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The Manyfaced One

prototype00's page

895 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Not that I have lost any belief in the 10 Drd/ 10 Mnk split (it is only one of the two ways I know off to get a weapon that does more damage than a CL 20 blast spell), but do people feel better about a 3 Mnk / 17 Drd vs a 20 Druid? Exact same wildshape, 9th level spells, better saves and AC and 8d8 damage on attacks versus 2d8.

prototype00


lantzkev wrote:

If I had a lvl 12 monk, and had elemental form 3 on him (makes him large) then had enlarge cast on him, and he had impact on his amulet of mighty fists and had animal aspect gorilla on him.. what would his dmg be?

I know at huge the 2d6 would go to 4d8, but past that I'm unsure.

Note: I have no need for a long discussion (weekend, baby!), so I'm going to only make this one post, and you won't hear a peep out of me again, I promise.

1. Monk advancement is "special" (in that it is actually crap. You don't get a size increase with every increase in damage which is generally better.)

2. Size increases follow the Improved Natural Attack table (which gives damage increases up to 12d8 and then double that for every size increase after that).

So with these two things, we can figure out the damage for most colossal foes (and certain PCs who know how to multiclass druid and monk)

There are several problems with your concept.
- Enlarge doesn't stack with elemental form as per the polymorph rules

Quote:
In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

- Impact doesn't work for unarmed strikes, since

Quote:
This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons that are not light weapons.

and Unarmed Strikes

Quote:
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

but, assuming you are the DM or the DM's girlfriend, technically (and wrongly) this is how it would stack:

2d6 base damage (from 12 levels of Monk) -> 3d6 -> 4d6 -> 6d6 -> 8d6 (for 4 size increases).

If you want to get onto the d8 track and keep the 4 size increases, might I suggest getting a Monk's robe and becoming the DM's girlfriend?

prototype00


Well, a multiclass still serves well, a 17 Druid/ 3 Monk will have (thanks to monastic legacy and a monk's belt) 8d8 damage on their favored natural attack (or unarmed strike if they want to combine it with multiattack) 9th level spells, wis to AC and quite decent saves.

Though only an even 10/10 split lets you hit for 12d8 damage.

On the subject of antilife shell, does planar wildshape make you an outsider? If so, antilife shell basically does nothing.

I did not mention wildshape because the straight druid and the monk/druid are basically equally as good at wildshaping due to shaping focus (wildshape stops improving at 14th level with huge elementals).

Of course the Monk/Druid does more damage while wildshaped than a straight druid.

prototype00


So I'm quite fond of the Druid/monk multiclasses and was wondering how it actually stacks up against a straight Druid- 12d8 damage versus 9th lvl spells. I'm not actively campaigning that one is better than the other, but I'd just like to see which one people prefer and why.


Since wildshape subsumes your armor bonuses while shifted, would mage armor continue to apply?

prototype00


Well, the obvious is Rogue with the Scout and Knifemaster archetypes (to be able to maximize sneak attack with knives), then a couple levels in vivisectionist?

prototype00


StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Monk 1 / Synthesist Summoner 19

Or alternatively,

Monk 1 / Druid 19.

Backstory: Johnny really wanted to be a badass martial artist growing up and quit school to enroll in a dojo at age 12. By age 13, even at his still young age he realized how pathetic and worthless monks are in a fight and [was seduced to the dark arts of summoning] / [went to go be a hippy in a druid grove] so that he could actually beat stuff up unarmed.

I've never been super impressed with the monk dip into spellcaster. I mean, heck if you want to be a spellcaster, you're losing the point of being a monk, which is punching people through walls.

That druid, for example, strong jaw, huge size, monk's belt so you're hitting like a level 6 monk still only nets you 4d8 unarmed strike at best (not bad, but I still say 12d8 is the gold standard).

