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The Manyfaced One

prototype00's page

1,258 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Ah, that's a disappointment. Time to rewrite the guide...


Ah, well chalk that up to Herolab being a bit over-enthusiastic.

Oh yeah, Crane Style works... differently these days from when I first wrote a full build, but it is still worth taking for the Fighting defensively modifiers it gives (which in turn feeds into Osyluth Guile for very good AC).

prototype00


Hmm, with a requirement of Fighter 4 and Human, it wasn't super desirable for my already heavily multiclassed Monk/Druids.

prototype00


WagnerSika wrote:

I tried Nimble Guardian recently, started at level 7. I took the feats in bit different order and went catfolk as race for fun. With amulet of mighty fists +0 shock and Janni Rush and Dragon style/ferocity the amount of damage on a charge was ludicrous, 4d6+1d6+str*2 on one claw and str*1,5 on second claw plus 2d6+1d6+str on bite. Nearly one-shotted CR 7 creature. Fun times.

At level 9 add 2 more claws for even more damage. Get a mage or cleric to cast Greater magic weapon on your unarmed strikes and use it for your claws with feral combat training.

No lie, the Nimble Guardian is one of the best Monk Archetypes out there and the reason why I don't completely believe that Monks are totally shafted.

prototype00


The build with the highest single hit damage combined with Pathfinder's optional overpowered subsystem? I'm not surprised.

Is this personal experience? Did you one round tko Cthulhu?

Prototype00


Have dropped pummelling style and dependent feats to red since it now specifies unarmed strikes only.

Prototype00


I have updated the guide with my thoughts on the Nimble Guardian. I will probably take the opportunity on my vacation to upload one or two more builds.

Anything else I might have missed?

prototype00


Hmm, a druid with a Monk's Robe, that shapeshifts into a huge creature and casts Strong Jaw gets 4d8 unarmed strikes (which, ironically is greater than a 20th level monk damage).

prototype00


So you wouldn't be able to use power attack when you are polymorphed? Or finesse your natural attacks? Both of these are extraordinary abilities that require training too, by the rules. (The answer is of course not, there is nothing in the rules that prevents the Conqueror Ooze, the blind thing may suck, but that applies to all of the Cabe Druids wild shapes, so I think that may be editorial mistake.)


That you can be a paladin without choosing the Iroran Paladin archetype?

prototype00


Used to be ambiguous, due to a recent faq, is pretty clear cut they don't stack.

prototype00


This song and dance again? I don't know how people read devastating as 7 d 8, but RAW that racial ability is talking about the critical hit range.

Quite a few creatures do damage higher than their size would warrant, (the T-Rex for example) and nobody bats an eyelid about them.

prototype00


After the faqs about damage increases, I'm pretty sure that cloak of fangs, strong jaw and bestial aspect don't stack.

prototype00


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Lets use the proper terminology here, which should clear things up.

Beast Shape III is an Actual size increase. You are actually becoming a huge creature.

Strong Jaw is an Effective size increase, you deal damage As If you were two sizes larger...

According to this line in the faq:

Quote:
However, you can have one of each and they do work together (for example, enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield increasing your shield’s effective size by two steps, for a total of 2d6 damage).

They (as you so kindly provided the proper terminology for, Diego) Explicitly work together.

prototype00


You can become a huge Roc, so really, it is on par with Saurian and Lion these days.

prototype00


More like knees, elbows and headbutts I was thinking. You can claw and elbow can't you?


Wiggz wrote:
That's good advice - hadn't considered Power Attack via Quinggong. Does that satisfy the pre-req?

Yes, but apparently only when you activate power attack. For a build that will be using Rhino charge every round, I'd say pick up Power attack legit.

Quote:
Also, does a Warcat officially count as a feline for purposes of this build?

