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Aretas's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 695 posts. 1 review. 2 lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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Samnell wrote:
Aretas wrote:
You know I'm not racist sweety. The reason why I won't go out with you is because I'm straight, remember?
I'm positive you are a racist, dear. You practically scream it in half the threads you make here. When given the chance to exonerate yourself, the most you can do is handwaving. I'm sure that impresses your friends.

Take a look at Fergie for the answer to your previous questions about someone who believes American has done zero good in the middle east.

You really can't help yourself with the racist name calling.
Its offensive, you are lying, you get me?


The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Samnell wrote:
Aretas wrote:
You know I'm not racist sweety. The reason why I won't go out with you is because I'm straight, remember?
I'm positive you are a racist, dear. You practically scream it in half the threads you make here. When given the chance to exonerate yourself, the most you can do is handwaving. I'm sure that impresses your friends.
I am getting a racist and homophobe vibe from the A at worst, ignorant, self blinkering, bellend at best.

You know I was thinking the same about you! Then I thought bellend didn't suit you considering you don't have one to begin with.


Samnell wrote:
Aretas wrote:


Its all the same to you?

Yes, in fact, whether you own up to being a racist or come up with some kind of excuse is pretty much all the same to me.

Aretas wrote:


You see I do believe that the US has done some bad and good in the middle east and elsewhere around the world.

You could have fooled, well, everybody in multiple threads.

Aretas wrote:


We enjoy the position of Monday morning quarterback if you can understand my analogy.

You don't need the benefit of hindsight to see the kinds of terrible choices the US has made. Ousting Mossadegh, a popular and democratically elected candidate in favor of the Shah and his CIA-trained torturers isn't something that only turned out bad down the road. It was terrible to begin with.

Aretas wrote:


Considering that you and so many other here refuse to believe that the US has done ANY good is unfathonable.

Who in this thread believes that the US has never done any good? Find the quotes or admit you're just making stuff up.

Aretas wrote:


You and many here on the boards are just waiting with panting breaths to see what I would say only to lunge at an imaginary effigy of Uncle Sam and smash him around.

So now we imagined the CIA and MI6 overthrowing Mossadegh? Aretas, do you think that we're living inside a game of Mage: The Ascension and the rest of us just have so strong a belief in it that history rewrote itself to conform to our imaginations?

Aretas wrote:


You see when you engage someone else in a discussion there is a concept known as "good faith" and you are severly decifient of it.
I am familiar with the contradiction in terms that is the principle of good faith. I've even practiced it in the past. I've done so, in fact, in the course of attempting discussion with you. You have poorly rewarded everybody who I have seen make the attempt. I suspect that most of us spend enough time pouring water down gopher holes on the internet without...

You know I'm not racist sweety. The reason why I won't go out with you is because I'm straight, remember?


Samnell wrote:
Aretas wrote:


I think everything you just said is wrong.

Then give us a convincing explanation for your complete refusal to see relevance in inquiry into just how the US got so hated.

Or let the obvious inferences stand unchallenged. It's all the same to me.

Its all the same to you? You see I do believe that the US has done some bad and good in the middle east and elsewhere around the world. Just take a look at how bad Americans have suffered during the past 4 yrs under Pres. Obama! ;)

We enjoy the position of Monday morning quarterback if you can understand my analogy. Considering that you and so many other here refuse to believe that the US has done ANY good is unfathonable. You and many here on the boards are just waiting with panting breaths to see what I would say only to lunge at an imaginary effigy of Uncle Sam and smash him around.
You see when you engage someone else in a discussion there is a concept known as "good faith" and you are severly decifient of it.


LazarX wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:
I have no solutions to offer and I see this conflict continuing for 100 more years. Dan Carlin whose Hardcore History podcast I thoroughly reccomed says it best. The US has made the mistake of thinking that diplomacy is for wimps..... The Mongols, Vikings and other arsonists of history used it as effectively as any weapon in their arsenals.
The Vikings negotiated trade with Byzantium. And as a result of the process, founded Russia mostly by accident.