*heck, at least take two more levels of monk for monastic legacy, so you can deal 8d8 points of damage (as a huge, strong jawed, 16th level monk), and still cast 9th level spells, with 3 monk levels, master of many styles is pretty good as well, 2 free style feats*

The synthesist I'm not even going to countenance, as it is worse at unarmed fighting than the druid. No stat synergy at all.

prototype00


I basically just leveled her as an Arcane Duelist Bard. Simple, and she becomes an absolute monster if leveled with the characters.

prototype00


I think most everyone here has stated in one form or another the things I am about to summarize:

1. Monks without flurry (trading it for an archetype) benefit the most from natural attacks.
- They can add it onto their attack routine for a -2 to hit with multiattack, and don't have to worry about having hands/claws free
- It scales with their unarmed strike damage with feral combat training
- It makes up for the loss of full BaB flurry with multiple attacks at slightly reduced BaB

*Exceptions can be made for forms with natural attacks that deal damage far above a monks eventual 2d10/4d8 with enlarged person. Carnivorous crystal ooze's 7d8 and the Behemoth Hippo 4d8 are the only ones that come to mind at the moment. Then you want feral combat training so that you can flurry with a 7d8 slam attack.

2. You want as many of the same type of natural attack as possible. This is usually claw.
- While I do think the Allosaurus has the edge on the Dire Tiger at higher levels due to unarmed strike size scaling, at mid levels, the Dire Tiger has 4 claw attacks on a pounce (the giant octopus has 8 tentacle attacks, there is something to think of there, but the lack of air breathing is problematic), which can all be boosted with dragon style and feral combat training.
A Catfolk monk with the Nimble Guardian archetype can become one of these 4 high BaB attacking monstrosities at lvl 9 (when you get pounce and rake), which is, afaik, one of the only ways to pull these shennanigans as a pure monk.

3. If you can, get druid levels. Druids are the best at enhancing natural attacks (I think summoners come close, but there is no stat synergy and synthesists are problematic), and indeed are also one of the best classes (the others being ranger and barbarian) at providing natural attacks.

prototype00


Anything for mid-levels?

prototype00


So I'm quite fond of playing druids. What I am not fond of however is having my Wildshaped druid denied entry to most human sized areas simply because he is the size of a two story house (huge).

Is there any way to shrink and grow in a reasonably short time-frame without eating up Wildshape uses? Or some other method of moving around efficiently while huge?

prototype00


So my players faced a haunt the other day, they entered a room, noticed the manifestation on the surprise round, those who rolled initiative above a 10 got out, and those below it suffered the consequences.

Then the Haunt reset (and will trigger again if they try after an hour), so my question is, do they get the XP for it now, having "survived" it? Or do they need to perform the "final destroy condition" before that?

prototype00


Hmmm, how badly do you want rake on a pounce? Like, enough to delay WS 2 levels badly? The thing about the good shaman archetypes (probably only Lion and Saurian Shaman), you give up timely access to medium Wildshape forms, but gain early access to wildshape forms that are larger with good abilities.

For example, in your above cited build, you would only get rake at 8th level (9th if you went for a level of martial artists first), but if you went say 1 monk / 6 Lion Shaman, at lvl 7, suddenly you become a raking pouncing dire-tiger, with 5 attacks on a charge.

Vanilla druid is arguably stronger at lower levels, but Shamans pull ahead somewhat in mid levels before they even out again. (I personally am playing a similarly built saurian shaman and I can't wait to Allosaurus out at 7th lvl).

Patience, it seems, is rewarded.

prototype00


Hmm,

Base 20 Str
Belt +6 Str
Druid Huge Elemental WS +8 Str
Orc bloodline via eldritch heritage (need non-terrible charisma) +6 inherent bonus to str
+4 Bonuses from level increases

So 44 Str? Thats a +17 bonus to strength. Semi-doable on a Druid with decent charisma.

prototype00

Edit: Ah, amusing. At that strength, you are stronger than the Tarrasque (41).

Ah right, technically you can get the above with just 8 levels in druid with shaping focus. For the other 12, you can be a barbarian. Greater rage gives a +6 morale bonus to strength, so 50? A nice even +20 to strength. Cthulhu is slightly stronger than you at 56, but really, he is 10 CR higher than you are.


Hmm, so it follows that the question we should be asking is if class abilities that grant claws (and are not specifically spelled out like Wildshape) grant proficiency?

prototype00


Mojorat wrote:
I think its a no because characters level in a buff vaccume. However many games seem ro allow it.

What does the bolded mean? I'm trying to parse it and it doesn't make sense.

