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Pathfinder Society Member. 673 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 4 Pathfinder Society characters.


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hmm, maybe I'll saunter over to the rules forum and see what's been hashed out over there.

really? I can't have two arms for grappling (which avoids the -4), and another holding a dan bong (which gives you a +2, not that you're actually hitting anyone with it). That doesn't work now?

Or, how about two-handing a, I dunno, a spear, and saving an arm for Crane Style? Or Snapping Turtle Clutch? Or Archon Style?

If you're grappling someone, presumably you're doing that with two arms. You've got an arm or two free to use Snapping Turtle Clutch, right? (You're not gaining a free immediate action, you're just using a power that you otherwise couldn't use). Once you have two bad guys in a grapple, well, unless you get two grapple checks in the round, you'll have to let one of them go, I suppose. Same as if you full-attack with white witch hair.

That's a no go, really?

one concept I have kicking around is a monk who uses extra arms to

a) do funky things in combat
b) pose for Vudrani sculptors, I guess?

anyway, you can get those extra arms by putting a 2 dip into alchemist, and taking the Vestigial Arm discovery twice. Now, monk and alchemist really don't go together, but you could go mutagenic mauler brawler instead of monk, and that works out as well as can be.


alchemist (archetype??) 2/mutagenic mauler X
one feat reserved: Extra Discovery
and it's not PFS legit and an alchemist probably doesn't qualify for it anyway, but if there's a feat to spare, take Eye of the Arclord. four arms, three eyes, what's not to like?

Here's the thing: there's nothing you can do with those extra arms when it comes to fighting that you couldn't do already anyway (Multiweapon Fighting is out, Medusa's Wrath doesn't benefit from it, etc.), except for 'one free hand' shenanigans.

I need some suggestions for what to do in a fight with extra arms that does not involve attacking with them. Like maybe grappling two guys at once, using Snapping Turtle Clutch? Or grappling with two hands and using a dan bong as well?

What are some other good ideas?

here's a q

the 'SLA ruling' allows for interesting ways of qualifying for, say, mystic theurge earlier than normal (so-called 'early entry').

people play with this for two years.

now it's gone.


or, to put it another way, why not sooner?

hi Breq

first, love the username

second, I love this build. very nice.

third, I can see how you get 3 natural attacks (songbird starts with one, and you aspect of the beast for the other two (although I think that feat goes online at level 8, which is your first chance to take a slayer talent)) oh, I see, you don't flurry or anything, you just treat all those as secondary, and use iterative punches for your other three. got it.

fourth, so, does an Iroran paladin have to worship Irori? the ring of seven lovely colors doesn't look like it requires Shelyn worship, but those two are compatible, to a point

(So, you devoted yourself to physical perfection in part by polymorphing into a little birdy?)

Is there a way of getting a songbird familiar glued to this build? Because nothing helps a polymorph build like confusing bad guys as to which bird will kill you...

Scythia wrote:

I use and allow exactly what you're talking about in my games. If someone commissions an item, it will be keyed to them in some way (most often by race, alignment, gender, or ability).

Gender? Really? Like, I have this sword here, and it can only be used by men? What kind of crazy sword is that? Is it like a woman bane sword?

(Not that the elixir of transition doesn't exist in Pathfinder, it's in the ACG, but anyway)

Screw it, let's just have a magic portcullis that only opens for dudes and call it the gamer gate.

hmm, a nifty guide. If you're still interested in updating it, check out the feat Surprise Follow-Through. For all those Cleave/sneak attack builds out there.

I statted up a character I called Pirate Detective Mantis Punch, which sounds silly, but the build is trying to maximize output on the feat Merciless Butchery.

a) you get +5d6 sneak attack as fast as possible
b) get Stunning Fist somehow
c) take Merciless Butchery, and CdG enemies you stun as a swift action.

Does it win the DPR Olympics? nope. Does it command vast arcane energies? nope. Is it both a pirate and a detective? yup.

honestly, why not just pass them around, you know, tell your summons this

'try to help out that guy on his turn'.

and then just have the other party members control some summons

share the fun, yeah?

here's a common setup

race: halfling
class: cavalier
order: order of the paw

Okay, I have to choose dog or wolf as my mount, and since dog is a 4th level option, I choose wolf

starting strength: 13
starting carrying capacity: 75 lbs.

