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Hmmm, I don't actually have the book, but to my eye, it seems the Unchained monk probably makes a much better single class choice, but a much worse multi-class choice (which is unfortunately my preference, Monk/Druid multiclass).
On the other hand, I bet the new unchained monks make excellent Champions of Irori. Instead of going more levels in paladin, you can load up on Monk levels for extra ki abilities (powered by the CoI's channel-energy to ki alchemy). Am I right?
I actually really like the faq. Previously, the entire size/damage system was up for discussion and there was confusion about what stacked and what did not.
Now except for inevitable corner cases like shield spikes (which should get resolved soon to everyone's satisfaction, hopefully), it is much simpler. You have one actual size increase and one effective size increase and that is the limit of it. For those of you worried about damage, you can still get 12d8 damage per swing out of that, so I personally am not too broken up about it.
I on the other hand heartily endorse this faq as it is how it has always made sense to me. Thank you, faq team!
I'm glad my 12d8 unarmed strike Monk/Druids and 14d8 Unarmed Strike Conqueror Ooze still work exactly as planned. :)
Dragon Style says this:
Prerequisites: Str 15, Improved Unarmed Strike, Acrobatics 3 ranks.
Benefit: While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against sleep effects, paralysis effects, and stunning effects. You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw. You can also charge through squares that contain allies. Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.
And thus only applies to the first iterative.
Dragon Ferocity says this:
Benefit: While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus. When you score a critical hit or a successful Stunning Fist attempt against an opponent while using this style, that opponent is also shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1d4 + your Strength bonus.
And thus applies to all unarmed attacks.
Horn of the Criosphinx says this:
Prerequisite(s): Base attack bonus +6 or monk level 6th.
Benefit(s): Whenever you make a successful charge attack while wielding a two-handed weapon in both hands, add two times your Strength bonus to the damage roll.
Normal: A character wielding a two-handed weapon adds 1-1/2 times her Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Special: A monk can use this feat as long as he is wielding a two-handed weapon or both his hands are empty.
Note: A monk can take any of these feats as bonus feats at the indicated levels. To benefit from the feats, monks must have both hands free and capable of delivering an unarmed strike.
And doesn't specify that it only applies to the first attack. Where would you get that idea? If a monk got pounce from some other source (say, wildshape), he would get this benefit on all his unarmed strikes, would he not? Even sans pummeling style and just normal iteratives?
So Ram, say a Warpriest (Sacred Fist)/Monk (MoMS) has janni style/rush, dragon style/ferocity, Pummeling Style/Rush and Horn of the Criosphinx, you'd be all right with them dealing:
2.5x Str damage on all attacks (Interaction between Criosphinx and dragon ferocity, ignoring the 1.5x str damage from dragon style)
2x unarmed strike damage on all attacks (Janni Rush wording,nothing specifies that it is only the 1st attack that benefits)
on a full attack that applies the combined damage vs DR (thanks to Pummeling Style/Pummeling Charge)?
Just checking to see if I have understood right.
When he woke up the fight was already over...Exploiting Underhanded / Sap Master / Always Threatening
You can get Arcane Strike with the True Strike Spell like ability from the Qinggong Monk.
No huge felines, 9th level Nimble guardian is for Rake, which grants you two extra Claws on a pounce.
Its not the powerhouse a Monk/Druid is, but you get to play one of the most powerful Single Classed Monks out there.
For the Naga Aspirant Druid Archetype, which gets this ability:
Does the Druid's wildshape ability progress past this point (i.e. do they gain huge animal wildshape?)
... 20th level monk damage is 2d10. Its what I based all my calculations on.
Also the monk gets to full attack at the end of a charge, thanks to stuff like pummeling charge or pounce (in Allosaurus form).
Also if I am not mistaken, the value for powerful charge (4d10 in the case of the Tricerotops) is the amount of damage that you deal on a charge, and is not added to the base 2d10 damage.
So yes, I think my monk does a lot better (potentially 5x12d8 attacks versus a single 4d10 attack on a charge) but takes longer to get there.
