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The Manyfaced One

prototype00's page

1,209 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Yeah, Sorry I missed out on updating, I've gotten busy with a game recently and I haven't had the time.

Actually Ohako statted one out for me, Thanks Ohako!


Pounce an be gotten as a Kitsune with vulpine pounce (useable less regularly than regular pounce, possibly).


As a feat pick that you have to be minimum 16th level to take? Sure, that seems reasonable and balanced to be able to take 3 swift action full attacks / day.


It advances the lay on hands amounts, but not the number of times you can do it.


You get wildshape up to 4th level (so medium or small animals), from 6th level onwards, the only thing you advance is the Naga Shape (so no large or huge animals, plants or elementals).


You can get Arcane Strike with the True Strike Spell like ability from the Qinggong Monk.

No huge felines, 9th level Nimble guardian is for Rake, which grants you two extra Claws on a pounce.

Its not the powerhouse a Monk/Druid is, but you get to play one of the most powerful Single Classed Monks out there.


Query, Mark.

For the Naga Aspirant Druid Archetype, which gets this ability:


At 6th level, the naga aspirant can use her wild shape ability (gained at 4th level, as normal) to assume the form of a true naga. This effect functions in a similar manner to a shapechange spell with the following exception. The druid's true naga form is unique, representing her personal evolution. When taking naga form, the nagaji's body transforms into that of a large serpent, though she keeps her own head. The naga aspirant loses her limbs and her size increases by one category, granting her a +4 size bonus to Strength and Constitution, a –2 penalty to Dexterity, and a +2 enhancement bonus to her natural armor bonus. She gains a +10 enhancement bonus to land speed and a bite attack that deals 1d6 points of damage. She can cast verbal spells in this form, but cannot cast spells with other components without metamagic or feats such as Natural Spell.

This ability otherwise works like and replaces wild shape.

Does the Druid's wildshape ability progress past this point (i.e. do they gain huge animal wildshape?)



Lets start with what you want your character to do, pouncing and full attacks or crushing things to death? Once you know this, you can answer how to build them. (Archetype and feat choice is heavily dependent on this).


... 20th level monk damage is 2d10. Its what I based all my calculations on.

Also the monk gets to full attack at the end of a charge, thanks to stuff like pummeling charge or pounce (in Allosaurus form).

Also if I am not mistaken, the value for powerful charge (4d10 in the case of the Tricerotops) is the amount of damage that you deal on a charge, and is not added to the base 2d10 damage.

So yes, I think my monk does a lot better (potentially 5x12d8 attacks versus a single 4d10 attack on a charge) but takes longer to get there.


Ah, you could do a single 12d8 gore on a charge as a Tricerotops with Strong Jaw on, thats not bad.


Base unarmed damage 2d10 (counts as 3d8) -> Huge Sized 6d8 -> Strong Jaw 12d8.


So say I summon a snake (as a 2nd level spell), what will be the DC of its poison? As listed in the monster manual? Or 10+ level of spell + relevant spellcasting modifier of the caster?



To Chaosguy, If you are going lion shaman, then you are going to have to be happy with 6d8 at most as there aren't any huge cats. Only Dinos have huge pouncers.

To Derek, Wildshapes lasts for hours per level, Natural spell allows you to cast during wildshape. With 2 Wildshapes at 8th level, for example, you can be in wildshape for 16 hours per day, which is basically all the time.

So just a dip in monk?

Your unarmed strike damage isn't going to be stellar, but if you're all right with that, then thats fine (3 monk/17 druid will also net you 9th level casting and throw in 8d8 unarmed damage because you now can pick Monastic Legacy).


No, on account of wildshape being a Transmutation (Polymorph) effect and thus not allowing other spells that change size to take effect:

In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.


Well, your best friends here are:

1. The Monk Unarmed Damage Progression (and things that advance it, like a Monk's Robe or Monastic Legacy)


2. Things that increase size (I posit that you can get one "actual" size increase and one "virtual" size increase, as the virtual size increases are all based on your current size and don't seem to stack, another reason I am not in favor of INA).

So around level 10, if you have a Monk's robe and 3 levels of Monk, thats 1d10 unarmed strike damage.