I did not know that. I would have thought they would have contacted them by way of the Baltic region.


Fergie wrote:

"Every American whether citizen or illegal enjoys a safe existence in the USA. Period! "

- Aretas

If I needed any final proof that Aretas was just trolling, well, that was it.

I don't think there is really a place on Earth where every person enjoys a "safe" existence. Anyone who has even a basic understanding of current events, history, and especially US history knows that religion, race, and class have caused violence and injustice with no end in sight.

As much as I'd like to enjoy a good laugh if Aretas ever lists the "good" things the US has done in the middle east, I think I'll be putting Aretas threads in the ignore category from now on.

EDIT:
I should also take a moment to say Kudos to the Paizo community for turning what by all measures should have been a total trainwreck of a thread into what was at many times a very insightful and informative discussion of history and politics. I want to say thanks to those who kept the information coming against all odds, and the moderators who keep it on track.

You dont want to understand that that quote you are so proud of posting is in response to a man in black linking terrible incidents in the US. He then associates those incidents as an indicator on how the US is unwelcoming and violent to its arab or muslim citizens.

I'm glad I wont be hearing from you again since you have nothing to contribute aside from "Aaaaaameeericaaaaaa.....baaaaaad"


Samnell wrote:
Aretas wrote:

To Paul: You have a negative world view of the US and or US foreign policy. Thats your problem. If you wanna have a bash American foreign policy party great. I'm not sure how that ties into analysis of the current violence in the middle east, the killing of Christopher Stevens and the destruction of the Benghazi embassy.

Do you believe that America had it coming or deserved it for being the great satan?

I think this is worth highlighting. Aretas is aware that people have negative opinions about the US and its foreign policy, but the sole explanation he offers for this is some defect in the people. He rules out, a priori, that it's even possible to have a legitimate gripe against the US.

Then he tells us that this has nothing to do with anti-American violence in the US. Because it's not like anti-American violence might somehow arise from having a negative opinion of the US. I guess Middle Easterners are just a savage horde to him, like a force of nature. Or orcs.

It's like he picked up Said's Orientalism and used it as a training manual. But that's probably too highbrow. I'll guess he's getting this from Andrew Macdonald.

I think everything you just said is wrong.


Freehold DM wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Aretas wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Those articles are a joke. Every American whether citizen or illegal enjoys a safe existence in the USA. Period!

Aretas, meet Aretas.

Aretas wrote:

Well said. I live in Chicago and its been a bloody summer. We, the citizens of Crook county feel like the thugs and gang bangers have the guns while We The People are the lambs.

I hope IL allows conceal and carry ASAP.

How do you compare the articles you posted with blacks killing other blacks?

Sounds like a socialogical problem for the black community to solve. Wanna go at it again? Start a thread.
So...black people aren't American or must solve their problems away from the eyes of other people who live in this country? That's just stupid.
Did you read the link AMIB provided? He was trying to compare the articles he linked up to the thread regarding violence in the black community. Saying that people are not safe in the US, just look at the violence in the black community. Get a clue.
Get a clue? YOU were the one who said "EVERY American, whether citizen or illegal enjoys a safe existence in the USA. Period!"

Yeah everyone enjoys a safe existence in the US. Implying that we have ethnic / religious strife from what man in black linked up is clueless.

How you twist that into "black people aren't American..." I have no idea. You can't be serious, your just trying to get my goat.


Urizen wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Aretas wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Those articles are a joke. Every American whether citizen or illegal enjoys a safe existence in the USA. Period!

Aretas, meet Aretas.

Aretas wrote:

Well said. I live in Chicago and its been a bloody summer. We, the citizens of Crook county feel like the thugs and gang bangers have the guns while We The People are the lambs.

I hope IL allows conceal and carry ASAP.

How do you compare the articles you posted with blacks killing other blacks?

Sounds like a socialogical problem for the black community to solve. Wanna go at it again? Start a thread.
So...black people aren't American or must solve their problems away from the eyes of other people who live in this country? That's just stupid.

