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A Goliath Druid can use compsognathus form to scout stealthily. Or pteranodon form to fly. Still lacks a tiny flying form, but it's not completely screwed on either front.
So as to keep the guide as simple as possible, I will opt not to cover 3rd party resources, if that is all right. I had thought the Goliath druid was Pathfinder core, but evidently not.
You probably want a level of Tetori Monk (for Improved Grapple for free), and then 3 levels of Naga Aspirant (so you can go Naga at 6th level with a pick of Shaping Focus at 5th level, delays Natural Spell to 7th level, however, ah well).
After you take your 4 levels of Naga Aspirant, revert to Monk for the next 5 levels to pick up Greater Grapple for free.
As to low level feats, it would be mostly the same combat feats that most monks druids will take (Weapon focus (Improved Unarmed Strike) etc, as you can effectively fight other opponents around you while grappling anyway. I actually don't have any specific advice for this, anyone else want to chime in? Grabbing style will be useful, but a high level pick.
By the by, thanks for the patience with the guide, I am enjoying my holiday so far, but there will be a stretch where I am on the road, so we'll see about putting a bit more in then.
Hey, I don't blame ya, I thought that was a bit of a stretch too, until this faq:
Monk 10 + Monk's Robe = 15 levels (2d6 damage) + Monastic Legacy (3 extra monk levels from 7 levels of Druid) = 2d8 damage
With Strong Jaw and Huge Wildshape, thats 8d8 damage, which isn't bad. You have to be lvl 20 for the 12d8 damage unfortunately.
Also, I would dispute prototype00s last statement. Behemoth Hippopotamus + Rageshaper (bestial aspect) + Improved Natural Attack + Strong Jaw + Cloak of Fangs. And, as an afterthought, Improved Vital Strike and Furious Finish.
Sure, but some differences between this and the druid:
1. The druid an stay in his form for the entire day, Polymorph and Beast Shape last for a minute per level
2. The Druid can cast his spells thanks to Natural spell (so versatility)
3. The druid can also do this trick, behemoth hippo is all right, but the carnivorous crystal is better.
So a 20th level monk does 2d10 unarmed strike damage (works out to 3d8 in damage progression terms). If you have feral combat training, your claws/slams/bite/whatever does that much damage now.
If you are a huge creature, your unarmed strike is also huge, so 6d8 damage.
If you can cast Strong Jaw, thats 2 more size increases, so 12d8 damage (which is incidentally what a 20th level Colossal Monk would be doing).
No weapon (except for the Carnivorous Crystal's slam attack) will do as much damage as that. And that is the source of the Druid/Monk's power.
Tetori, as the bonus feats and abilities are better.
Maneuver Master lets you tack on a maneuver for free onto a full attack, but if that maneuver is to grapple, you either lose the full attack, or you can't straight off pin (because you've used your standard action already during the full attack).
Its good, I personally prefer the max damage Greater Vital Strike damage with Furious Finish. 500ish damage in a single hit deals with DR quite effectively too, I find.
Emperor Point wrote:
This seems like an interesting character concept but doesn't sound like it would be great at low levels. Is there any advice for what you might do at low level?
Two hand a Shillelaghed Quaterstaff enlarged by the growth domain or cast enlarge person via the strength domain for 3d6 + 1 + 1.5xStr (I recommend 18 strength so 12?)
That's what I did.
I think you might have missed the Dragon Style feats in your actual feat section. Was this intentional? I know you actually comment on it in other places, but it's curiously missing from the feat section.
Ah, I must have missed that, embarrassing. I'll get to it when I need to take a break from Dragon Age.
That's easy! (Because I'm playing one.)
1 monk -> 6 levels of Druid (rush for that huge wildshape) -> 1 more level of Druid (For Strong Jaw) -> Any combination of Monk or Druid.
But I'll put the build in the guide.
Mark Seifter wrote:
Thanks very much for the reply, I do feel sorry for all the potential players who wanted to play the archetype but are automatically struck blind by its most iconic ability.
However the issue has been faq-ed enough on the forums that the Design Team will attend to it in due course, so I am content to wait upon that.
Hello Mark, Hope you enjoyed Turkey Day!
Just wanted to ask a quick question. Say a 10th level Druid with the Cave Druid archetype Wildshapes into an ooze as per their class ability:
A cave druid gains this ability at 6th level, except that her effective druid level for this ability is equal to her druid level –2. She cannot use wild shape to adopt a plant form. At 10th level, the cave druid can assume the form of a Small or Medium ooze as if using beast shape III, and at 12th level that of a Tiny or Large ooze as if using beast shape IV (treating the ooze as if it were a magical beast without a natural armor bonus). When in ooze form, the cave druid has no discernible anatomy and is immune to poison, sneak attacks, and critical hits.
Are they automatically blind because oozes have no eyes and they don't gain the Ooze's blindsight ability as per the Wildshape rules?
Thanks for the help,
Its not bad. Some of the spells I want as a druid I get as a lower level as a Hunter like Strong Jaw (but due to worse spellcasting progression, you get it at lvl 7, just the same as a druid).
