What about Golarion bugs you?


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Tels wrote:
I don't know how much of Greyhawk was explored (and I know Krynn is probably the most fleshed out of worlds), but I'd like to see Golarion have enough information published about that you don't feel a huge chunk is still 'mysterious and unexplored' unless that is the intention.

Actually, Krynn was one of the least explored, at least in canon. The purposefully left much of it named, and sometimes with a little bit of description, but otherwise usually completely up to the individual groups to be able to discover and interpret. DL had an entire other continent (Talados) that has not really been too explored, and possibly a few more that have never been officially explored, but very hinted to exist.

Greyhawk was pretty well explored, but in a different way than FR. While FR tended to have any and everything sort of crammed in, GH tended to more focus on an area's history and current politics, but still left some room for groups to add to it, within a certain framework (or completely if they wanted to ignore material, but that's true for any setting).

Of the three, I wish Golarion where much more like DL or GH, and great deal less like FR. So I kind of hope that they never go into much detail about any of the other continents, and honestly wish there had been less on the Inner Sea and Tian Xia, allowing people to put their own spin on things without worrying about canon material. It's so much more interesting that way.


DM Beckett wrote:
Tels wrote:
I don't know how much of Greyhawk was explored (and I know Krynn is probably the most fleshed out of worlds), but I'd like to see Golarion have enough information published about that you don't feel a huge chunk is still 'mysterious and unexplored' unless that is the intention.

Actually, Krynn was one of the least explored, at least in canon. The purposefully left much of it named, and sometimes with a little bit of description, but otherwise usually completely up to the individual groups to be able to discover and interpret. DL had an entire other continent (Talados) that has not really been too explored, and possibly a few more that have never been officially explored, but very hinted to exist.

Greyhawk was pretty well explored, but in a different way than FR. While FR tended to have any and everything sort of crammed in, GH tended to more focus on an area's history and current politics, but still left some room for groups to add to it, within a certain framework (or completely if they wanted to ignore material, but that's true for any setting).

Of the three, I wish Golarion where much more like DL or GH, and great deal less like FR. So I kind of hope that they never go into much detail about any of the other continents, and honestly wish there had been less on the Inner Sea and Tian Xia, allowing people to put their own spin on things without worrying about canon material. It's so much more interesting that way.

Not quite about Greyhawk, from what I see, the Flanaess, which is just a speck on Oerth, had been explored to death, we are only given hints on what lied beyond the desert.

Oh, and I like the names of places and people in Greyhawk so much more than those on Golarion.

Liberty's Edge

I'm a little late to this party, but the things I find that could use improvement include:

1) Lolth, you included Orcus, but not Lolth? At some point, she would have become aware of the drow on Golarion and start the seduction to bring them into the fold.

2) Yugoloths. Where are they? Where are the other common D&D critters like the Hook Horror, Cave Fisher, or Carrion Crawler? Is it a copyright thing or what?

3) Guns should have a loud noise component included in the item's stats. All I know is when I fire my gun at the range without hearing protection, my ears ring and I can't hear squat for several minutes :)

I'm sure there are other things but they escape me at the moment.


Aspasia de Malagant wrote:

I'm a little late to this party, but the things I find that could use improvement include:

1) Lolth, you included Orcus, but not Lolth? At some point, she would have become aware of the drow on Golarion and start the seduction to bring them into the fold.

2) Yugoloths. Where are they? Where are the other common D&D critters like the Hook Horror, Cave Fisher, or Carrion Crawler? Is it a copyright thing or what?

3) Guns should have a loud noise component included in the item's stats. All I know is when I fire my gun at the range without hearing protection, my ears ring and I can't hear squat for several minutes :)

I'm sure there are other things but they escape me at the moment.

1) Orcus is from mythology, while Lolth was invented by WOTC and is copyrighted

2) Yep...all copyrighted

Dark Archive

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Aspasia de Malagant wrote:
1) Lolth, you included Orcus, but not Lolth? At some point, she would have become aware of the drow on Golarion and start the seduction to bring them into the fold.

Orcus is a real world mythic figure, and (more importantly) also one that has been included in it's D&D interpretation in the Tome of Horrors, making it Open Content and usable.

Lolth is none of the above, and verboten. (Although there is a demon lord of vermin & bindings worshipped by the drow, named Mazmezz, who you could certainly slot into a Lolth-y niche, if you wanted...)

Ditto a few of my other favorites, like Grazzt, Demogorgon and Yeenoghu. All off-limits to any publisher not owning the rights to TSR's original intellectual property.

(Demogorgon is a special case, a name taken from mythology, and therefore usable, but in no way tied to an eighteen foot tall two-tailed simian with a pair of baboon heads and two giant octopus tentacles for arms. *That* Demogorgon is Wizards of the Coast IP all the way, and Paizo chose, rather than make up a completely different Demogorgon, to replace him entirely. Ditto figures like Tiamat, who they could use as her Babylonian elder serpent of chaos and darkness root, but *not* as the five headed chromatic dragon goddess who lives in Avernus and chased Hank, Bobby, etc. around that we all know and love.)

Quote:
2) Yugoloths. Where are they? Where are the other common D&D critters like the Hook Horror, Cave Fisher, or Carrion Crawler? Is it a copyright thing or what?

The word yugoloth, IIRC, is not available, and specific daemons-turned-loths (such as the nycadaemon and mezzodaemon) also weren't made Open Content (with the exception of those in the Tome of Horrors, the Cacodaemon, Charon, Charonadaemon, Derghodaemon, Guardian Daemon, Hydrodaemon, Oinodaemon and Piscodaemon).

Carrion Crawlers are one of a dozen-ish of the Monster Manual beasties that were removed from the online SRD, and returned to closed content (and therefore unusable to third parties), such as the Mind Flayer, Githyanki, Beholder, Displacer Beast, Yuan-Ti, etc.

Of them all, the Mind Flayer I kind of miss, and the Displacer Beast, most of all. The Gith races and the Beholder? Woo! Don't miss them at all. :)

Hook Horrors and Cave Fishers weren't in the 3.X Monster Manual I, so they are off-limits anyway. All the Monster Manual II, III, etc. and Fiend Folion, Monsters of Faerun, etc. beasties are off-limits without special permission from the IP owners (who have been very generous as it is keeping the majority of the Monster Manual I stuff available).

