On a related note, a quick Google search for "Stop and Frisk" turned up one hell of a horrifying first hit. :(So you would have no problem with the cops showing up to your door to arrest you saying you match the description of a child molester based on nothing more than your race?sorry to hurt your feelings but truth is truth, if we are looking for a child molester odds are we are looking for a white guy. The sooner we grow up and start addressing why these trends exist instead of trying to ignore them the sooner we can do more to end it.Sorry Andrew, was working late tonight, I'll try to knock over a liquor store on the way home.Not to derail the thread, but given the discrepancy of race in US prison population, you wouldn't say CRT is relevant to the US Court system?if you discount the possibility of one group simply committing more offenses to end up in prison
cops tried that on me once already. It was an unpleasant experience for all involved.
Btw, and for the record:
Although Citizen Quest has called my bluff on the Latin, and a lot of these posts are flying over my head, I did pick up on what Citizens Guest and K(e)rensky said about some of the, um, epistemological?, cisstructuralist?, flaws in Critical Race theory and in the future will attempt to assess their arguments on their own merits.
I, of course, am critical of postmodernism because it is anti-Marxist.
Vive le Galt!
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It is the wrong way to go to give certain groups privileges. All it does is make people define themselves by group, multiply opportunities for dividing and conquering, and make those still outside the privilege circus even more outcast. Not to mention that privileges given can pretty easily be stripped away again when it is a minority that has them, should circumstances so require. We are humans, individuals, and all worth the same, even though we are strikingly different. The way there lies in limiting rubber paragraphs in the law, reducing the power of the state vs the individual, and not accepting special cases in the law for anyone. It isn't as sexy, but it is the only way that is going to work.
So how would that be applied to, say, the racist War on Drugs and America's burgeoning prison population, Madame Sissyl?
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Woops, sorry, Madame Sissyl, you're probably still back on page 1.
Well... so long as the cops can plant bags of coke in people's cars when they stop them, so long as the requirements for stopping people is "he looked suspicious", so long as the court system with plea bargains and various chicanery keeps going, and so on and so forth ad nauseam, people's tendency to discriminate WILL be visible in various unfortunate measurements, such as prison population percentages. What you need to do is tighten procedure, make recruitments anonymous, and remove opportunities for money to buy justice through various measures, such as sharply heightened transparency.
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Btw, and for the record:
Although Citizen Quest has called my bluff on the Latin, and a lot of these posts are flying over my head, I did pick up on what Citizens Guest and K(e)rensky said about some of the, um, epistemological?, cisstructuralist?, flaws in Critical Race theory and in the future will attempt to assess their arguments on their own merits.
I, of course, am critical of postmodernism because it is anti-Marxist.
Vive le Galt!
cispostcismodernism.
My point is it's not going to work without doing it my way. I am quite aware that it is most certainly not the way things are today.
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So you would have no problem with the cops showing up to your door to arrest you saying you match the description of a child molester based on nothing more than your race?sorry to hurt your feelings but truth is truth, if we are looking for a child molester odds are we are looking for a white guy. The sooner we grow up and start addressing why these trends exist instead of trying to ignore them the sooner we can do more to end it.Sorry Andrew, was working late tonight, I'll try to knock over a liquor store on the way home.Not to derail the thread, but given the discrepancy of race in US prison population, you wouldn't say CRT is relevant to the US Court system?if you discount the possibility of one group simply committing more offenses to end up in prison
except it is always more than just race
And i have had the police try to take my into custody because i closely resemble an escapee...
Of course none of that is what I said or what CRT says, from what little I know of it.But isn't that part of the point of Critical Race Theory? A policy doesn't have to be designed to designed by racists, for racist reasons or implemented by racists, in order to be racist.Yes. And it's why Critical Race Theory fails. Basically, if you assume that racism can be the primary cause behind everything despite having no causal efficacy whatsoever,...
Well, let me just say that few thinkers accept "Credo quia absurdum" or "Certum est, quia impossibile" any more. And that those particular beliefs have never been part of science or even secular scholarship, but only of theology.
Then I suggest you offer a better restatement of CRT that makes it not an exercise in tailchasing. I stand by my characterization..
