HWalsh wrote:
Coriat did summon "Jeff" a few posts ago so here I am. A Paladin serves law and goodness. Depending on the particulars of their code, "law" might be defined as immutable or natural rights, or religious dictates, or carefully thought-out philosophy. We tend to think of revolutions or law-breaking and non-lawful, but it is clear that, for example, the American revolution and the emancipation and suffrage movements were based on notions of "higher law" or justice that trumped unjust or wicked laws. A Paladin doesn't "fall" if they support an alteration in society that seems, to their code and faith, a closer adherence to justice and order than one that promotes cruelty or arbitrary hierarchy. While it's interesting to consider the RP or narrative potential of a paladin serving an amoral or tyrannical state, inevitably, such stories either involve burn-out and surrender or rebellion on some level.
You realise, of course, that given the synergy between the timeline on Earth and Golarion, that soon (within a decade) you will be able to create a 1920s Cthulhu Mythos game that also crosses over...? Though, I have to ask, how does the Dreamlands interact with Golarion. Does it exist? Is it the Plane of Dreams? Can one travel from Earth's Dreamlands to Golarion's Plane of Dream?
Kirth Gersen wrote:
I like the idea of converting the levels based on the old D&D characters. Re Kay/Keu/Cei, that's true. He's also quick with his tongue (Diplomacy/Intimidation), deceptive, and more skill-focused than say, Lancelot. He has maxed out Profession (steward). Lancelot's skills, for example, are probably limited to Ride, Performance (poetry), Heal, and perhaps Knowledge (faerie). He's too unworldly to worry about Knowledge (nobility) or Diplomacy. Perceval's pretty similar - Ride, Heal, um... Knowledge (religion)? We can compare that to Gauvain (who is arguably much more intelligent), who is an accomplished Diplomat, has Sense Motive, Knowledge (nobility), Performance (harp), and Perception.
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Welsh giants are Colossal, not Huge, in general, however. Cei was Arthur's right-hand man. But, yes, in general, in the romances, his role is to get beat up and take on things he can't handle. Definitely brave, and also smart, but full of himself.
Voadam wrote:
Evil in a mythological sense is a personification or abstract of moral harm, but it extends, to a large degree, to all the "evils" of the world, including natural calamities. The notion of demons/devils and angels choosing good or evil is a metaphor for our own choices (they signify themselves human capacities and hence are doomed to exemplify what they are), but the Calvinist notion of the impossibility of free will thereby extending to humankind is really out of place in an RPG. Demons and Angels are reflections of ourselves, inextricably linked to our own free will, but I think may be said to be crystallised in the moment of the decision/act, unlike ourselves. The Fairies - Fatae - are the mythical True Neutral entities, in that they represent destiny, fate, obligation, the restraint on free will. They're all facing us, mirroring us, born from our stories. They have freedom or unfreedom in relation to our own notions of these ideas. I'd argue that all these groups can choose different paths but specifically through the intervention or influence of humans/humanoids, who impart their own flexibility. But they can't originate their redemption or fall. In Milton, for example, the precipitating act in Lucifer's fall is the creation of humanity/freewill.
Voadam wrote:
I think Mikaze is noting the philosophical/religious connection between the idea of free will and good and evil. Neutrality in that tradition is the act of not choosing, or abdication of the moral decision. Now, a lot of things pragmatically can't be boiled down into good or evil, particularly at first. In medieval legend, the elves and fairies, of course, exist in that in-between state of not making the choice (to be loyal to God or rebel with the Devil, in Christian terms). They have - interestingly enough - a certain devotion to literalism, formulae, oaths - the escape clauses from making conscious choice - in folklore.