Quote:
3) Guns should have a loud noise component included in the item's stats. All I know is when I fire my gun at the range without hearing protection, my ears ring and I can't hear squat for several minutes :)

That's certainly a thing to consider, if you want to add that level of verisimilitude to your game.

But, generally speaking, D&D (and now, PF) has rarely, if ever, gone to that level of grittiness. There's no rules preventing someone from swinging a spiked chain around when surrounded by allies, even if that would be likely to hurt all of your friends. There's no rules for being rendered both permanently blind and deaf after being hit by a lightning bolt (or blue dragon's breath!). There's rarely (except in special cases, like slicer beetles or bebeliths, or sunder attacks that don't hurt the wearer at all) rules or mechanics for grievous wounds to affect your limbs or movement or to damage your worn armor.

Any sort of common sense ruling for firearms of this sort just begs the question why there aren't any common sense ruling for reach weapons being used in narrow corridors, or weapons taking damage from overuse and needing to be sharpened or repaired, or any of that other stuff that would probably just slow the game down.


Abyssal Lord wrote:
Tels wrote:
voska66 wrote:


The only thing that bugs me about Glorion is that we haven't seen much more than the Inner Sea region besides Dragon Empires. I'd like to see me more of the world.

I'd really like to see more of the world as well. I only ever played in Faerun before PAthfinder came out, but every time I looked for more information, it only seemed like a 1/4 of the globe had really been touched upon.

Arcadia especially, but Garund and Casmaron as well, need more exploration and information. The only things I really know of Casmaron (off the top of my head at least) is basically attached to the limtited information on Kelesh. Garund is arguably the next most 'explored' of the continents, and that's got a lot to do with the top half of Garund being apart of the 'Inner Sea' and the importance of the Osiriani empire. Arcadia has next to nothing known about it, apart from some mentions of Chelaxian colonies and that James Jacobs has stated Arcadia will be influenced by Native American (both North and South) history and culture.

Tian-Xia has a good deal of information, but there could always be more about it.

It seems Golarion is becoming another Forgotten Realms, with every thinly disguised human culture found in real life being shoe-horned in. How about leaving a huge blank area to be developed by each individual DM as they originally intended with Sembia in the Forgotten Realms?

I completely agree. I hated FR from the very start and it only became worse. It's discouraging. I know that it's sometimes difficult with time considerations and budgets to come up with all new ideas and cultures, but I do think that it'd be worth the effort.

Liberty's Edge

All good points, just didn't realize so much of the good stuff was copyrighted. Cursed copyrights...

Liberty's Edge

The same problem I have with many fantasy backgrounds. Humans almost away seem to be top of the food chain. No good explanation simply because the creators want them too.

I dislike Galt. A government in a perptual state of anarchy. Yet the only thing preventing them from being conquered is soul suck guillotines and a fantasy version of the KGB.

Too many cliches. The deserts have pharoahs. The Mwange expanse noble savages etc.

That's it for now.


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Abyssal Lord wrote:
It seems Golarion is becoming another Forgotten Realms, with every thinly disguised human culture found in real life being shoe-horned in. How about leaving a huge blank area to be developed by each individual DM as they originally intended with Sembia in the Forgotten Realms?

This is... such a strange statement to me.

It's actually two different complaints meshed together in a way that's really puzzling. Hopefully, I can help somewhat.

Abyssal Lord wrote:
It seems Golarion is becoming another Forgotten Realms, with every thinly disguised human culture found in real life being shoe-horned in.

First, there are some real-world cultural analogs within FR, but those analogs aren't "thinly disguised" - they're supposed to be the actual cultures that are actually from Earth that were transported there and that changed slightly over time. None of the others really mesh at all.

As far as Golarion goes, yes, there are some relatively obvious "expys" (or exports - I dunno, I didn't make up either term, it just seems popular, and short, so I'll use it from here on out) of real life cultures, but breaking them down into the nitty gritty starts to get highly variant very quickly, and not just because "magic".

Everyone agrees that Andoran and Galt are America and France, respectively. Osirion is Fantasy Hollywood Egypt. Sargava is South Africa. They have their own ins-and-outs and differences and similarities, but these are basically conceded.

Brevoy and Irrisen have strong Russian cultural elements, but do not look like Russia (Brevoy actually being one of the most potent similes of Fuedal anything that I can find in Golarion). Similarly Lands of the Linnorm Kings have Viking-elements but are not the Vikings, just as Qadira has Middle East elements but is not the Middle East. Nirmathas has some elements of Prussia or Germany while Nirmathas has a bit of Middle English rural.

Asking people what countries' Cheliax or Taldor are expys of will result in about six or seven very, very different answers.

Absalom, while referencing Israel and Jerusalem in some ways, is very, very different. Ustalav is "generic Gothic Horror land". Realm of the Mammoth Lords and the Shackles is basically a generic genre area, like Ustalav.

Druma, Five Kings Mountains, Hermea, Hold of Belkzen, Isger, Kyonin, Lastwall, Nidal, Razmiran, River Kingdoms, and World Wound have no direct analog anywhere in the real world (though Varisians, as a wondering people, do). Similarly Alkenstar, Geb, Nex, Thuvia (though it borrows some visuals), and Rahadoum.

That seems like a really, really impressive set of variety to me, and the way it's set up and the details within makes each really refreshing if you bother actually digging into it instead of just skimming the surface - there was a point when it bothered me too, a bit, but the more I get to know of Golarion, the less it seems just like a palette-swap, and the more it seems extremely creative

Maybe it's not that there's more non-expy culture than expy-culture - maybe it's just that there's an expy at all. In that case, I accept your dislike, as it's just personal taste!

Abyssal Lord wrote:
How about leaving a huge blank area to be developed by each individual DM as they originally intended with Sembia in the Forgotten Realms?

They have those. There's Arcadia, Azlant, Casmaron, Crown of the World, Southern Garund, and Sarusan. Those technically have some information about them, but little that is there actually impacts the Inner Sea (as written) at all, effectively making them blank canvases that a given GM can paint over all they like.

Of course, then there's the River Kingdoms, which fits your desires perfectly! It's always changing and there's lots "space" within!

If all of that isn't enough space, than it really seems that you're not looking for a world at all, which, again, doesn't really seem to be the fault of Golarion, so much as a personal taste clash. Which is cool.

