quote:
A quick question, with the new faq about Dragon Style/Ferocity, how does dragon ferocity interact with Horn of the Criosphinx? Would it add 1/2 str to the existing now 2x Str?

Cheers!

prototype00


Not a monk/Druid I'm assuming? I know a thing or two about that build.


Are there 10 Five Storms high muckety mucks to kill in the AP? I think it was brought up before that there aren't enough Onis to provide for Suishen's full power-up.

prototype00


Mark Seifter wrote:
prototype00 wrote:

Sensei/Ninjas can cast invisibility on everyone...

prototype00

Yup, but others can do that. The awesome part about Sensei/Ninja is the swift action!

Awesome, but as you say, there has been controversy about which ki abilities the Sensei can pass to the party and which can't.

Perhaps it is a faq worth topic? (I personally err on the side that Sensei can share all ki abilities, but that is because I feel the Sensei deserves that little coolness factor at that level)

A quick question, with the new faq about Dragon Style/Ferocity, how does dragon ferocity interact with Horn of the Criosphinx? Would it add 1/2 str to the existing now 2x Str?

prototype00


You can wield a greatsword, did you know? Sure everyone calls it a Quaterstaff and it only does 1d6 damage, but wield it two handed and guess what, strength and a half (+3 for a 14 strength, +6 for an 18 strength).

Then cast Shillelagh, and suddenly its a +1 weapon, with a base damage of 2d6. (2d6+7 for those of you keeping track at home).

And if you happened to take the growth domain, well, the sky is the limit here (3d6 + 8 damage). Maybe splash for power attack? (3d6 + 11 damage)

All possible at 1st level.

prototype00

Edit: Ah, sorry, just saw that you wanted to control. Carry on.


Sensei/Ninjas can cast invisibility on everyone...

prototype00


As I mentioned before as to which part of this conversation held my interest, *and mostly because I'm not understanding the exchange between the two of you, never was great at mathematic progression* are you guys saying that a colossal 20th level monk won't get 12d8 damage on his unarmed strikes?

prototype00


Didn't your brawler get successfully grappled? Or am I not understanding something about your initial reply?

prototype00


Mark Seifter wrote:
As to your question, it is an interesting question to be sure. In my games, I would say that the weapon bonuses still don't apply, but then again, I've been on the receiving side of a giant monster's grapples enough times to know that the status quo is already on the grappler's side enough that I wouldn't want to push it even more in that direction (for instance, my poor brawler in the playtest for my two Occult Adventures classes has been grappled successfully numerous times despite my having spend significant character resources on bonuses to prevent grapples). If I didn't see the status quo in that way, your question is close enough to a toss-up for me that I could have seen myself answering...

I'd agree, except that it is mostly PC grapplers that have access to the tactics I mentioned above (enhancement bonuses/weapon focus and other gear based forms of grappling enhancement via weapon bonuses). It would, for example, have helped shore up your Ti's grapple check quite nicely, while it probably wouldn't have applied for a T-Rex attacking the party, say.

prototype00

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