The average halfling male weighs 35 lbs. Add to that a suit of 1st-level armor, let's say scale mail, adds another 15 lbs.

So, here we have an armored halfling mounted on a wolf. He's got 25 lbs to spare for things like weapons, a backpack, etc. right?


riding saddle: 25 lbs

So there's 75 lbs. Boom. Any weapons at all, and the mount is encumbered. And yeah, there's wiggle room here, it's true

a) play a female halfling, they're lighter
b) wear kikko instead of scale, it's a little lighter
c) at higher levels, the mount gets stronger, and you can afford mithral armor, etc. It's doable.

Still, two questions

1. To ride a wolf, do you need a regular riding saddle, or an exotic riding saddle?
2. Is a saddle supposed to be the same weight regardless of size? RAW, I believe they are.

FAQ clicks appreciated, if you like.

hmm, I track encumbrance, sure.

then I tried to put together a crack team of halfling wolf-riders, and guess what? exotic saddles don't reduce in weight when they go down in size. So all my poor woolvsies are encumbered :(

I guess encumbrance is okay when it makes sense for the story, but when there's a whole cavalier order set aside for just this thing and you start out encumbered? meh.

1 person marked this as a favorite.

counts as for what? in UE, the weapon part of a klar is listed as a one-handed slashing weapon.

So, pull the blade part off the skull? Go nuts with a blackblade and Slashing Grace. Stick it back on the skull? You're toast.

Do I have that right?

Oh, here's more fun

Ultimate Equipment wrote:
Klar:The traditional form of this tribal weapon is a short metal blade bound to the skull of a large horned lizard, but a skilled smith can craft one entirely out of metal. A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes; a metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes.

Please tell me what armor spikes are doing on a shield?

1. A klar is a weapon that is also a shield.
2. The weapon part is a one-handed weapon.
3. The shield part is also a spiked shield (which is itself a light weapon), meaning that you could enchant the blade, the spikes, and the shield separately!

Hmmm, you could even TWF with a single klar, without even needing to bother with Thunder and Fang. How neat is that?

A pity you can't stack bladecound with skirnir. Ah well, you can't have everything...I say mix that Conan chocolate and Elric peanut butter and go to town! I dub thee: Conric!

I'd summon one that was a puppet to my own disassociative identity disorder (ie 'I' am the eidolon, and that footstool over there casts healing spells once in a while). I have nooo idea if my eidolon would be cool doing that (especially if my alignment includes 'Chaotic').

okay, here's version 3: now with thug!

race: focused study human
traits: Reactionary (or Tireless), Indomitable Faith
stats (20 points): Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 7
levels 1 - 12

1 snakebite striker brawler
2 thug rogue
3 thug rogue
4 thug rogue
5 vanguard slayer
6 sleepless detective
7 inner sea pirate
8 martial artist monk
9 snakebite striker brawler
10 martial artist monk
11 snakebite striker brawler
12 martial artist monk

the difference here is human instead of half-elf for the extra skill points (you could take Multitalented Mastery and spend your FCB on skill points, but then you're down a feat). This nets you an extra skill you can max: Intimidate. So now you can Bluff to feint and Intimidate to demoralize.

feats 1 - 12 (I'll mark non-bonus feats with a *)
1 *Enforcer, Skill Focus (Intimidate), Improved Unarmed Strike
2 --
3 *Combat Expertise, Improved Feint (you could feint with Visceral Threat, but it's too expensive feat-wise to get there. also a fighting fan gives a bonus to Bluff to feint, not to any skill to feint)
4 --
5 *Alertness
6 --
7 *Dastardly Finish (muhuhaha!)
8 Stunning Fist, Dodge, Skill Focus (Bluff)
9 *Merciless Butchery, Mantis Style, Two-Weapon Fighting
10 Deflect Arrows
11 *Mantis Wisdom
12 --

So now here's what you do

round 1
swift: enter Mantis Style
move: use studied target
standard: snake feint (to get within melee range and feint at the same time)

round 2
standard: attack with nonlethal unarmed strike with Stunning Fist. Attempt to demoralize and sicken, and so the Stunning Fist save is at -4
swift: Merciless Butchery with a fighting fan
move: use studied target on someone else...

and so on

good gear

a fighting fan
a brawling mithral breastplate
a masterwork buckler
an amulet of mighty fists

any further suggestions?

adamantine is less expensive than mithral by weight. If you used them as currency, it'd be 6 gp to the 1 'adamantine piece', and 10 gp to the 1 'mithral piece'.

