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Pathfinder Society Member. 815 posts (816 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 4 Pathfinder Society characters.


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Ultimate Combat wrote:
Felling Smash: If you use the attack action to make a single melee attack at your highest base attack bonus while using Power Attack and you hit an opponent, you can spend a swift action to attempt a trip combat maneuver against that opponent.

I don't have the text of Dirty Fighting (from the Dirty Tactics Toolbox), but I gather the gist is twofold:

a) you can dispense with most of the obnoxious prerequisites from Felling Smash
b) that you can avoid the attack of opportunity from using a maneuver if you are flanking your target.

The trip attempt from Felling Smash is a swift action. If you don't meet the conditions from Dirty Fighting, do you suffer the attack of opportunity?

Familiar Folio wrote:
Master’s Guise (Sp): At 11th level, a decoy can transform into a perfect likeness of its master, as the alter self spell. It can hold this form for up to 1 minute per caster level; upon changing back, the decoy must remain in its natural form for an equal amount of time before transforming again. This ability replaces spell resistance.
Advanced Race Guide wrote:
Change Shape (Su): A kitsune can assume the appearance of a specific single human form of the same sex. The kitsune always takes this specific form when she uses this ability. A kitsune in human form cannot use her bite attack, but gains a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear human. Changing shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as alter self, except that the kitsune does not adjust her ability scores.
Advanced Race Guide wrote:
Realistic Likeness: You can precisely mimic the physical features of any individual you have encountered. When you use your racial change shape ability, you can attempt to take the form of an individual, granting you a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks made to fool others with your impersonation.

Can a kitsune wizard of at least 11th level with the Realistic Likeness feat and a decoy familiar cause their familiar to adopt the likeness of any humanoid (per alter self) the master has encountered?

hmm, now that I think about it, I think a kitsune with Realistic Likeness, Fox Shape, and a fox familiar with the decoy archetype (which would allow it to alter itself to any likeness the master can) sounds like a winner.

1. Go to a dinner party.
2. Instruct your familiar to look like you. (via master's guise)
3. Give your familiar a fearsome guise trick to reinforce the illusion.
4. Have your familiar mingle with the dinner guests while you go off and do crazy adventurey things. Or alter yourself to look like a different guest and talk to yourself, I guess.

actually, I have two feat trees for consideration, both going 1-11. any advice would be appreciated.

elf mesmerist (shoots bad guys)
1 Point-Blank Shot
3 Precise Shot
5 Reckless Aim
7 Intense Pain
9 Vital Strike
11 Elven Accuracy

I guess you could go Faerie's Strike here with a high Wisdom

kitsune mesmerist (has foxy powers)
1 Realistic Likeness
3 Empath
5 Fox Shape
7 Iron Will
9 Familiar Bond (fox)
11 Improved Familiar Bond (fox)

No idea if a mesmerist with a familiar is a good idea. Might be a cute target for a fearsome guise trick. I keep trying to jam Voice of the Sibyl in there somwhere, but it doesn't stick.

Nocte ex Mortis wrote:

Nope. Guess what? It's a swift action every turn to keep the Chakras going, so go you on your DR 3/- or your 2d8 non-typed single-target breath weapon, pick one?

Chakras are freaking terrible.

You are correct. The chakra system is indeed incredibly timid. The design decision apparently was 'anyone occult can do it', which necessitated all the checks against it.

I think space could certainly have been saved by just making a cool occult unchained monk archetype that used/manipulated chakras. Instead, we have to create special builds to get to the same result.

I started this thread because it didn't seem like there was a lot on the Advice forum re: optimizing a chakra-user. That's allowed, right?

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:

Why do you need Psychic sensitivity?

There are two basic challenges with Chakras:
- Getting enough Ki.
- Surviving crazy high DC Fort and Will saves (DC 38.)

I'd been toying with something like:
Cleric(Irori, Law Domain) 1/Ninja 2/Cleric X

With Cha as high as possible.

By the time you can open your last Chakra (14), let's say you've got a 24 Cha for 10 channels a day.
Cleric 12 is 6d6,+2d6 for Phylactery of Positive Channeling is 8 Ki points times 10 channels is 80 ki, plus ~8 to start with plus 5 from the Chakra feats.

For Saves:
+8 from Cleric 12.
+7 Cha
+3 Wis/Con (ish)
+5 Cloak
+2 Luck
+1 Competence

~ +26, still needs some work to hit a 38 reliably. I don't know where other good sources of saves are? One level of Paladin, Warpriest, and Druid would get another +6, but lose a die of channel/10 Ki. So +32.