It is apparently a legit animal and has CAT in its name. I don't know what else you could ask for?

prototype00


So you can gain the use of several feats via Qinggong powers (via the Qinggong Monk Archetype or the new Unchained Monk). Do these feats count for pre-reqs for other feats (Power Attack qualifying you for Improved Bull Rush, say?)

prototype00


I hashed out a build, and it was mostly like yours except for the following:

1: I took Multiattack at 7th and Feral Combat trining at 5th. Janni Rush and Janni Style I took as bonus style feats so that I didn't have to bother about pre-reqs. (Dragon style and Janni Style are really enough to carry you in this build)

2: I picked up Power attack as a bonus Qinggong feat/power, using that to qualify for Improved Bull Rush and Rhino Charge at 12th level (had to leave Horn of the Criosphinx for 13th level), charging every round is really good for this character.

That said, well done on a streamlined and well made build.

prototype00


In PFS only characters of a specific race can take racial archetypes?

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qyn5?Racial-Heritage-Question-for-PFS#1

Thus making Racial Heritage not really work for the Human nimble guardian.

prototype00


Just take the "Catfolk Exemplar" feat (sub out Toughness for it), this grants you the Sharp Claws Racial Trait which gives you always on claws.

Warcat is the only huge feline out there, but it doesn't have rake attacks, so choose to be huge or to be large as a dire tiger with rake claws.

prototype00

Edit: Ever considered Improved Bull Rush/Rhino Charge? It lets you ready a charge (which you can pounce and full attack on, and proc Janni Strike).

So you:

1. Pounce at a target (full round action)
2. Next round, move away and ready a charge as a standard (activating condition: When my foe makes a move)
3: Foe goes, your charge activates before, you charge and full attack.
4. Next round, repeat steps 2 and 3.


Ed Reppert wrote:
prototype00 wrote:
Ed Reppert wrote:
Hm. I was wondering the other day about Paladins of Irori. ISTR reading somewhere that being neutral wrt good and evil, Irori doesn't much care about the good end of that spectrum. I don't remember whether I read it or just inferred it, but I came away from that with the impression that Irori does not support paladins. Also, I see no mention of paladins in Irori's entry in Inner Sea Gods or Faiths of Balance or Champions of Balance. OTOH I seem to remember a thread on the messageboards somewhere which asserted that Irori does support paladins. Besides, it would seem odd, at least, for a character to use "paladin of somebody else" to meet the paladinish requirements to become a champion of Irori. So what's the real skinny? Reference, please. "Of course Irori supports paladins" isn't much help. :-)

Just reference Paths of Prestige Under Champion of Irori. It specifically talks about a subset of Irori adherents that "focus on embodying and promulgating the virtues of hard work, discipline, and devotion to the cause of justice, truth, and he pursuit of perfection."

No need to refer to a random thread on the board, the answer is in the Prestige class description.

prototype00

Hm. Nothing in that necessarily says "paladin" to me.

... Not the Justice or Truth part? There are entire paladin concepts that revolve around one or the other.

But hey, who am I to say what you think a paladin should or should not do.

I just know by the book:

1. Irori's alignment does not bar paladins.
2. There is a prestige class that says that his paladins join.

And thus far, if you will excuse my bluntness, the only argument you have been able to provide is board hearsay.

Seriously, please drink the water, horse.

prototype00


Ed Reppert wrote:
Hm. I was wondering the other day about Paladins of Irori. ISTR reading somewhere that being neutral wrt good and evil, Irori doesn't much care about the good end of that spectrum. I don't remember whether I read it or just inferred it, but I came away from that with the impression that Irori does not support paladins. Also, I see no mention of paladins in Irori's entry in Inner Sea Gods or Faiths of Balance or Champions of Balance. OTOH I seem to remember a thread on the messageboards somewhere which asserted that Irori does support paladins. Besides, it would seem odd, at least, for a character to use "paladin of somebody else" to meet the paladinish requirements to become a champion of Irori. So what's the real skinny? Reference, please. "Of course Irori supports paladins" isn't much help. :-)

Just reference Paths of Prestige Under Champion of Irori. It specifically talks about a subset of Irori adherents that "focus on embodying and promulgating the virtues of hard work, discipline, and devotion to the cause of justice, truth, and he pursuit of perfection."

No need to refer to a random thread on the board, the answer is in the Prestige class description.

prototype00


2 people marked this as a favorite.
LazarX wrote:

Your guide is not worthy. Mainly because of the fact that you wrote it simply for one offside race. That's not even an open race for Pathfinder Society play.