With huge wildshape and Strong Jaw running, thats 6d8 damage. Thats probably good damage for 10th level.

If you can swing Janni Rush, that becomes 12d8 on a charge.

By lvl 20, you hav 12d8 on an unarmed strike and 24d8 on a charge with Janni Rush. Without grappling and constrict, this is probably the upperlimit.

(Or you could have the 56d8 maximized of the conqueror ooze, but that is only for one attack - in that case, the list is Furious Finish and Greater Vital Strike working on a 7d8 base damage natural attack slam).


Derek the Ferret wrote:
Hey, Prototype00, do you have an estimate for when the sample builds are going to be up? I really wanna see some cause this guide is awesome.

Recently switched computers, so slowly transferring stuff over, including the guide and related materials. Sorry about the delay. I'm happy to answer questions in the meantime, but the update might take up till the end of January (as work has picked up).


Hmm, but you lose out on the Scout archetype ability to proc sap master every round.


Nope in my understanding, as you can't target it (no line of sight).


Gregory Connolly wrote:

I like the guide.

I would like to see an updated version of the guide that has builds in it. To me the rest of a guide is fluff and the builds are crunch. Your guide is very entertaining, but I haven't actually learned anything.

Sorry about that, was having way too much fun over my vacation. When things have settled down and I have transferred everything to my new rig, I'll post a next version of the guide with builds.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
It seems prototype00 has reversed himself over the months. It would be interesting to hear about how the author of this...

Well, as I've said, the current face of rules arbritration (Mark Seifter, who presides over faq Friday) has given me his opinion (not an official rules judgement, mind), and I really don't feel like continually swimming against the current on this one. Simple as that.

If I get confirmation from a higher source (like say a faq), I will be more than happy to change it, in the meantime, I would like to keep things simple and straightforward.

Let me get this straight - say you do the underfoot adept/maneuver master build and wildshaped into a huge elemental. If you have the feral combat training feat, can you do your free maneuver master move or two, full attack, and then do the two slams at unarmed strike damage as well (which are...primary attacks so full bab and full str bonus right?) since it isn't a flurry of blows?

Yes, with the caveat that your natural attacks are considered secondary natural attacks, so that is -5 to hit and 1/2 str bonus (or -2 to hit with Multiattack) in a full attack with your unarmed strike.


Ah, my mistake, I thought it gave the same bonuses as the Earth Elemental Form. Still pretty good for Dex based builds (and even better for Fury's Fall I suppose).


Covert Operator wrote:
I noticed you set chokehold to red, but there is a hidden beauty to it: the target is silenced. That means no verbal spells!

You could also just pin them. First thing I'd do really.

On the INA issue, feel free to faq it in the thread, but possibly a new thread would be more visible?

Kastar makes my stance (such that it is, I personally feel it wouldn't be awful to let INA work the other way, as Strong Jaw is what really powers the build and works in any instance) quite clear, which is what I also believe most of the rules queries I have made (I recall one to JJ and one to Mark Seifter) have been answered.

I cannot in good conscience recommend something to players on the basis that some DMs who haven't asked the question of Mark Seifter might let it fly. Better to stand on surer ground.


Ah, just checked, you don't really need knowlege Nature, so everything into Knowledge Planes then?


Well, its Gestalt, so you're probably decent? Take Natural Spell at 5th and Planar Wildshape at 7th and hope for the best? (Start putting points in Knowledge Planes and Knowledge Nature).


Mickey Carver wrote:

So, this character was made before I found this guide.

He is in a gestalt game where you get two classes and by chance I chose monk and druid, not knowing the possibilities.
I've found him rather unsatisfying. And I know it's the character because the game is great.
He is monk of the four winds and Ape shaman.(again before I saw the guide)
Part of the problem is that he had a gorilla animal companion that he was overprotective of and therefore missed out on combat power with.
I recently asked the DM allowance to trade the animal companion for the strength(ferocity) domain.
His feats, bonus or otherwise, are:
Improved unarmed
Elemental fist
Scorpion style
Bleeding attack

How do you suggest making him better? Next is level 3, so he'll be getting a feat then.

So you chose all the worst options (or at least no good to great ones, Scorpion Style is...unfortunate... to say the least) and you want me to make the character better? I guess, follow the guide from now on? There isn't really anything more I can say to help you.