Of course, one of the great things about Golarion is, the way it's set up, you can rather easily erase a name/culture/country on the map, replace it with one of your own, and still have a fairly viable world and self-coherent setting (depending on the country you replace it with, of course). I did something similar fairly recently with the entire Inner Sea region, Eberron, and Faerun, meshing several cultures into a singular whole (all determined randomly by dice rolling). While not too deeply explored, the resultant map and general look of the world, despite everything being in the same spots, was fascinating, and created a very different dynamic than any of those worlds, despite being based on them directly.


I wish the drow were just a bit more active, and not nigh-unheard-of myths.


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People complain about real world analogues and how parts of settings are basically copied and pasted in. They have a function. They convey a large amount of information about an area without having to put every little bit down in print. They are setting short hand. It leaves more space available for the different bits, important facts and special / different areas. It's a common usage from literature and a fairly obvious tool for setting design.

As for "different", it can be fun, but it's best placed within a known frame work. The "known space" gives players a place into which they can fit reasonably easily without having a degree in history or cultural anthropology (handy for setting design, I have both) or a "giant book of facts" on the setting. When you do run into the "different" things it makes them really stand out. In any case, if a "real world analogue" is done well it can be very good material and be an organic part of the setting.

One last comment on "real world" settings / cultures is that few people know much about them. They often think they do, but their level of knowledge is often superficial and there is usually a great deal to learn about even the most common tropes (i.e. feudal medieval). My 2 CP, as always ymmv.


Quote:
Hook Horrors and Cave Fishers weren't in the 3.X Monster Manual I, so they are off-limits anyway. All the Monster Manual II, III, etc. and Fiend Folion, Monsters of Faerun, etc. beasties are off-limits without special permission from the IP owners (who have been very generous as it is keeping the majority of the Monster Manual I stuff available).

Somebody didn't bought Bestiary 1 in which Cave Fisher are in. They are taken from Tome of Horrors, they were one of the outcast-creatures that D&D dropped and so TOH could use them!

Too bad Zorbo and the Metal Master didn't share their fate, for some miracle reasons D&D didn't want to share those forgotten critters or TOH didn't want them (Which would be ridiculous as they wanted much more stupid creatures)


Tacticslion wrote:
Abyssal Lord wrote:
It seems Golarion is becoming another Forgotten Realms, with every thinly disguised human culture found in real life being shoe-horned in. How about leaving a huge blank area to be developed by each individual DM as they originally intended with Sembia in the Forgotten Realms?

This is... such a strange statement to me.

It's actually two different complaints meshed together in a way that's really puzzling. Hopefully, I can help somewhat.

Abyssal Lord wrote:
It seems Golarion is becoming another Forgotten Realms, with every thinly disguised human culture found in real life being shoe-horned in.

First, there are some real-world cultural analogs within FR, but those analogs aren't "thinly disguised" - they're supposed to be the actual cultures that are actually from Earth that were transported there and that changed slightly over time. None of the others really mesh at all.

FR had the eqyptian and mesopotamian gated in slaves directly who rebelled and formed their own mulhorand and Unther countries but there are plenty of other analogue countries as well.

Maztica = central or south america.
Kara Tur = far east with ninjas and samurai.
Horde lands = Mongolia
Zakhara = Arabia
Chessenta = ancient greece
Moonshae = celtic isles


Voadam wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
Abyssal Lord wrote:
It seems Golarion is becoming another Forgotten Realms, with every thinly disguised human culture found in real life being shoe-horned in. How about leaving a huge blank area to be developed by each individual DM as they originally intended with Sembia in the Forgotten Realms?

This is... such a strange statement to me.

It's actually two different complaints meshed together in a way that's really puzzling. Hopefully, I can help somewhat.

Abyssal Lord wrote:
It seems Golarion is becoming another Forgotten Realms, with every thinly disguised human culture found in real life being shoe-horned in.

First, there are some real-world cultural analogs within FR, but those analogs aren't "thinly disguised" - they're supposed to be the actual cultures that are actually from Earth that were transported there and that changed slightly over time. None of the others really mesh at all.

FR had the eqyptian and mesopotamian gated in slaves directly who rebelled and formed their own mulhorand and Unther countries but there are plenty of other analogue countries as well.

Maztica = central or south america.
Kara Tur = far east with ninjas and samurai.
Horde lands = Mongolia
Zakhara = Arabia
Chessenta = ancient greece
Moonshae = celtic isles

Fair point about the first two and the third, but Chessenta never really came off as Ancient Greece to me at all, especially since it seemed so tied to Unther, by my recollection.

As far as Maztica, Kara Tur, and Zakhara, were those originally created for Forgotten Realms? It was my understanding that they were more ported into FR after the fact. That said, I'm rather certain, based on the few original elements to FR that I've run into, it seems that FR itself was built out interactions with other worlds, especially our own. That seems like a very solid reason for those connections - almost like they actually imported the cultures from Earth, modified for time distance and High Magic.

And, while certainly themed around some similarities, those similarities are pretty firmly topical-only - it kind of looks similar, but little that I've seen really functions well when attempting to compare them in the slightest.

Similarly, Moonshae translating to Celtic Isles and Hordelands translating to Mongolia seems to be only in the loosest and most delicate of ways - I would never even have perceived the Moonshae/Celt connection until you purposefully pointed it out now.

That said, it's quite possible that, as I was only introduced in 3rd Edition (we made up our own worlds prior to that) that I'm missing something from the older publications. That's certainly a possibility.

Also, I do understand the difference in preferences. Which is okay.

If you'd like to continue this discussion, I'm always ready to be schooled, but let's continue it in a different thread. It's a bit off-topic here. :)


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Tacticslion wrote:
Voadam wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
Abyssal Lord wrote:
It seems Golarion is becoming another Forgotten Realms, with every thinly disguised human culture found in real life being shoe-horned in. How about leaving a huge blank area to be developed by each individual DM as they originally intended with Sembia in the Forgotten Realms?

This is... such a strange statement to me.

It's actually two different complaints meshed together in a way that's really puzzling. Hopefully, I can help somewhat.

Abyssal Lord wrote:
It seems Golarion is becoming another Forgotten Realms, with every thinly disguised human culture found in real life being shoe-horned in.

First, there are some real-world cultural analogs within FR, but those analogs aren't "thinly disguised" - they're supposed to be the actual cultures that are actually from Earth that were transported there and that changed slightly over time. None of the others really mesh at all.

FR had the eqyptian and mesopotamian gated in slaves directly who rebelled and formed their own mulhorand and Unther countries but there are plenty of other analogue countries as well.