Which leads to the question: why do mithral and platinum have the same value by weight, if mithral is way more useful?


eh, don't do that, just take the slayer talent ranger combat style: two-weapon fighting, and get your Cleave on that way.

uh...this build doesn't use slayer levels to get any sneak attack. It just needs studied target to qualify for Merciless Butchery. Also there's some nice armor and weapon proficiencies in that one level as well.

Shane, is your villain going to run a decentralized pesh smuggling network by any chance? I wonder if there's an escrow spell kicking around somewhere.

hmm, I was trying to stay within the bounds of PFS (so no vivi, no assassin), but what the heck, this build might be useful as a villain at some point. (hmm, I also have reservations about using a character that tries to be awesome at CdG as a villain against PCs)


yes. this build is all over the place. it relies on lots of multiclassing in order to get sneak attack dice as quickly as possible. Then it uses a bag more of multiclassing in order to make up for lost feats.

my current build would have 5 stunning fist attempts/day by level 9, 6 with a monk's robe. (3 monk levels (brawlers count) = 3, 6 non-monk levels = 1, Mantis Style = 1). Can I get that to go any higher?

1 snakebite striker brawler
2 vivisectionist alchemist
3 rogue
4 vanguard slayer

ooh, uh, it looks like the vivisectionist alchemist doesn't really add sneak attack, it sort of stacks with rogue levels for sneak attack. So a rogue 1/vivisectionist 1 has only +1d6 sneak, not +2d6. Let's try again

1 snakebite striker brawler
2 rogue
3 rogue
4 rogue
5 vanguard slayer
6 assassin
7 inner sea pirate

at this point I have +5d6 sneak at level 7, enough to take Dastardly Finish, but I've only got 1 monk level. The rest of the build as-is is nothing but monk.

The assassin prestige class is something I hadn't considered. It certainly fits with the theme of the build, that's for sure.

Advanced Class Guide wrote:

Merciless Butchery:

Prerequisites: Dastardly Finish, sneak attack +5d6, studied target class feature.
Benefit: As a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, you can attempt a coup de grace against a cowering, helpless, or stunned opponent that you have designated as your studied target.

so, if you were a single-classed slayer, you could qualify for this hideousness at, what, 17th level?

How about 9th? This build goes to 12th level, after which your GM will only let you fight oozes or robots, sorry...also, I am assuming that the bonus feat abilities you get from monk and brawler 'stack' (that is, 'bonus combat feat' is not the same as 'bonus feat'). If they don't, then knock off Dodge and Deflect Arrows.

race: half-elf (or wary half-elf, why not?)
traits: Elven Reflexes, Indomitable Faith
stats (20 points): Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 7
levels 1 - 12

1 snakebite striker brawler
2 rogue (you could take poisoner rogue for theme points, but +1 vs. traps ain't terrible)
3 rogue
4 rogue
5 vanguard slayer (pick your favorite archetype, you can't afford the Survival skill)
6 sleepless detective (all those rogue levels let you qualify for pirate and detective both at level 6, take detective first for the extra +1 to Will)
7 inner sea pirate
8 martial artist monk (you could pick a different monk archetype, but you have to change your alignment first, inner sea pirate requires non-lawful)
9 snakebite striker brawler
10 martial artist monk
11 snakebite striker brawler (snakey feinting, not bad)
12 martial artist monk (+1 Stunning Fist DC, also a good capper)

this leaves you with +8 BaB, +8 Fort, +13 Ref, and +6 Will. This ain't terrible as a '3/4 BaB' class straight, it's -1 from that. Unfortunately, there's 4 levels in there where your BaB stays at +4. No one said pirate detective mantis punching bad guys was easy! Anyway, all the nutty multiclassing gets you +5d6 sneak attack by level 7.

feats 1 - 12 (I'll mark non-bonus feats with a *)
1 *Alertness, Skill Focus (Bluff), Improved Unarmed Strike
2 --
3 *Combat Expertise, Improved Feint (so at this point you're a feint rogue, things could be worse at this level)
4 --
5 *Toughness (I had Multitalented Mastery here, but Toughness nets you more hp. Pick your favorite feat here, I guess)
6 --
7 *Dastardly Finish (muhuhaha!)
8 Stunning Fist, Dodge
9 *Merciless Butchery, Mantis Style, Two-Weapon Fighting
10 Deflect Arrows
11 *Mantis Wisdom
12 --

important items
a monk's robe
a fighting fan, which could be your main weapon or not (Mantis Wisdom only gives you +2 to hit with an unarmed Stunning Fist, boo!)

basic thing to do. Say a bad guy is standing next to you.