A guide to a class needs to be written for all of the common races, but especially Humans. Writing it solely for one race because of it's munchkin advantages is simply lazy.

If you're not going to do broad racial coverage, then you should at least be writing your guide for Humans, with some notes given to other races.

A couple of things:

1. This is a build, as in a specific set of criteria coming together to make a character. It is showing the power of the Champion of Irori with the best combination possible.

2. I did make a guide, listing 16 different races. Its here.

Also "your guide is not worthy" I am trying to decide whether to be amused or annoyed at the undeserved trolling. A bit of both, I think.

prototype00


If you have pummeling style, there is a good arguement for keen to be put on the Amulet of Mighty Fists, if only to save you a feat.

prototype00


Better unarmed strike damage (Monastic Legacy requires Still Mind), the ability not to be knocked prone or moved from spot (requires lvl 4 Monk of the Sacred Mountains), Toughness (its a nice bonus feat for a 2nd level Monk of the Sacred Mountain).

Earth Elemental is all right, but I prefer the DR 10 of planar wildshape (requires animal form) to the DR 5 of Earth Elemental. Allosaurus also has better attack options (pounce/rake) than the Earth Elemental.

As far as buffing is concerned, best Druid spells (GMF, Strong Jaw) are in place by lvl 4 spells. No need to kill yourself for spells that aren't directly related to "Tankiness"

prototype00

P.s. BaB wise, the Mnk 4/ Druid 8 has exactly the same to hit as Druid 12 and a better to hit than Mnk 1/ Druid 11.


I'm partial to my basic Druid/Monk Split. At lvl 12 it works out to:

Druid 8 (Saurian Shaman/Lion Shaman) / Monk 4 (MoMS, Monk of the Sacred Mountain)

With Monastic Legacy, you hit as an 8th level Monk (1d10) and if you are wildshaped into something Huge, then it does a pretty decent 4d8 damage (8d8 if you are casting one of your two castings of Strong Jaw).

Planar Wildshape makes sure that you have continual DR 10 vs either good or evil (I'd choose good personally, as most of enemies aren't likely to have holy weapons unless something has gone off the rails)in animal form.

Lvl 4 Monk of the Sacred Mountain means you can't be moved or knocked prone, which is jolly useful as a Tank. (You have to remain in the same square, but with 15ft reach, this actually isn't much of a chore)

Stats would be like:

Versatile Human (Shapeshifted into Allosaurus):

Str 26 (+2 From lvl, +6 from WS)
Dex 6 (-4 from WS)
Con 14 (+1 from lvl)
Int 12
Wis 18
Cha 10

Feats would be:

Lvl 1: Improved Grapple (1st), Dragon Style (Monk Bonus)
Lvl 3: Weapon Focus (Claw) (3rd)
Lvl 5: Feral Combat Training (Claw) (5th)
Lvl 7: Natural Spell (7th)
Lvl 9: Planar Wild Shape (9th), Dragon Ferocity (Monk Bonus), Toughness (Monk Bonus)
Lvl 11: Monastic Legacy (11th)

Reasonably good at all levels. Has druid buffs and a decently leveled pet dinosaur.

prototype00


Per wildshape rules you lose the Ooze "Blind" ability. So, maybe? Maybe not?

prototype00


As voideternal says, you can't charge and vital strike at the same time.

An outcome of the new faq on standardizing increasing damage dice is that the 7d8 base of the carnivorous crystal actually becomes 16d6 with 2 size increases, not 14d8. (16d6 is roughly equivalent to 12d8).

So while the Conqueror Ooze is still the best DPR, it shares that slot with every other build to get 12d8 unarmed strike/natural attck damage.

Its advantage is it gets there quick, basically lvl 10 to be flurrying with 12d8 strikes, as opposed to the lvl 20 most other builds have to be.

Plus ca change...

prototype00


Your druid PC dreams of a beast rippling with scales, teeth and muscles. In their dream, they and the beast clash in almost euphoric violence, and they inevitably meet their end amidst slashing claws and crushing jaws.