Maztica = central or south america.
Kara Tur = far east with ninjas and samurai.
Horde lands = Mongolia
Zakhara = Arabia
Chessenta = ancient greece
Moonshae = celtic isles

Fair point about the first two and the third, but Chessenta never really came off as Ancient Greece to me at all, especially since it seemed so tied to Unther, by my recollection.

As far as Maztica, Kara Tur, and Zakhara, were those originally created for Forgotten Realms? It was my understanding that they were more ported into FR after the fact. That said, I'm rather certain, based on the few original elements to FR that I've run into, it seems that FR itself was built out interactions with other worlds, especially our own. That seems like a very solid reason for those connections - almost like they actually imported the cultures from...

Kara Tur was explicitly separate setting presented in 1st edition (I think) Oriental Adventures that was glued to Forgotten Realms. Zakhara also has seemed to be separate setting glued to Forgotten Realms to ride on its popularity. I am not sure about Maztica but it is quite possible to have been that too.

Horde Lands might have been added as a bridge between Kara Tur and Forgotten Realms or they might have been part of original Kara Tur, I don't remember.

Chessenta actually seemed to be closer to Semitic city states than Greece - and had an excuse of being colonized by Untheric dissidents (i.e. mix of descendants of Egyptians and Babylonians/Semitic people abducted from Earth by Imaskari).

Moonshae IIRC was intended to be land of druids which led to leaning too much on celts as inspiration. Anyone thought of those islands anyway? I don't recall knowing anyone ever playing in that area or even playing character coming from there...


The Ffolk were very Celtic, specifically Welsh, with a bit of Scottish. The use of "Caer" (Welsh for fortress or castle), the Isle of Gwyneth (Anglicized spelling of the Welsh kingdom of Gwynedd), and very Arthurian Caer Callidyrr, home to the High King.

The Northmen in the Moonshaes are very Nordic, inspired by the Norse who settled in the Hebrides and the Norse/Scottish Lordship of the Isles.


Very cool info, guys! Also... let's move into a different thread?


I thought of another thing that bugs me. While I like a lot of the gods, some of them always strike me as underwhelming. Really, the pantheon presented I can find few problems with, but some of them I dislike.

Essentially, my main problems are with gods that seem to only exist because they had to. Like Iomedae. She's essentially the Paladin Goddess. She was a paladin in life, she was a paladin as Aroden's herald, and she's a paladin in godhood. Her Paladins are paladins, her clerics are paladins, her Inquisitors are scary paladins. That's the flavor given, and there's not much more there. The only thing that I find at all interesting is how she occasionally will meet with Asmodeus and use him as an advisor, even while keeping him at arms length. But that, I think, says more about Asmodeus than it does her.

Likewise, I'm less than pleased with Gorum. It seems like he exists solely because Golarion needed a CN war god. He doesn't seem to have much depth beyond that. He exists to fight, and that's about it. Essentially, he is almost to Barbarians as Iomedae is to Paladins, but not quite, because of the whole heavy armor deal, that he's always presented as wearing.

Nethys is better, in my mind than the above two, but he still seems like he only exists because Golarion needed a Magic god. The dualistic nature is interesting, but also makes it hard to picture why anyone would worship a god that conflicted.

Apart from them, there are some gods I have a few minor nit-picks with. Torag is an interesting deity, but the fact that he's so Dwarf-centric really hurts him in my mind. I think it's neat to contrast gods like Torag and Sarenrae, who are both good, but are completely at odds with one another, theologically, much the same way Abadar and Erastil are at odds, despite both being lawful. The problem is, it's hard to explain why he'd be worshiped by non-dwarves, and often whenever I've seen people play Dwarves, they don't want to pick him, because they don't want to pick just the stereotypical dwarven deity.

Also Cayden Cailean would be an alright god if not for him being an ascended god. As I think I mentioned before, his ascension cheapens the concept of a god, because, if even a drunkard (albeit, perhaps an exceptional drunkard) can become a god, then it's clearly not a very picky club. Even without that, he wouldn't be my cup of tea, because too often people play his worshipers as "Tee hee, look at how drunk I can get; I'm so worshiping, right now". I used to play up more the "Liberation" domain as his whole deal, but since the designers axed that, and decided that boozing and whoring was more important to his divinity, it's harder to do so.

The last one that I can really nit-pick is Rovagug. While interesting for his role in uniting the gods to lock him away, he really doesn't serve much of a role as one of the big 20. His role is very much the same as Tharizdun, as a Chaotic Evil god who is the enemy of the major Neutral Good Sun god, who all the other gods, good and evil alike, came together to seal him away, in order to protect the universe from total obliteration. However, in this role, he isn't nearly as effective, largely, in my mind, because it's not some sort of madness that drives him and his followers, but an almost animalistic lust for destruction. And, for me, it's madness that's more fun to play with, both as a player and as a DM. Fortunately, since the Elder Gods are statted up, There's at least somewhere that I can find good old fashioned Chaotic Evil cosmic madness.

There are also a few gods which really are just 'there.' They're deities that I don't think I've ever seen really made use of all that well. I don't dislike them, but I also just sometimes forget that they even exist. For the most part, Calistria and Desna make up this subset, with less often Irori and Gozreh joining them.

Maybe my mental picture for some of them are wrong, and maybe I just skipped over somewhere that shows greater depth for some of them, but at least from where I sit, these are the deities which really seem to bug me.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Paulicus wrote:
I wish the drow were just a bit more active, and not nigh-unheard-of myths.

I'd be even happier if this artifact of British crypto-racism (White skinned elves good... darkie skinned elves evil) were not in the setting at all.


Tholomyes wrote:
Stuff

For the most part, I agree with the above. Some of the Gods obviously don't have the same development as others, and I think that is, in large part, due to the Campaign team wanting to only publish info about 'their babies' instead of trying to give equal attention to all the gods. They've published articles about them in the back of APs and stuff, but several of the gods just don't have the same stories and impact as a number of gods, like Pharasma, Sarenrae, and Asmodeus (to name the big three).

I've read all the articles I can on the 20 gods in the pantheon, but the ones that have always stuck out, at least to me, were Asmodeus, Saranrae, Pharasma, Zon-Kuthon, Shelyn (largely due to Zon-Kuthon), Desna, and Urgathoa.

Each of the above has something really interesting about them, some personality quirk or backstory event that causes them to stand out above the other gods.