Mostly the many good Druid archetypes are marginally better than the one Feral Hunter Hunter archetype.
Its a choice thing, really.
Would it be possible to write builds first and place them at the beginning of the guide?
To what end? Those who are new to this kind of build would like to see the basics laid out first, I feel. Also, traditionally, most guides have their builds after the exposition.
There are quite a few guides on both Monk and Druid, and all Druid guides follow Optimization Commandment №1.
For general optimization, sure. "Thou shalt not give up Caster Levels" is useful. For optimizing something specifically (in this case unarmed strike/natural attack damage), some sacrifices have to be made.
Also, I'll let you guys in on a secret. Best druid self buffing spells? You get by lvl 4 (Strong Jaw). A Druid/Monk can happily take 10 levels of druid (for Huge Elemental Wildshape with Shaping focus) and still not feel inferior to his more casterly brethren.
Of course for those of you who want 9th level spells, there is a build that gets that and 8d8 unarmed strike damage too, fret not.
For those of you who are looking forward to the builds, I'll get to them after I finish up with the feats and magic items. I have a couple in mind, worry not. (I've been making this kind of character since the 3rd edition days, after all)
I'm definitely interested in more info about why not brawler...martial flexibility is awesome, full BAB from the get go for all situations (not just when flurrying or using CMB/D) is very nice, and the ability to wear armor for those levels before you actually shift adds some serious versatility.
Your points are valid. Most of the work I have done has been on Monks, Brawlers have only been out a couple of months. The wisdom synergy as you said is a big one. Also, Brawler archetypes are, from what I can see, apart from the Mutagenic Mauler (and that one has its own problems) not synergistic with shifting at all. (Nothing stands out like the MoMS or the Maneuver Master).
Also, the lack of Monastic Legacy is a bit rankling for a multi-classed unarmed character.
As I said previously, I will touch on the Brawler in the guide after I am done with feats and skills.
Secret Wizard wrote:
El si stacko.
Maybe Wraithstrike is replying to Cap. Darling and not myself?
Just a Mort wrote:
Can the conqurer ooze kill everything in 1 shot, assuming no strongjaw up? Furious finish requires you to be able to rage cycle( and probably some way to regain rage). I think I ran the calcs before, you can't 1 hit everything cr appropriate unless buffed with strongjaw and using furious finish. Without either you cant? Assume a long long dungeon crawl...no way you're going to be able to have strongjaw up all the time.
Well, Strong Jaw is a big part of the calculation, yes. I would, for preference, save it for the big battles (you get to cast it around 2-3 times per day, at higher levels I would invest in a 4th level pearl of power).
You still can flurry of blows with a 7d8 slam though, so you're not completely helpless when it is not up.
Cap. Darling wrote:
Fair enough, Cap. Darling, we shall disagree as equals.Please enjoy your game then, as I will be sure to endeavour to enjoy mine.
Don't forget Rhino Hide armor for the extra 2d6 damage.
Did not enter my considerations as I have Monk/Druid on the brain currently, but I'm sure it is useful for a lot of builds.
A charge is normally a full round action, as per the core rules. You can only charge as a Standard action if there is No Way for you to take a full round action. As a GM, of course you can make all the rule changes you like, but RAW, you are implementing the rules incorrectly.
As to readying the action, it could be "I know that Rastlov went right after me previously. This time, when I see him acting, I'll put my own plan into action to co-ordinate our efforts". There you go, no abstraction required.
Even the most Iron Fisted DMs should have no problem with that logic.
Why couldn't you ready "When the next person in the initiative order acts." Then you go right before the next person acts, which is still effectively your initiative? Or does that break the rules:
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character.
The rules as I read them don't seem to specify "When next person in Initiative Order acts" (and it could be an ally, for sure), as a non valid triggering condition.
So a lot of nice things trigger off charge. Rhino charge allows you to ready a charge (standard action).
Would it then be legal to:
1. Charge someone (maybe getting a full round attack thanks to pounce)
The Hunter Animal Focus ability is good, I've said as much in the Guide under the Feral Shifter Druid archetype description.
As for the Feral Hunter, it isn't bad. The spontaneous spellcasting to get into DD is an interesting trick, and this would be a pretty decent build. Personally I like some of the Higher level monk abilities (and defintely higher level monk unarmed strike).
I'll add in a portion in the Class section to talk about other classes like the Brawler or the Hunter when I'm done with the feats.
Just a Mort wrote:
I like what Cornugon smash does, but Charisma is our dump stat so our Intimidate is never going to be very high. Its a good idea, but you have to take more feats (like the one that gives Str to intimidate) to make it work, and the FoF is already feat starved.
Besides the idea behind the Conqueror Ooze is to kill everything in 1 hit. ;)
Imbicatus has the right of it. Lack of opposable thumbs and equipment in most forms to make mutagens also kind of sours it for me.
I have updated the guide with about half of the feats I was going to look at (there are too many Combat Feats, seriously). I'm pretty certain that I've missed some synergy or misgraded some feat here or there. If you do see something you think should be changed, let me know!