I didn't want to get involved in this thread, but I think that it's important to post these:
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And i have had the police try to take my into custody because i closely resemble an escapee...
we told you the orange jump suit was a dead give a way.
Going off on sort of a side lead here: I assume you would agree that there was systematic racism in the US in the past?
The US is a very large place, and involves a lot of different subsystems. Some of those subsystems are still racist. Others are not, but carry a legacy of disparate racial impact, either from previous racism that has since been eliminated, or by working with other factors that are empirically correlated with race. Still others have a deliberately disparate race-based effect, but is not caused by racism, but by other factors.
Examples of all of the cases described in the previous paragraph have been cited in this thread; by myself as well as by others. It would be needless repetitive for me to list them again.
So, for fun, I went on a google hunt about John McWhorter, the war on drugs and the Congressional Black Caucus.
While [bubble bubble bubble] I might add.
Anyway, when I discovered that McWhorter was a Contributing Editor at The New Republic, I had the same reaction that Comrade Jeff does when someone posts something from the Cato Institute.
Oh, wait a minute.
(In case anyone is interested, the comrades at Black Agenda Report called him a "black reactionary.")
Anyway, in the McWhorter piece I posted above before he had much nicer (though still critical) things to say about Michelle Alexander's The New Jim Crow.
More google searching revealed this interesting timeline about "Black America's surprising 40-year support for the Drug War"
And, of course, I can't help but quote from my favorite commie rag in a review of Alexander's book:
"Alexander writes that some 'black activists' were 'wittingly or unwittingly…complicit in the emergence of a penal system unprecedented in world history.' With Sharpton and Jackson it was very wittingly, as they both spent years championing the 'war on drugs,' a fact that goes unmentioned in her book. As noted in Christian Parenti’s Lockdown America (1999), Jackson long ago called for the appointment of a 'drug czar' and more funding for local police, ranting that 'drug pushers are terrorists.' He got what he wanted, today bragging on his Web site that he advocated the drug war way before it 'became accepted public policy.' Sharpton, for his part, led 'community' vigilantes against reputed pushers in the 1980s. And both Jackson and Sharpton have for years fulminated against guns in the ghettos. Seizing guns and other means of self-defense is as much a driving force of the NYPD’s racist 'stop and frisk' policy as the 'drug war.'"
Back to Critical Race theory: Under critcisms or critiques or something, it cites an article by George Will linking CRT to the acquittal of O.J. Simpson and McWhorter echoes that in one of his books I read excerpts from on-line.
I thought O.J. was acquitted because Furhman was a racist and a liar and falsus in in uno, falsus in omnibus and all that? (More Latin) But, I admit, it's been a while.
Contributor
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This has been bugging me for a while. I am white. My daughter (who is 4) is a quarter black. All the white people she meets either pretend that she's white or avoid mentioning it. The black people notice it, and compliment her on her hair and so forth. With a few exceptions, black people tell me she is beautiful. White people are either oblivious or being post-racial. They look at me funny. My daughter is adopted, but that is unimportant. When I hear and see a kid refuse to play with my daughter because she's different, it's physically painful.
My sister is trans. Most people notice because she hasn't had the chance to transition and is in her 30s. Nobody tells her that she's beautiful. That's kinda sad. I wish she got to wear skirts when she was small, instead of androgynous clothes. That's what she does now. I want her to come out to SF or the Pacific NW so badly. We shouldn't have to be small to avoid attention.
I have a rainbow bracelet my daughter made for me me that I am afraid to wear because of the quasi-violent cr*p I got from some random parents at the playground. I live in fracking CA!
Everyone here reading this post is beautiful. Humanity is beautiful.
I may have to move to a less integrated town, the town where I had the run-in I mention above, soon and the prospect makes me very unhappy. But my ex has moved away and my daughter wants me there.
(Thank you for listening to my vent).
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This has been bugging me for a while. I am white. My daughter (who is 4) is a quarter black. All the white people she meets either pretend that she's white or avoid mentioning it. The black people notice it, and compliment her on her hair and so forth. With a few exceptions, black people tell me she is beautiful. White people are either oblivious or being post-racial. They look at me funny. My daughter is adopted, but that is unimportant. When I hear and see a kid refuse to play with my daughter because she's different, it's physically painful.