Ah, you could do a single 12d8 gore on a charge as a Tricerotops with Strong Jaw on, thats not bad.
To Chaosguy, If you are going lion shaman, then you are going to have to be happy with 6d8 at most as there aren't any huge cats. Only Dinos have huge pouncers.
To Derek, Wildshapes lasts for hours per level, Natural spell allows you to cast during wildshape. With 2 Wildshapes at 8th level, for example, you can be in wildshape for 16 hours per day, which is basically all the time.
Well, your best friends here are:
1. The Monk Unarmed Damage Progression (and things that advance it, like a Monk's Robe or Monastic Legacy)
2. Things that increase size (I posit that you can get one "actual" size increase and one "virtual" size increase, as the virtual size increases are all based on your current size and don't seem to stack, another reason I am not in favor of INA).
So around level 10, if you have a Monk's robe and 3 levels of Monk, thats 1d10 unarmed strike damage.
With huge wildshape and Strong Jaw running, thats 6d8 damage. Thats probably good damage for 10th level.
If you can swing Janni Rush, that becomes 12d8 on a charge.
By lvl 20, you hav 12d8 on an unarmed strike and 24d8 on a charge with Janni Rush. Without grappling and constrict, this is probably the upperlimit.
(Or you could have the 56d8 maximized of the conqueror ooze, but that is only for one attack - in that case, the list is Furious Finish and Greater Vital Strike working on a 7d8 base damage natural attack slam).
Derek the Ferret wrote:
Hey, Prototype00, do you have an estimate for when the sample builds are going to be up? I really wanna see some cause this guide is awesome.
Recently switched computers, so slowly transferring stuff over, including the guide and related materials. Sorry about the delay. I'm happy to answer questions in the meantime, but the update might take up till the end of January (as work has picked up).
Gregory Connolly wrote:
Sorry about that, was having way too much fun over my vacation. When things have settled down and I have transferred everything to my new rig, I'll post a next version of the guide with builds.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
It seems prototype00 has reversed himself over the months. It would be interesting to hear about how the author of this...
Well, as I've said, the current face of rules arbritration (Mark Seifter, who presides over faq Friday) has given me his opinion (not an official rules judgement, mind), and I really don't feel like continually swimming against the current on this one. Simple as that.
If I get confirmation from a higher source (like say a faq), I will be more than happy to change it, in the meantime, I would like to keep things simple and straightforward.
Let me get this straight - say you do the underfoot adept/maneuver master build and wildshaped into a huge elemental. If you have the feral combat training feat, can you do your free maneuver master move or two, full attack, and then do the two slams at unarmed strike damage as well (which are...primary attacks so full bab and full str bonus right?) since it isn't a flurry of blows?
Yes, with the caveat that your natural attacks are considered secondary natural attacks, so that is -5 to hit and 1/2 str bonus (or -2 to hit with Multiattack) in a full attack with your unarmed strike.
Covert Operator wrote:
I noticed you set chokehold to red, but there is a hidden beauty to it: the target is silenced. That means no verbal spells!
You could also just pin them. First thing I'd do really.
On the INA issue, feel free to faq it in the thread, but possibly a new thread would be more visible?
Kastar makes my stance (such that it is, I personally feel it wouldn't be awful to let INA work the other way, as Strong Jaw is what really powers the build and works in any instance) quite clear, which is what I also believe most of the rules queries I have made (I recall one to JJ and one to Mark Seifter) have been answered.
I cannot in good conscience recommend something to players on the basis that some DMs who haven't asked the question of Mark Seifter might let it fly. Better to stand on surer ground.
Mickey Carver wrote:
So you chose all the worst options (or at least no good to great ones, Scorpion Style is...unfortunate... to say the least) and you want me to make the character better? I guess, follow the guide from now on? There isn't really anything more I can say to help you.
Did you have anything specific you wanted to do? You might have to make a new character to do so but I can help with that.
As far as I understand it, and I am in no way claiming to have all the answers here:
Fist of the Forest:
Unarmed Strike = X
Natural Attack = X
Not that I agree, but I see the logic, I guess.