From my reading of the saves, if you miss the Fort save, your Chakras are still open. So all you're really worried about is making the Will save to open the last Chakra. So Touch of Law the round before you open it will guarantee a 38. After that, you use Chakra Adept to skip the Will save. If you fail the Fort (~one in sixteen rounds with double-rolls) you take some damage but keep on chakra-ing.


How do you turn your channel energy into replenishing all your ki?

Chakras. Aren't they great?

1. Spend your swift action every round.
2. Spend a ki point every round.
3. Succeed at both a Fort and a Will save every round or become screwed.
4. Do all that, and you get some pretty wacky powers: DR, flight, true seeing, fiery breath, mass manipulation of d20s, etc.

So. A challenge?

Say hello to Iroran Paladin

1. You get good Fort and Will saves, plus divine grace
2. You get a ki pool
3. You get a stack of powers that key off of Cha, and the chakra saves are boosted by your Cha (not sure if that stacks with divine grace).
4. At high levels you get aura of perfection, which if you manage to use it and have your crown chakra open, gives you 3 d20s to make good with.

Here's a feat list

1 Psychic Sensitivity
3 ???
5 Chakra Initiate
7 ???
9 Chakra Adept
11 ???

Psychic Sensitivity is kind of a feat tax, so you might want to roll human. On the other hand, you're going to need sky-high saving throws, so halfling or half-orc might make a better choice.

So there's 3 feats free (possibly 4). Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Extra Ki? Or something else? Maybe roll half-elf and grab an eldritch heritage?

EDIT: You can't actually take Chakra Initiate until you get a ki pool, which doesn't happen until 4th level. woops!

Gorbacz wrote:
Byakko wrote:

Btw, another question that is becoming a common theme in this thread:

How precise does an attack need to be in order to qualify for Sneak Attack damage?

While a fireball may seem to be a rather imprecise attack, I submit that a giant's hammer is similarly imprecise against a tiny sized creature - the hammer's striking area is much larger than the target in this case. Yet I have yet to see anyone rule that this situation disqualifies Sneak Attack.

That's Rogues for you - they can hit precisely a pixie's left kidney with a Huge hammer without making it messy. That's how awesome they are. You don't come close. You don't compare. Talk to the hand, talk to the hand. example of this isn't a hammer, it's a snag net.

You can probably deal sneak attack damage with a snag net. You can deal sneak attack damage to a swarm (usually using magic). We don't have a definition of a 'precisable' weapon, which means the line is perhaps arbitrarily drawn at weapons->yes, spells->no.

anyway, I've no idea what Crimeo and alexd are talking about...

Castilonium wrote:
The only gods with Trickery that are within a step of lawful good are Erecura, Khepri, and Chaldira. And Erecura's the wife of an archdevil. None of these deities have explicit paladin codes.

I think a paladin of Erecura could make for great roleplaying, but I admit it gets complicated.

I think of those 3, Chaldira would appreciate best a paladin/mesmerist. So, there's a race settled. Hmm...

yeah, so, uh...

a) I don't know if divine grace and towering ego stack. I suspect they don't.
b) lay on hands: here is some divine healing from my deity. praise be! touch treatment: same thing?

So, a couple of questions

1. Say you have 12 levels to work with. What's your favorite cutoff, or would you go 6 and 6?
2. Any deities sponsor paladins where a) the deity has access to the Trickery domain, and b) the paladin code allows for lies and tricks.
3. Any good effects for paladins that trigger off Will saves that mesmerists can influence?

bbangerter wrote:
Crimeo wrote:

I think it should be fairly clear that it means "reach it with the damage/attack" not your fingers, in the case of ranged sneak attack. Otherwise, like... all ranged sneak attacks would be impossible, even with bows, and the text would be pointless.

Though even if you did want it to be actual literal reach, you could simply aim the fireball (or whatever spell that might actually work instead) 25 feet in front of you so that the 20 foot radius comes back and just barely covers your opponent but not you, while you're standing adjacent to it.

Fun fact by the way: aura of the unremarkable specifically only targets non-allies, so even this hypothetical hurdle is jumped without the slightest inconvenience by that one! Best. Spell. Ever. hehehe :P

While alexd1976 does so in jest, it is this particular type of intentionally reading the rules in a twisted and convoluted fashion that got us to "fireballs can do SA" in the first place.

As for aura of the unremarkable, SA does the same type of damage as the source. SA shocking grasp does electricity damage, SA piercing weapon does piercing damage. What kind of damage does aura of the unremarkable do? Even with the convoluted reading of applying SA to AoE, this spell does nothing for SA. Even with the valid ruling of SA on Surprise Spells, this spell does nothing for SA.

I'm with you. Why is aura of the unremarkable being brought up exactly? phantasmal killer is a much better spell for this purpose.