My sister is trans. Most people notice because she hasn't had the chance to transition and is in her 30s. Nobody tells her that she's beautiful. That's kinda sad. I wish she got to wear skirts when she was small, instead of androgynous clothes. That's what she does now. I want her to come out to SF or the Pacific NW so badly. We shouldn't have to be small to avoid attention.
I have a rainbow bracelet my daughter made for me me that I am afraid to wear because of the quasi-violent cr*p I got from some random parents at the playground. I live in fracking CA!
Everyone here reading this post is beautiful. Humanity is beautiful.
I may have to move to a less integrated town, the town where I had the run-in I mention above, soon and the prospect makes me very unhappy. But my ex has moved away and my daughter wants me there.
(Thank you for listening to my vent).
You're super rad, Jeff. Don't let anyone tell you any different.
This has been bugging me for a while. I am white. My daughter (who is 4) is a quarter black. All the white people she meets either pretend that she's white or avoid mentioning it. The black people notice it, and compliment her on her hair and so forth. With a few exceptions, black people tell me she is beautiful. White people are either oblivious or being post-racial. They look at me funny. My daughter is adopted, but that is unimportant. When I hear and see a kid refuse to play with my daughter because she's different, it's physically painful.
My sister is trans. Most people notice because she hasn't had the chance to transition and is in her 30s. Nobody tells her that she's beautiful. That's kinda sad. I wish she got to wear skirts when she was small, instead of androgynous clothes. That's what she does now. I want her to come out to SF or the Pacific NW so badly. We shouldn't have to be small to avoid attention.
I have a rainbow bracelet my daughter made for me me that I am afraid to wear because of the quasi-violent cr*p I got from some random parents at the playground. I live in fracking CA!
Everyone here reading this post is beautiful. Humanity is beautiful.
I may have to move to a less integrated town, the town where I had the run-in I mention above, soon and the prospect makes me very unhappy. But my ex has moved away and my daughter wants me there.
(Thank you for listening to my vent).
+1
I was once arrested for rape with the sole description being my hair color and the glasses I wore. Apparantly I wasn't that MUCH of a match as I was released in a half hour.So you would have no problem with the cops showing up to your door to arrest you saying you match the description of a child molester based on nothing more than your race?sorry to hurt your feelings but truth is truth, if we are looking for a child molester odds are we are looking for a white guy. The sooner we grow up and start addressing why these trends exist instead of trying to ignore them the sooner we can do more to end it.Sorry Andrew, was working late tonight, I'll try to knock over a liquor store on the way home.Not to derail the thread, but given the discrepancy of race in US prison population, you wouldn't say CRT is relevant to the US Court system?if you discount the possibility of one group simply committing more offenses to end up in prison
It feels really weird asking this, but it seems relevant: are you black or white (or other, please describe)?
My point is it's not going to work without doing it my way. I am quite aware that it is most certainly not the way things are today.So your argument is that we should take privileges away from those who have them now?
Without singling out as a group, of course.
Well, thejeff, thank you for your characterization of what I write. It is always nice to be well represented. My argument is that the privileges do not really help us reach where we want to. So, no, ignore them, just make sure every new step along the way is done differently. Eventually, the privileges will seem like what they are: Outdated legal patches that should never have been needed and serve only to discriminate between different groups.
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This has been bugging me for a while. I am white. My daughter (who is 4) is a quarter black. All the white people she meets either pretend that she's white or avoid mentioning it. The black people notice it, and compliment her on her hair and so forth. With a few exceptions, black people tell me she is beautiful. White people are either oblivious or being post-racial. They look at me funny. My daughter is adopted, but that is unimportant. When I hear and see a kid refuse to play with my daughter because she's different, it's physically painful.
My sister is trans. Most people notice because she hasn't had the chance to transition and is in her 30s. Nobody tells her that she's beautiful. That's kinda sad. I wish she got to wear skirts when she was small, instead of androgynous clothes. That's what she does now. I want her to come out to SF or the Pacific NW so badly. We shouldn't have to be small to avoid attention.
I have a rainbow bracelet my daughter made for me me that I am afraid to wear because of the quasi-violent cr*p I got from some random parents at the playground. I live in fracking CA!