Quote:

Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

Here is the text for Weapon Focus. My personal opinion is that the feat doesn't actually require you to have the weapon in question to hand, just proficiency in it, which you blatantly get with the totemic transformation ability. Do you lose the proficiency when the duration wears off?

prototype00


Ah Sorry, the title really should say Weapon Focus (Claws/Bite)

prototype00


I was wondering if the Totemic Transformation for the Shaman archetypes for the druid would allow you to take weapon focus (claws) or weapon focus (bite), it would really help with feat placement if it did. A bit of a leg up as compared to regular druids who have to wait till 4th level.

prototype00


If your GM is big-hearted enough to allow Guided (I have met none so far that allow 3.5 items, so good on you) I'd stick to Wisdom all the way.

You will need dex for maneuvers though (you aren't a sensei so can't use wisdom for it). Were you planning on the Shaping Focus immediate medium air/fire elemental tactic at lvl 8 (I can't imagine the small elemental at lvl 6 really appeals.)? Will take some time, but I feel is reasonably worth it.

prototype00


Just curious, you do know that you take a penalty to archery when your mount double moves?

Quote:
You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.

prototype00


Fomsie wrote:
prototype00 wrote:


Huge 3x3 creature with the head and tail representing a 15ft reach? We will see when it arrives.

Prototype00

And it is not just the feet that are supposed to fit on the base, but the majority of the miniature.

I just need the feet to fit in the 3x3 to have it represent a huge creature on the battlemat (i.e. for game purposes), why should (perhaps there is a reason I am missing?) I care about where the rest of the model goes?

prototype00


Fomsie wrote:

Personally I think the model is too big for what it represents, cool as it may be, but to each their own.

I find that these minis are great for a number of situations, from animals and dinosaurs to their large dragon miniatures which are perfect size for Gargantuan creatures.

Safari LTD

Huge 3x3 creature with the head and tail representing a 15ft reach? We will see when it arrives.

Prototype00


Cranky Dog wrote:
They're not bad, but eventually, they'll become redundant items at higher levels.

Here I disagree, the items I have chosen are all core-proficiency items for the classes in question (weapons/armor/statboosting), and they can make the items better as if by craft magic arms armor/ wondrous items by themselves.

Why do you see them being redundant? If they find another weapon, they can sell it and use it to boost this current one, at half the price! Who wouldn't do that?

Quote:

I like the idea of having kamis dwell within them, and it's not too different that what my items had. They were all low level items, but all got boosts with back story elements once they hit the ancestral land of Minkai.

What I gave:
- Headband of +5 Perception for the rogue (should've made it +2) that covers the eyes and has one kanji character representing a creature of the Tien zodiac. Eventually shown to be from a set of 12 zodiac headbands for servants of Abadar (split over Tian-Xia) whose job is to encourage the prosperity of their respective country/area. Also grants "favored terrain: Minkai" as a ranger of equivalent level, and "sees" kamis when nearby and can speak with them.

- Kimono +2, glammered. A set of clothes that can look like anything else and usable by monks or wizards/sorcerers since they are regular clothes. Once in Minkai, revealed to belong to a bodyguard and grants a dervish dancer's battle dances (performance equal as bard of half level, or normal if bard).

- Original and translated copy of the Tayagama (epic poems against the oni). Bard's gift, and each time he uses his performance to inspire his allies, onis receive and equal penalty. Recently discovered that the original copy had bardic masterpieces in it (spell like abilities in exchange for performance rounds). Samples: Tayago's Matchless Katana = Mass Keen Weapon; Fan of Masquerade = Mass Alter Self; Floating Stones = Mass Water Walk; Besemon Approaches = Song of discord 60' radius; Ruko's Storm = Tsunami spell.

- Non-magical : samurai code and training manual for katana (fighters) = free katana weapon proficiency or weapon focus if already learned and the basis to train in the samurai class (no asian flavored PCs back then)

Until the druid character left the group I also had a jade egg with pictures of Tian-Xia animals that duplicated Augment Summoning.

I like the ideas, but giving class abilities seems off to me somehow.

prototype00


Gallo wrote:
prototype00 wrote:

Amazon has it at 23.4 x 11.4 x 9.2 cm

Though I wonder if that is head to tail...