Did you have anything specific you wanted to do? You might have to make a new character to do so but I can help with that.


As far as I understand it, and I am in no way claiming to have all the answers here:

Fist of the Forest:

Unarmed Strike = X
Size increase bonus to unarmed strike damage = 2X
FCT means natural attack = Unarmed Strike Damage = 2X

Natural Attack = X
Unarmed Strike = Y
Improved Natural Attack = 2X
FCT = Unarmed Strike Damage = Y (and not 2Y)

Not that I agree, but I see the logic, I guess.

If you say one thing, and other forumers say another and the current rules guy in residence agrees with them, there is not really much I can say.


Mark Seifter of the design team had this to say to my question:


Hello Mark, hope you are having a good week.

A small question I wanted to ask concerning Feral Combat training, if I may?

So according to a recent faq, if you are a monk and you have feral combat training with a natural attack, you can apply your unarmed strike damage to the natural attack. I.e. if your unarmed strike damage was 1d8 and your claw damage was originally 1d4, and you had feral combat training (claw), your claw damage would become 1d8.

Now if you had Improved Natural Attack (Claw), would that 1d8 damage that the claw is now doing be adjusted to 2d6 as if you were one size larger as per the Improved Natural Attack feat description?

Thanks so much for the answer (whichever it might be).


Since you're replacing with the unarmed damage, I would think it wouldn't help.

Since I'd rather deal in more sure ways to power, rather than tricks DMs might outlaw, I elected to give it the grade I did. If it does work, great, faq it quick, please.


Lune wrote:
prototype00 wrote: you can effectively fight other opponents around you while grappling anyway.
Is that actually true? I have to admit that despite the simplification Pathfinder brought to the grappling rules that it still remains one of the most complicated sections of the rules. I could have totally mistaken the grappling rules. How is this accomplished?

I was mostly going off this:

At 4th level, he suffers no penalties on attack rolls, can make attacks of opportunity while grappling, and retains his Dexterity bonus to AC when pinning an opponent or when grappled.

Of course you're going to want rapid grapple to fully utilize this.

Good build Kastar, unfortunately I don't think that Brawlers can use their Natural Attacks with Brawler's flurry due to the wording of FCT.


Ah, thats pretty good then. It probably goes on the same tier as Saurian Shaman due to you being able to miss out on Natural spell (eventually, you can retrain it or something).


Deadmanwalking wrote:
A Goliath Druid can use compsognathus form to scout stealthily. Or pteranodon form to fly. Still lacks a tiny flying form, but it's not completely screwed on either front.

So as to keep the guide as simple as possible, I will opt not to cover 3rd party resources, if that is all right. I had thought the Goliath druid was Pathfinder core, but evidently not.


Inspired by this guide i actually decided to create a Nagaji Druid Fist of Fury!

However my character is joining the campaign at level 4 and so doesn't have all of its stuff. At first i thought i would take straight druid to have wild shape straight away but that doesn't actually seem to make me very tough, would it be smarter to go 2 in Druid, 2 in Tetori Monk then return to druid after that? Also what feats should i take at low level?

You probably want a level of Tetori Monk (for Improved Grapple for free), and then 3 levels of Naga Aspirant (so you can go Naga at 6th level with a pick of Shaping Focus at 5th level, delays Natural Spell to 7th level, however, ah well).

After you take your 4 levels of Naga Aspirant, revert to Monk for the next 5 levels to pick up Greater Grapple for free.

As to low level feats, it would be mostly the same combat feats that most monks druids will take (Weapon focus (Improved Unarmed Strike) etc, as you can effectively fight other opponents around you while grappling anyway. I actually don't have any specific advice for this, anyone else want to chime in? Grabbing style will be useful, but a high level pick.

By the by, thanks for the patience with the guide, I am enjoying my holiday so far, but there will be a stretch where I am on the road, so we'll see about putting a bit more in then.


pathfinderOGC, right? They don't have the rights to official Pathfinder god names, so they sub in stuff. Bronze Gong is Irori's specific channel foci, it would be strange if his worshippers couldn't use it.


Ooh, I'll check it out. Sorry the guide has been slow, DA:I has been claiming the lions share of my time.

