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The Manyfaced One

prototype00's page

914 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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I just made it so that the weapon in question could be improved as per Arcane Bond. Then the player decides how he wants his weapon to grow.


Does Power of Giants Count as a spell here? I had mistakenly pegged it as Supernatural, but a spell like ability that doesn't map to any other spell?


Scout's Charge (Scout Archetype) or Enforcer and Shatter Defences are the usual methods.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

We'll worry about RAI once I've thumped your dragon. :)


Sure, not a problem (the size bonuses to damage don't stack, they overlap and I take the +6 from power of giants not the +2 from Ooze wildshape.)

It is just nice to be large for the boost to 21d8 damage on a slam, which translates to 672 damage from greater vital strike and furious finish.


And you took the feat that lets him use cha instead of dex for initiative (which story wise requires you to belong to a noble Inner Sea Family)! This Incendius truly is a unique member of his species! (Normal Great Wyrm Reds *if there is such a thing* have a +2 init).


andreww wrote:
That assumes he is asleep and that the noise/reverberation from hitting a wall of force for 600 damage doesn't wake him up. But yes if you catch him napping it would be an option.

Silence spell? All the cool dragon assassins have it.


Edit: The main problem with a frontal assault is that if Incendius wants to escape he can, but you can't due to a House Ruled prohibition against teleportation that doesn't apply equally within the area.

Granted he could decide to cast the disjunction, in which case anyone would be screwed. But if he was subject to the same prohibition against teleportation, I feel there might be a chance at getting a second hit in, y'know?

*P.s. If I am a Great Wyrm Red and someone hits me for 600+ points of damage (enough to TKO Treerazer, I might add), I'm not sticking around to see if disjunction works against him. That might be a demigod who has decided to kick my ass. Better run and marshal my resources again*

So just something I noticed while statting a character for Beastmass 3, the rules for Polymorph effects are as follows:

...You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell...

and the Power of Giants ability from the Orc Bloodline is as follows:

Power of Giants (Sp): At 15th level, you may grow to Large size as a standard action. At this size you gain a +6 size bonus to Strength, a –2 penalty to Dexterity, a +4 size bonus to Constitution, and a +4 natural armor bonus. You may return to your normal size as a standard action. You may remain in this size for up to 1 minute per character level per day; this duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be used in 1 minute increments.

Now the interesting thing here is that it doesn't say that Power of Giants is a polymorph spell or effect (it is just a supernatural ability). So would it stack with existing polymorph effects (like say, wild shape)?

No big impact for regular druids, who get to huge size already, but for cave druids, with a carnivorous crystal doing 7d8 damage as a medium creature, upgrading to large can really boost that damage (up to 21d8 with Strong Jaw Cast, methinks).


Ah, Incendius also has more HP than a traditional Great Wyrm Red (though I had miscalculated 449 HP is still a tad too much for the Conqueror Ooze as well).

As I said, fair enough, the DM has the upper hand in this case. I am thankful about the realization about Power of Giants, though, that has nice applications.


So really, it comes down to having an ability that breaks walls of force instantaneously (since teleportation is out of the question), which I don't think (IIRC) actually exists in RAW Pathfinder.

Otherwise Incendius can just teleport away, since his House-Ruled lair prohibitions don't apply to him.

Fair enough, Andreww, I concede. I shall take my 672+ damage and find other less fiat-ed characters to defeat (like 10 Tarrasques, say).


While Ethereal? This is an impressive Beast!

Actually while being Ethereal, I don't actually have to Earthglide, so no problem showing up in ooze form then.


Ah, so some form of spell breaking or somesuch is required? I had thought that only "entrance" to his lair is warded from teleportation and divination (since I've already entered via earthglide).

But if all divination and teleportation is barred in the lair itself, well that is a different kettle of fish. If there are things in here that out and out flaunt the rules, a character built using the rules will be hard pressed to overcome them.

Still, close eh? The conqueror ooze will probably one hit TKO him the moment he shows up at his next target.