Vanykrye wrote:

I've started skipping some posts, because I saw something that should end the argument.

Everyone agrees that if you can't crit then you also can't sneak attack, correct? We're past the point where I would have to go find the multiple texts for that?

Now read this:

Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes ability damage or drain (see Special Abilities), the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit.

So...if it can't crit, it cannot apply sneak attack damage. In order for a spell to crit, it has to have an attack roll. Only exception is the arcane trickster.

Case closed?

I do not agree. A monster ability (or type or subtype) that protects against critical hits is not the same as one that protects against precision damage.

d20pfsrd has a nice workup on what that means, here, in the sidebar.

You can sneak attack swarms (with a swarmbane clasp and some tricks, like Surprise Follow-Through or the skirmisher ability) and aeons, but neither of those kinds of creatures is subject to critical hits.

Hey, Advice Forum! How do I make an alias for myself that isn't a PFS character? I have to go around calling myself 'Facetiously Twisted Ohako' now.

Hi folks.

Thanks to all of you for reading and responding to my question. My aim is not to be inflammatory or obstreperous, but to explore boundary conditions within the game using logic and/or rules citations. If I have offended anyone with my question or my initial responses, then let me apologize.

Many people have said that there is no way a fireball spell may be used to deal sneak attack damage. Okay, how's this for a scenario?

CRB wrote:

fireball: A fireball spell generates a searing explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.

You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. An early impact results in an early detonation. If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.

A wizard can attempt to send the bead of a fireball through a narrow passage, such as an arrow slit (I'm assuming the arrow slit is not adjacent to the caster, lobbing deadly things out of an arrow slit you're next to is kind of their thing). So, here is a different narrow passage: a storm giant's nostril.

1. Could a wizard attempt to send the bead of a fireball up a giant's nose by rolling to hit the narrow passage of that giant's nostril?
2. Assuming the wizard hit that gap (with an attack roll, perhaps against the giant's touch AC), and assuming that the wizard had some levels of rogue, would a giant's nasal cavity count as enough of a 'vital spot' of the giant to allow the caster their sneak attack damage?

...and now we have a new fantasy tavern name...

So let's be done with fireballs for a minute. Consensus seems to indicate that because a fireball hits a whole area, and because sneak attack (and painful stare) rely on precision damage, it's usually pretty hard to be precise with a fireball. Never mind that (under the right conditions) a rogue could deal sneak attack damage with a snag net.

I'd like to ask again about ear-piercing scream.

a) it's an attack
b) it deals damage
c) it targets a specific creature, rather than a general area
d) it doesn't require an attack roll
e) it does not have the 'cannot target a specific part of a creature' clause that magic missile has

3. Assuming normal conditions are met (the target is denied Dex to AC or is flanked), can ear-piercing scream (and other spells like it) serve to deal sneak attack damage?

Well, let's try to address some of these questions in order.

ShieldLawrence wrote:
Sneak Attack requires an attack roll

Please tell me where it says this.

ShieldLawrence wrote:
To score a "hit" against an opponent, you must roll an attack roll and beat their AC.

Eh, I'm not exactly sure that a hit is as narrowly defined as that. I'll concede the point for now.

CampinCarl9127 wrote:
If the fireball is already striking all spots, including all possible vital spots, how would you add extra precision damage to it? The damage for striking all possible vitals so how would you make it strike more vitally?

This is the difference between a wizard and a rogue. A wizard learns how to shoot fire from his eyes, while a rogue learns how to make their attacks count in combat. How would a wizard learn to strike vital spots with a fireball? Train as a rogue!

Gisher wrote:
Fireball is an area of effect spell. It doesn't have a target.

Fair point. A fireball doesn't target a specific creature. It just targets a square. Although, there is a clause in fireball that lets a caster target a hole or arrow slit with the magical bead. You could make a case that a ranged touch attack roll (against, say, the eye holes in a great helm) would then allow sneak attack. Still, fireball doesn't seem like the best example spell, because it behaves so much like those naughty splash weapons.

So, let me change my target as well.

Ultimate Magic wrote:
ear-piercing scream: You unleash a powerful scream, inaudible to all but a single target. The target is dazed for 1 round and takes 1d6 points of sonic damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d6). A successful save negates the daze effect and halves the damage.

Let's see

a) ear-piercing scream targets a specific creature.
b) it's certainly an attack, and a range is called out (so it's a ranged attack, I guess)
c) a vital spot happens to be called out in the spell's name: the ear.