1 move action, make them your studied target
2 standard action, attack with a stunning fist (punch or ki focus fan, one of those)
3 if the attack and the stun land, swift action coup de grace with the fan (it's got a x3 multiplier!)

Or over two rounds, study the first round, and feint the second.

How's that? Any room for improvement?

Mark Seifter wrote:

OK guys, I'm back and recovering from my trip, so I'm going to start answering stuff.

@decoy ring: I hadn't paid close attention to this item, but it looks really poorly written.

Welcome back!

Thanks for the input. I guess the decoy ring used the bracers of falcon's aim as a...decoy!

Every time something poorly written sneaks into a Paizo product, a gelatinous cube falls prone.

I think you can buy masterwork torches. They'd be, you know, masterwork. +2 to Profession (lamplighter) checks or similar. They'd still burn if you lit one on fire, though. It's a consumable melee weapon.

So, sure, I think you can buy a masterwork torch. And if it's a weapon, then you can enchant it (I remember there was some debate about this point: enchanting improvised weapons). But once you light it on fire, you've got an hour to enjoy it, I think. Kinda rough when it comes to magic items.

You know, a way around that would be to play an Asmodean magus, and enchant your torch with arcane pool points. That's halfway decent.

Perhaps you could convince a GM to let you put a burning coal into a battle aspergillum, and then you could barbecue bad guys with it...

my experiences so far. I am playing in PFS with a half-orc rogue built around the Surprise Follow-Through feat. I am multiclassing slayer for 2 levels, then it's straight rogue from then out. So far I have conquered levels 1 and 2.

1. Having lots of skill points is great. At level 1 I was missing some skills (Swim in particular), and then I was able to budget for 1 point at level 2. I can climb and swim and jump and pick locks and sneak around and be perceptive and cut down trees and eat my lunch and pick wild flowers and and and. Maybe higher levels will change this, but maybe not

2. I have really enjoyed the tactics of being a rogue. My job (so far) has been the guy to end the fight. Sure, having a munchkin-level heavens oracle around is great for messing up bad guys (or even a wizard with stumble gap), but they all have Str 7, and probably couldn't drown a kitten if they tried. Will this change at higher level? I dunno. You can't color spray everything.

3. It is not my job to save my bacon, or to be impervious to everything. I'm well-prepared, but I'm not invulnerable. Also, bards are great, but they're not great if I'm not around.

4. Why did I multiclass slayer? I didn't do it for the slower sneak progression: I did it for the armor proficiency, the weapon proficiency and the class skills. I honestly thought about taking the rogue talent survivalist until the slayer came along. Now I can rock a mithral breastplate and have decent ranks in Survival and Heal, and still get a nice perk from studied target. I could wield a greatsword if I felt like it, or not be an idiot with a kerambit or a tube arrow shooter. That's not nothing. If I had to pick something I didn't like about the rogue, it was missing useful stuff like this that other classes get for free.

5. I am prepared to do lots of different things to get sneak attack. I can flank (and have the militia trait), I'm going to be good when charging or moving (at level 6 and 10, but still), I've got Surprise Follow-Through coming online at level 4, etc. And you know, that's a lot of thought and optimizing for what I want to do. But it's also the way I want to play. If I played a beefy barbarian guy, what's the GM going to do? That barb is always going to be smacking face, so you put up some other big number to get in the barb's way. A rogue in that same slot makes the game about tactics and positioning, which is fun! It's why you don't roll dice in chess.

How's that?

Let's say you're like The Ventriloquist (the Batman villain). You're a summoner, you're hiding behind or holding an eidolon, and here's what you've got

Advanced Player's Guide wrote:
Link (Ex): A summoner and his eidolon share a mental link allows for communication across any distance (as long as they are on the same plane). This communication is a free action, allowing the summoner to give orders to his eidolon at any time.

Okay, instant communication/orders across the dimension. Good for when you cast unfetter, I guess.

Can you tell your eidolon, as a free action, 'Say threat X to this guy, and menace him by shaking your fist thusly and stamping your foot in such-and-such manner'? Who rolls the Intimidate check, the summoner, or the eidolon?