So some form of teleportation to get in? But that uses up valuable surprise round time. (Otherwise I would have just suggested a tattooed cape of the mountebank)

Though you could start off ethereal, using a spectral shroud (since the true-seers are up on the upper slopes), burrow in (using earthglide to enter via the lower slopes), teleport into the cube of force using the aforesaid, and then carry out the plan.

Bonus points if the finishing move name is Shoryuken.


Edit: On a whim, I went to see if the souped up Conqueror Ooze can one hit TKO Cthulhu, but alas no (774HP), but close. Another 3 or 4 splats and we should be able to.

Ah, my mistake, I had assumed it was open to the ground on the bottom. Back to the drawing board, I suppose.


So, I just realized that the Orc Bloodline Power Of Giants can be activated while you are under a "polymorph" effect.

This being the relevant line in the rules:

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

and power of giants is:

Power of Giants (Sp): At 15th level, you may grow to Large size as a standard action. At this size you gain a +6 size bonus to Strength, a –2 penalty to Dexterity, a +4 size bonus to Constitution, and a +4 natural armor bonus. You may return to your normal size as a standard action. You may remain in this size for up to 1 minute per character level per day; this duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be used in 1 minute increments.

A supernatural ability and not a polymorph spell.

Well and good,

7d8 base damage -> 14d8 (Strong Jaw) -> 21d8 (Power of Giants) -> 84d8 (Greater Vital Strike) -> 672 damage (Maximized with Furious Finish) + miscellany like strength, enhancement e.t.c., so closer to 700, really

So basic strategy?

1. Buff Up
2. Earth Elemental Form with Tremorsense (Cave Druid/Cave Domain)
3. Earthglide to right under Incendius.
4. Swift-change into Carnivorous Crystal and shout name of Finishing Move
5. Deal 672+ damage which is enough to gib the Planetar and Incendius
6. Fight off horde of whatever else.
7. Bow to dying Planetar and utter apologies before walking off into sunset.


voideternal wrote:
I wonder if a druid earth-gliding through lava would trigger the dragon's blindsense. Does lava block line of effect needed for blindsense? If it does, the druid with cave domain and tremorsense might get a surprise round on the dragon. How this leads to a 1 turn kill that doesn't let the dragon teleport back to the planetar with raise dead, I'm still working out...

Well, the Conqueror Ooze does get Elemental forms. With swift wildshape, he could start out as an elemental, earthglide to get close, then one hit TKO as a Carnivorous Crystal (assuming he still has a standard action left, which I think he does).


Hmm, let me do some calculations...

14d8 with greater vital strike is 56d8, maximized is 448 damage, the great wyrm has 449 HP, so a +2 to damage (something has gone very wrong if we don't have at least a +2 to damage) will take it to less than zero.

So yeah... Conqueror Ooze one hit TKOs the Great Wyrm Red dragon. 20th level build of course (or 19th at least to pick up greater vital strike).

For reference:

Slam attack of Carnivorous crystal - 7d8
Increased damage from Strong Jaw (roughly 2x) - 14d8
Greater Vital Strike - 56d8
Furious Finish (maximized vital strike damage) - 56x8 = 448 damage
5 levels of Martial Artist - No fatigue from Rage Cycling


P.s. As a per Beast Shape IV, I also have resist fire 20, if that helps any, and evasion.

So the question really becomes, how many Great Wyrm Red Dragons are there?

Quaterstaff Druid using shillelagh with the Growth domain?

3d6 from lvl 1. (If you focus on str, you get a nice rider with double handing the quaterstaff).

Then transition gracefully to wildshape and pouncing shennanigans at lvl 4 (lots of dice there too).


Any possible chance of going for Gnome (or racial heritage gnome) and zen Koan? Locking down enemies (and take drunken master for the ki-refill).


Not that I have lost any belief in the 10 Drd/ 10 Mnk split (it is only one of the two ways I know off to get a weapon that does more damage than a CL 20 blast spell), but do people feel better about a 3 Mnk / 17 Drd vs a 20 Druid? Exact same wildshape, 9th level spells, better saves and AC and 8d8 damage on attacks versus 2d8.


lantzkev wrote:

If I had a lvl 12 monk, and had elemental form 3 on him (makes him large) then had enlarge cast on him, and he had impact on his amulet of mighty fists and had animal aspect gorilla on him.. what would his dmg be?