Stir wrote:

Yeah, pretty broken. Probable nerf-bait?

Eh, I don't know. They faq-ed it less than a year ago. They obviously thought the Feral Combat Training feat wasn't good enough.


Stir wrote:

Wow, lotsa very interesting ideas!

But (there's always a but) I'm a little uncomfortable with your take on Feral Combat Training:

'treat all of them as your Unarmed Strike with regard to feats, Magic Items, Magic Spells etc and damage (if your unarmed strike damage is higher) ... '

Here's the feat description:

"Feral Combat Training (Combat)

You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.

Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.

Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.

Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature."

I read the last part of the Benefits section as '... as well as effects of feats that augment ...' (I think my two added words 'of feats' are strongly implied). A more liberal reading would take 'effects' to include spells and/or items that augment unarmed strike. I can't see how a class feature (i.e. the scaling of damage with unarmed strike) can be considered an effect. Also note that other weapons which can be used in a monk's FoB do not have scaling damage.

I'm looking forward to your completed guide!

Hey, I don't blame ya, I thought that was a bit of a stretch too, until this faq:


Feral Combat Training and Unarmed Strike Damage: Does this allow me to use my monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack?

Yes. The feat says you can apply "effects that augment an unarmed strike," and the monk's increased unarmed damage counts as such.

Crazy, huh?


Papa-DRB wrote:

Yea, but as a Druid 7 (strong jaw) / Monk 10 (at max in the campaign I am prepping for), a monk does 1d10, more likely a step down from that.

I do not understand what you mean by "damage progression". What damage progression?

-- david

Monk 10 + Monk's Robe = 15 levels (2d6 damage) + Monastic Legacy (3 extra monk levels from 7 levels of Druid) = 2d8 damage

With Strong Jaw and Huge Wildshape, thats 8d8 damage, which isn't bad. You have to be lvl 20 for the 12d8 damage unfortunately.

Also, I would dispute prototype00s last statement. Behemoth Hippopotamus + Rageshaper (bestial aspect) + Improved Natural Attack + Strong Jaw + Cloak of Fangs. And, as an afterthought, Improved Vital Strike and Furious Finish.

Sure, but some differences between this and the druid:

1. The druid an stay in his form for the entire day, Polymorph and Beast Shape last for a minute per level

2. The Druid can cast his spells thanks to Natural spell (so versatility)

3. The druid can also do this trick, behemoth hippo is all right, but the carnivorous crystal is better.


So a 20th level monk does 2d10 unarmed strike damage (works out to 3d8 in damage progression terms). If you have feral combat training, your claws/slams/bite/whatever does that much damage now.

If you are a huge creature, your unarmed strike is also huge, so 6d8 damage.

If you can cast Strong Jaw, thats 2 more size increases, so 12d8 damage (which is incidentally what a 20th level Colossal Monk would be doing).

No weapon (except for the Carnivorous Crystal's slam attack) will do as much damage as that. And that is the source of the Druid/Monk's power.


Tetori, as the bonus feats and abilities are better.

Maneuver Master lets you tack on a maneuver for free onto a full attack, but if that maneuver is to grapple, you either lose the full attack, or you can't straight off pin (because you've used your standard action already during the full attack).


Lune wrote:

Mmm... I think I may have just broke something.

I have potentially two questions.

1. Does Feral Combat Training work with Pummeling Style? I read the errata to both and I believe it does.

2. Assuming the answer to 1. is a "yes" ... did I just make the Conquerer Ooze build top the DPR meters?

Being able to charge, full attack with a flurry of uberslam, free action trip and do everything else that slam can do (stunning fist, etc) seems very powerful. Very. Powerful.

PS. Welcome back, prototyp00!

Its good, I personally prefer the max damage Greater Vital Strike damage with Furious Finish. 500ish damage in a single hit deals with DR quite effectively too, I find.


Emperor Point wrote:
This seems like an interesting character concept but doesn't sound like it would be great at low levels. Is there any advice for what you might do at low level?

Two hand a Shillelaghed Quaterstaff enlarged by the growth domain or cast enlarge person via the strength domain for 3d6 + 1 + 1.5xStr (I recommend 18 strength so 12?)

That's what I did.