Everyone here reading this post is beautiful. Humanity is beautiful.
I may have to move to a less integrated town, the town where I had the run-in I mention above, soon and the prospect makes me very unhappy. But my ex has moved away and my daughter wants me there.
(Thank you for listening to my vent).
I was unaware this thread was here (I need to visit this forum more often), so I did not see the ongoing arguments. And when I found it, I was preparing to argue elsewhere when I saw this post.
Suddenly, all of the arguing didn't matter. My priorities shifted, instantly.
The thing some people don't realize is why I fight so hard on the way people speak about each other. Why it is I view trashing the science to be such a problem and an easy way to only make the divides worse. Why it is I fight against the blame game. Your post illustrates it.
Basic, simple, everyday humanity.
You should not have to feel afraid of wearing that bracelet. Your daughter should have people commenting on her hair and telling her she's beautiful, no matter their race. Your sister should be able to dress the way she wants and be called beautiful. People should be free to be decent people to each other.
I hope you find people more understanding. I hope you find people who will be more accepting. I hope your sister finds a community that accepts her for who she is. And I hope your daughter finds true friends and lives a happy life.
I hope that, someday, the fighting people like me do improves lives for people like you.
Oh yeah. And Sartre Vs. Camus is like Wing Chun vs. MMA. No chance whatsoever.
I'm not really sure what Wing Chun or MMA are, but I suspect that they are bloodsports.
If so, I'd like to point out that when I came under fire after WWII for not having written more against the Nazis, dear Al (this, of course, was before our split over Communism) defended me, saying that I was a "resister who resisted, not a resister who wrote."
Hell is--other posters!
Vive le Galt!
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Well, thejeff, thank you for your characterization of what I write. It is always nice to be well represented. My argument is that the privileges do not really help us reach where we want to. So, no, ignore them, just make sure every new step along the way is done differently. Eventually, the privileges will seem like what they are: Outdated legal patches that should never have been needed and serve only to discriminate between different groups.My point is it's not going to work without doing it my way. I am quite aware that it is most certainly not the way things are today.So your argument is that we should take privileges away from those who have them now?
Without singling out as a group, of course.
If a race is currently privileged in some fashion, your advice is to do nothing? Just don't let it happen again in the future and hope that that privilege goes away on it's own?
Well, I wish you would have read what I wrote, Irontruth. Funny thing, I really did write what I thought should be done. And it is far from what I would call nothing.
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Well, I wish you would have read what I wrote, Irontruth. Funny thing, I really did write what I thought should be done. And it is far from what I would call nothing.
I did read what you wrote. Those questions are intended to highlight the flaws I see in your reasoning.
Do you honestly consider it a "privilege" when one group is being discriminated against and a law is made to stop that?
I understand the desire to live in an ideal world, but I think it more realistic to actually break problems down into solvable issues and work towards improvement, instead of just asking people to be nice to each other and hoping for the best.
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Well... A law was made that allowed affirmative action in recruiting to university. Since then, black students have been accepted with lower merits... but also, asian students have needed even higher merits to get in. On average. Is this good? Does it help get us to equality? Is this fair?
Problem is that every privilege has consequences. It doesn't solve the problem. Far better to slash all sorts of rubber paragraph there is, make the legal system far more predictable. That will leave far less room for racist implementation of the law.
I was once arrested for rape with the sole description being my hair color and the glasses I wore. Apparantly I wasn't that MUCH of a match as I was released in a half hour.So you would have no problem with the cops showing up to your door to arrest you saying you match the description of a child molester based on nothing more than your race?sorry to hurt your feelings but truth is truth, if we are looking for a child molester odds are we are looking for a white guy. The sooner we grow up and start addressing why these trends exist instead of trying to ignore them the sooner we can do more to end it.Sorry Andrew, was working late tonight, I'll try to knock over a liquor store on the way home.Not to derail the thread, but given the discrepancy of race in US prison population, you wouldn't say CRT is relevant to the US Court system?if you discount the possibility of one group simply committing more offenses to end up in prison
When I was young, I got to look at my father getting beat up and arrested by the cops because they thought he was a guy that hit up a liquor store that morning. Forget the fact that the perp was Phillipino, had long hair, and was clean shaven while my dad was Puerto Rican, had short hair, and a mustache that would make Juan Valdez jealous.