In the waking world, everything looks so insignificant next to the life or death struggle taking place by night.

Will they be able to master their totem-monster before the primal beast masters them?

(Saurian Shaman in-character reasoning).

prototype00


MadKiefer wrote:

Heya @prootype00

Thanks again - sounds pretty awesome, however upon reading up on Wild Shape I realized I have to apply the new rules of "beast shape"

And beast shape does not say that you get the attacks of the animals you change into

Thread here for reference: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s8nh?Advice-please-Wild-Shape-Beast-Shape#4

Has this been taken into account in the guides?

May I direct you to the document covering Polymorph type spells of the Transmutation subschool and the pertinent line:

Quote:
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.

prototype00


MadKiefer wrote:
RegUS PatOff wrote:

i've very much enjoyed the guide and this thread. Thanks everyone for some well thought out build strategies.

On a side note, it looks like the warcat has a typo on it's Trample entry. Per standard trample rules entry, damage should be slam damage + 1 & 1/2 strength modifier. Trample for the war at lists as 2d8. Since there's no listed slam, its probably safe to adjust to 2d8+18.

Speaking of which: CR13 - what level of Shaman(Druid) would you need to shape into that freak of nature :3

6th for Lion Shamans, 8th for other Druids.

Quote:
Just made a thread for advice on a mauler and I wanted to ask if horn of the cryosphinx works on claws with feral combat training?
Quote:

Special: A monk can use this feat as long as he is wielding a two-handed weapon or both his hands are empty.

Note: A monk can take any of these feats as bonus feats at the indicated levels. To benefit from the feats, monks must have both hands free and capable of delivering an unarmed strike.

The scary thing here is that it doesn't seem the feat is limited to unarmed strikes, as long as both his hands are empty, claws, bites, and talons all benefit, RAW from Horn of the Criosphinx on a charge.

Interesting...

prototype00


MadKiefer wrote:

Equipment (currently):
-Claw Blades, Masterworked, +1
-Chain Shirt of Brawling +1

These Claw Blades will be useless for you when you wildshape. You want to make more natural attacks, not revert to making iterative attacks with a weapon (which is what claw blades give you)

The armor bonus from chain shirt of brawling will be equally scuttled until you get the wild property, but the brawling should remain. +2 is nice, so I'd keep those.

Quote:

Obviously I want to use my totem transformation to be my main use until I have wildshape (missing 1 level for that afaik).

Not even sure what would change when achieving wild shape to be honest.

What confuses me currently is the calculation of attacks from monk in synergy with the druid - if there are any at this point.
I have no enlarge yet at this point.

Spells:

0:Guidance
1: Magic Fang
2: Barkskin

You are a medium character. The Totem transformation does what it says on the tin. You cannot use the natural attacks from the totem transformation at full BaB if you use the claw blades.

When you reach character level 7, (Monk 1/ Lion Shaman 6) you can wildshape into a Huge Warbeast, mentioned upthread, which is proabably (though one can argue the 4 claws on a charge for the dire tiger might be equal) the best wildshape form you can take.

Quote:

In my reality so far, charge would only get me to use "grapple" once I reach the enemy, causing my "rake" to trigger.

Next round it would be what? One Unarmed strike from monk, 1 bite, 2 claws + rake (2 claws again)?

Yes, though your natural attacks are at huge penalties until you have Multiattack, if you want to take that unarmed monk strike.

prototype00


Evilserran wrote:
prototype00 wrote:

Well, there's two basic routes.

1. Straight druid + Tetori ) with Shaping Focus to make up the 4 multiclassed Monk levels.
- Final Embrace Feat line to get double damage to constrict
- Normally, the best Wildshape forms don't get constrict (Allosaurus for example), so get an Anaconda Coils belt
- Kill things.

Cons: Belt is expensive and takes up +Str slot

2.Nagaji Naga Aspirant + Tetori
- Naga wildshape allows you to take the final embrace feat line without having constrict (it in fact gives you constrict)
- Lots of nice arcane Spells that are not normally

Cons: You don't get higher Wildshape forms and the Naga is only large.