And Aretas wonders why people point him out for comments on veiled racism? That list of postings are growing larger than his list of great things the US has done in the Middle East that Paul is waiting for.

I don't think Paul is going to hold his breath in anticipation though. :)

I believe you are not paying attention to what A man in black was linking up. Look at the ther post I wrote to Freehold DM.

To Paul: You have a negative world view of the US and or US foreign policy. Thats your problem. If you wanna have a bash American foreign policy party great. I'm not sure how that ties into analysis of the current violence in the middle east, the killing of Christopher Stevens and the destruction of the Benghazi embassy.
Do you believe that America had it coming or deserved it for being the great satan?


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

I must once again protest!

Every time this thread is getting good (that is, exposing the crimes of US imperialism), we have to stop and talk about Citizen Aretas!

We should just start a "Kick Citizen Aretas" thread and get it over with.

Why don't you point your little goblin finger at A man in black?


Freehold DM wrote:
Aretas wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Those articles are a joke. Every American whether citizen or illegal enjoys a safe existence in the USA. Period!

Aretas, meet Aretas.

Aretas wrote:

Well said. I live in Chicago and its been a bloody summer. We, the citizens of Crook county feel like the thugs and gang bangers have the guns while We The People are the lambs.

I hope IL allows conceal and carry ASAP.

How do you compare the articles you posted with blacks killing other blacks?

Sounds like a socialogical problem for the black community to solve. Wanna go at it again? Start a thread.
So...black people aren't American or must solve their problems away from the eyes of other people who live in this country? That's just stupid.

Did you read the link AMIB provided? He was trying to compare the articles he linked up to the thread regarding violence in the black community. Saying that people are not safe in the US, just look at the violence in the black community. Get a clue.


A Man In Black wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Those articles are a joke. Every American whether citizen or illegal enjoys a safe existence in the USA. Period!

Aretas, meet Aretas.

Aretas wrote:

Well said. I live in Chicago and its been a bloody summer. We, the citizens of Crook county feel like the thugs and gang bangers have the guns while We The People are the lambs.

I hope IL allows conceal and carry ASAP.

How do you compare the articles you posted with blacks killing other blacks?

Sounds like a socialogical problem for the black community to solve. Wanna go at it again? Start a thread.


Kryzbyn wrote:
You can't listen to savage anymore. he's been suing for the last 2 years to get out of his contract. He won, and is no longer on the air.

I'll keep an eye out and see where he lands.


A Man In Black wrote:
Aretas wrote:
First Savage is not a piece of s#%~. Perhaps we differ in opinion.

Fine. He's a racist snake oil salesman whose career is built on stirring up xenophobic hate. You can have whatever opinion you want of that, but remember that it reflects on you.

Quote:
The fact is Americans are not burning flags, ransacking Arab embassies or attacking people of Arab or Muslim background. I'm still on the side of diplomacy and mutual coexistence. It does not look like the Arab world and many of its leaders are playing this game fairly.

Are you sure about that?

Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Well, what about them?
Remember how this thread ended up started because Aretas got a Michael Savage mailing list e-mail? He also apparently subscribes to Stratfor's free feeds. Stratfor is reporting that US and French aircraft were bound for an airbase in Greece, and another group of aircraft were bound for Spain, with no indication for their final destination thereafter.

HAHAHA! Yeah! Savage is awesome. I'll listen to him religiously now that you dislike him so much. I'm sure if you hate him that much he must be right.

Those articles are a joke. Every American whether citizen or illegal enjoys a safe existence in the USA. Period!

As a matter of fact I do know about Stratfor but I got the news about the military deployements from speakng to my contacts in Greece.


I'll answer Anklebiter in a few but lets get back to Middle Eastern analysis. Lets take a look at US and French military troop deployements and movements in the past few days.


ForeverADM wrote:

can you trip, sunder, drag, grapple or such with an attack of opportunity?

It is an attack, and has full BAB?

Oh yeah! As long as its an "Attack" not a standard action.