So, our prospective rogue needs to target a creature who

a) is denied their Dex to AC (or who is flanked by the rogue)
b) is within 30 feet of the rogue
c) is not concealed
d) has visible, unobstructed ears

Under those conditions, ear-piercing scream seems like a valid way to attach sneak attack damage to a spell without taking 10 levels of arcane trickster. How's that?

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

I know the answer to this question appears to be conventional wisdom: no. Please hear me out.

Here is a link to a question in the rules forum about combining the mesmerist's painful stare ability with a magic missile. I posted a similar question, but in the wrong forum because I'm a dope.

Here is a link where I asked the Advice forum for better ways than UMD to cast magic missile as a mesmerist. Secret Wizard argued there that if painful stare + magic missile works, then sneak attack + fireball should work as well.

I'm not sure xe's wrong.

Pathfinder Unchained wrote:

Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every 2 rogue levels thereafter. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. This additional damage is precision damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit.

With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (such as a sap, unarmed strike, or whip), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack—not even with the usual –4 penalty.

The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with total concealment.

A rogue cannot crit with a fireball, nor does fireball meet the definition of a nonlethal weapon. So let's discard those clauses. Let's also toss the opening fluff paragraph.

Pathfinder Unchained-ish wrote:

Sneak Attack: The rogue’s attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every 2 rogue levels thereafter. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with total concealment.

So, is a fireball an attack?

CRB wrote:
Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don't damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don't harm anyone.

So, yes.

a) if a target is denied their Dex bonus to AC, or is flanked by the (hopefully flameproof) rogue
b) and is within 30 feet of the rogue (fireball is ranged)
c) and if the target isn't concealed
d) and if the rogue can see and reach a 'vital spot' on the target.

So let's talk 'vital spots' for a minute. Here's the relevant text of magic missile

CRB wrote:
magic missile: The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat, so long as it has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can't be singled out. Objects are not damaged by the spell.

So, if 'specific part' and 'vital spot' are synonymous, then a magic missile cannot be used in a sneak attack. This might work in a painful stare, however. Fireball, well, hits all the spots, vital or not. The rogue, by definition, can reach it.

And yeah, I know about the arcane trickster's Surprise Spells class feature.

CRB wrote:
Surprise Spells: At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.

Surprise Spells doesn't spell out the 'normal' benefit, like some feats do.

I allege the following

1. A rogue can use an AoE spell to deal sneak attack damage.
2. A mesmerist can use any damaging spell to deal painful stare damage.
3. An 10th level arcane trickster can sneak attack a flat-footed target with magic missile, while a normal rogue cannot.

Is this correct?

Val'bryn2 wrote:
Except that Sneak Attack calls out that you have to be able to target the enemy. Therefore, you have to make an attack roll. To consider if something is a basic attack, all you have to ask is: would this break invisibility? As the answer for Magic Missile is yes, it is an attack. Since it is an attack and it deals damage, Painful Stare would affect it.


CRB wrote:

Invisibility:The creature or object touched becomes invisible. If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too. If you cast the spell on someone else, neither you nor your allies can see the subject, unless you can normally see invisible things or you employ magic to do so.

Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.

Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as swimming in water or stepping in a puddle). If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving. The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character's perceptions. Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.

Invisibility can be made permanent (on objects only) with a permanency spell.

The invisibility spell has this clause where it calls out attacks, but only for the purposes of itself, not for any other purpose. I'm beginning to think that Secret Wizard is right, that rogues can sneak attack with fireballs. Time for a new post on that.

Secret Wizard wrote:

Doesn't work. Magic Missile is not an attack. For something to be considered an attack, it requires an attack roll.

Though I'd say the wording is ambiguous enough to allow it on some tables...

Would you care to argue that in the post I've referenced? Kazaan quotes the CRB pretty convincingly over there.

It's not the best way to murder a bad guy, but sometimes it's the only way: magic missile.

According to this, you can probably boost the damage of a magic missile with the mesmerist's painful stare class feature.

Conning a wand into believing you're a wizard (via Use Magic Device) will net you one missile. Are there any ways of getting that spell onto your spell list? Or, any other way to cast at higher than 1st level?

question is pretty simple.

Occult Adventures wrote:

Painful Stare: When an attack that deals damage hits the target of a mesmerist's hypnotic stare, the mesmerist can cause the target to take an amount of additional damage equal to 1/2 the mesmerist's class level (minimum 1).

The mesmerist can use this ability as a free action, and can use it even if it isn't his turn. If the mesmerist uses this ability to increase his own damage, the additional damage increases by 1d6 points for every 3 class levels the mesmerist possesses. This damage is precision damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit. A mesmerist can trigger this ability only once per round, but a single creature can take damage from multiple mesmerists' painful stares in a round.