I know at huge the 2d6 would go to 4d8, but past that I'm unsure.

Note: I have no need for a long discussion (weekend, baby!), so I'm going to only make this one post, and you won't hear a peep out of me again, I promise.

1. Monk advancement is "special" (in that it is actually crap. You don't get a size increase with every increase in damage which is generally better.)

2. Size increases follow the Improved Natural Attack table (which gives damage increases up to 12d8 and then double that for every size increase after that).

So with these two things, we can figure out the damage for most colossal foes (and certain PCs who know how to multiclass druid and monk)

There are several problems with your concept.
- Enlarge doesn't stack with elemental form as per the polymorph rules

In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

- Impact doesn't work for unarmed strikes, since

This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons that are not light weapons.

and Unarmed Strikes

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

but, assuming you are the DM or the DM's girlfriend, technically (and wrongly) this is how it would stack:

2d6 base damage (from 12 levels of Monk) -> 3d6 -> 4d6 -> 6d6 -> 8d6 (for 4 size increases).

If you want to get onto the d8 track and keep the 4 size increases, might I suggest getting a Monk's robe and becoming the DM's girlfriend?


Well, a multiclass still serves well, a 17 Druid/ 3 Monk will have (thanks to monastic legacy and a monk's belt) 8d8 damage on their favored natural attack (or unarmed strike if they want to combine it with multiattack) 9th level spells, wis to AC and quite decent saves.

Though only an even 10/10 split lets you hit for 12d8 damage.

On the subject of antilife shell, does planar wildshape make you an outsider? If so, antilife shell basically does nothing.

I did not mention wildshape because the straight druid and the monk/druid are basically equally as good at wildshaping due to shaping focus (wildshape stops improving at 14th level with huge elementals).

Of course the Monk/Druid does more damage while wildshaped than a straight druid.


So I'm quite fond of the Druid/monk multiclasses and was wondering how it actually stacks up against a straight Druid- 12d8 damage versus 9th lvl spells. I'm not actively campaigning that one is better than the other, but I'd just like to see which one people prefer and why.

Since wildshape subsumes your armor bonuses while shifted, would mage armor continue to apply?


Well, the obvious is Rogue with the Scout and Knifemaster archetypes (to be able to maximize sneak attack with knives), then a couple levels in vivisectionist?


StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Monk 1 / Synthesist Summoner 19

Or alternatively,

Monk 1 / Druid 19.

Backstory: Johnny really wanted to be a badass martial artist growing up and quit school to enroll in a dojo at age 12. By age 13, even at his still young age he realized how pathetic and worthless monks are in a fight and [was seduced to the dark arts of summoning] / [went to go be a hippy in a druid grove] so that he could actually beat stuff up unarmed.

I've never been super impressed with the monk dip into spellcaster. I mean, heck if you want to be a spellcaster, you're losing the point of being a monk, which is punching people through walls.

That druid, for example, strong jaw, huge size, monk's belt so you're hitting like a level 6 monk still only nets you 4d8 unarmed strike at best (not bad, but I still say 12d8 is the gold standard).

*heck, at least take two more levels of monk for monastic legacy, so you can deal 8d8 points of damage (as a huge, strong jawed, 16th level monk), and still cast 9th level spells, with 3 monk levels, master of many styles is pretty good as well, 2 free style feats*

The synthesist I'm not even going to countenance, as it is worse at unarmed fighting than the druid. No stat synergy at all.


I basically just leveled her as an Arcane Duelist Bard. Simple, and she becomes an absolute monster if leveled with the characters.


