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The Manyfaced One

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prototype00


Having a bit of trouble with the Crusher build, not because it doesn't eventually become a combat monster, but it takes longer to bloom than the Mauler build, which I am getting the feeling people don't like.

How did the Mauler build go down though? What did people think?

prototype00


The Primal Mauler build is up with lvl-feat recommendations. By lvl 12, the character has reached a nice peak, so that should be satisfactory for society play.

I'll try to hash out a Crusher when I have a moment.

Thanks for the patience all of ya.

prototype00


I'll see if I can bust out a couple of builds this weekend. Sorry for the delay guys, life got busy and I wasn't able to get back to the guide.

prototype00


Hmmm, I don't actually have the book, but to my eye, it seems the Unchained monk probably makes a much better single class choice, but a much worse multi-class choice (which is unfortunately my preference, Monk/Druid multiclass).

On the other hand, I bet the new unchained monks make excellent Champions of Irori. Instead of going more levels in paladin, you can load up on Monk levels for extra ki abilities (powered by the CoI's channel-energy to ki alchemy). Am I right?

prototype00


If you want a clash of the titans kinda feel, you could go Monk/Druid (and choose the Goliath Druid subtype).

prototype00


As an interesting aside, the Conqueror Ooze's natural attack damage went from 14d8 to 16d6 with the newest faq, meaning 12d8 (which is roughly equivalent to 16d6) is now quite possibly a hard maximum.

Interesting.

prototype00


I actually really like the faq. Previously, the entire size/damage system was up for discussion and there was confusion about what stacked and what did not.

Now except for inevitable corner cases like shield spikes (which should get resolved soon to everyone's satisfaction, hopefully), it is much simpler. You have one actual size increase and one effective size increase and that is the limit of it. For those of you worried about damage, you can still get 12d8 damage per swing out of that, so I personally am not too broken up about it.

prototype00


Tels wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

And the latest #1 FAQ has been answered.

Quote:

Size increases and effective size increases: How does damage work if I have various effects that change my actual size, my effective size, and my damage dice?

As per the rules on size changes, size changes do not stack, so if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies. The same is true of effective size increases (which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language). They don’t stack with each other, just take the biggest one. However, you can have one of each and they do work together (for example, enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield increasing your shield’s effective size by two steps, for a total of 2d6 damage).
Without the mighty behemoth of the damage dice progression FAQ to protect them, these FAQs seem to have a short lifespan at the top nowadays. Will the fact that Light and Darkness is so complicated that it can't possibly be answered without a longer blog version like the poison FAQ allow it to rule the FAQs for a while, or will the freebooter reign supreme forevermore, since it isn't in the RPG line? Perhaps the freebooter will receive one more FAQ request and take over even if Light and Darkness has no answer? Find out more about this exciting rivalry on the next FAQ Friday!
Damn. I knew it would be ruled somewhat like this, but it still messes with some characters I've built. Namely my take on Captain Falcon.

I on the other hand heartily endorse this faq as it is how it has always made sense to me. Thank you, faq team!

I'm glad my 12d8 unarmed strike Monk/Druids and 14d8 Unarmed Strike Conqueror Ooze still work exactly as planned. :)

prototype00


Dragon Style says this:

Prerequisites: Str 15, Improved Unarmed Strike, Acrobatics 3 ranks.

Benefit: While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against sleep effects, paralysis effects, and stunning effects. You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw. You can also charge through squares that contain allies. Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.

And thus only applies to the first iterative.

Dragon Ferocity says this:

Benefit: While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus. When you score a critical hit or a successful Stunning Fist attempt against an opponent while using this style, that opponent is also shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1d4 + your Strength bonus.

And thus applies to all unarmed attacks.

Horn of the Criosphinx says this:

Prerequisite(s): Base attack bonus +6 or monk level 6th.

Benefit(s): Whenever you make a successful charge attack while wielding a two-handed weapon in both hands, add two times your Strength bonus to the damage roll.

Normal: A character wielding a two-handed weapon adds 1-1/2 times her Strength bonus to damage rolls.

Special: A monk can use this feat as long as he is wielding a two-handed weapon or both his hands are empty.

Note: A monk can take any of these feats as bonus feats at the indicated levels. To benefit from the feats, monks must have both hands free and capable of delivering an unarmed strike.

And doesn't specify that it only applies to the first attack. Where would you get that idea? If a monk got pounce from some other source (say, wildshape), he would get this benefit on all his unarmed strikes, would he not? Even sans pummeling style and just normal iteratives?

prototype00


Rambear wrote:

For pummeling style the order is as follows:

Make all attacks at normal bonus (for respective itteratives/flurry) - Roll normal damage for each hit, totalling them up - check for critical threat and confirm and increase damage (if applicable) - apply damage to monster (deducting damage according to DR)

Again, this is a normal way of resolving damage, except that the damage gets dealt after all results are totalled-up.