Say a 3rd level mesmerist is staring really hard at someone, and then sweet-talks a wand into shooting a single magic missile at the guy. Does this count as an attack, and thus the damage of the missile becomes 1d4+1d6+2?

well what the hey. I'll hit the FAQ button on this my own self.

I don't believe that the sources that I've cited actually constitute RAW (that is, 'rules as written'). Unless I miss my guess, there's actually nothing written in the CRB that addresses whether or not a given spell (or all spells) have observable effects. It'd certainly be nice if there was a descriptor for that sort of thing.

I think the fact that using Secret Caster to cast a psychic spell causes a gelatinous cube to fall prone is just a bonus.


...I use Secret Caster to cast secret secret!

QuidEst wrote:

A Shaman* devoted to Sarenrae and to healing the schisms in her church takes five levels of Shaman and two levels of Dawnflower Dissident, walks in and makes a Sleight of Hand and Bluff check, each with a -10 penalty. The shopkeeper flubs the opposed checks. Have a popsicle!

*Shaman is the only divine class to get Charm Person on its list directly; the general principle works with any divine class with access to Daylight as a spell.

Hey QuidEst, this is perfect! Thanks for posting this one. That power raises some pretty hairy questions, so I posted them in a new thread, here.

Joesi, you may find answers to your question (what is it that's noticeable and why) in the posts I've quoted in the thread I just linked to (...if that makes any sense...O.o)

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

thanks to QuidEst for helping me with my popsicle shop question from earlier. Xe pointed me here

Paths of Prestige wrote:

Secret Caster (Ex): At 2nd level, a Dawnflower dissident can disguise his spellcasting with a Bluff check (for spells with verbal components), opposed by the observer’s Sense Motive check, and/or a Sleight of Hand check (for spells with somatic components), opposed by the observer’s Perception check. Depending on the situation, the Dawnflower dissident’s Bluff and/ or Sleight of Hand check is modified according to the following table.

Penalty Condition
-0 Spell has a range of personal
-5 During combat
-5 Spell has a range of touch
-10 Spell has a range longer than touch
-Spell level ×2 Spell has a visible, audible, or otherwise observable effect
Automatic failure Spell has an observable effect that clearly emanates from the caster

Casting a spell in this fashion increases its casting time to a full-round action (if normally a standard action or less), or doubles the casting time of spells with a casting time longer than a full-round action. A spell cast in this way does not provoke attacks of opportunity from observers that fail to recognize it for what it is. For spells with both verbal and somatic components, the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity from observers unless they fail both their Sense Motive and Perception checks.

Sorry about the table in there. Anyway...

Here is a quote from Mark Seifter about how spells always have a noticeable element. He quotes Jason Buhlman, and I think the post he's referencing can be found here.

Please excuse me if these questions have been asked before. I couldn't find a reference here in the Rules forum.

Question 1: Do all spells have observable effects (thus always netting the spell level x2 penalty when using Secret Caster)? If they do, do they always emanate from the caster (thus hosing Secret Caster entirely)?

Question 2: Let's assume that the answer to question 1 does not entirely invalidate the use of Secret Caster. A Dawnflower Dissident casts a Silent and Still or psychic charm person. What do they roll to conceal their spell? If there is a penalty to the roll, what is the penalty to?

I thought that a dazing grease spell using a vial of acid as a power component was a thing. Like, a thing you could do.

(take 1 point of acid damage, get dazed, then slip and fall before you get out of the acidic grease? hehehe...)

It's not a thing?

1 person marked this as a favorite.

so, to recap

1. some people are waving around the 'you can't covertly cast with metamagic' stick at me. I know this, even if it doesn't seem to make a ton of sense. This is the same as arguing that acid splash should work with the Underhanded rogue talent.

2. Other posters are trying to make my theoretical popsicle shop into some of impenetrable fortress made of 'noyoucantium'. What's the fun of designing a vault no one can break into?

3. Imbicatus says the playtest vigilante (warlock style) can cast covertly.

K. Anyone else want to try answering my original questions? (are my examples wrong, and are there any I'm missing?)

Hey Mark, whenever you get the chance.

I understand that there's been a lot of water under the bridge re: covert spellcasting, the idea that a caster could cast a spell and not have others notice, even if the spell had otherwise no obvious effect (charm person and detect thoughts being two contenders here).

a) what's your take?
b) I can't ask the next obvious question (about Ultimate Intrigue), so let me try this one: does the availability of covert spellcasting affect the 'general understanding' of law-and-order in a typical Golarion city?

That is, I'm pretty sure there isn't a law against casting spells in public in, say, Absalom, but presumably casting any spell in front of a shopkeeper would be grounds for calling the guard (in case the spell was charm person). Is my understanding wrong?