If you say one thing, and other forumers say another and the current rules guy in residence agrees with them, there is not really much I can say.
Mark Seifter of the design team had this to say to my question:
Since you're replacing with the unarmed damage, I would think it wouldn't help.
Since I'd rather deal in more sure ways to power, rather than tricks DMs might outlaw, I elected to give it the grade I did. If it does work, great, faq it quick, please.
I was mostly going off this:
At 4th level, he suffers no penalties on attack rolls, can make attacks of opportunity while grappling, and retains his Dexterity bonus to AC when pinning an opponent or when grappled.
Of course you're going to want rapid grapple to fully utilize this.
Good build Kastar, unfortunately I don't think that Brawlers can use their Natural Attacks with Brawler's flurry due to the wording of FCT.
A Goliath Druid can use compsognathus form to scout stealthily. Or pteranodon form to fly. Still lacks a tiny flying form, but it's not completely screwed on either front.
So as to keep the guide as simple as possible, I will opt not to cover 3rd party resources, if that is all right. I had thought the Goliath druid was Pathfinder core, but evidently not.
You probably want a level of Tetori Monk (for Improved Grapple for free), and then 3 levels of Naga Aspirant (so you can go Naga at 6th level with a pick of Shaping Focus at 5th level, delays Natural Spell to 7th level, however, ah well).
After you take your 4 levels of Naga Aspirant, revert to Monk for the next 5 levels to pick up Greater Grapple for free.
As to low level feats, it would be mostly the same combat feats that most monks druids will take (Weapon focus (Improved Unarmed Strike) etc, as you can effectively fight other opponents around you while grappling anyway. I actually don't have any specific advice for this, anyone else want to chime in? Grabbing style will be useful, but a high level pick.
By the by, thanks for the patience with the guide, I am enjoying my holiday so far, but there will be a stretch where I am on the road, so we'll see about putting a bit more in then.
Hey, I don't blame ya, I thought that was a bit of a stretch too, until this faq:
Monk 10 + Monk's Robe = 15 levels (2d6 damage) + Monastic Legacy (3 extra monk levels from 7 levels of Druid) = 2d8 damage
With Strong Jaw and Huge Wildshape, thats 8d8 damage, which isn't bad. You have to be lvl 20 for the 12d8 damage unfortunately.
Also, I would dispute prototype00s last statement. Behemoth Hippopotamus + Rageshaper (bestial aspect) + Improved Natural Attack + Strong Jaw + Cloak of Fangs. And, as an afterthought, Improved Vital Strike and Furious Finish.
Sure, but some differences between this and the druid:
1. The druid an stay in his form for the entire day, Polymorph and Beast Shape last for a minute per level
2. The Druid can cast his spells thanks to Natural spell (so versatility)
3. The druid can also do this trick, behemoth hippo is all right, but the carnivorous crystal is better.
So a 20th level monk does 2d10 unarmed strike damage (works out to 3d8 in damage progression terms). If you have feral combat training, your claws/slams/bite/whatever does that much damage now.
If you are a huge creature, your unarmed strike is also huge, so 6d8 damage.
If you can cast Strong Jaw, thats 2 more size increases, so 12d8 damage (which is incidentally what a 20th level Colossal Monk would be doing).
No weapon (except for the Carnivorous Crystal's slam attack) will do as much damage as that. And that is the source of the Druid/Monk's power.
Tetori, as the bonus feats and abilities are better.
Maneuver Master lets you tack on a maneuver for free onto a full attack, but if that maneuver is to grapple, you either lose the full attack, or you can't straight off pin (because you've used your standard action already during the full attack).
Its good, I personally prefer the max damage Greater Vital Strike damage with Furious Finish. 500ish damage in a single hit deals with DR quite effectively too, I find.
Emperor Point wrote:
This seems like an interesting character concept but doesn't sound like it would be great at low levels. Is there any advice for what you might do at low level?
Two hand a Shillelaghed Quaterstaff enlarged by the growth domain or cast enlarge person via the strength domain for 3d6 + 1 + 1.5xStr (I recommend 18 strength so 12?)
That's what I did.