We should keep in mind that romance and family (not always the same thing) are probably the #1 by a mile reasons for real adventuring, and for people doing stuff in fiction in general. Ironically, most gamers are unwilling to have romance or love be a primary motivation for their character's actions... hence, I think, the murder-hobo archetype. It's kind of odd. Tolkien's Hobbit and LotR have other motivations driving the characters as well, but ultimately come down to platonic and compassionate love anyway. My quasi-India setting puts it front and centre because the literature of South Asia does, but in fact, European literature does the same. However, I suspect if we can get this written, it won't come out till next February.
thejeff wrote:
Actually, the earliest forms of the Alexander legend place the Amazon Queen in Kashmir or thereabouts, which - interestingly enough - is also the location of the Kingdom of Women in both Chinese (the Journey to the West features this locale) and Indian legend (Strirajya). The Ladakh region adjoining Kashmir has a tradition of polyandry and female autonomy, though it is not a matriarchy. The "Queen Mother" of Meroe seems to have been confused with the Indian queen; in part this is because in the tradition of "wonder tales" all matriarchies/matrilocal societies are rolled up into one. Maybe the men writing them couldn't imagine that multiple and distant societies would have the same notions of female equality? As to the "Amazons" of Garund, we may connect them as an idea to the all-woman royal guard of Dahomey.
Sissyl wrote: One version of the Sleeping Beauty tale had the required kiss be... uhmmm... more than a kiss. Where would that end up on the sexual assault scale? This is true and it was rape. (Giambattista Basile's version is the earliest, and it was rewritten by Perrault and the Grimms.) She also becomes pregnant while still asleep, and the children are prepared for eating. It's a nightmare, not a fairy tale. You'll note, like in the Clever Woman folktale motif (India has a lot of these), the king forgets about her. I think the sleeping was in part (and perversely) to take away Talia's consent, so she would remain innocent in some degree while still the king's lover. But that doesn't excuse it.
Draco Bahamut wrote:
The Wendo fit this trope rather well. They may not be "gods" but they are certainly mighty outsiders. Perhaps Gozreh is an ascended Wendo?
Mikaze wrote:
Hmm. The name Naderi even sounds like Sanskrit. Keeping in mind the afterlife and rebirth, perhaps she is worshipped by lovers separated by arranged marriages, with the idea that suicide > reunion, even as lesser beings. (In South Asian legend, partners are reborn again and again in proximity, but do not always end up married. If they aren't - they will probably fall in love anyway). It is true that prophecies on a grander scale have been failing since the death of Aroden. What if... the marriage divinations of Vudra have also been going wrong since then. The golden age of going to the priestess for the name of your bride/groom/partner and finding a good match has fallen apart, though the tradition still stands among conservative families. But the truth is, the auguries are faked. This could be a major cause of social disorder and adventures...
Gurdle > probably you mean "Girdle" Regardless, a good conversion, I think (particularly of the Green Knight Gawain, who is my favourite). More random Arthurian "facts": Amlawdd, or Hamlet (Amlawdd is the Welsh form of the name) is Igerna's father, and hence Arthur (and Morgan and Morgawse and Elaine's) grandfather. This is an old Welsh tradition, probably based on a mingling of Viking and Welsh stories. The Grail legend has been plausibly connected to "graal" legends from Catalonia and Leon/Galicia by French scholars in the past few decades, which explains the strong emphasis on Spain (and the reconquista) in Wolfram von Eschenbach's Parzival. The same research has identified Percival with the Frankish Crusader Rotrou du Perche. I have an interesting theory about the interrelationship of the Nibelungen legends (in Frankish and Visigothic tradition) and the Breton Arthurian stories I am developing in a book I've been working on for a while.
Mikaze wrote:
Ancient or Classical India was less gender caste-stratified (or properly, jati-stratified - varna or caste is a pretty much modern invention), particularly when the Kama Sutra was written, than medieval or modern India. If I were working on Vudra, I'd have some significant variation in caste structure, from free and easy (CG) to rigid and probably LE. But if we assume that Vudra is like Jalmeray (which is fairly stratified), keep in mind that Hindu law (as a parallel) understood a wide variety of legal marriages and relationships, and while the higher castes would use arranged marriage (and Shelyn would be invoked to create marital understanding and love - post-wedding), as would certain jatis that followed strict exogamy or endogamic rules, there should be still room for love-matches and star-crossed lovers in Vudra, if it reflects any amount of South Asian folklore and pop culture. Arranged marriages made by means of divinations - as they are in India today - would be fairly accurate in Vudra, since divination magic is more reliable in Golarion. So not so bad... Also, Apsaras (or "dapsaras") are pretty much the poster children of dangerous infatuations and rebirth-reunions, so those elements should go with them in Vudra. So I personally hope the entanglements of both friendship-love (the goal of arranged marriages in India) and romantic-love (the theme of many many stories) are both present in Vudra. I think Shelyn would be OK with both.