Or, to put it another way

Let's sat that the link ability is one step up from a wizard's familiar's empathic link, such that emotion and language can be perfectly transmitted. Can an eidolon perfectly mimic that communication to others?

cool. thanks for the item list. none of those are really good for an eidolon with Bodyguard, other than possibly wasting a ton of money on a pricey benevolent bracers of armor. Still, thanks for the list.

...try searching the word 'helpful' on this forum...

Helpful either gives you a +3 on aid another results (not checks), or +4 (if you're a halfling or your eidolon was adopted by one).

Traits are worth 1/2 a feat.

Is there a feat version of Helpful?

hmm, I ran this a while ago. As written, kind of lame. I spiced it up by (no kidding) writing a 'forest tile random generator' in Java and building the terrain 'on the fly'. Forests as written give enemies a lot of chances to get cover or concealment.

I think a chase would be fun, certainly (mixing chase with combat), or running it like 'beat the boar across some obstacles three times and drive it into a spike pit'. Sounds like you've got some good ideas already.

Can't you also use that reborn forge module as your retirement arc?

sounds like you need a bard. also sounds like interesting races are open. about an Ifrit bard using Fire Music?

fire elemental sorcerer 1/bard 7, take Fire Music and summon monster spells

a) your summons get to be the front line/flank buddies
b) inspire courage
c) Fire Music, which can be fun
d) lore, good knowledge checks
e) sport some freaky glowing tattoos
f) take the fire insight alternate racial, and hope that Fire Music lets your summons last longer?
g) cast shout, and call it 'sound and fiery, signifying nothing'. then take Perform (act) and misquote Shakespeare with fire/heat puns all day

Str 11, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 15


So, I'm plotting out spell selection for a summoner that really relies on the eidolon as a physical melee combatant using natural weapons (shocker).

There are a bunch of spells that mimic the effect of magic items, especially the big 6.

Pro using magic items
you get more interesting spell choices, and you get more actions to use them rather than for regular buffs
you can upgrade magic items in a way where some spells don't scale

Pro using spells
you can keep your magic items for yourself
it's cheaper
maybe a GM would restrict a non-bipedal eidolon's use of magic items according to the Animal Archive

let's lay the apples and oranges on the table

amulet of mighty fists - magic fang or greater magic fang
amulet of natural armor - if you're using magic fang, then you could add this amulet, or you could just cast barkskin
bracers of armor - mage armor or shield
ring of protection - protection from evil or magic circle against evil
cloak of resistance - same as above
belt of giant strength - bull's strength or mass bull's strength

So, questions

1. Is it always better to use spells to mimic the big 6, and keep the magic items for yourself? Or the reverse?
2. If the answer to the above question is 'neither' or 'it depends', then what's your preferred spells vs. magic items layout?
3. Aside from the big 6, are there other magic item vs. spell choices that such a summoner would need to make?

I just wrote up a summoner myself. Not, like, some wacky blood summoner of doom and fluffy bunnies. Just a summoner. And no weird spell choices or anything, really. Kinda neat, you know, haste as a 2nd-level spell, a big green!

hmm, maybe it depends on the breath weapon?

I could see a cold breath working, sure...but not an acid breath. Like maybe fire could be okay, but not, say, some sort of poison gas or little shards of crystals or whatever.

So, I'd say, 'it depends'

andreww wrote:

I have no idea about the rest but as an area based spell wall of fire doesnt require line of sight. It only requires line of effect. You can define the location in which it comes into effect by, for example, specifying a location based on distance. The relevant section of the PRD is in the Magic chapter under aiming a spell.

shows what I know. I figure you'd want to see what you're doing when setting up a flaming barrier of death. great!

oh, one more fridged summoner question

5. If you're a small summoner hanging out in a backpack or a familiar satchel or what-have-you, are you considered adjacent to your eidolon? And just like 'you're mounted, so you're in all 4 squares', are you also in all 4 squares if you're in a backpack?

teamwork feats, eidolon-specific feats, etc.

Hi Mark, here's another pile of happy little rules questions.

You may wonder why I'm asking you these (in addition to posting in the real rules forum): it's because my 'occasionally every other Thursday' times to actually play Pathfinder are with your old PFS crew in Boston. I figure asking you first will probably be better than trying to hash it out at a table where the slot is 3.5 hours anyway. I don't really know if your take is given any weight there, but it doesn't hurt to assume that.

