one creature holds another. now what?


Rules Questions


I posted this at the bottom of a long-dormant thread, and I didn't get any nibbles. So I thought I'd try again

Say you have a Small-sized summoner. 27 lbs soaking wet, 46 lbs with gear and armor (falling juust below the encumbrance limit himself).

And say the summoner's eidolon is a biped with 18 Strength, 100 lb weight limit and no armor. 26 lbs gets spent on weapons and ammo and such, so the eidolon has plenty of spare weight capacity. The eidolon has the flight evolution, with wings.

And lastly let's say the summoner is proficient with the blade boot and the barbazu beard (both weapons that you don't hold in your hands), and has Still Spell

Scenario #1
The eidolon picks up the summoner and holds him. What can the summoner do? What can the eidolon do?

Scenario #2
1) the summoner double-moves to a square adjacent to his eidolon.
2) the summoner's eidolon spends one move action picking up the summoner (probably using the eidolon's first two arms), and another move action moving somewhere (flying or not)
3) the eidolon then spends a free action to drop the summoner, hopefully into an adjacent square.

The summoner triple-moved. Is this legal?

Scenario #3
1) the summoner spends a move action to grab ahold of the eidolon's ankles.
2) The eidolon flies off somewhere.

Can the summoner cast Still spells? Can the summoner fight with his sharp shoe and beard?


so there are different actions and states to consider.
Is the action a CMB to reposition? riding skill & mounted combat? what action is it to grab and pick up someone? is carrying someone just encumbrance?
When a creature drops something(object) it usually falls flat in its square but objects don't take up space in a square like live creatures do nor is prone defined for an object.
Will a live creature fall prone? Is there a reflex save to land on your feet? Are both creatures now squeezing in the square?

I think most GMs are not going to let it exceed what a mounted rider can do and it's probably going to be a similar process with ride skill.


1. Pretty much whatever, though technically he's being grappled so long as the eidolon is actively holding him. If he's sitting on the eidolon's shoulders/back/whatever, it's more of a mounted combat situation, and I'd treat it that way.

2. Technically, but the value is limited to the degree that your GM lets you get away with it. You've described a limited form of the Peasant Railgun. It's a means of purposefully bending the rules to the point of ridiculousness, and most GMs won't allow it. I personally draw the line at a character moving more than the total movement potential of the fastest character involved in her movement. (This means no double-moving on a horse, dismounting, and double-moving on foot.)

3a. Yes, but he'll need to make a concentration check for grappling the eidolon plus vigorous, violent, or extremely violent movement (depending on how jarring the eidolon's flight is).

3b. Yes, but he'll take the usual penalties for being grappled. (Not sure what a "sharp shoe" is, though.)

Lantern Lodge

By raw...

Scenario #1
The summoner can do whatever he wants to do, as long he has the actions and the means to do it. Cast a spell, etc.
The eidolon have used a move action to pick up his master, it has 1 standard action left for this round.

Scenario #2
Yes this is legal.

It is no different from a paladin picking up a child and carrying the child out of a burning building.

Should the GM tell the paladin "I won't allow that"? Cos I(GM) don't like PC's moving other creatures beyond their movement (The child won't make it out of the building with his movement speed, he MUST DIE!~!!!!!@!!! and... YOU MUST FALL!!!!!!) *being sarcastic here

Scenario #3
Does the summoner have the strength to carry his own weight? (With ALL his equipment?) Assuming he can carry his own weight, he can grab hold of his eidolon. However what does past here depends on many factors and how the GM wishes to rule things.

Factors like, are you using both hands? Can the eidolon fly properly with you holding its ankles?

The GM can rule that if you don't use both hands, you get a huge penalty to your carry capacity. Or if the eidolon don't hold on to you, it can't fly properly.

All these can end up with the GM treating your grab as nothing more then as assist to the eidolon's own attempt to carry you. Or the GM may say the eidolon can still fly off, but it takes a -8 to fly checks and a reduction in fly speed, as it have to try to balance itself with you on its ankles. Same thing for casting spells, a GM can rule that you can with a penailty or outright say no.

Scenario 3 is where the rules gets ambiguous on what can be done. Its a Grey Area, where the GM can call the shots.

*Note on using Grapple or other Combat Maneuvers:
Grapple and other Combat Maneuvers are a form of attack and usually meant to be used on enemies or opponents. (The Combat Maneuvers section actually uses enemies or opponents to describe targets in its writing.) So they are not usually meant to be used on allies or for carrying stuff etc.

Carrying of any thing (item, creature,etc) all fall under carry weight.

If a hero's wedding is under attack by dragons, his bride is not going to ask her hero groom to use the "Reposition" or "Grapple" combat maneuver on her every 6 secs to get her out of the burning church. The hero better be carrying her in his arms and running out of there. (This example, assumes the hero actually have the strength to carry his bride.)

Conclusion:
While it can be said that some GMs won't allow too many actions etc, this is really no different from the swashbuckler using parry 6 times in 1 round and still get to full round attack for like 3 attacks in the span of 6 secs. Logic should not always be applied to the game system, logic will break.

Remember if the eidolon is busy carrying his master around, it can't do much more then carry his master around. Sure it can also attack, but it would also then be carrying his master into melee range for enemies.

Finally, there is ALWAYS Rule 0 (GM's ruling) Should a GM call on Rule 0, then there is really no need to discuss anything, as Rule 0 will override all rules.


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Yep, those grapple and reposition maveuvers are best left for the wedding night.

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