The damage is determined as a single attack for the purpose of...

So Ram, say a Warpriest (Sacred Fist)/Monk (MoMS) has janni style/rush, dragon style/ferocity, Pummeling Style/Rush and Horn of the Criosphinx, you'd be all right with them dealing:

2.5x Str damage on all attacks (Interaction between Criosphinx and dragon ferocity, ignoring the 1.5x str damage from dragon style)

2x unarmed strike damage on all attacks (Janni Rush wording,nothing specifies that it is only the 1st attack that benefits)

on a full attack that applies the combined damage vs DR (thanks to Pummeling Style/Pummeling Charge)?

Just checking to see if I have understood right.

prototype00


Yeah, Sorry I missed out on updating, I've gotten busy with a game recently and I haven't had the time.

Actually Ohako statted one out for me, Thanks Ohako!

prototype00


Pounce an be gotten as a Kitsune with vulpine pounce (useable less regularly than regular pounce, possibly).

prototype00


As a feat pick that you have to be minimum 16th level to take? Sure, that seems reasonable and balanced to be able to take 3 swift action full attacks / day.

prototype00


It advances the lay on hands amounts, but not the number of times you can do it.

prototype00


You get wildshape up to 4th level (so medium or small animals), from 6th level onwards, the only thing you advance is the Naga Shape (so no large or huge animals, plants or elementals).

prototype00


You can get Arcane Strike with the True Strike Spell like ability from the Qinggong Monk.

No huge felines, 9th level Nimble guardian is for Rake, which grants you two extra Claws on a pounce.

Its not the powerhouse a Monk/Druid is, but you get to play one of the most powerful Single Classed Monks out there.

prototype00


Query, Mark.

For the Naga Aspirant Druid Archetype, which gets this ability:

Quote:

At 6th level, the naga aspirant can use her wild shape ability (gained at 4th level, as normal) to assume the form of a true naga. This effect functions in a similar manner to a shapechange spell with the following exception. The druid's true naga form is unique, representing her personal evolution. When taking naga form, the nagaji's body transforms into that of a large serpent, though she keeps her own head. The naga aspirant loses her limbs and her size increases by one category, granting her a +4 size bonus to Strength and Constitution, a –2 penalty to Dexterity, and a +2 enhancement bonus to her natural armor bonus. She gains a +10 enhancement bonus to land speed and a bite attack that deals 1d6 points of damage. She can cast verbal spells in this form, but cannot cast spells with other components without metamagic or feats such as Natural Spell.

This ability otherwise works like and replaces wild shape.

Does the Druid's wildshape ability progress past this point (i.e. do they gain huge animal wildshape?)

Cheers!

prototype00


Lets start with what you want your character to do, pouncing and full attacks or crushing things to death? Once you know this, you can answer how to build them. (Archetype and feat choice is heavily dependent on this).

prototype00


... 20th level monk damage is 2d10. Its what I based all my calculations on.

Also the monk gets to full attack at the end of a charge, thanks to stuff like pummeling charge or pounce (in Allosaurus form).

Also if I am not mistaken, the value for powerful charge (4d10 in the case of the Tricerotops) is the amount of damage that you deal on a charge, and is not added to the base 2d10 damage.

So yes, I think my monk does a lot better (potentially 5x12d8 attacks versus a single 4d10 attack on a charge) but takes longer to get there.

prototype00

Ah, you could do a single 12d8 gore on a charge as a Tricerotops with Strong Jaw on, thats not bad.

prototype00


Base unarmed damage 2d10 (counts as 3d8) -> Huge Sized 6d8 -> Strong Jaw 12d8.

prototype00


So say I summon a snake (as a 2nd level spell), what will be the DC of its poison? As listed in the monster manual? Or 10+ level of spell + relevant spellcasting modifier of the caster?

Cheers!

prototype00


To Chaosguy, If you are going lion shaman, then you are going to have to be happy with 6d8 at most as there aren't any huge cats. Only Dinos have huge pouncers.

To Derek, Wildshapes lasts for hours per level, Natural spell allows you to cast during wildshape. With 2 Wildshapes at 8th level, for example, you can be in wildshape for 16 hours per day, which is basically all the time.


So just a dip in monk?