Then you've got gods like Gorum, Torag, Iomedae, and Irori who seem to exist 'because they need to' rather than have any truly interesting backstories and development.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tels wrote:


Then you've got gods like Gorum, Torag, Iomedae, and Irori who seem to exist 'because they need to' rather than have any truly interesting backstories and development.

I don't see where you don't find backstory on Iomedae. She has significant history as a mortal Crusader, chosen herald of Iomedae, and one of the three Ascended Gods. What more could you ask for, her breakfast preferences? (Coffee, eggs, and angelfood cake :)

Shadow Lodge

Tholomyes wrote:
Also Cayden Cailean would be an alright god if not for him being an ascended god. As I think I mentioned before, his ascension cheapens the concept of a god, because, if even a drunkard (albeit, perhaps an exceptional drunkard) can become a god, then it's clearly not a very picky club. Even without that, he wouldn't be my cup of tea, because too often people play his worshipers as "Tee hee, look at how drunk I can get; I'm so worshiping, right now". I used to play up more the "Liberation" domain as his whole deal, but since the designers axed that, and decided that boozing and whoring was more important to his divinity, it's harder to do so.

Yah, basically someone thought it would be challenging the concepts of good to include a drunk deity of drinking. Something like that.

Dark Archive

Iomedae, following up on 'Paladin gods' like Torm (in the Realms, who, IMO, was deadly dull, but then got a major boost in Tantras / the Time of Troubles), Heironeous (with the cool positive energy lightning bolt / dipped in river and made invulnerable aspect, and the only 'paladin god' to have something other than the boring old longsword as a favored weapon) and Corean (from the Scarred Lands, a god of the blacksmith and fire, as well as Paladins), seems to lack any 'hook' other than 'Paladin god' and 'also, a chick.'

I do like that she seems to have been, like Torm, a lesser deity who was a 'good soldier' to more powerful gods, and ascended to their ranks. It has a sort of selfless aspect that fits a Paladin god, IMO.

More information on her Herculean 'twelve labors' (which might already exist in a book I haven't read yet...) might help to give her a little more flavor (just as Heironeous' story ripped off Achilles and / or Sigmund and his own invulnerable skin-bath). It could even work it's way into game mechanics, with a series of twelve revelations or domain powers or spells reflective of her twelve trials (or, heck, they could all be different, with one Combat feat and one cleric spell and one oracle revelation, etc.).

I think even the less (currently) interesting Golarion gods are one enthusiastic writer away from being totally cool. As mentioned upthread, some of them seem to inspire members among the Paizo staff, and that enthusiasm spills onto the page. Those who haven't quite lit a fire under anyone's butt just need someone to champion them.

Previous settings have had their share of deadly dull gods, with the Scarred Lands, by dint of only having one major god per alignment axis, probably having the most individually compelling gods (since there weren't three LG major gods competing for one axis, and therefore the one LG god had to cover a lot of ground and appeal to lots of folk).


LazarX wrote:
Tels wrote:


Then you've got gods like Gorum, Torag, Iomedae, and Irori who seem to exist 'because they need to' rather than have any truly interesting backstories and development.

I don't see where you don't find backstory on Iomedae. She has significant history as a mortal Crusader, chosen herald of Iomedae, and one of the three Ascended Gods. What more could you ask for, her breakfast preferences? (Coffee, eggs, and angelfood cake :)

Oh, there is plenty of backstory, just not very interesting. She goes from being a Paladin, to being a Paladin Herald, to being a Paladin Goddess.

Where as you've got a Goddess like Desna, the flighty butterfly of the stars, dreams, luck and travel. She's peaceful by nature, and just wants to play, but because of her domains (night sky and dreams) she is constantly under assault by other gods or forces like Zon-Kuthon, Rovagug or the Great Old Ones. As a peaceful Goddess, she's always in conflict with others, here's an excerpt from Gods and Magic:

Gods and Magic wrote:
She battles Zon-Kuthon because she wants the night to remain a time of wonder rather than of fear and oppression, Rovagug contests for the void of space where her stars reside, and her battles with Ghlaunder and Lamashtu are ongoing. Desna’s only sources of comfort among the deities are Sarenrae, who tends to her wounds after battling the evils of the night, and Shelyn, who ever reinvigorates her spirits and creates new wonders to be explored.

Out of all the goodly good (or neutral ones) her only real allies are Saranrae and Shelyn.

Or you've got that whole Zon-Kuthon/Shelyn sibling backstory, or Urgathoa being the first undead, bringer of disease and rival of Pharasma.

Iomedae is basically just a Paladin.
Torag is the Dwarfiest God of the Dwarven Gods.
Irori is the Monk God.
Gorum is the heavily armored God of War.
Caydean is the Drunk God of Whenching and Fighting.
Norgorber is the Secret God of Secerts and Murder (also thieves, but that's just a side point to him).

Many of the other Gods can't be summed up so simply.


To be honest I've never understood the gods or worship of them in Golarion. There's different aspects of some gods; other gods have saints but no real method of sainthood other than storytelling and fiat. Some people worship one way, some another, and that's fine, but their buildings of worship are scattered, varied and ill-defined even in lawful deities.

Take for example Pharasma. I know that the faith is all aspects of Lawful, but Law is a major tenet. That to me screams there should be well defined church hierarchy but I find none that's consistent across the few sources I've consulted. Is there a pope type, then the arch-bishops and so on down to deacons? Is there an orthodox sect versus an evangelical? How are monastics treated or are they considered heretical?

In some areas there's churches of related gods but in others there's churches to singular faiths. Is this purely based on economics? It's cheaper to cram 3 holy symbols into your new church than to build 3 churches after all.

And how do folks worship? Is there a weekly/monthly service? Do they only meet in prayer on high holy days? Are mortal souls damned if they don't at least throw out a "hail Pharasma" once in a while as they enter the courthouse?

What is the DEAL with gods in Golarion? (and yes; that was my best Seinfeld)


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Mark Hoover wrote:

To be honest I've never understood the gods or worship of them in Golarion. There's different aspects of some gods; other gods have saints but no real method of sainthood other than storytelling and fiat. Some people worship one way, some another, and that's fine, but their buildings of worship are scattered, varied and ill-defined even in lawful deities.

Take for example Pharasma. I know that the faith is all aspects of Lawful, but Law is a major tenet. That to me screams there should be well defined church hierarchy but I find none that's consistent across the few sources I've consulted. Is there a pope type, then the arch-bishops and so on down to deacons? Is there an orthodox sect versus an evangelical? How are monastics treated or are they considered heretical?