I think most everyone here has stated in one form or another the things I am about to summarize:

1. Monks without flurry (trading it for an archetype) benefit the most from natural attacks.
- They can add it onto their attack routine for a -2 to hit with multiattack, and don't have to worry about having hands/claws free
- It scales with their unarmed strike damage with feral combat training
- It makes up for the loss of full BaB flurry with multiple attacks at slightly reduced BaB

*Exceptions can be made for forms with natural attacks that deal damage far above a monks eventual 2d10/4d8 with enlarged person. Carnivorous crystal ooze's 7d8 and the Behemoth Hippo 4d8 are the only ones that come to mind at the moment. Then you want feral combat training so that you can flurry with a 7d8 slam attack.

2. You want as many of the same type of natural attack as possible. This is usually claw.
- While I do think the Allosaurus has the edge on the Dire Tiger at higher levels due to unarmed strike size scaling, at mid levels, the Dire Tiger has 4 claw attacks on a pounce (the giant octopus has 8 tentacle attacks, there is something to think of there, but the lack of air breathing is problematic), which can all be boosted with dragon style and feral combat training.
A Catfolk monk with the Nimble Guardian archetype can become one of these 4 high BaB attacking monstrosities at lvl 9 (when you get pounce and rake), which is, afaik, one of the only ways to pull these shennanigans as a pure monk.

3. If you can, get druid levels. Druids are the best at enhancing natural attacks (I think summoners come close, but there is no stat synergy and synthesists are problematic), and indeed are also one of the best classes (the others being ranger and barbarian) at providing natural attacks.


Anything for mid-levels?


So I'm quite fond of playing druids. What I am not fond of however is having my Wildshaped druid denied entry to most human sized areas simply because he is the size of a two story house (huge).

Is there any way to shrink and grow in a reasonably short time-frame without eating up Wildshape uses? Or some other method of moving around efficiently while huge?


So my players faced a haunt the other day, they entered a room, noticed the manifestation on the surprise round, those who rolled initiative above a 10 got out, and those below it suffered the consequences.

Then the Haunt reset (and will trigger again if they try after an hour), so my question is, do they get the XP for it now, having "survived" it? Or do they need to perform the "final destroy condition" before that?


Hmmm, how badly do you want rake on a pounce? Like, enough to delay WS 2 levels badly? The thing about the good shaman archetypes (probably only Lion and Saurian Shaman), you give up timely access to medium Wildshape forms, but gain early access to wildshape forms that are larger with good abilities.

For example, in your above cited build, you would only get rake at 8th level (9th if you went for a level of martial artists first), but if you went say 1 monk / 6 Lion Shaman, at lvl 7, suddenly you become a raking pouncing dire-tiger, with 5 attacks on a charge.

Vanilla druid is arguably stronger at lower levels, but Shamans pull ahead somewhat in mid levels before they even out again. (I personally am playing a similarly built saurian shaman and I can't wait to Allosaurus out at 7th lvl).

Patience, it seems, is rewarded.



Base 20 Str
Belt +6 Str
Druid Huge Elemental WS +8 Str
Orc bloodline via eldritch heritage (need non-terrible charisma) +6 inherent bonus to str
+4 Bonuses from level increases

So 44 Str? Thats a +17 bonus to strength. Semi-doable on a Druid with decent charisma.


Edit: Ah, amusing. At that strength, you are stronger than the Tarrasque (41).

Ah right, technically you can get the above with just 8 levels in druid with shaping focus. For the other 12, you can be a barbarian. Greater rage gives a +6 morale bonus to strength, so 50? A nice even +20 to strength. Cthulhu is slightly stronger than you at 56, but really, he is 10 CR higher than you are.

Hmm, so it follows that the question we should be asking is if class abilities that grant claws (and are not specifically spelled out like Wildshape) grant proficiency?


Mojorat wrote:
I think its a no because characters level in a buff vaccume. However many games seem ro allow it.

What does the bolded mean? I'm trying to parse it and it doesn't make sense.


Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

Here is the text for Weapon Focus. My personal opinion is that the feat doesn't actually require you to have the weapon in question to hand, just proficiency in it, which you blatantly get with the totemic transformation ability. Do you lose the proficiency when the duration wears off?