My dad still can't walk straight because of them.
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Well, I wish you would have read what I wrote, Irontruth. Funny thing, I really did write what I thought should be done. And it is far from what I would call nothing.I did read what you wrote. Those questions are intended to highlight the flaws I see in your reasoning.
Do you honestly consider it a "privilege" when one group is being discriminated against and a law is made to stop that?
I understand the desire to live in an ideal world, but I think it more realistic to actually break problems down into solvable issues and work towards improvement, instead of just asking people to be nice to each other and hoping for the best.
What do you consider to be solvable, and what are the actual solutions?
A lot of the problem I am seeing with breaking things down into solvable parts and then coming up with solutions is that, at the end of the day, the solutions inevitably end up making things worse instead of actually solving the problem.
Of course, that's because focusing on what is considered the solvable is often ignoring the real problem, which is societal, and trying to come up with short-term solutions to an issue that requires long-term efforts to actually fix. Which is why the issue of racial equality hasn't budged at any point in my lifetime.
It's not that I don't think the issues are solvable. It's that I suspect people are too focused on short-term solutions intended to solve a problem overnight. The only time solving the problem in what amounts to overnight ever came close to working, it involved genocide and the "problem" was "they are still alive."
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I was once arrested for rape with the sole description being my hair color and the glasses I wore. Apparantly I wasn't that MUCH of a match as I was released in a half hour.So you would have no problem with the cops showing up to your door to arrest you saying you match the description of a child molester based on nothing more than your race?sorry to hurt your feelings but truth is truth, if we are looking for a child molester odds are we are looking for a white guy. The sooner we grow up and start addressing why these trends exist instead of trying to ignore them the sooner we can do more to end it.Sorry Andrew, was working late tonight, I'll try to knock over a liquor store on the way home.Not to derail the thread, but given the discrepancy of race in US prison population, you wouldn't say CRT is relevant to the US Court system?if you discount the possibility of one group simply committing more offenses to end up in prisonWhen I was young, I got to look at my father getting beat up and arrested by the cops because they thought he was a guy that hit up a liquor store that morning. Forget the fact that the perp was Phillipino, had long hair, and was clean shaven while my dad was Puerto Rican, had short hair, and a mustache that would make Juan Valdez jealous.
My dad still can't walk straight because of them.
disgusting. I hope you and your dad got some justice. That turns my stomach.
I'll just sit here and wait for the other two, you, know, 'causeUGH!
wannabe
I'm confused...
Who am I beating?
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Well... A law was made that allowed affirmative action in recruiting to university. Since then, black students have been accepted with lower merits... but also, asian students have needed even higher merits to get in. On average. Is this good? Does it help get us to equality? Is this fair?
Problem is that every privilege has consequences. It doesn't solve the problem. Far better to slash all sorts of rubber paragraph there is, make the legal system far more predictable. That will leave far less room for racist implementation of the law.
Oh, I get it.
You just don't know what privilege means in this context.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, I wish you would have read what I wrote, Irontruth. Funny thing, I really did write what I thought should be done. And it is far from what I would call nothing.I did read what you wrote. Those questions are intended to highlight the flaws I see in your reasoning.
Do you honestly consider it a "privilege" when one group is being discriminated against and a law is made to stop that?
I understand the desire to live in an ideal world, but I think it more realistic to actually break problems down into solvable issues and work towards improvement, instead of just asking people to be nice to each other and hoping for the best.
What do you consider to be solvable, and what are the actual solutions?
A lot of the problem I am seeing with breaking things down into solvable parts and then coming up with solutions is that, at the end of the day, the solutions inevitably end up making things worse instead of actually solving the problem.
Of course, that's because focusing on what is considered the solvable is often ignoring the real problem, which is societal, and trying to come up with short-term solutions to an issue that requires long-term efforts to actually fix. Which is why the issue of racial equality hasn't budged at any point in my lifetime.
It's not that I don't think the issues are solvable. It's that I suspect people are too focused on short-term solutions intended to solve a problem overnight. The only time solving the problem in what amounts to overnight ever came close to working, it involved genocide and the "problem" was "they are still alive."