In some areas there's churches of related gods but in others there's churches to singular faiths. Is this purely based on economics? It's cheaper to cram 3 holy symbols into your new church than to build 3 churches after all.

And how do folks worship? Is there a weekly/monthly service? Do they only meet in prayer on high holy days? Are mortal souls damned if they don't at least throw out a "hail Pharasma" once in a while as they enter the courthouse?

What is the DEAL with gods in Golarion? (and yes; that was my best Seinfeld)

Pharasma is the True Neutral Goddess of death, prophecy and childbirth. Not sure why you think she's heavily associated with law. As far as I can tell, Pharasma's temples are also serve as morgues and cemetaries. While she's associated with judging souls, she's not really a God of judgement in-as-much as someone like Abadar or even Iomedae would be.


Tels wrote:


Pharasma is the True Neutral Goddess of death, prophecy and childbirth. Not sure why you think she's heavily associated with law. As far as I can tell, Pharasma's temples are also serve as morgues and cemetaries. While she's associated with judging souls, she's not really a God of judgement in-as-much as someone like Abadar or even Iomedae would be.

That right there. Do ALL of them serve that way, or is that just a convenient association. I screwed up the law thing, but I know for a fact Abadar is all about law and some of his temples are mercantile buildings. But in both instances...which comes first?

In RL back in the day you might have moneylenders inside the church, but the church building was primarily for worship and on the side they'd change money. Well in Golarion do we just switch it? Cemeteries are MAINLY for dead people but every so often there's a Pharasmin clergy member there.

I guess I'm overthinking it but it just seems like there's no cohesive logic to it, as if every region, and every major settlement in that region basically sets their own rules for worship, the day-to-day of their faith and where they practice.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mark Hoover wrote:


I guess I'm overthinking it but it just seems like there's no cohesive logic to it, as if every region, and every major settlement in that region basically sets their own rules for worship, the day-to-day of their faith and where they practice.

And the problem with that is....? This isn't a Church of the One God deal after all.


Mark Hoover wrote:
Tels wrote:


Pharasma is the True Neutral Goddess of death, prophecy and childbirth. Not sure why you think she's heavily associated with law. As far as I can tell, Pharasma's temples are also serve as morgues and cemetaries. While she's associated with judging souls, she's not really a God of judgement in-as-much as someone like Abadar or even Iomedae would be.

That right there. Do ALL of them serve that way, or is that just a convenient association. I screwed up the law thing, but I know for a fact Abadar is all about law and some of his temples are mercantile buildings. But in both instances...which comes first?

In RL back in the day you might have moneylenders inside the church, but the church building was primarily for worship and on the side they'd change money. Well in Golarion do we just switch it? Cemeteries are MAINLY for dead people but every so often there's a Pharasmin clergy member there.

I guess I'm overthinking it but it just seems like there's no cohesive logic to it, as if every region, and every major settlement in that region basically sets their own rules for worship, the day-to-day of their faith and where they practice.

As a general rule, I would say yes, Pharasman churches are also cemetaries/morgues. Pharasma isn't just the Goddess of death, she's also the shepherd of the dead; she guides the souls of the dead to her boneyard for judgement.

In the same vein, I see her followers (especially clerics) as those that would tend to the dead, and see to it they received the proper burials and blessings. Hopefully, it would prevent them from rising from the dead.

As an example, look at Korvosa. The Temple to Pharasma is also the cemetery for the city and is so large it is considered it's own district.

Similarly do Churches of Abadar function as banks. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, they aren't referred to as churches or temples at all, but rather considered 'Banks' first and foremost, as they can be trusted to safeguard the wealth and precious items of the cities.

Shadow Lodge

Mark Hoover wrote:
Tels wrote:


Pharasma is the True Neutral Goddess of death, prophecy and childbirth. Not sure why you think she's heavily associated with law. As far as I can tell, Pharasma's temples are also serve as morgues and cemetaries. While she's associated with judging souls, she's not really a God of judgement in-as-much as someone like Abadar or even Iomedae would be.
That right there. Do ALL of them serve that way, or is that just a convenient association.

Not all of them serve there, but all of them hold that protecting the bodies and resting places of the dead is an important duty, because it's a tenet of the faith. Other examples of common Pharasma duties are midwives, healers, librarians, and scribes. It's an association, but not really convenient. Pharasma is all about death (not undeath), knowledge, birth, & prophecy. Each major church has a head for the three aspects (life/childbirth, death/guarding the dead, and prophecy/knowledge) with equal power. They just oversee differnt aspects of the faithful, different duties.

Like with all faiths, individuals, factions, and churches will probably find one or more of the tenets more important than the others, but will usually hold all of them as important.


Are all monks like Hi-Ya kung-fu types? Are there any monasteries around golarion and it's religions that are more like western Europe? I'll admit I'm a total noob to the setting having always homebrewed. I've just picked up the Guide to Darkmoon Vale with the intention of partially homebrewing a mini-campaign there but I'm wondering about the rest of the setting. Do other churches besides Irori have monasteries, and if so, do they have to be folks that use unarmed flurries or can they just have tonsures and brew beer while inventing pretzels?

Shadow Lodge

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Set wrote:
More information on her Herculean 'twelve labors' (which might already exist in a book I haven't read yet...) might help to give her a little more flavor

Here you go:
First: She slew the fell beast Nakorshor’mond and cut the still-sleeping bodies of her circle from its gullets.

Second: She defeated a coven of Garundi witches, freeing the city of Eleder from their tyranny.
Third: While riding a griffon in an aerial battle, she cut the wings from Segruchen the Iron Gargoyle, so-called King of the Barrowood. While falling and before he could escape, she pursued and slew him.
Fourth: With heartfelt words and a prayer to Arazni, she convinced a regiment of mortally wounded knights at the Second Battle of Encarthan to hold back a wave of wraiths long enough for reinforcements to arrive at dawn to save them.
Fifth: She smote Erum-Hel, Lord of the Morghs, at the Battle of Three Sorrows (where the Whispering Tyrant returned Arazni’s body to the Knights of Ozem). This drove Erum-Hel to flee, crippled, to Orv.
Sixth: After the Whispering Tyrant used magic to break her sword, she fused it together with a prayer and an oath to bring an end to his evil, with her pure heart and righteous ire reforging it in an instant.
Seventh: An image of Iomedae appeared at a shrine to Aroden in Absalom, healing anyone virtuous who touched it and burning wicked folk who came too near. When she later became a goddess, the shrine was expanded into a temple dedicated to her, named the Seventh Church.
Eighth: She convinced the graveknight known only as the Black Prince to throw himself upon his sword as punishment for his evil. This reversed his undead state, redeeming his soul and allowing him to be judged in the Halls of Aroden.
Ninth: She gave nine drops of her blood to free nine righteous knights imprisoned by the vampire-mage Basilov; she and the knights then slew him when he attempted to recapture them.
Tenth: She ruled the city of Kantaria for a year and a day while its lord, heirless patriarch of House Narikopolous, was missing. The city prospered despite constant attacks by shapechanging horrors—horrors which she battled personally.
Eleventh: At the Pit of the Starstone in Absalom, she cast her cloak of common wool before her. It straightened and expanded to become a firm walkway across the gap, allowing her to enter the Cathedral and take the Test.