I really just need to know if the feet fit in a 3x3 area.

prototype00

I stock a lot of Papo and Schleich in my toy store - you should be ok with pretty much any of the dinosaurs fitting in a 3x3.
pogie wrote:
I use this exact model for wildshaping. It fits very nicely on a square 3"x3" base. The tail and head overhang these dimensions but the feet fit onto the base. The head and tail are high enough so that adjacent monsters/party members can stand next to you just fine. In my experience, players always get a kick out of seeing this guy come into play. As a bonus, the Allosauras has grab and this model has operable jaws so you stuff a mini into its mouth for some extra fun.

Ah, thats what I wanted to hear, thanks guys/gals!

prototype00


Amazon has it at 23.4 x 11.4 x 9.2 cm

Though I wonder if that is head to tail...

I really just need to know if the feet fit in a 3x3 area.

prototype00


So Papo makes these beautiful dinosaur models, and the Allosaurus, I feel is really the cream of this radiant crop.

Reference

I would like to use it as a mini for my druid, but I worry it would be too big for the three squares by three squares a huge creature takes up.

Does anyone own one of these? Does it work on say, the traditional one-inch by one inch Chessex battlemat?

Sorry for the possibly slightly silly question, but inquiring minds would like to know.

prototype00


Well they also have to be animals/plants or elementals (as stated in the Wildshape description), so doesn't that rule out the gargoyle, Sahaugin or Aumvirmorax, two monstrous humanoids and a magical beast.

Wildshape isn't carte-blanche to turn into anything, there are very specific things you can turn into, and templated creatures isn't one of them.

prototype00

*Edit* Ah, I see the giant octopus, but that is merely large. Meh, 8 attacks is nice though.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
My personal favorite monk is the Monktopus.

I totally agree with you for the first part, but I just checked and the giant lake octopus you use for this is actually a templated creature (An advanced giant octopus to be exact). I thought you couldn't use templated creatures for wildshape? (Its the same reason there isn't a large deionychus option, the megaraptor is a giant deionychus).

Or do you have something that sidesteps that?

prototype00


Tels wrote:
Daenar wrote:
So... the most powerful monk is...?
The one that multiclasses and takes the majority of their classes in nearly any class other than Monk.

I dunno, an even split (DrD/Mnk) seems to be the most powerful variant of that combination (for the unarmed damage). *Where is my advanced Drd/Monk class Paizo, *sniff* *

And straight Nimble guardian is about as powerful as the above (okay, fine 6d8 unarmed damage, but still), so I would say thats my pick for most powerful straight Monk(especially paired with Qinggong and Master of Many Styles)

prototype00


SilentlySage wrote:
I really like the idea of a Kami in the items. Instead of sacrificing gold, perhaps the PCs need to sacrifice Xgp worth of some items the Kami are interested in. That way the PCs must spend the gold, but the Kami get something more interesting than just gold. You could even make an encounter or side quest out of getting the appropriate items.

Ooh, I like that idea. So the items are going to be the following (The Kami are basically going to be Tukumogami, the spirit of the item in question, so I wonder what they are going to like?)

By the way, if you are playing in my pathfinder game, (that means you, Norrin, Sahan and Shinji) shoo!

A Scimitar +1 Keen (I basically traded out the +1 returning starknife for this) that has the Tien Symbol of Truth on it. This one for the paladin of Seranrae
- I figure this one wants holy writ or relics, or a particularly elaborate blessing of some description.

A Diadem of Alluring Charisma +2 set with blue sapphires. This one is for the Summoner. (Who is obsessed with the colour blue for some reason)
- Blue gems, blue gems and more blue gems.

An O-Yoroi +2 with the Kaijutsu clan crest on it. This one is for the Samurai retainer of Ameiko
- Hmmm, not really sure of this one.

A scaled Belt of Giant Strength+2 for the vicious/survival of the fittest Monk/Saurian Shaman Druid.
- Probably the remains of dangerous prey, to prove the supremacy of the might of the Saurian Shaman.