Your unarmed strike damage isn't going to be stellar, but if you're all right with that, then thats fine (3 monk/17 druid will also net you 9th level casting and throw in 8d8 unarmed damage because you now can pick Monastic Legacy).

prototype00


No, on account of wildshape being a Transmutation (Polymorph) effect and thus not allowing other spells that change size to take effect:

Quote:
In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

prototye00


Well, your best friends here are:

1. The Monk Unarmed Damage Progression (and things that advance it, like a Monk's Robe or Monastic Legacy)

and

2. Things that increase size (I posit that you can get one "actual" size increase and one "virtual" size increase, as the virtual size increases are all based on your current size and don't seem to stack, another reason I am not in favor of INA).

So around level 10, if you have a Monk's robe and 3 levels of Monk, thats 1d10 unarmed strike damage.

With huge wildshape and Strong Jaw running, thats 6d8 damage. Thats probably good damage for 10th level.

If you can swing Janni Rush, that becomes 12d8 on a charge.

By lvl 20, you hav 12d8 on an unarmed strike and 24d8 on a charge with Janni Rush. Without grappling and constrict, this is probably the upperlimit.

(Or you could have the 56d8 maximized of the conqueror ooze, but that is only for one attack - in that case, the list is Furious Finish and Greater Vital Strike working on a 7d8 base damage natural attack slam).

prototype00


Derek the Ferret wrote:
Hey, Prototype00, do you have an estimate for when the sample builds are going to be up? I really wanna see some cause this guide is awesome.

Recently switched computers, so slowly transferring stuff over, including the guide and related materials. Sorry about the delay. I'm happy to answer questions in the meantime, but the update might take up till the end of January (as work has picked up).

prototype00


Hmm, but you lose out on the Scout archetype ability to proc sap master every round.

prototye00


Nope in my understanding, as you can't target it (no line of sight).

Prototype00


Gregory Connolly wrote:

I like the guide.

I would like to see an updated version of the guide that has builds in it. To me the rest of a guide is fluff and the builds are crunch. Your guide is very entertaining, but I haven't actually learned anything.

Sorry about that, was having way too much fun over my vacation. When things have settled down and I have transferred everything to my new rig, I'll post a next version of the guide with builds.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
It seems prototype00 has reversed himself over the months. It would be interesting to hear about how the author of this...

Well, as I've said, the current face of rules arbritration (Mark Seifter, who presides over faq Friday) has given me his opinion (not an official rules judgement, mind), and I really don't feel like continually swimming against the current on this one. Simple as that.

If I get confirmation from a higher source (like say a faq), I will be more than happy to change it, in the meantime, I would like to keep things simple and straightforward.

Quote:
Let me get this straight - say you do the underfoot adept/maneuver master build and wildshaped into a huge elemental. If you have the feral combat training feat, can you do your free maneuver master move or two, full attack, and then do the two slams at unarmed strike damage as well (which are...primary attacks so full bab and full str bonus right?) since it isn't a flurry of blows?

Yes, with the caveat that your natural attacks are considered secondary natural attacks, so that is -5 to hit and 1/2 str bonus (or -2 to hit with Multiattack) in a full attack with your unarmed strike.

prototype00


Ah, my mistake, I thought it gave the same bonuses as the Earth Elemental Form. Still pretty good for Dex based builds (and even better for Fury's Fall I suppose).

prototype00


Covert Operator wrote:
I noticed you set chokehold to red, but there is a hidden beauty to it: the target is silenced. That means no verbal spells!

You could also just pin them. First thing I'd do really.

On the INA issue, feel free to faq it in the thread, but possibly a new thread would be more visible?

Kastar makes my stance (such that it is, I personally feel it wouldn't be awful to let INA work the other way, as Strong Jaw is what really powers the build and works in any instance) quite clear, which is what I also believe most of the rules queries I have made (I recall one to JJ and one to Mark Seifter) have been answered.

I cannot in good conscience recommend something to players on the basis that some DMs who haven't asked the question of Mark Seifter might let it fly. Better to stand on surer ground.

prototype00


Ah, just checked, you don't really need knowlege Nature, so everything into Knowledge Planes then?

prototype00


Well, its Gestalt, so you're probably decent? Take Natural Spell at 5th and Planar Wildshape at 7th and hope for the best? (Start putting points in Knowledge Planes and Knowledge Nature).

prototype00


Mickey Carver wrote:

So, this character was made before I found this guide.