Dumb questions about the decoy ring

1. Do you get invisibility as the spell, or regular old invisibility? i.e, does it pop when you attack or not?
2. Can you tell your illusionary duplicates to do anything specific with their three rounds of life? (maybe stay in the same square and act like a mirror image, maybe turn around after one round and make *pshht* *pshht* noises like they're firing arrows, whatever)
3. Is it one save to disbelieve the duplicates, or four?
4. This one is for figments in general: how do they bluff? Let's say one gets shot with an arrow (or four decoys acting like a mirror image where one gets shot). If you're concentrating on it, do you make a Bluff check for acting? A Stealth check to stay in front of the arrow (which is somewhere else)? If you're not concentrating on it, do you get any check at all?
5. Can you do a withdraw action out of combat? Like: act like Snagglepuss all the time. 'Exit stage left, even!' Could you instruct your illusionary duplicates to have a foot race in the direction you came from (so as not to tip off anything in front of you)?

Dumb questions about small summoners

1. Can a large eidolon carry a small summoner in a scaled-up backpack? Is this considered squeezing? Aside from squeezing penalties or not, is the summoner restricted from any action? (A backpack that's sized for a Large character might be 2'7" x 2'6" x 2'6", which is big enough to hold a halfling, but small enough that the halfling's head pokes out).
2. Same question as #1, but with a scaled-up familiar satchel instead? A familiar satchel is 'armored'. How much armor, and is it metal?
3. If you're being carried in a container by another character (or eidolon, or whatever), do you count as equipment for the purposes of teleportation or saving against fireballs or things like that?
4. It's action-inefficient to do this, but say the following

a) you're stuffed in a big familiar satchel, and can't see out of it.
b) you use your bond senses power one round to look through the eyes of your eidolon
c) on your next action, you cast wall of fire, or something else you'd need to define with sight that you don't yourself possess.

Does that work?

Diego Rossi wrote:

ohako wrote:

'Hisss, I thought I turned this poor shlub to stone, but now there's 4 of him running off in different directions....ahh...I think I'll just swing my hammer around where I thought I stoned him.'

Very metagamey unless you can make a Knowledge arcana roll good enough to know that that kind of ring exist.

A more credible reaction from a reasonably intelligent guy: "Damn, it is some kind of modified mirror image, one is true and the other decoys. I make a perception check, some of those guys are leaving tracks or making noises?"
Sure , if you have used a single target spell and you know it has worked (and the rules say: "Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell...

I'm on the fence on this one actually. A reasonable dude would say, 'Some of these are illusionary duplicates'. I think just thinking that is enough interaction to warrant a save, and I don't think you save against them one at a time, you save against all or none.

If I could tell my illusionary duplicates anything, it would be this: move in the same square. Either they would be able to react to getting hit by having one of them pop and the rest make ouchie noises, or if they blur a little it ends up just looking like mirror image (which can't be disbelieved).

The biggest tell the illusions are fake is this guy.

'Hey, I just saw this rogue with a greataxe run off in four different directions, where did this invisible rogue with a greataxe come from?'

Let's say I'm a small halfling being carried around in a backpack by my large eidolon. And, say, I'd rather have the eidolon be my 'face' instead of me. Is there any way other than the spell ventriloquism (and, I suppose, the synthesist archetype) to make it seem as if the eidolon is talking instead of me?

Dafydd wrote:
As for your questions, yes, 4 gold, and they need to squeeze to fit in (I would also give them total cover any turn they spend inside the bag, partial on any turn they stick their head up)

Hmm, how about using a sized-up familiar satchel? A regular one fits a Tiny creature. Would one subjected to enlarge person be able to fit a Small creature? (with no squeezing even?)

the smallest possible halfling weighs 27 lbs, and is 2'8" tall. IRL, you can get personal 'baby backpacks' that let you carry teeny little people like this. Anyway...

A Pathfinder backpack can hold 2 cubic feet of material. That's 2' x 1' x 1'. That's probably not enough space. So, let's scale it up. Since a creature's height doubles and weight goes up by a factor of 8 when they go up a size category, let's say that works for the backpack being carried by someone enchanted by enlarge person.

So, an enlarged backpack can carry 16 cubic feet of material, or 4' x 2' x 2'. A halfling definitely fits in this space.