BTW, I just backed a kickstarter (the Queen's Cavaliers), which actually is awesome on a number of levels. I'm really into swashbuckling games, and as it turns out, so is my 4-year old daughter, who has begun a sword collection, so I felt I had to go for it, for down the line when she can play, say, about 6, like when I started. But it's also queer friendly (in terms of world design), which is a bonus, so I thought I'd mention it here.
Mojorat wrote: Does anyone have any folkloric imagery of mythologies that had gender swapping dieties? All I could find for loki was marvel stuff as a super villainess. Loki is one of the most familiar gods for this but until I read this thread I realized I had no idea what female loki looked like. Mohini - an avatar of Vishnu (generally male) - is a female avatar. She sleeps with Shiva, and they have a child, Shasta/Ayyapa/Aiyanar, who is a patron of gender-queer people. Shiva him/herself has an avatar which is a merger with Parvati/Shakti called Ardhanarishvara (Half-man Lord). This deity is male on one side and female on the other. These are probably among the more widely worshipped gender fluid gods today. PS. These are also fairly attractive to me, and I think curvy, sensual beings are fine. But note the men are also sensualized in South Asian art.
Ciaran Barnes wrote: Tristram as he appears in Le Morte d'Arthur is easily my favorite knight of the table round, and his two books are the best in terms of the development of characters and the overall story. However, I don't know that he would have any special abilities that other knights don't, other than that he should be second only to Lancelot in hand to hand combat. (I'm kind of an expert on this subject… Wrote "Lands of Tristram" for Pendragon but it went under with Green Knight.) Tristram is multi-classed as a Ranger; he spends a lot of time hunting and hiding out in the wilderness - he lives in a cave with Isolt for a while. He's a skilled bard as well (this may reflect Celtic notions of heroism better than the behavior of his peers) He's much more deceptive, sarcastic, poetic, and secretive than either Lancelot or Gauvain. He is incredibly strong - he cut a knight and his horse in half with his sword - which is so heavy that when Charlemagne's paladins find it they have to have it shortened, and it becomes known as Cortana. Gauvain (Gawain) is the third best knight - at least in Middle-English sources - after Lancelot and Tristram. He gains superhuman strength close to noon and returns to human levels as it sets. Not sure how to represent that. He is also perhaps the most empathic and considerate of the knights - to women in particular. Lancelot and Tristram are terrible lovers compared to him, but then Gauvain has a half-dozen girlfriends. He always keeps his word, even when it's a bad idea. He likes to befriend potential enemies rather than kill them. Lancelot actually sometimes goes mad, and sometimes goes into a combat rage, like a barbarian or Cu Chulainn. He's not terribly charismatic - and is deeply introverted in the romances - particularly compared to Tristram. He sometimes kills people without asking enough questions. Merlin in practice would be a sorcerer (he inherited his powers from his incubus father). He's skilled at illusion, teleportation, divination, and evocation. He has high Cha and Int. Nimue is a skilled hunter as well as a magician, and she was taught magic by Merlin, rather than having it innately (though she may be based on the Irish goddess Niamh). Morgan learned her magic from books (maybe wizard, but she has a witch-like spell list). She is skilled with illusion, curses, enchantment, and healing. Other clearly mythic figures include Yder (who is based on a Celtic demigod), Yvain (son of Morgan, who has a lion as an animal companion), Gareth, Gauvain's little brother, who is essentially a reflex of Gawain's best traits, after Gawain is stained with murder, Palamedes, the Moorish knight (possibly the most honourable of all), and Galahad (basically a Paladin).
Changing Man wrote:
As an adoptive father I feel it would be awesome if Samsarans appeared to families and individuals who were unable to have children (same-sex, multi-species, infertility, singletons, whatever) in response to prayers to Pharasma (who, is, after all, the goddess of childbirth).