He is in a gestalt game where you get two classes and by chance I chose monk and druid, not knowing the possibilities.
I've found him rather unsatisfying. And I know it's the character because the game is great.
He is monk of the four winds and Ape shaman.(again before I saw the guide)
Part of the problem is that he had a gorilla animal companion that he was overprotective of and therefore missed out on combat power with.
I recently asked the DM allowance to trade the animal companion for the strength(ferocity) domain.
His feats, bonus or otherwise, are:
Improved unarmed
Elemental fist
Scorpion style
Bleeding attack
Dodge

How do you suggest making him better? Next is level 3, so he'll be getting a feat then.

So you chose all the worst options (or at least no good to great ones, Scorpion Style is...unfortunate... to say the least) and you want me to make the character better? I guess, follow the guide from now on? There isn't really anything more I can say to help you.

Did you have anything specific you wanted to do? You might have to make a new character to do so but I can help with that.

prototype00


As far as I understand it, and I am in no way claiming to have all the answers here:

Fist of the Forest:

Unarmed Strike = X
Size increase bonus to unarmed strike damage = 2X
FCT means natural attack = Unarmed Strike Damage = 2X

Natural Attack = X
Unarmed Strike = Y
Improved Natural Attack = 2X
FCT = Unarmed Strike Damage = Y (and not 2Y)

Not that I agree, but I see the logic, I guess.

If you say one thing, and other forumers say another and the current rules guy in residence agrees with them, there is not really much I can say.

prototype00


Mark Seifter of the design team had this to say to my question:

Quote:

Hello Mark, hope you are having a good week.

A small question I wanted to ask concerning Feral Combat training, if I may?

So according to a recent faq, if you are a monk and you have feral combat training with a natural attack, you can apply your unarmed strike damage to the natural attack. I.e. if your unarmed strike damage was 1d8 and your claw damage was originally 1d4, and you had feral combat training (claw), your claw damage would become 1d8.

Now if you had Improved Natural Attack (Claw), would that 1d8 damage that the claw is now doing be adjusted to 2d6 as if you were one size larger as per the Improved Natural Attack feat description?

Thanks so much for the answer (whichever it might be).

prototype00

Quote:
Since you're replacing with the unarmed damage, I would think it wouldn't help.

Since I'd rather deal in more sure ways to power, rather than tricks DMs might outlaw, I elected to give it the grade I did. If it does work, great, faq it quick, please.

prototype00


Lune wrote:
prototype00 wrote:
...as you can effectively fight other opponents around you while grappling anyway.
Is that actually true? I have to admit that despite the simplification Pathfinder brought to the grappling rules that it still remains one of the most complicated sections of the rules. I could have totally mistaken the grappling rules. How is this accomplished?

I was mostly going off this:

Quote:
At 4th level, he suffers no penalties on attack rolls, can make attacks of opportunity while grappling, and retains his Dexterity bonus to AC when pinning an opponent or when grappled.

Of course you're going to want rapid grapple to fully utilize this.

Good build Kastar, unfortunately I don't think that Brawlers can use their Natural Attacks with Brawler's flurry due to the wording of FCT.

prototype00


Ah, thats pretty good then. It probably goes on the same tier as Saurian Shaman due to you being able to miss out on Natural spell (eventually, you can retrain it or something).

prototype00


Deadmanwalking wrote:
A Goliath Druid can use compsognathus form to scout stealthily. Or pteranodon form to fly. Still lacks a tiny flying form, but it's not completely screwed on either front.

So as to keep the guide as simple as possible, I will opt not to cover 3rd party resources, if that is all right. I had thought the Goliath druid was Pathfinder core, but evidently not.

Quote:

Inspired by this guide i actually decided to create a Nagaji Druid Fist of Fury!

However my character is joining the campaign at level 4 and so doesn't have all of its stuff. At first i thought i would take straight druid to have wild shape straight away but that doesn't actually seem to make me very tough, would it be smarter to go 2 in Druid, 2 in Tetori Monk then return to druid after that? Also what feats should i take at low level?

You probably want a level of Tetori Monk (for Improved Grapple for free), and then 3 levels of Naga Aspirant (so you can go Naga at 6th level with a pick of Shaping Focus at 5th level, delays Natural Spell to 7th level, however, ah well).

After you take your 4 levels of Naga Aspirant, revert to Monk for the next 5 levels to pick up Greater Grapple for free.

As to low level feats, it would be mostly the same combat feats that most monks druids will take (Weapon focus (Improved Unarmed Strike) etc, as you can effectively fight other opponents around you while grappling anyway. I actually don't have any specific advice for this, anyone else want to chime in? Grabbing style will be useful, but a high level pick.