The halfling Underfoot adept is mostly for tripping.

prototype00

is this PFS legal? and viable? if so, can i get a level breakdown?

I'm not so sure about PFS legal as I don't play PFS and don't know about their rules and exceptions. Perhaps someone else will chime in?

On the level breakdown, I have been trying to make one, but run into the problem that the multiclass takes too long to mature (around lvl 15 or so, I think) since you want Greater and Rapid grapple as well as decent unarmed damage.

I'll see what I can do, but the mauler is probably the more PFS ready variant of the FoF.

Quote:

Heya folks.

I'm currently trying to build my Mauler with a Catfolk.
However I'm having a bit of trouble understanding how to calculate my amount of attacks and damage - especially when wildshaping (or using my totem).

Lion Shaman, btw - using tigers, though (RPG purposes, I'm from a Sabretooth Tribe).

If you want to can list my abilities etc. in the next post in detail.
Level is currently still low, Monk: 1 and Druid: 3

STR 16
DEX 16
CON 10
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 12

Your unarmed damage would be that of a first level Monk, 1d6. I recommend you two hand a quaterstaff and magic it up with Shillelagh.

prototype00


Ah my mistake, it has rend. Does rend deal claw damage?


Chris Rivers 682 wrote:
How do you manage dungeons? Being Huge could be a problem.

Most dungeons I've noticed in published adventures are built to accomodate at least large creatures (don't want to have a cave without a dragon in it, I suppose).

I have lamented that normal human sized doors are a druid's most dire nemesis in the past.

prototype00


Lune wrote:

prototype00: I got two bits for ya here.

1. We were having a discussion in another thread about magic items that can be used while polymorphed. An opinion was shared there by Skylancer4 that I haven't heard shared before. I thought that since wearing gear was fairly pivotal to your builds that you may wish to weigh in with your opinion on what types of gear are usable while Wild Shaped as it may help people here. [/url]

I'm no authority, really. I just wait for the faqs. The table variance on what you can get away with seems to be quite high, so I mostly just assume most things merge and armor bonuses don't function.

Quote:
2. Have you seen the Canopy Creeper? I ran an encounter with this thing against my party. I am thinking that the reach must be intended to not be what is written... otherwise, um... Combat Reflexes please!

Ooh, good find. 4 of the same attack (vine tendrils) would also work well with feral combat training (though how you would get weapon focus vine tendril before level 12 does put a damper on wildshaping.)

prototype00


... Four claws on a pounce, huge size, this kitty is better than the Allosaurus!

prototype00


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Congratulations and thanks for being there for us forumites.

prototype00


Having a bit of trouble with the Crusher build, not because it doesn't eventually become a combat monster, but it takes longer to bloom than the Mauler build, which I am getting the feeling people don't like.

How did the Mauler build go down though? What did people think?

prototype00


The Primal Mauler build is up with lvl-feat recommendations. By lvl 12, the character has reached a nice peak, so that should be satisfactory for society play.

I'll try to hash out a Crusher when I have a moment.

Thanks for the patience all of ya.

prototype00


I'll see if I can bust out a couple of builds this weekend. Sorry for the delay guys, life got busy and I wasn't able to get back to the guide.

prototype00


Hmmm, I don't actually have the book, but to my eye, it seems the Unchained monk probably makes a much better single class choice, but a much worse multi-class choice (which is unfortunately my preference, Monk/Druid multiclass).

On the other hand, I bet the new unchained monks make excellent Champions of Irori. Instead of going more levels in paladin, you can load up on Monk levels for extra ki abilities (powered by the CoI's channel-energy to ki alchemy). Am I right?

prototype00


If you want a clash of the titans kinda feel, you could go Monk/Druid (and choose the Goliath Druid subtype).

prototype00


As an interesting aside, the Conqueror Ooze's natural attack damage went from 14d8 to 16d6 with the newest faq, meaning 12d8 (which is roughly equivalent to 16d6) is now quite possibly a hard maximum.

Interesting.

prototype00


I actually really like the faq. Previously, the entire size/damage system was up for discussion and there was confusion about what stacked and what did not.