James Sutter wrote:
Is she at all inspired by the child-goddesses of Nepal?
[ DM Beckett wrote:
WW generally had gender parity among supernaturals - this being fairly logical - but not among mundanes (particularly in their pre-modern settings) - and it was set in an approximation of Earth. That won't work in terms of Pathfinder because PF doesn't have templates like vampires or werewolves as standard characters, and the average PC is a normal humanoid; plus, the whole rationale for depicting racism, sexism, and bigotry in the game is that it is a horror-genre version of our world, and not at least touching on these things would be a disservice to the genre (which can be about subverting these prejudices). That's simply not true of Golarion. If Golarion was a horror setting, some sort of prejudice would be part of the package, because horror thrives on injustice. But it's not. In Call of Cthulhu and Trail of Cthulhu, another setting based on horror and the real world, there's some racism and bigotry presented, but it comes from villainous or close-minded NPCs in the main. I noticed that Eternal Lies, Pelgrane's new campaign set in the '30s, features non-white sample PCs. There's some space for a GM to make the players of these characters miserable if they want to, but its not a standard part of the game. Nor should it be.
The problem with "hermaphrodite" is that it was used as a vaguely learned term of abuse for non-gender conforming people historically, such as in the 19th and early 20th century. For example, Madame Trianon, the associate of La Voisin (both witches implicated in the Affair of the Poisons in late 17th century Paris) was called one in an obviously bigoted way in older works I consulted when studying the subject.
Mikaze wrote:
I hope so. Of course, the South Asian word is deva/devi, which already exists in PF lore. There's a strain of Hinduism where everything is in some way an aspect of an immanent godhead, so in fact, the dirt under our feet, the air we breathe, and we ourselves, are all aspects of Brahm. Though some of the Hindu gods are the faces of unimaginable cosmic forces, they are not so different in the realm of stories from ordinary people. Like the Greek gods, but they tend, with the notable exception of Indra, who behaves much like Zeus - a sky god, king of the Devas, etc., to be a lot more thoughtful and compassionate. This is partly because the post-Vedic gods tend to be visualised as part of families (even Shiva has a family, though not an ordinary one: Parvati generated Ganesha without him out of loneliness, and Kartikeya… emerged from Shiva's third eye, and was cooled into humanoid form by Parvati in a watery form) - and hence are attributed emotions such as spousal, maternal and paternal love, which seems to figure so seldom among the Olympians.
Changing Man wrote:
It is a WIP. It's also nearly 300 pages long… The idea of a "Dark Yogi" and so forth is really frustrating to me. The themes explored in that project simplify Indian cosmology and religion in ways that really reflect a one-sided view of the whole issue of creation and destruction. In Indian pop culture, the "dark yogi" figure is usually a Tantrika following the Left-handed Way. The characteristic Tantrika villain is usually a sort of magician who worships Shiva and Kali as embodiments of black magic. In Western pop culture - i.e., the Temple of Doom, the same sort of character appears. It's deeply intolerant of a real religion. (It's along the lines of how Wicca was seen in the '80s). I have sympathies with Tantric beliefs because of their rejection of caste, gender roles, and rigid tradition, so I freely admit a certain personal take here. Now, real yogis were historically a mixed bunch, but most of the more villainous ones were amoral mercenaries, rather than trying to destroy the world. The wheel of karma is such that the world will be destroyed and reborn whether or not anyone takes a specific action, at least in traditional cosmology; that's the definition of "dharma." In other words, chaos and law needn't be associated with good or evil.