Imbicatus wrote:

Other than the fact that there is no way anyone would give away a sun orchid even under the effects of charm person, you got most of the ways to conceal casting. Vigilante warlock play test could do it.

Also note that even having a silent,still spell via meta magic or psychic components can still be easily detected by an observer.

I was not alleging differently. Apparently you have to dull the senses of the observer, rather than obfuscate the behaviors of the actor.

It strikes me as odd that the signature ability of the mesmerist (that hairy eyeball) is genuinely undetectable, but to get useful covert non-combat benefit out of it, you need the services of a talented accordionist instead.

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I know this has been done to death, but I'm just trying to make sure about the limits of this whole 'concealed magic' thing. Again.

Let's say someone's opened up a shop that sells sun orchid popsicles, and they go for a million gp each. And let's assume that adventurers are going to try to crack that nut with all sorts of whammy powers, and further let's assume that the shopkeeper isn't some sort of vampire plant robot that can shrug off mind-affecting effects, but is trained in Spellcraft. The shop is well-lit.

(Note to self: stat up a ghoran vampire who's got a chip on his shoulder against vegetarians)

An enchanter wizard walks in, and casts a Still, Silent charm person. The shopkeeper notices that magic is being used and instantly triggers the laser chainsaws. Right?

A mesmerist walks in, and begins a whammy with hypnotic eye. The shopkeeper doesn't notice, because, no save, the mesmerist can keep the shopkeeper from noticing her use of that power. She then casts charm person, which because of the psychic magic rules doesn't have any verbal or somatic components to begin with. The shopkeeper finally notices that, and pushes the laser chainsaw button. Right?

A patched-up mesmerist walks in, activates her hypnotic eye, and proceeds to try the implant suggestion part of the new occult skill unlock for Diplomacy. She pulls off the ungodly DC in part because of her Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Persuasive, and Voice of the Sibyl feats. Here you go, have a popsicle! Right?

A demon-blooded tiefling abyssal sorcerer walks by, having taken the following feats: Fiend Sight, Fiend Sight, and Silent Spell. She proceeds to cast deeper darkness and silence on herself outside the shop, then she walks in and casts a Silent charm person. Here's a popsicle for you, wherever you are. Right?

A rakshasa-blooded tiefling rakshasa sorcerer walks in and casts charm person straight off, but quickly passes it off to the shopkeeper as detect fraudulent sun orchids or something. You can't be too careful these days, with all these mountebank adventurers running around. How about a popsicle, then. Right?

A bard with the Spellsong feat shows up. During conversation about the weather and the sun orchid crop, he whips out his bongo drums, and proceeds to attract the attention of Shelyn with a divine Perform (percussion) check. The shopkeeper does not notice that a charm person was also being cast. And here's my last popsicle for you. Right?

a) are there any other ways people can think of to cast a spell covertly in any way?
b) do all of these examples function (or not function) as I have described?

geekgumbo wrote:
As those abilities seem to be purely physical, would a shapeshifter (kitsune with appropriate feat), owner of hat o disguise, etc, get those bonuses essentially free if they take a form with those traits?

I doubt it. If the spell doesn't grant it, you don't get it. Which is weird, because a kitsune rocking Realistic Likeness can get a +10 to Disguise himself as a person with the Overwhelming Beauty trait, but they don't get Overwhelming Beauty themselves.

Torbyne wrote:
As a side note, good luck surviving the "gentle" affections of a 20 ton death-bot.

Eh, beats the lasers and chainsaws side of things. Nothing an impossible sorcerer can't handle.

So, if a creature fails its save against unnatural lust, then it should also be affected by your trait or obedience or what have you. Right?

Torbyne wrote:
Q3: What about it? the spell clearly states how it functions. I am not sure what you are trying to find out here..

Let's say a Charming but impossible sorcerer casts unnatural lust on a robot, with the object of affection being the sorcerer. Does the sorcerer gain the bonus from Charming?


Ultimate Campaign wrote:
Charming: Blessed with good looks, you’ve come to depend on the fact that others find you attractive. You gain a +1 trait bonus when you use Bluff or Diplomacy on a character that is (or could be) sexually attracted to you, and a +1 trait bonus to the save DC of any language-dependent spell you cast on such characters or creatures.
Bastards of Golarion wrote:
Overwhelming Beauty: Your wiles are particularly potent against people who share a race with you, as your beauty is often held up as a symbol of perfection. The DC of your mind-affecting effects increases by 1 against creatures that have at least one of the same subtypes as you.

There's also the obedience boons for both Calistria and Arshea, which I don't need to get in to.

Oh! Also the seducer's eyes spell, and the super-overpriced headband of seduction.