Now except for inevitable corner cases like shield spikes (which should get resolved soon to everyone's satisfaction, hopefully), it is much simpler. You have one actual size increase and one effective size increase and that is the limit of it. For those of you worried about damage, you can still get 12d8 damage per swing out of that, so I personally am not too broken up about it.

prototype00


Tels wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

And the latest #1 FAQ has been answered.

Quote:

Size increases and effective size increases: How does damage work if I have various effects that change my actual size, my effective size, and my damage dice?

As per the rules on size changes, size changes do not stack, so if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies. The same is true of effective size increases (which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language). They don’t stack with each other, just take the biggest one. However, you can have one of each and they do work together (for example, enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield increasing your shield’s effective size by two steps, for a total of 2d6 damage).
Without the mighty behemoth of the damage dice progression FAQ to protect them, these FAQs seem to have a short lifespan at the top nowadays. Will the fact that Light and Darkness is so complicated that it can't possibly be answered without a longer blog version like the poison FAQ allow it to rule the FAQs for a while, or will the freebooter reign supreme forevermore, since it isn't in the RPG line? Perhaps the freebooter will receive one more FAQ request and take over even if Light and Darkness has no answer? Find out more about this exciting rivalry on the next FAQ Friday!
Damn. I knew it would be ruled somewhat like this, but it still messes with some characters I've built. Namely my take on Captain Falcon.

I on the other hand heartily endorse this faq as it is how it has always made sense to me. Thank you, faq team!

I'm glad my 12d8 unarmed strike Monk/Druids and 14d8 Unarmed Strike Conqueror Ooze still work exactly as planned. :)

prototype00


Dragon Style says this:

Prerequisites: Str 15, Improved Unarmed Strike, Acrobatics 3 ranks.

Benefit: While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against sleep effects, paralysis effects, and stunning effects. You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw. You can also charge through squares that contain allies. Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.

And thus only applies to the first iterative.

Dragon Ferocity says this:

Benefit: While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus. When you score a critical hit or a successful Stunning Fist attempt against an opponent while using this style, that opponent is also shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1d4 + your Strength bonus.

And thus applies to all unarmed attacks.

Horn of the Criosphinx says this:

Prerequisite(s): Base attack bonus +6 or monk level 6th.

Benefit(s): Whenever you make a successful charge attack while wielding a two-handed weapon in both hands, add two times your Strength bonus to the damage roll.

Normal: A character wielding a two-handed weapon adds 1-1/2 times her Strength bonus to damage rolls.

Special: A monk can use this feat as long as he is wielding a two-handed weapon or both his hands are empty.

Note: A monk can take any of these feats as bonus feats at the indicated levels. To benefit from the feats, monks must have both hands free and capable of delivering an unarmed strike.

And doesn't specify that it only applies to the first attack. Where would you get that idea? If a monk got pounce from some other source (say, wildshape), he would get this benefit on all his unarmed strikes, would he not? Even sans pummeling style and just normal iteratives?

prototype00


Rambear wrote:

For pummeling style the order is as follows:

Make all attacks at normal bonus (for respective itteratives/flurry) - Roll normal damage for each hit, totalling them up - check for critical threat and confirm and increase damage (if applicable) - apply damage to monster (deducting damage according to DR)

Again, this is a normal way of resolving damage, except that the damage gets dealt after all results are totalled-up.

The damage is determined as a single attack for the purpose of...

So Ram, say a Warpriest (Sacred Fist)/Monk (MoMS) has janni style/rush, dragon style/ferocity, Pummeling Style/Rush and Horn of the Criosphinx, you'd be all right with them dealing:

2.5x Str damage on all attacks (Interaction between Criosphinx and dragon ferocity, ignoring the 1.5x str damage from dragon style)

2x unarmed strike damage on all attacks (Janni Rush wording,nothing specifies that it is only the 1st attack that benefits)

on a full attack that applies the combined damage vs DR (thanks to Pummeling Style/Pummeling Charge)?

Just checking to see if I have understood right.

prototype00


Yeah, Sorry I missed out on updating, I've gotten busy with a game recently and I haven't had the time.

Actually Ohako statted one out for me, Thanks Ohako!

prototype00

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