Ah Sorry, the title really should say Weapon Focus (Claws/Bite)


I was wondering if the Totemic Transformation for the Shaman archetypes for the druid would allow you to take weapon focus (claws) or weapon focus (bite), it would really help with feat placement if it did. A bit of a leg up as compared to regular druids who have to wait till 4th level.


If your GM is big-hearted enough to allow Guided (I have met none so far that allow 3.5 items, so good on you) I'd stick to Wisdom all the way.

You will need dex for maneuvers though (you aren't a sensei so can't use wisdom for it). Were you planning on the Shaping Focus immediate medium air/fire elemental tactic at lvl 8 (I can't imagine the small elemental at lvl 6 really appeals.)? Will take some time, but I feel is reasonably worth it.


Just curious, you do know that you take a penalty to archery when your mount double moves?

You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.


Fomsie wrote:
prototype00 wrote:

Huge 3x3 creature with the head and tail representing a 15ft reach? We will see when it arrives.


And it is not just the feet that are supposed to fit on the base, but the majority of the miniature.

I just need the feet to fit in the 3x3 to have it represent a huge creature on the battlemat (i.e. for game purposes), why should (perhaps there is a reason I am missing?) I care about where the rest of the model goes?


Fomsie wrote:

Personally I think the model is too big for what it represents, cool as it may be, but to each their own.

I find that these minis are great for a number of situations, from animals and dinosaurs to their large dragon miniatures which are perfect size for Gargantuan creatures.

Safari LTD

Huge 3x3 creature with the head and tail representing a 15ft reach? We will see when it arrives.


Cranky Dog wrote:
They're not bad, but eventually, they'll become redundant items at higher levels.

Here I disagree, the items I have chosen are all core-proficiency items for the classes in question (weapons/armor/statboosting), and they can make the items better as if by craft magic arms armor/ wondrous items by themselves.

Why do you see them being redundant? If they find another weapon, they can sell it and use it to boost this current one, at half the price! Who wouldn't do that?


I like the idea of having kamis dwell within them, and it's not too different that what my items had. They were all low level items, but all got boosts with back story elements once they hit the ancestral land of Minkai.

What I gave:
- Headband of +5 Perception for the rogue (should've made it +2) that covers the eyes and has one kanji character representing a creature of the Tien zodiac. Eventually shown to be from a set of 12 zodiac headbands for servants of Abadar (split over Tian-Xia) whose job is to encourage the prosperity of their respective country/area. Also grants "favored terrain: Minkai" as a ranger of equivalent level, and "sees" kamis when nearby and can speak with them.

- Kimono +2, glammered. A set of clothes that can look like anything else and usable by monks or wizards/sorcerers since they are regular clothes. Once in Minkai, revealed to belong to a bodyguard and grants a dervish dancer's battle dances (performance equal as bard of half level, or normal if bard).

- Original and translated copy of the Tayagama (epic poems against the oni). Bard's gift, and each time he uses his performance to inspire his allies, onis receive and equal penalty. Recently discovered that the original copy had bardic masterpieces in it (spell like abilities in exchange for performance rounds). Samples: Tayago's Matchless Katana = Mass Keen Weapon; Fan of Masquerade = Mass Alter Self; Floating Stones = Mass Water Walk; Besemon Approaches = Song of discord 60' radius; Ruko's Storm = Tsunami spell.

- Non-magical : samurai code and training manual for katana (fighters) = free katana weapon proficiency or weapon focus if already learned and the basis to train in the samurai class (no asian flavored PCs back then)

Until the druid character left the group I also had a jade egg with pictures of Tian-Xia animals that duplicated Augment Summoning.

I like the ideas, but giving class abilities seems off to me somehow.


Gallo wrote:
prototype00 wrote:

Amazon has it at 23.4 x 11.4 x 9.2 cm

Though I wonder if that is head to tail...

I really just need to know if the feet fit in a 3x3 area.