I agree. The problem is massive and complex. A lot of attempts have failed, or just shifted the problem. There is no magic bullet to solve racial/gender/religious/ethnic issues.
The problem from my perspective is that Sissyl's suggestion is an attempt at a magic bullet. We just treat everyone fairly and the problem solves itself. The problem is that this magic bullet solution relies on other magic bullets... like the idea that we can all even agree on what "fair" means.
I'm confused...
Who am I beating?
The important thing is to be good at beating.
Admittedly, if treating everyone fairly solved the problem, world peace would be established by kindergartners.
I agree Sissyl suggested a magic bullet. I can't argue it's not.
One thing I am finding myself asking, constantly, is what it is we can actually do that can be accomplished sometime this century. Because we're dealing with a problem that had its foundations laid around 2000 years ago, which finally burst onto the scene 400 years ago, which saw its first attempt to address it 200 years ago, and which had the last major attempt to address it 50 years ago.
At this point, even the children of those who were involved in the last attempt are growing old.
And yet, the more I look, the more entrenched the issues seem to be.
Well... A law was made that allowed affirmative action in recruiting to university. Since then, black students have been accepted with lower merits... but also, asian students have needed even higher merits to get in. On average. Is this good? Does it help get us to equality? Is this fair?
Problem is that every privilege has consequences. It doesn't solve the problem. Far better to slash all sorts of rubber paragraph there is, make the legal system far more predictable. That will leave far less room for racist implementation of the law.
Are you claiming that black students are adequately represented in universities?
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Are you claiming that black students are adequately represented in universities?Well... A law was made that allowed affirmative action in recruiting to university. Since then, black students have been accepted with lower merits... but also, asian students have needed even higher merits to get in. On average. Is this good? Does it help get us to equality? Is this fair?
Problem is that every privilege has consequences. It doesn't solve the problem. Far better to slash all sorts of rubber paragraph there is, make the legal system far more predictable. That will leave far less room for racist implementation of the law.
Are you claiming that they cannot earn it by getting good grades just like a white student? That a white student from bad urban schools deserves less help than the black or mexican student?
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Are you claiming that they cannot earn it by getting good grades just like a white student? That a white student from bad urban schools deserves less help than the black or mexican student?Are you claiming that black students are adequately represented in universities?Well... A law was made that allowed affirmative action in recruiting to university. Since then, black students have been accepted with lower merits... but also, asian students have needed even higher merits to get in. On average. Is this good? Does it help get us to equality? Is this fair?
Problem is that every privilege has consequences. It doesn't solve the problem. Far better to slash all sorts of rubber paragraph there is, make the legal system far more predictable. That will leave far less room for racist implementation of the law.
There's more to an individual than just their grades. There's also more to a university than just whether the admit one individual or not. Universities that better reflect our society as a whole are going to be better able to prepare students to function within that society.
That's part of the reason universities have programs to support students from poor families, because they're part of our society as well.
I'd also find your concern for poor white students more convincing if you actually showed concern for them in general, not just when it comes to issues of race. You're so quick to defend them in a thread like this, but you don't seem terribly concerned when we're talking about economics.
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Are you claiming that they cannot earn it by getting good grades just like a white student? That a white student from bad urban schools deserves less help than the black or mexican student?Are you claiming that black students are adequately represented in universities?Well... A law was made that allowed affirmative action in recruiting to university. Since then, black students have been accepted with lower merits... but also, asian students have needed even higher merits to get in. On average. Is this good? Does it help get us to equality? Is this fair?
Problem is that every privilege has consequences. It doesn't solve the problem. Far better to slash all sorts of rubber paragraph there is, make the legal system far more predictable. That will leave far less room for racist implementation of the law.
There's more to an individual than just their grades. There's also more to a university than just whether the admit one individual or not. Universities that better reflect our society as a whole are going to be better able to prepare students to function within that society.
That's part of the reason universities have programs to support students from poor families, because they're part of our society as well.
I'd also find your concern for poor white students more convincing if you actually showed concern for them in general, not just when it comes to issues of race.
I have equal concern for all people regardless of race, and that is that hard work should pay off and "but i deserve....." should not. There is more to an individual than grades, this is true. But you should get in simply because you are black is morally no better than you should be excluded for it.