Changing Man wrote:
Sahasra - yeah. It's OK. The game world is sketched out - and the sourcebooks (pdf only) are essentially adaptations of RW Indian religions and folklore, with a strong bent towards modern orthodoxy. Not that that's bad, it's just very little to go on. As I recall, the publisher kinda went under, so perhaps it never had a chance to blossom. It's kind of like the old D&D Indian material - scattered in books and Dragon magazine - never enough to run something. If you're interested in running a PF or 3.5 game in real world India, the Sahasra stuff is worth getting. There's also GURPS India, which never came out. The draft circulates around the internet, though. That was crippled by a very specific religious viewpoint (orthodox Vaishnavism), in my opinion, as well as some caste/racism issues. Caste (and race) in India is as much a hot potato as race is in America, for similar reasons. Arrows of Indra makes some of the same mistakes. If Paizo takes on Vudra, they will have to present a world which is authentically fantasy South Asian and also shows Golarion's overall themes of heroism and magic rather than, say, racial and gender inequality and religious hatred. In my own setting, I picked a historical (sorta) India (8th-9th c) that had not been afflicted as badly with these problems as the later medieval and modern India. Hence, there are problems with gender, but they aren't insurmountable - Indian folklore had female and third-gender heroes and warriors - and religious conflict tends to be political rather than based on bigotry. The region is riven by war and Machiavellian statecraft, but not xenophobia. Kinda like the Hellenistic era in the West.
BTW, India just recognised the third gender (something the Sanskrit language did implicitly, so it's less of a cultural leap, though mainly for intellectuals. Actual day-to-day languages sometimes lost or never had this nuance). Nepal recognised the gender in 2011. The Sanskrit term is tritiya-prakriti - "third nature." The male or female (female is the default) pronouns are used based on whether the individual is expressing male or female gender norms (i.e., in the Kama Sutra and Kama Shastra), so the language doesn't really provide a non-dichotemy there. Note that Indian languages and pre-modern culture, like that of Greece and Rome, tends to indicate sexuality by activity rather than orientation (orientation wasn't as emphasised in their culture). There are more or less negative terms that are taken as equivalent, such as kliba, vadhri, which both mean eunuch, but that may or may not be true for the third gendered person. (Note that the Kama Sutra and Shastra identify male homosexuals as male-pronouned persons in the female category). Messy, but at least observant of difference.
What about Ursula Le Guin's coinage: a, un, a’s Although she prefers singular they, Ursula K. Le Guin used this paradigm, based on British dialect, in a 1985 screenplay for her novel The Left Hand of Darkness (1969); the novel itself uses he/his/him. "Is Gender Necessary? Redux" (1976, revised, 1987), in Dancing at the Edge of the World: Thoughts on Words, Women, Places (New York: Grove Press, 1989), p. 15. (see here) I saw this neat gallery of transitions at jezebel.
KahnyaGnorc wrote:
At the time of the Ancient Greeks, that area was inhabited by Celtic people. Actually, if you are talking about the era of the Trojan War, the Cimmerians were Iranian or Thracian. After the Cimmerians were the Scythians, who were also Iranian. The notion that Cimmerians = Celts seems to have developed from Robert E. Howard.
F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
Hi! Yep, have a whole setting homebrewed.
Kryzbyn wrote:
As it turns out, Kansas and Idaho didn't pass the law, but Arizona just did (warning: music/video). Not sure if if the Governor will sign it. One of the bill's sponsors defended it, arguing that it was already legal to fire gay (or trans*) people in AZ anyway.
Mikaze wrote:
Ghostwalk was and is a great idea. But then, I like White Wolf games... +1 to what Neil said.
Pan wrote:
People with a straight razor at your throat should be tipped well.
Tacticslion wrote:
In Renaissance Venice, the children of courtesans were raised in specially built "orphanages."
Set wrote:
That's matrilineal inheritance or kinship, rather than a matriarchy. There's a high caste warrior tribe in Kerala, India that uses a similar method (called Marumakkathayam among the Nair people). Family ties and inheritance through women, but men are in charge, at least overtly. Women are more important in this culture than the average in India, and are allowed to choose their partners (polyandry and temporary marriages used to happen among the Nairs), and in fact own the clan main houses (men live in smaller dwellings nearby or attached buildings). But their kings are men.
Actually, incubi are almost always (in non-PF literature and folklore) seducers. And satyrs or fauns are somewhat ambiguous; art and literature depicts them in various ways. Given that fey creatures had considerable overlap with demons and even ghosts, the gancanagh is essentially how the incubus was presented in medieval folklore. Of course, the principal seducers of women and men in Classical folklore were the gods themselves.