I stock a lot of Papo and Schleich in my toy store - you should be ok with pretty much any of the dinosaurs fitting in a 3x3.
pogie wrote:
I use this exact model for wildshaping. It fits very nicely on a square 3"x3" base. The tail and head overhang these dimensions but the feet fit onto the base. The head and tail are high enough so that adjacent monsters/party members can stand next to you just fine. In my experience, players always get a kick out of seeing this guy come into play. As a bonus, the Allosauras has grab and this model has operable jaws so you stuff a mini into its mouth for some extra fun.

Ah, thats what I wanted to hear, thanks guys/gals!


Amazon has it at 23.4 x 11.4 x 9.2 cm

Though I wonder if that is head to tail...

I really just need to know if the feet fit in a 3x3 area.


So Papo makes these beautiful dinosaur models, and the Allosaurus, I feel is really the cream of this radiant crop.


I would like to use it as a mini for my druid, but I worry it would be too big for the three squares by three squares a huge creature takes up.

Does anyone own one of these? Does it work on say, the traditional one-inch by one inch Chessex battlemat?

Sorry for the possibly slightly silly question, but inquiring minds would like to know.


Well they also have to be animals/plants or elementals (as stated in the Wildshape description), so doesn't that rule out the gargoyle, Sahaugin or Aumvirmorax, two monstrous humanoids and a magical beast.

Wildshape isn't carte-blanche to turn into anything, there are very specific things you can turn into, and templated creatures isn't one of them.


*Edit* Ah, I see the giant octopus, but that is merely large. Meh, 8 attacks is nice though.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
My personal favorite monk is the Monktopus.

I totally agree with you for the first part, but I just checked and the giant lake octopus you use for this is actually a templated creature (An advanced giant octopus to be exact). I thought you couldn't use templated creatures for wildshape? (Its the same reason there isn't a large deionychus option, the megaraptor is a giant deionychus).

Or do you have something that sidesteps that?


Tels wrote:
Daenar wrote:
So... the most powerful monk is...?
The one that multiclasses and takes the majority of their classes in nearly any class other than Monk.

I dunno, an even split (DrD/Mnk) seems to be the most powerful variant of that combination (for the unarmed damage). *Where is my advanced Drd/Monk class Paizo, *sniff* *

And straight Nimble guardian is about as powerful as the above (okay, fine 6d8 unarmed damage, but still), so I would say thats my pick for most powerful straight Monk(especially paired with Qinggong and Master of Many Styles)


SilentlySage wrote:
I really like the idea of a Kami in the items. Instead of sacrificing gold, perhaps the PCs need to sacrifice Xgp worth of some items the Kami are interested in. That way the PCs must spend the gold, but the Kami get something more interesting than just gold. You could even make an encounter or side quest out of getting the appropriate items.

Ooh, I like that idea. So the items are going to be the following (The Kami are basically going to be Tukumogami, the spirit of the item in question, so I wonder what they are going to like?)

By the way, if you are playing in my pathfinder game, (that means you, Norrin, Sahan and Shinji) shoo!

A Scimitar +1 Keen (I basically traded out the +1 returning starknife for this) that has the Tien Symbol of Truth on it. This one for the paladin of Seranrae
- I figure this one wants holy writ or relics, or a particularly elaborate blessing of some description.

A Diadem of Alluring Charisma +2 set with blue sapphires. This one is for the Summoner. (Who is obsessed with the colour blue for some reason)
- Blue gems, blue gems and more blue gems.

An O-Yoroi +2 with the Kaijutsu clan crest on it. This one is for the Samurai retainer of Ameiko
- Hmmm, not really sure of this one.

A scaled Belt of Giant Strength+2 for the vicious/survival of the fittest Monk/Saurian Shaman Druid.
- Probably the remains of dangerous prey, to prove the supremacy of the might of the Saurian Shaman.

But what do you think?


Actually it has been specifically stated by the devs that lead blades and Impact don't stack:

Though if your GM was all right with it, more power to you. (Herolabs is a bit of a dim program, it assumes you know what you're doing)

As to the trip, you get that whenever you hit with the tail, cleave attack or no. You could whirlwind with it, and it would trip everyone you hit with it.


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