Question 1: If you have both traits, would the DC boosters stack if applicable?

So, let's say you have a grab-bag of these effects, and you're also a competent shapeshifter (alter self, disguise self, both, you're a doppelgänger, etc.) So you don't share a subtype with a target, or your natural form isn't one that's naturally attractive to your target.

Question 2: If you're in an, let's say 'applicable' shape, would you then get these sorts of bonuses?
Question 3: What about if you successfully pull off an unnatural lust spell?
Question 4: Eh, more of a stupid advice question. Any way anyone can think of to pull off seducer's eyes on a recalcitrant wand (via Use Magic Device)?

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Oh hi, Cave Druid calling: when do we get anything at all from turning into an ooze other than its natural attack?


race: half-elf
class: unchained monk 9/internal alchemist 3
traits: Mutant Eye (legal in PFS!), Mordant Heritage
20 point stats
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 8

going for a four-armed, three-eyed kusarigama-wielder with Snake Style

or something

monk1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Skill Focus (Sense Motive), ???
alch1: --
alch2: Vestigial Arm, Extra Discovery (Vestigial Arm)
monk2: Improved Grapple
monk3: Snake Style
alch3: --
monk4: Snake Sidewind, some ki power
monk5: some style strike
monk6: Snake Fang, Improved Trip
monk7: --
monk8: Improved Critical (kusarigama), another ki power
monk9: another style strike

kind of a rough sketch, and kind of magic-item-heavy (I'd love it if there was a alchemist-discovery-using magus archetype), but it's got a little promise.

any help with the concept would be appreciated. no, I haven't read through Occult Adventures yet.

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two levels of alchemist dip, that and a feat net you two vestigial arms. you probably only need one, but two looks cooler

the rules say the arms don't give you any more attacks or actions than you already had. so fine. you can TWF with light crossbows no problem, it's just that firing one-handed nets you a -4 to the attack. the extra arms negate the -4 penalty, and help with reloading.

you also get +Dex mutagen, which might be nice, and a few cool extracts, which is also nice. another feat buys you 'explosive missile', something you can use to load alchemist bombs onto crossbow bolts (though it's a standard action, not awesome)

anyone thinks it's weird that the halfling goes up to the shoulder of the others? like, is that a permanently enlarged halfling?

::pours one out for Web Fiction::

blackbloodtroll wrote:
So, instead of choking dust, or sneezing powder, you're just going to throw fistfulls of cocaine at people?

let's say a dragon is about to breathe fire on you. Before it exhales, it has to inhale first. That's when you nail it with your marching powder (or 'lizard-nip') bomb. Bam! flame goes just everywhere.

Or how about from the dragon's perspective? What do you think all those 'gas' breath weapons really are?

The real question is, how come drug bombs aren't an option in Champions of Corruption?

how about ghoran blood? They are racially delicious...

How about the counterfeit mage archetype? Or there's always the underground chemist for your 'sciency rogue' needs.

huh. interesting. the fabricate spell is legal, but you cannot use a Craft check to make nice things with it (unless you're a poisoner rogue or an alchemist, in which you can, but you can't sell the output poisons).

good to know. May I say it seems weird that crafter's fortune helps with Day Job checks, and fabricate doesn't?

So Alf and Beth are in the Pathfinder Society, and both of them are gnome dressmakers.

Alf is a 9th-level gnome rogue. He's got 16 Int, max ranks in Craft (clothing), has obsession: Craft (clothing), and has taken Skill Focus (Craft (clothing)). He's got a +20 to his check, so after a hard day at the dungeon, he comes home, takes 10 on a Day Job check, and earns 75gp.

Beth is a 9th-level gnome transmuter. She's also got a 16 Int, max ranks in Craft (clothing), has obsession: Craft (clothing), and has taken Skill Focus (Craft (clothing)). She also has a +20 to her check, but she's also got fabricate twice per day. She could, with one spell, turn 90 cubic feet of linen into courtier's outfits.

One square yard of linen costs 4gp. Presumably that means you need approximately 2.5 square yards of linen to make a courtier's outfit (4*2.5 = 30 / 3). The internet tells me that's not enough for a Medium-sized creature, but it might do for a Small one. 90 cubic feet equals 30 cubic yards. I don't know how many square yards of linen you'd need to make a cubic yard, but let's pretend that linen is one inch thick. So 30 cubic yards of linen = 1080 square yards of linen.

1080 square yards of linen costs 4320 gp (this is enough to make courtier's outfits for 432 gnomes). Casting fabricate once (and selling 432 outfits) grosses you 12960gp, or 8640gp net.