But what do you think?

prototype00


Actually it has been specifically stated by the devs that lead blades and Impact don't stack:

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gg#v5748eaic9qx4

Though if your GM was all right with it, more power to you. (Herolabs is a bit of a dim program, it assumes you know what you're doing)

As to the trip, you get that whenever you hit with the tail, cleave attack or no. You could whirlwind with it, and it would trip everyone you hit with it.

prototype00


The wording for INA and Strong Jaw both work off the original size of the creature, so they don't stack.

But 6d8 isn't bad.

prototype00


Have you considered gnome for zen koan? With an infinite supply of ki, you can basically lockdown a particular enemy as a swift action.

prototype00


While roleplay rewards are good and all, I wanted to keep the decision to upgrade (and what to upgrade to) within the hands of the characters (as it would be with regular magic items).

Besides, in every Shinto temple, there is a massive donation box at the front, so the Kami are not necessarily uninterested in sacrifice. The money is secondary, in this case I think, more the intent (and action) to grow the abilities of the Kami imbued in the item. Faith and works if you will.

prototype00


So I wanted the items at the end of the Brinewall legacy to have a bit of a zing, a resonance with the characters and I think I've come up with something relatively workable.

The items are regular magic tools (a belt of strength for the monk, a keen scimitar for the paladin, a magical suit of O-Yoroi armor for the Samurai e.t.c.) but the kami that resides within each item is willing to take sacrifices!

Basically what this means is that the items can be upgraded as if by crafting by "sacrificing" an appropriate amount of gold (half the purchase price) to the kami.

None of the characters are crafters, so this makes each item really special I think, something that will grow as quickly as they do.

Opinions?

prototype00


Errrm, Strong Jaws applies to all natural weapons (and unarmed strike as it counts as both a manufactured and a natural weapon) with one casting.

Quote:
Laying a hand upon an allied creature's jaw, claws, tentacles, or other natural weapons, you enhance the power of that creature's natural attacks. Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is.

Not that I necessarily agree with your other assertions, but this one seemed like a simple enough rules misunderstanding.

prototype00


Catfolk (Human with racial heritage: Catfolk) nimble guardian. About on par (ish) with the monk/druid (though the Dire Tiger is no Allosaurus), straight monk for the goodies.

Other than that, nope, not really anything.

prototype00


Quote:

Feral Combat Training and Unarmed Strike Damage: Does this allow me to use my monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack?

Yes. The feat says you can apply "effects that augment an unarmed strike," and the monk's increased unarmed damage counts as such.

Seems obvious to me, but I suspect you will not agree with me on that.

How about you faq the OP's query and we can both get an answer eventually? :)

prototype00


Quantum Steve wrote:
prototype00 wrote:

Sure! That sounds correct. If you could only point out the rule that you are quoting when you say that?

Gladly.

PRD wrote:

Improved Natural Attack

Attacks made by one of this creature's natural attacks leave vicious wounds.

Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.

A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.

Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Each time it is taken, it applies to a different natural attack.

*emphasis mine

As you can see, the damage for the natural attack increases by one step, not the damage for an unarmed strike or the damage for a great sword.

And with FCT the natural attack damage dice = unarmed damage dice at this point. So... why wouldn't INA work? I see nothing in the feat description (emphasis or no) that precludes this?

Perhaps I am not looking hard enough. You will have to try harder to point it out to me.

prototype00


Quantum Steve wrote:
prototype00 wrote:
Mojorat wrote:

The thing is wether a rule is correct or not is not good to base on a specific character. Wether you allow a rules exception for a specific character to make your game more fun is a different issue.

Im of the view point, that you can take improved natural attack claws all you want. But the pre-defined UAS damage from monk doesnt change. Because ultimately that is the source of the Damage.

But where in the rules does it say that? There is nothing in the faq, or either feat description that says that once you use unarmed strike damage with your natural attack, you can't then apply feats that affect the natural attack to it.

In a home game, yes, you can limit it if you feel that it is too good, but the rationale isn't there in the rules.

Quote:
And the game rules wise is clear that you cant modify UAS with imp natural attack.

This on the other hand is abundantly clear, but has no bearing on the natural attack.

prototype00

You can still apply effects to a natural attack if you use unarmed strike damage, Weapon Focus, Rend, Eldritch Claws, 2x power attack (if applicable), etc. but effects that augment natural attack base damage (ex. INA) wouldn't be relevant if you're not using the base damage from the natural attack.