By the by, thanks for the patience with the guide, I am enjoying my holiday so far, but there will be a stretch where I am on the road, so we'll see about putting a bit more in then.

prototype00


pathfinderOGC, right? They don't have the rights to official Pathfinder god names, so they sub in stuff. Bronze Gong is Irori's specific channel foci, it would be strange if his worshippers couldn't use it.

prototype00


Ooh, I'll check it out. Sorry the guide has been slow, DA:I has been claiming the lions share of my time.


Stir wrote:


Yeah, pretty broken. Probable nerf-bait?

Eh, I don't know. They faq-ed it less than a year ago. They obviously thought the Feral Combat Training feat wasn't good enough.

prototype00


Stir wrote:


Wow, lotsa very interesting ideas!

But (there's always a but) I'm a little uncomfortable with your take on Feral Combat Training:

'treat all of them as your Unarmed Strike with regard to feats, Magic Items, Magic Spells etc and damage (if your unarmed strike damage is higher) ... '

Here's the feat description:

"Feral Combat Training (Combat)

You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.

Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.

Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.

Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature."

I read the last part of the Benefits section as '... as well as effects of feats that augment ...' (I think my two added words 'of feats' are strongly implied). A more liberal reading would take 'effects' to include spells and/or items that augment unarmed strike. I can't see how a class feature (i.e. the scaling of damage with unarmed strike) can be considered an effect. Also note that other weapons which can be used in a monk's FoB do not have scaling damage.

I'm looking forward to your completed guide!

Hey, I don't blame ya, I thought that was a bit of a stretch too, until this faq:

Quote:

Feral Combat Training and Unarmed Strike Damage: Does this allow me to use my monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack?

Yes. The feat says you can apply "effects that augment an unarmed strike," and the monk's increased unarmed damage counts as such.

Crazy, huh?

prototype00


Papa-DRB wrote:

Yea, but as a Druid 7 (strong jaw) / Monk 10 (at max in the campaign I am prepping for), a monk does 1d10, more likely a step down from that.

I do not understand what you mean by "damage progression". What damage progression?

-- david

Monk 10 + Monk's Robe = 15 levels (2d6 damage) + Monastic Legacy (3 extra monk levels from 7 levels of Druid) = 2d8 damage

With Strong Jaw and Huge Wildshape, thats 8d8 damage, which isn't bad. You have to be lvl 20 for the 12d8 damage unfortunately.

Quote:
Also, I would dispute prototype00s last statement. Behemoth Hippopotamus + Rageshaper (bestial aspect) + Improved Natural Attack + Strong Jaw + Cloak of Fangs. And, as an afterthought, Improved Vital Strike and Furious Finish.

Sure, but some differences between this and the druid:

1. The druid an stay in his form for the entire day, Polymorph and Beast Shape last for a minute per level

2. The Druid can cast his spells thanks to Natural spell (so versatility)

3. The druid can also do this trick, behemoth hippo is all right, but the carnivorous crystal is better.

prototype00


So a 20th level monk does 2d10 unarmed strike damage (works out to 3d8 in damage progression terms). If you have feral combat training, your claws/slams/bite/whatever does that much damage now.

If you are a huge creature, your unarmed strike is also huge, so 6d8 damage.

If you can cast Strong Jaw, thats 2 more size increases, so 12d8 damage (which is incidentally what a 20th level Colossal Monk would be doing).

No weapon (except for the Carnivorous Crystal's slam attack) will do as much damage as that. And that is the source of the Druid/Monk's power.

prototype00


Tetori, as the bonus feats and abilities are better.

Maneuver Master lets you tack on a maneuver for free onto a full attack, but if that maneuver is to grapple, you either lose the full attack, or you can't straight off pin (because you've used your standard action already during the full attack).

prototype00


Lune wrote:

Mmm... I think I may have just broke something.

I have potentially two questions.

1. Does Feral Combat Training work with Pummeling Style? I read the errata to both and I believe it does.

2. Assuming the answer to 1. is a "yes" ... did I just make the Conquerer Ooze build top the DPR meters?

Being able to charge, full attack with a flurry of uberslam, free action trip and do everything else that slam can do (stunning fist, etc) seems very powerful. Very. Powerful.

PS. Welcome back, prototyp00!

Its good, I personally prefer the max damage Greater Vital Strike damage with Furious Finish. 500ish damage in a single hit deals with DR quite effectively too, I find.

prototype00


Emperor Point wrote:
This seems like an interesting character concept but doesn't sound like it would be great at low levels. Is there any advice for what you might do at low level?

Two hand a Shillelaghed Quaterstaff enlarged by the growth domain or cast enlarge person via the strength domain for 3d6 + 1 + 1.5xStr (I recommend 18 strength so 12?)

That's what I did.

prototype00

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