Can a skilled wizard use the spell fabricate while making her Day Job check?

(also, uh, is my math wrong?)

Pathfinder Unchained wrote:
Eidolons and Alignment: Generally, the summoner controls the actions of his eidolon, even during combat, either through verbal commands or through the link ability, but this does not mean that the eidolon is a puppet that follows every command without question. Eidolons have been known to refuse actions that are against their ethoses or alignments (subject to the GM’s discretion) and are quick to chide the summoner about such requests. In addition, should the action of the summoner cause a shift in alignment such that the summoner’s alignment is more than one step away from the eidolon’s, the eidolon refuses the call of the summoner (although the summoner can still use his summon monster class feature). If the summoner manages to restore his alignment, the eidolon returns to his service.

We'll see about that!

You can't change your own alignment: if you do, your eidolon leaves.
If you put a helm of opposite alignment on yourself and you purposefully fail the saving throw: same thing, sayonara eidolon.
If someone else ties you up and sticks you with the whammy hat, and you fail the save honestly: Does your eidolon stick around?
If, under any circumstances, your eidolon ends up wearing the whammy hat: Does your eidolon stick around?
If you hand your eidolon an intelligent magic item with an Ego score that then dominates your eidolon: Does your eidolon stick around?
planar binding: At 16th level (ugh, and only at 16th level), a summoner could planar binding an unhappy eidolon. Would that work?

a) would any of these methods work to cajole or force an eidolon more than one alignment step away from you to remain in your service? Or, could these methods be used and then you can go about seeking redemption yourself?
b) does anyone have some better ideas about getting around the eidolon alignment restriction?

Feral Combat Training does the same thing for a natural weapon.

I think a time dragon (or any other dragon for that matter) would be very leery of reincarnate, at least unless they had a way to fudge the roll to go back to being a great wyrm time dragon, rather than an elf or something.

now I'm imagining what would happen if a party of PCs uncovered a fossilized time dragon. Inside its mouth is an adamantine plate with Common writing on it describing the situation. They resurrect it, and then get pulled along on some crazy adventure in the future.

DM_Blake wrote:

a) That's entirely up to the GM; there are no rules to cover it that I know of. I'm inclined to say no - obviously this Time Travel thing is meant to be rare and special. Great Wyrms are rich enough to afford hundreds of resurrections and/or contingency spells, so if that would reset the counter they could just suicide to get three more time trips which would trivialize this rare and special ability.

b) Again up to the GM. None of the things on the Wish spell's list of what it can do cover recharging such a rare and special ability that is limited to the lifespan of the (nearly immortal) dragon, so it falls under the bottom part of the spell that says "You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)"

However, since the GM (dragon) is making the wish and the GM is arbitrating the wish, it's like roleplaying with yourself. So just decide if it works (or for bonus points, decide that it partially works with "perverted intent" that makes Time Travel awkward or unpredictable - could be an interesting adventure hook if the dragon needs to send the PCs on a quest to "fix" its broken ability).

I dunno, I think it's a pretty epic quest if you have to go looking for a sacred reliquary containing a chopped-off time dragon claw to true resurrect in order to save the world somehow.

Yeah, I don't know if a PC could ever get their hands on great wyrm time dragon powers by themselves, so it is kind of 'rules-lawyering with yourself', but so what? The Rules forum doesn't always have to be about how to polymorph into Bokrug or what have you.

My Self wrote:
ohako wrote:
b) can a time dragon recharge the hot tub with a wish?
Hot tub?

sorry, referencing the movie 'Hot Tub Time Machine'

This is about the time dragon

Bestiary 4 wrote:
Time Travel (Su): Up to three times in its life, a great wyrm time dragon can travel to any point in time, taking with it a number of willing creatures equal to its Charisma modifier.

a) if a time dragon uses all of its time travel uses, dies, and comes back to life by any means (raise dead, resurrection, clone, etc.), does it gets its uses back?

b) can a time dragon recharge the hot tub with a wish?

Can the time dragon use wish to recharge one of its time travel shots? How about clone or, heck, raise dead?

I say build a campaign around an evil wizard that manages to actually summon the Oliphaunt of Jandeley for some reason, and the time dragon has to help the heroes try again and again to stop the wizard.

How's that?

I'm not a fan of mint myself. Tom's of Maine makes a nice cinnamon 'n' clove toothpaste that's my gristle of choice.

this is, what, #2 for Ms. Frasier? so we've got a 1 and a 6.

So, let's do this

In Hell's Bright Shadow
The Sixfold Trial
I dunno, uh...Realm of the Fellnight Queen
The Harrowing
Wardens of the Reborn Forge
Divinity Drive

how's that? that's an AP I'd play.

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