If the main thing you want is unarmed strike and shaping, why not use brawler instead of monk?
I'll address that later in the guide, suffice it to say, it isn't awful but for four points:
- Feral combat training doesn't work with Brawler's flurry (due to the wording of Feral Combat Training)
Ooh, that changes things, its about as good as the Lion Shaman then (flight vs rake). I'll update the guide.
LN basically means that you have an internal code of conduct and you follow it to the letter.
I'd basically make up three tenets that represent this code and follow them obsessively.
For example my Strength Obsessed LN Monk(MoMS)/Druid(Saurian Shaman) has this:
1. There is strength in Nature, learn from it and respect it.
So pretty easy to follow, quite different from the societal norm while still being an internal compass to guide actions.
Heck, flavour your form however you like, as long as it grapples like a Naga, thats all that matters.
I'm working my way through the Druid section now, I've decided to replace Monk/Druid Multiclass in my guide with Fist of the Forest or FoF for short.
Rolls of the tongue better, I feel, no objections? (And thanks for the idea Efreeti.)
Well, there's two basic routes.
1. Straight druid + Tetori ) with Shaping Focus to make up the 4 multiclassed Monk levels.
Cons: Belt is expensive and takes up +Str slot
2.Nagaji Naga Aspirant + Tetori
Cons: You don't get higher Wildshape forms and the Naga is only large.
The halfling Underfoot adept is mostly for tripping.
Interesting, trex with a katana you say? ;) Actually tried to make something similar myself a few years back, a hippotamus with crane style. Sadly that druid got crushed by his own snake before his prime. :p
... Is this some kind of sexual innuendo? If so, I shall have no part of it. ;)
This is very interesting, I have been wanting to make a grapple based character for a while but the damage has always been kind of low for me.
Was your grappler a pure monk or druid? What you basically want is Constrict at this point, and 12d8 or 8d8 unarmed strike damage with Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler which allows you to make 3 grapple checks per round which equates to potentially 72d8 or 48d8 damage (plus static mods).
Are you saying we have the right to bear arms?
Ha! Better than the right to arm bears (or T-Rexs for that matter, Just say No, man.).
Small query, and apologies if it has been asked in the past. I understand that adventurer demographics will vary from region to region, but what is the frequency of those of Adventuring Persuasion in Avistan and Tian Xia? (Is there a difference?)
Also what proportion of society would have PC class levels? Is it over 50%?
Thanks so much for the reply.
So as promised some months ago, I have started working on a guide to effectively multiclassing Druid and Monk to make the most scary Unarmed combatants in Pathfinder.
So far, I've covered the introduction and the Monk class and all the archetypes (whoo boy, that took longer than I thought it would).
The next step will be covering the Druid class and archetypes, then I'll move onto feats, magic items and probably three example builds (The Mauler, The Crusher and The Conqueror Ooze).
As always with my guides, I welcome your comments and suggestions.
Hello Mark, hope you are having a good week.
A small question I wanted to ask concerning Feral Combat training, if I may?
So according to a recent faq, if you are a monk and you have feral combat training with a natural attack, you can apply your unarmed strike damage to the natural attack. I.e. if your unarmed strike damage was 1d8 and your claw damage was originally 1d4, and you had feral combat training (claw), your claw damage would become 1d8.
Now if you had Improved Natural Attack (Claw), would that 1d8 damage that the claw is now doing be adjusted to 2d6 as if you were one size larger as per the Improved Natural Attack feat description?
Thanks so much for the answer (whichever it might be).
This thread is for brainstorming making the best Nimble Guardian for tearing things up with 4 claw attacks at 9th level at full BaB (with multiattack, that can be full BaB -2 + full iterative unarmed strike sequence.)
So Nimble Guardian is a pretty good Racial Monk Archetype for Catfolk, but they have really bad stats for it (mostly the -2 wisdom).
Fortunately, you can take Racial Heritage as a Human or a Half Orc (Half Elf too, but they don't really bring anything to the party.), and here at least you have a better stat arrangement.
Lets enumerate some basic build goals:
So the problem here is that you can't take Weapon Focus (Claws) until you actually have functional claws. *Something Neither Humans or Half Orcs Have*, but Racial Heritage (Catfolk) allows you to take the Catfolk Exemplar feat and one of the options is to get two primary 1d4 claw attacks. Interesting.
So Humans can:
2.rock Dual Talent and delay all feats after Racial Heritage by 2 levels.
Half Orcs can take Toothy as a Racial trait and have a sweet three primary attack routine (but only from 3rd level, which is the earliest they can take Catfolk Exemplar). But it becomes slightly redundant at 7th level when you can turn into a Dire Tiger for an hour at a time.
Or they can take Sacred Tattoo, and with Fate's Favored thats +2 to all saves at 1st level, which coupled with monk saves is pretty good.
So what say you, Advice board? Good entry or best entry? (just kidding, if you know a better Nimble Guardian entry/build, please tell me, I'm not proud.)