Garrett Guillotte wrote:
The incubus and the satyr are the main masculine monstrous seducers depicted in legend I can think of.
Readerbreeder wrote:
This used to drive me crazy when I worked in a library. A patron was checking out a brand new book and and told me how happy they were to get to break the spine. I fetched another newish book from the repair shelf and showed them the binding split in half and the pages falling out. New hardcovers (and any paperback) are poorly made and the glue doesn't hold for long if you do that. It's book abuse! don't make call the library police!
LazarX wrote:
Not British to my understanding, though certainly racist. Drow or Trow are certainly not dark-skinned in the original folklore. I believe they were confused/conflated with the Svartalfar, who aren't described as dark-skinned either, but were understood as so by literal reading of their name. Dark skin is implied as ugly in some medieval sources, usually as a slur on Moors or Saracens, though not here. That sort of generalization is typical of Spanish and French material most of all, though it appears with considerable ambiguity in Parzival. In Arthurian texts, the so-called "Ugly Brave" is a Moor or Black man (like Palamedes), with the implication that his bravery and honour is far more important than the colour of his skin.
I feel as I may be more attuned to racial privilege issues myself for two reasons: 1. I lived in the American South as a kid and was friends with black people in my school (it was a mostly white school with maybe <15% black kids). Its tough to be friends with people who are targeted by authority figures (administrators and teachers) completely on account of their perceived delinquency. (I.e., in a fight, the black kid almost always got worse punishment). Most black people I knew were stoic about it - drawing attention just drew more aggressive persecution. 2. My daughter is part African American. When I take her to the park, other kids have refused to play with her because of her skin color. Even when I overheard one kid tell their parent "I don't want to play with her because she's dirty" (i.e., has dark skin) the kid's parent refused to address this (this sort of thing has happened several times). I think that there is a human instinct - stronger in some of us than others - to exclude or avoid people who do not resemble our families. I'm pretty sure you have to pro-actively act to undercut this sort of childish racism before it becomes reflexive. Also, how one's parents react to people who are different tends model whether you act in a suspicious, uncaring, or fearful way to people who are different. It's partly this that suggests to me that the problem is white institutions and families not querying how they teach such reactions and not challenging the development of exclusionary affectionate patterns. After all, a major factor in the development of tolerance and even love for people who are queer, non-white, or disabled is actually have a real, non-aquaintence, friendship who is one of these things. But in fact, because children have a tendency to pick up on even slight non-verbal cues about our biases, it's quite easy to pass on low-level racism even if you don't intend to. Obviously I don't want to impart these prejudices to my daughter; and I wrestle with my own. I don't think we should be "satisfied" with human nature; we have to interrogate our biases. That's what privilege means to me: not having to ask one's self - did I not grant that person my regard and disinterested love for some irrational reason, and if it seems rational to me, is it in fact governed by fear? PS.
DM Under The Bridge wrote:
Ah, well. I always imagine angels, like bodhisttvas, having having a great deal of patience. It helps with children, hence it it's essential with mortals.
This has been bugging me for a while. I am white. My daughter (who is 4) is a quarter black. All the white people she meets either pretend that she's white or avoid mentioning it. The black people notice it, and compliment her on her hair and so forth. With a few exceptions, black people tell me she is beautiful. White people are either oblivious or being post-racial. They look at me funny. My daughter is adopted, but that is unimportant. When I hear and see a kid refuse to play with my daughter because she's different, it's physically painful. My sister is trans. Most people notice because she hasn't had the chance to transition and is in her 30s. Nobody tells her that she's beautiful. That's kinda sad. I wish she got to wear skirts when she was small, instead of androgynous clothes. That's what she does now. I want her to come out to SF or the Pacific NW so badly. We shouldn't have to be small to avoid attention. I have a rainbow bracelet my daughter made for me me that I am afraid to wear because of the quasi-violent cr*p I got from some random parents at the playground. I live in fracking CA! Everyone here reading this post is beautiful. Humanity is beautiful. I may have to move to a less integrated town, the town where I had the run-in I mention above, soon and the prospect makes me very unhappy. But my ex has moved away and my daughter wants me there. (Thank you for listening to my vent).
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