Monks as per the class are martial artists, of the kung-fu-kick! style (most of them), the serene mystic style (ki mystic, healing hand), the twang-twang-twang-twang-twang-twang style (zen archer), or the wax on, wax off style (sensei).

However, you can certainly have a group of people called monks who do what you said there. They would probably be clerics, possibly using the Cloistered cleric archetype, Adepts, or experts -- though not invariably. A Golarion equivalent of Brother Cadfael, for example, would have several levels of Investigator or Detective Bard.

Sovereign Court Contributor

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LazarX wrote:
Paulicus wrote:
I wish the drow were just a bit more active, and not nigh-unheard-of myths.
I'd be even happier if this artifact of British crypto-racism (White skinned elves good... darkie skinned elves evil) were not in the setting at all.

Not British to my understanding, though certainly racist. Drow or Trow are certainly not dark-skinned in the original folklore. I believe they were confused/conflated with the Svartalfar, who aren't described as dark-skinned either, but were understood as so by literal reading of their name.

Dark skin is implied as ugly in some medieval sources, usually as a slur on Moors or Saracens, though not here. That sort of generalization is typical of Spanish and French material most of all, though it appears with considerable ambiguity in Parzival. In Arthurian texts, the so-called "Ugly Brave" is a Moor or Black man (like Palamedes), with the implication that his bravery and honour is far more important than the colour of his skin.


Like D&D, too much of different monsters.

In my opinion, many monsters could grouped into one, with different cultures.

Humon has good example: http://fav.me/d4cq5ur
Even for dinosaurs species, 1/3 of them are actually other species, just different age. http://derekpgilbert.com/?p=3468


Bunnyboy wrote:

Like D&D, too much of different monsters.

In my opinion, many monsters could grouped into one, with different cultures.

Humon has good example: http://fav.me/d4cq5ur
Even for dinosaurs species, 1/3 of them are actually other species, just different age. http://derekpgilbert.com/?p=3468

While I agree with you on some dinosaurs (I think bestiary 4 added only the dimorphodon, the others could be replaced by bestiary 1 dinosaurs and Therizinosaurus would be a much better choise) I disagree with you on monsters, of course some monsters look much like others and wouldn't be missed by me at all when they were left out (I'm looking at you Hobgoblin and Tiefling) I think more variation is good.

I would hate it if we only had bestiary 1 to work with and I hope many more bestiaries gonna happen, if you hate that just don't buy more than just the first, but you don't know what you are missing cuz all the good stuff is in bestiary 2, 3 and 4, not in the monster manual uhm I mean bestiary 1.


I feel I should point out that Jack Horner's views on dinosaur taxonomy don't necessarily reflect the consensus of dinosaur workers. There are still pretty fierce arguments over whether Torosaurus = Triceratops, and similar issues.


Nothing wrong with variation, but only having an different name and some minor changes won't make new monster race. Instead, many creatures could have variation in their race.

Human have more ethnicities in golarion than I can remember. And many of them have even their sub-ethnicities. Elves have drow, the Mordant elves and forlorn elves. Ice elves and jungle elves are hardly even mentioned. But rest of creatures are mostly only the mass without any differences within their races.

Instead of deepening the existing monsters, many new monsters are old monsters with some small adjustment and new name. Instead of boblin, zoblin and xoblin, I would like to see cultural variations of normal goblin. Seafaring goblin pirates, goblin hordes migrating like lemmings or warrior ants, urban ganster goblins, etc.


Ugh that is much like D&D did, I hated the 4th edition monster manuals with 10.000 goblins, kobolds and most of all my-most-hated monster of all times 10 million Hobgoblins in it.

I'm glad pathfinder doesn't do that.


LazarX wrote:
Paulicus wrote:
I wish the drow were just a bit more active, and not nigh-unheard-of myths.
I'd be even happier if this artifact of British crypto-racism (White skinned elves good... darkie skinned elves evil) were not in the setting at all.

It's not derived from British anything ... the distinction between light-elves and dark-elves comes from Scandinavian mythology, and kind of predates the concept of race by several centuries. Though I agree it looks a bit odd now if you approach it from that viewpoint.


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I'm not a big fan of Andoran or Galt; adding American and French Revolutions seems to me to be a step too far away from the Medieval or at most Renaissance / Early Modern stuff of the rest of the world culturally.

Andoran, Galt and Alkenstar seem to me sort of like they belong on a different planet, or a different campaign setting.


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KtA wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Paulicus wrote:
I wish the drow were just a bit more active, and not nigh-unheard-of myths.
I'd be even happier if this artifact of British crypto-racism (White skinned elves good... darkie skinned elves evil) were not in the setting at all.
It's not derived from British anything ... the distinction between light-elves and dark-elves comes from Scandinavian mythology, and kind of predates the concept of race by several centuries. Though I agree it looks a bit odd now if you approach it from that viewpoint.

A fair point, and it's true that even in Norse mythology they had dark or light skin tones depending on their race. I think that elves vs. dark elves, their origins being what they are, are more an example of white being a metaphor for good and black being a metaphor for evil, and this is a conflict that far predates encounters with humans of other races or skin tones. It gets muddied because we chose to use the phrases "black" and "white" to describe ourselves or others - words that already had strong traditions of association with good and evil. Obviously, the words have more applications than simply that, but in a language where a single word has five or more entries in a dictionary, sometimes those definitions are going to get mixed up, swapped around, and misinterpreted to the point that such differing interpretations of meaning become pretty prominent in mainstream culture.

So, a couple things...

First of all, evil or not, dark-skinned elves look TOTALLY RAD, so I'd hate to see them vanish from the game.