1. Can a bipedal eidolon carry and wear a properly sized non-magical backpack?
2. What is the price of a backpack sized for a Large bipedal creature?
3. What happens to a summoner if it is being carried? Since 4' x 2' x 2' is definitely smaller than a halfling's usual 5' x 5' x 5', is this considered squeezing?

Hmm, if it is squeezing, you could make a Large-sized backpack with a volume of 2'7" x 2'6" x 2'6" (this is just about half a square's worth of volume) and still get 16 cubic feet. That leaves our halfling with just about enough space to poke her head out of the bag and cast a spell or two.

Uwotm8 wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

You really need more than 3 rounds of improved invisibility in a fight?

And they are 3 rounds. The norm is that a item or spell use one standard action to be activated. And you get the benefit of invisibility for AoO and against attacks for the 3 whole rounds.
You go invisible at the beginning of the withdraw action. The first whole round is subsumed in executing that action. You only gain two actionable rounds to do things of your own choosing such as making attacks or casting spells. Two effective rounds to let you do things rather than the 7 minimum that we should have from a simple casting of the spell that only takes a standard action. That's a huge shift between the two items. It's not about need. It's about the usefulness of the item in a compare/contrast with a 20,000 gp item and a 12,000 gp one whose construction spells do different things. The value proposition is very different between them.

Yup! You get three rounds if you get knocked unconscious, but only two if you withdraw first. However,

You could use the feat Cut Your Losses to grab something during your withdraw round.
You could still attack, using the otherwise lackluster Parting Shot.

Imagine two rounds of +sneak attack damage, the opponent is denied Dex, and you get an additional +2 to attack. Now imagine this with a pair of sniper goggles.

The other thing is this: you're not actually unseen. Put on a ring of invisibility, and no one knows you're there, at least for 3 minutes. Use a decoy ring, and there's four illusion copies of yourself running around, acting like idiots. Seriously, why four copies? That's like a huge tipoff that they're fake.

'Hisss, I thought I turned this poor shlub to stone, but now there's 4 of him running off in different directions....ahh...I think I'll just swing my hammer around where I thought I stoned him.'

well, that went off the rails in an amusing fashion. I have nothing further to add.

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Isn't the ring of invisibility grossly overpriced already anyway?

'Harry, why do you keep shouting 'Obfuscato!' every three minutes? Argus Flich'll hear you for sure!'

I'll take my chances.

this is what I get for searching 'decoy ring' in just the rules questions forum. meh. I'm FAQing this anyway. I'm with you in any case: this ring isn't a unitasker, in the same way that 'expeditious retreat' is just a euphemism. I'll throw in the section on invisibility the condition, which this ring appears to grant you

Invisibility as a state of being

and again as a condition

Core Rulebook wrote:
Invisible: Invisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). See Invisibility, under Special Abilities.

Nowhere in there does it say you lose it if you use it. Your victim does pinpoint you if you're in melee, though.

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Decoy Ring

The ring doesn't say what kind of invisibility you get, and the spell the ring is based on is mislead. For reference, here's the

Ring of Invisibility

which explicitly references the spell invisibility, including its limitations.

So, the question: does a decoy ring give you invisibility per mislead (which in turn references greater invisibility), or regular old 'invisibility, as the spell'?

Ultimate Equipment wrote:
Decoy Ring: This ring is a thick loop of mirrorlike metal. Whenever the wearer of this ring takes the withdraw action or becomes helpless (including falling unconscious), it instantly makes her invisible for 3 rounds and creates four illusory duplicates that either run off in opposite directions or perform other plausible actions that could draw enemy attention away from her. The duplicates last for 3 rounds before disappearing, but they instantly pop out of existence if struck by an attack (AC 10) and can be disbelieved (Will DC 19). Allies of the wearer always know her true location and can freely provide aid or assistance to her.

a) the ring's power is based on mislead, which in turn acts like greater invisibility. This is the only source of consumable-free greater invisibility I've ever seen.

b) the ring is great for a melee rogue. If you can't position yourself in the perfect spot during your 'withdraw' round, and kill your target in the next 2, then you're doing it wrong.
c) illusionary duplicates! who cares! enemy-only invisibility! also ridiculous! a mislead effect contingent on dropping into negatives (ie, right when you need it)! don't provoke when withdrawing from a creature with reach! craziness!
d) the ring costs 12K gp. That's 8K cheaper than a ring of invisibility!