I love using this when the AC 30 PC's says "yeah sure I'll take the A.O., like there going to hit!" Then I say "Ok, so whats your CMB vs Trip?" muhahahaha!


thejeff wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:

Aretas,

You know history but think the US deposed the Shah? I don't claim to know history at all and even I know that's b+#$!#+@. If you can't even get really basic facts like that right, why should anyone take you even slightly seriously?

Also, taking responsibility for their mistakes? Yeah, it would be nice if the West did that occasionally, rather than acting outraged that anyone should call them on their support for murderous dictators. That was a decision. It was, from a geopolitical point of view at the time, a very sensible decision. However, if you were the one living in fear of getting killed for nothing, well, hating the people propping up your particular brand of madman is hardly an unreasonable position. America, to use your own words, needs to accept the responsibility for its own actions.

Oh, and please don't put words in my mouth so you can strawman them to death. It's not a very good way of influencing people. They tend to notice. Diplomacy is going to be pretty tough owing to the justified hatred you've bult up against you. That's the consequence of your actions. Accept responsibility for it and stop blaming the people you helped oppress for decades for getting pissed at you now that they're free.

Oh, and could you perhaps mention all the great things America has done in the region? You can't just assert these marvellous and wonderful things without evidence. I, at least, gave you examples of the s&%+ty things the US has done. Your turn.

WOW man you need to kick your history teacher in the nuts!!! No need to apologize to me, just learn and go forward please. If we cannot agree on this I don't see us talking about any of the other points you asked me to answer. Useless.

Iranian History in the 20th century 101

Yeah, the US "ousted" the Shah. By telling him, while the revolution was in full swing, that we wouldn't support him any longer.

Just like we "ousted"...

Yes I agree. What I dont agree with is the assertion that the revolution was in full swing or the writting was on the wall.

Perhaps for the muslim fundamentalists it always was. From what I read/heard there was civil unrest ofcourse but it
was not a mass revolutionary movement.

The parallels to Egypt are so striking btw.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Aretas wrote:


2. Michael Savage is not a right winger. Goes to show how much you know about him. He is and independent conservative. Stop regurgitating bullsh*t. To you anyone with a conservative opinion is a right wing nut job.
I'm pretty sure that an independent conservative is considered a right-winger, Citizen Aretas.

I'm still in the camp that says there is a difference.


Paul Watson wrote:

Aretas,

You know history but think the US deposed the Shah? I don't claim to know history at all and even I know that's b+#$!#+@. If you can't even get really basic facts like that right, why should anyone take you even slightly seriously?

Also, taking responsibility for their mistakes? Yeah, it would be nice if the West did that occasionally, rather than acting outraged that anyone should call them on their support for murderous dictators. That was a decision. It was, from a geopolitical point of view at the time, a very sensible decision. However, if you were the one living in fear of getting killed for nothing, well, hating the people propping up your particular brand of madman is hardly an unreasonable position. America, to use your own words, needs to accept the responsibility for its own actions.

Oh, and please don't put words in my mouth so you can strawman them to death. It's not a very good way of influencing people. They tend to notice. Diplomacy is going to be pretty tough owing to the justified hatred you've bult up against you. That's the consequence of your actions. Accept responsibility for it and stop blaming the people you helped oppress for decades for getting pissed at you now that they're free.

Oh, and could you perhaps mention all the great things America has done in the region? You can't just assert these marvellous and wonderful things without evidence. I, at least, gave you examples of the s&%+ty things the US has done. Your turn.

WOW man you need to kick your history teacher in the nuts!!! No need to apologize to me, just learn and go forward please. If we cannot agree on this I don't see us talking about any of the other points you asked me to answer. Useless.

Iranian History in the 20th century 101


The 8th Dwarf wrote:

Areatasses skill in backpedaling would get him a job in a circus.

You insulted a man who died in service to his country.

You regurgitate the vapid rantings of a right wing nut job.

You make generalizations that border on racist.

You can not see the mistakes of your own country the contributed to the radicalization of segments of the Islamic world.

You demonstrate your ignorance over and over.