Still, if it DOES bother people, we've also got the seelie/unseelie tradition to draw from. Perhaps, in the next big fantasy setting (too late for Golarion, I'm afraid), our underground, dark-skinned elves are simply a reclusive, non-evil subrace of elves along the line of wild elves and sea elves, while our usual high elves are split into good and evil courts.


pipedreamsam wrote:
Nothing. If I do not like something I simply change it, I usually play the GM anyway =P.

This, of course, is the correct answer. Everything is malleable in a RPG, and therein lies their beauty. It is also why no computer or console RPG will ever match pen and paper.

Dark Archive

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martinaj wrote:
Perhaps, in the next big fantasy setting (too late for Golarion, I'm afraid), our underground, dark-skinned elves are simply a reclusive, non-evil subrace of elves along the line of wild elves and sea elves, while our usual high elves are split into good and evil courts.

While I agree that I love the appearance of 'dark elves' in the game, I think it would make for a scarier setting if there was a culture of CE demon worshipping 'dark elves' and a culture of CG fluffy bunny 'high elves' and *they looked exactly the same.*

They wouldn't be 'color coded for your convenience,' and a human would have no idea whether the elf he was chatting up was smiling because she thinks he's cute and wants to discuss proper recycling techniques with him, or is smiling because she's imagining how he'll scream when she has him on the altar and is slicing off his skin in strips.

At least with D&D elves, the color coding wasn't 100%, blackbad, whitegood. The palest of pale elves, the sun-bleached 'gray' elves, tended to be the most isolationist and 'elven supremacist' of the non-Drow elves, while the human-friendlier elves were the marginally darker 'high' and darker still 'wood' elves (veering back into isolationism and aggression with the 'nut-brown' Grugach or wild elves, and outright CE psychocrazy with the 'dark' elves).

Heck, the skin color thing isn't the only unfortunate implication to crop up with the Drow. Introduced as the only matriarchal society in a setting, and portrayed as *invariably* chaotic, evil and / or crazy, could be seen by some as a subtle dig that a matriarchal society is incapable of being anything other than unnatural and wrong.


Set wrote:
Heck, the skin color thing isn't the only unfortunate implication to crop up with the Drow. Introduced as the only matriarchal society in a setting, and portrayed as *invariably* chaotic, evil and / or crazy, could be seen by some as a subtle dig that a matriarchal society is incapable of being anything other than unnatural and wrong.

Is this true?

I kind of thought the Lashunta were matriarchal, and Cheliax, or at least Thrune, is also relatively matriarchal from my reading (though, admittedly, that doesn't send a good picture; it's also odd considering hell's general misogyny), and the surface elves are, at least, ruled by a chaotic good queen (though that doesn't mean it's also a matriarchy; I don't actually recall enough about their society). As far as Golarion goes, I kind of thought the matriarchal elements were something like a twisted reflection of the elven divine: Calistria was, after all, the high god (at least one of the Big 20 on Golarion), so I kind of see it as a twist on that.

If you're talking about D&D, there was Eilistraee who was just as matriarchal and of a distinctly opposing alignment.

I also have this feeling I'm forgetting something else matriarchal in PF, but, eh... I can't remember so it doesn't count.

That said, it's interesting to compare the matriarchal drow (CE demon worshipers of twisted experiments, high magic, and cruelty) to the patriarchal Erastil (LG hunter/farmer god of nature, simple living, and community). Then comparing Erastil to, say Iomadae, or to Desna/Sarenrae/Shelyn's whole thing.

I also vaguely recall James saying somewhere that I considers the Abyss (and demonic forces) more feminine while he considers Hell (and Infernal forces) more masculine. I can't recall where, but that might also be an interesting source of their sexual (and thus social) arcano-dimorphism*.

Oh yeah! I just remembered another matriarch! It's Irrisen! The winter... witch...es... oh. Uh... hm.

Still, I'm also hard pressed to actually come up with specific patriarchies outside of Hell itself.

* Look, I'm making this up, I dunno what the term is.


Tacticslion wrote:
Set wrote:
Heck, the skin color thing isn't the only unfortunate implication to crop up with the Drow. Introduced as the only matriarchal society in a setting, and portrayed as *invariably* chaotic, evil and / or crazy, could be seen by some as a subtle dig that a matriarchal society is incapable of being anything other than unnatural and wrong.

Is this true?

I kind of thought the Lashunta were matriarchal, and Cheliax, or at least Thrune, is also relatively matriarchal from my reading (though, admittedly, that doesn't send a good picture; it's also odd considering hell's general misogyny), and the surface elves are, at least, ruled by a chaotic good queen (though that doesn't mean it's also a matriarchy; I don't actually recall enough about their society). As far as Golarion goes, I kind of thought the matriarchal elements were something like a twisted reflection of the elven divine: Calistria was, after all, the high god (at least one of the Big 20 on Golarion), so I kind of see it as a twist on that.

If you're talking about D&D, there was Eilistraee who was just as matriarchal and of a distinctly opposing alignment.

I also have this feeling I'm forgetting something else matriarchal in PF, but, eh... I can't remember so it doesn't count.

That said, it's interesting to compare the matriarchal drow (CE demon worshipers of twisted experiments, high magic, and cruelty) to the patriarchal Erastil (LG hunter/farmer god of nature, simple living, and community). Then comparing Erastil to, say Iomadae, or to Desna/Sarenrae/Shelyn's whole thing.

I also vaguely recall James saying somewhere that I considers the Abyss (and demonic forces) more feminine while he considers Hell (and Infernal forces) more masculine. I can't recall where, but that might also be an interesting source of their sexual (and thus social) arcano-dimorphism*.

Oh yeah! I just remembered another matriarch! It's Irrisen! The winter... witch...es... oh. Uh... hm.

Still, I'm also hard pressed to actually come up...

James has mentioned Hell is masculine and the Abyss is feminine on several occasions in his Ask thread.

Silver Crusade

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Thirding the love for the drow look and the regret that it gets lumped with evil.

Still hoping for a generally good-aligned black-skinned race somewhere.

Dark Archive

Tengus not enough for you Mikaze?

Silver Crusade

Those are generally neutral. Also, pink-skinned. ;)


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ulgulanoth wrote:
Tengus not enough for you Mikaze?
Mikaze wrote:
Those are generally neutral. Also, pink-skinned. ;)

I can honestly say I'd never considered tengus descended from flamingos until right now.

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