Ultimate Equipment wrote:
Sniper Goggles: The leather strap attached to these bulbous lenses allows their wearer to fit them to his head. The wearer of these goggles can make ranged sneak attacks from any distance instead of the normal 30 feet. When making ranged sneak attacks within 30 feet, the wearer gains a +2 circumstance bonus on each sneak attack damage die., if only I had a consumable-free, repeatable source of greater invisibility...oh wait! the goggles cost 20K, and now they're worth it! also: call yourself GOGGALOR

Best of all, no feats! You want to play some total fruitcake build, or The Conqueror Ooze, or whatever, go for it! But some feats can make this even better

Advanced Player's Guide wrote:
Parting Shot: Once per encounter, when using the withdraw action, you can make a single ranged attack at any point during your movement.

Use with a dart in the ol' spring-loaded wrist sheath. Too bad you need 4 feats before this one. Also, once per encounter? wha?

Pathfinder Society Primer wrote:

Cut Your Losses: Whenever you withdraw as a full-round action and have at least one free hand, you can pick up one unattended object or unconscious ally of your size or smaller at any point during your movement without provoking attacks of opportunity. Any additional movement performed on your turn still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.

In addition, you treat your Strength score as 2 higher for the purpose of determining your carrying capacity.


oh, you know, this is cute

Favored enemy (core races)
Favored enemy (featured races) (even though some of these are outsiders)
Favored enemy (uncommon races)

I could see that as a good compromise. Although, take favored enemy core races and find out the campaign involves infiltrating the Kitty Cat Empire or something...

how about the top halfling being a summoner, and the bottom half is a Small Eidolon?

eh, this calls for a little rules bending here, because a small eidolon can only be ridden by a tiny rider, and you can't apply the mount evolution to a bipedal eidolon. so what? take Undersized Mount and call it a day.

say you're suffering paralysis. okay, how can you get out of it?

you can take 'purely mental' actions, such as a spell with no components. So like a Stilled, Silent remove paralysis spell would work.

What won't work: lay on hands with the paralysis mercy (you need to touch with your hands)
Also no good: the feat Word of Healing with the paralysis mercy (you have to be able to speak)

So other than a heavily metamagicked up spell, or possibly a contingency, are there any other ways to pull this off?

In other words, how to unlock a 'lock in' effect?

hmm, bumping this. Is cutting someone with a sword considered 'deformation'? What if you give your opponent a beautiful scar? Failing that, how about bruising? Can you bruise someone (using nonlethal damage) and avoid deforming them?

Azoriel wrote:
Was the aim just to have an unarmored greatsword wielding paladin, or did you have something more specific in mind? If you wanted to optimize lay on hands, I'd consider a tiefling (for the favored class bonus) with the fey foundling feat. (If I could do this without taking the fiendish heritage feat, I'd make it a demon-spawn one.)

I was aiming for an unarmored paladin with a greatsword.

a) I looked at mystery cultist to get the 2nd boon faster, but that class gives up so much against the paladin that I decided it wasn't worth it. Until level 16, I'd just wear some full plate.
b) I was then looking at 'paladin-only' feats, because if you're going to play a paladin, why not go whole hog? The best of the bunch seems to be Ultimate Mercy, which nets you raise dead for cheap. That popped in the other feat pieces and the archetype choice.

Yeah, if I was really Solanging it up, I'd probably grab a level of oracle (lunar maybe?), and go Temple Guardian with the Nobility domain.

Peet wrote:
The trick with the low CON is the possibility of getting one-shotted by a crit, especially if you are taking other hits before that. At level 12 this build will have about 83 HP. Getting CON to 16 and putting FCB into hp brings it up to 119. A big jump. Since you are not planning to use a shield you will get hit fairly often, and you can only lay on hands during your action.

Good point.

Ultimate Magic wrote:
Prerequisites: Cha 19, Greater Mercy, lay on hands, mercy class feature.

So, it looks like I don't need to be level 11, just some level I can reasonably expect to have 10 lay on hands

18 cha: 4 LoH
6 levels of paladin: 3 LoH
the extra feat: 2 LoH
4th level warrior of holy light: 1 LoH

that's 10 by level 6, just in time for the feat at level 7. And without a headband even.

I liked the energy resistance because it's something different, but hit points for this character are really appealing. I think skating a 12 Con for a melee character could work with all the LoH shots.

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