Oterisk wrote:
I think you might have missed the Dragon Style feats in your actual feat section. Was this intentional? I know you actually comment on it in other places, but it's curiously missing from the feat section.

Ah, I must have missed that, embarrassing. I'll get to it when I need to take a break from Dragon Age.


Could one of your builds be a fairly simple Druid (Saurian Shaman) / Monk build?

Final character level will be 17.
Saurian Shaman does not get Wildshape till Druid 6.

I am just wondering what levels to take in what order,

That's easy! (Because I'm playing one.)

1 monk -> 6 levels of Druid (rush for that huge wildshape) -> 1 more level of Druid (For Strong Jaw) -> Any combination of Monk or Druid.

But I'll put the build in the guide.


You could just download it? Its a pdf.


Mark Seifter wrote:

An intriguing question. It depends on two things.

1) Is ordinary vision an extraordinary ability? Because you definitely lose darkvision and keen senses. One would assume you would lose regular vision too. I mean, from where do you see? However it may not be the case depending on that question.

2) Is blindsense considered a "lesser version" of blindsight? If so, you would at least get blindsense, though you still can't target things you aren't touching and have a 50% miss chance, so that isn't perfect.

Neither of these is clear, though I'm slightly inclined toward the strict answers being Yes and No, but I could go either way on it.

Thanks very much for the reply, I do feel sorry for all the potential players who wanted to play the archetype but are automatically struck blind by its most iconic ability.

However the issue has been faq-ed enough on the forums that the Design Team will attend to it in due course, so I am content to wait upon that.


The immunity to fatigue is probably the important component from Martial Artist, not the "can be any alignment".


Actually I just realized that Hunter lets you use a lesser echoing metamagic rod with Strong Jaw instead of an echoing one. That's something at least (you'd to store those off body when you Wildshape and shift into something with opposable thumbs and a voice).


Hello Mark, Hope you enjoyed Turkey Day!

Just wanted to ask a quick question. Say a 10th level Druid with the Cave Druid archetype Wildshapes into an ooze as per their class ability:

A cave druid gains this ability at 6th level, except that her effective druid level for this ability is equal to her druid level –2. She cannot use wild shape to adopt a plant form. At 10th level, the cave druid can assume the form of a Small or Medium ooze as if using beast shape III, and at 12th level that of a Tiny or Large ooze as if using beast shape IV (treating the ooze as if it were a magical beast without a natural armor bonus). When in ooze form, the cave druid has no discernible anatomy and is immune to poison, sneak attacks, and critical hits.

Are they automatically blind because oozes have no eyes and they don't gain the Ooze's blindsight ability as per the Wildshape rules?

Thanks for the help,


Its not bad. Some of the spells I want as a druid I get as a lower level as a Hunter like Strong Jaw (but due to worse spellcasting progression, you get it at lvl 7, just the same as a druid).

Mostly the many good Druid archetypes are marginally better than the one Feral Hunter Hunter archetype.

Its a choice thing, really.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

So small update this time (was slightly ill this weekend), I've finished the Style feats and put in the skills.

Traits will be next.



Nothing to add except Have you considered the Daring Champion archetype of the Cavalier? Except same abilities as the Swashbuckler (well the ones you are looking for at any rate), better HD and challenge damage.


Nyaa wrote:
Would it be possible to write builds first and place them at the beginning of the guide?

To what end? Those who are new to this kind of build would like to see the basics laid out first, I feel. Also, traditionally, most guides have their builds after the exposition.

There are quite a few guides on both Monk and Druid, and all Druid guides follow Optimization Commandment №1.

For general optimization, sure. "Thou shalt not give up Caster Levels" is useful. For optimizing something specifically (in this case unarmed strike/natural attack damage), some sacrifices have to be made.

Also, I'll let you guys in on a secret. Best druid self buffing spells? You get by lvl 4 (Strong Jaw). A Druid/Monk can happily take 10 levels of druid (for Huge Elemental Wildshape with Shaping focus) and still not feel inferior to his more casterly brethren.

Of course for those of you who want 9th level spells, there is a build that gets that and 8d8 unarmed strike damage too, fret not.


How do the Elementals see then? They don't have eyes either. Druids shifting into Elementals must be, by default, blind then.


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