Sure! That sounds correct. If you could only point out the rule that you are quoting when you say that? Or the faq that has cleared this up? :)

I really don't mean to be contrary here, but trying say that one subset of natural attack altering feats work and another doesn't is really pointless when nothing in the feat description backs you up.

prototype00


Mojorat wrote:

The thing is wether a rule is correct or not is not good to base on a specific character. Wether you allow a rules exception for a specific character to make your game more fun is a different issue.

Im of the view point, that you can take improved natural attack claws all you want. But the pre-defined UAS damage from monk doesnt change. Because ultimately that is the source of the Damage.

But where in the rules does it say that? There is nothing in the faq, or either feat description that says that once you use unarmed strike damage with your natural attack, you can't then apply feats that affect the natural attack to it.

In a home game, yes, you can limit it if you feel that it is too good, but the rationale isn't there in the rules.

Quote:
And the game rules wise is clear that you cant modify UAS with imp natural attack.

This on the other hand is abundantly clear, but has no bearing on the natural attack.

prototype00


James Risner wrote:
prototype00 wrote:
Not to gainsay you James, but where in the feat description does it say that your claw stops being a natural attack

No where, but improving your Claws and replacing your Claws with unarmed damage dice are two separate things.

... does it say anywhere in the rules that they are? I mean, fair enough if it does, but...?

prototype00


Not to gainsay you James, but where in the feat description does it say that your claw stops being a natural attack (and augmentable with improved natural attack) when you apply "Effects that augment an unarmed strike" to it?

prototype00


There is always the tactic of turning into a behemoth hippo, rage cycling and dealing full damage on a vital strike with furious finish. In which case a dip would work, but you would need to get immunity to fatigue somehow.


Hmm, I might have missed it, but has anyone in this thread mentioned the Nimble Guardian?

Being able to turn into a Dire Tiger as a straight monk (4x claw attacks on a pounce, deal damage as unarmed strike with feral combat training and can be enhanced with Improved natural attack) for ultimately 4x6d8 damage at your highest BaB (around 15th level) is pretty sweet.

Of course, Catfolks (or humans with racial heritage) only, but still.

Quite powerful brawler for a straight monk.

prototype00


Hmm, if you want to go straight monk and be an absolute monster in combat, might I suggest taking the Nimble Guardian archetype? (Either by being a Catfolk or a Human with Racial Heritage?)

At 7th level you can become a Dire Tiger. This basically means that you have 5 attacks when pouncing, 4 of which are claws. With Weapon Focus (Claws) and Feral Combat Training (Claws) you can basically treat all of them as unarmed strikes for the purpose of feats (so stack those dragon style/tiger style stuff onto them)

And you can apply Improved Natural Attack onto them (thus getting around the unarmed strike restriction), at 20th level you're doing 6d8 per hit with those.

With multiattack, you can use them and your iterative unarmed strike in a single (awesome) full attack sequence (just choose an archetype that gives up flurry, hey, you can stack Master of Many Styles on top of Nimble Guardian, brilliant!).

prototype00


So maybe he doesn't want to come back, but the boss wants him back on the scene, expiry date, when the new Empress of Minkai is crowned?

prototype00


Not that I'm saying that any of your ideas are bad, BBT, but what is wrong with the scout/thug rogue? It is quite well recognized as one of the best nonlethal damage/debuffing (both sickened, shakened and frightened in the same attack?) builds.

Granted against nonlethal immune foes, you only have your regular rogue abilities to use, but that is a conscious choice the OP is making by choosing to emphasize nonlethal damage.

I know the board consensus is that "monks and rogues suck", but what most people forget is the "without system mastery" part.

prototype00


The only person who seemed to think that it didn't work showed up in the thread (I can't recall if I made a rules subforum post). If they are considered flat footed against you then all the stuff that they can do when they are flat footed applies. Its not like there isn't a tradeoff here (one big attack, versus several with Sneak attack).

prototype00


I collect my thoughts on the subject here:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mtx4?The-Pimp-Hand-and-its-applications#1

Perhaps some of them might be useful to you?

prototype00

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