Your a hateful little wee Dwarf! I like the "asses" you added to my handle, very clever. If that was me you would be crying to the moderators.

If you got beef with me on a topic go for it, quit the insults.

1. I did not say anything to insult Christopher Stevens. I am insulted that security was sh*t, his concerns for his safety were not taken seriously, and still nothing has been done to avenge his murder.

2. Michael Savage is not a right winger. Goes to show how much you know about him. He is and independent conservative. Stop regurgitating bullsh*t. To you anyone with a conservative opinion is a right wing nut job.

3. Racism again? You are demonstrating ignorance for failing to see that there is no racism here.

4. Radicalization? BIG topic. Im sure we radicalized many with US presence in Holy Saudi Arabia but we left and radicals found other excuses to hate the US. Anyway, BIG topic. Start a thread.


Paul Watson wrote:

Aretas,

No, America is just propping Up ruthless, oppressive dictators like the Saudis wile hypocritically condemning equally ruthless dictators like President Assad. You do remember that the US supported Khaddaffi for a bit in the 2000s, don't you? And spported Saddam before that to halt Iran, who we also created by supporting the ruthles dictatorship of the Shah. America has quite a history in the region of supporting bloody dictators and suppressing democracy. So when the dictator goes, the people Amica helped oppress are, for some reason, not terribly grateful for your support of the former ruthless dictator. Many in the Middle East may well hate America. The thing is, America has not been shy about giving them reasons to.

Regarding iran. he probably figured that America supporting the protestors would play into the regme's narrtive of the protestors being stooges for the Great Satan. But that sort of subtlety and nuance has no place in foreign plicy where shaking your big stick and shouting is far more effective, right?

Riiiight, so what your saying is diplomacy is useless b/c the arab/muslim world (or atleast in the nations we meddled in as you said) hate us?

I know history, I also know that people have to learn to get along and take responsibility for their actions. Blaming American is getting old. You fail to mention all the great things America & American's do in the arab/muslim world, but this sort of talk does not fit into your narrative.
You would rather talk about how we supported Khaddafi or Hussein. How we instilled the Shah in Iran. Then we deposed him b/c he was so bad not thinking (Under Pres Carter) how this would effect the region. Guess what, the Persian people are now under the thumb of the Theocrats and I'm sure they are loving it.
Why don't you add to this hot mess how Israel sold weapons to Iran during the Iran/Iraq war? Little Satan selling weapons to Iran??!!
Its called realpolitic. But keep blaming America, it feels better.


Smarnil le couard wrote:

Emphasis mine. Here is your OP :

Aretas wrote:

This came across my desk today, it seems pretty right on in my opinion. What do you all think?

"The fact is, there are millions if not hundreds of millions of people in the Arab world who share the vision of Osama Bin Laden.

No matter how many times you apologize to them, no matter how many idiotic diplomats you send over there who think they're so wonderful because they went to Berkeley, one thing is clear: They only understand power, and they see that you're weak."

A German daily paper writes today:

"Three years after Obama's speech in Cairo which was supposed to initiate a new beginning in the Middle East, the United States now has even less support in the region than before.

"Naked hatred is raging against the country that millions of people regard as a symbol of freedom.

"When U.S. flags burn, embassies are vandalized and diplomats are murdered, it is an attack on the West and not just America.

"We rooted for the demonstrators at Tahrir Square, and many of us have longed to see democracy in the Arab nations. But democracy includes honoring the lives of fellow humans."

But we know those people can't honor the lives of fellow humans, especially infidels.

They used Obama. They used Hillary. They used the ambassador to get where they are. NB: 'they' being the libyans, as he (Savage) is speaking about the embassy attack.

And then they killed him."

So, you agree with that piece of s*** stating that there is no way diplomacy could work with the barbarians living in arab countries, but at the same time do not. Make up your mind, please?

First Savage is not a piece of s$!%. Perhaps we differ in opinion. A terrorist to me might be a freedom fighter to you?

Second. The newspaper article was thought provoking. I lean towards the opinion that Obama and the administration bent over backward to appease the Muslim world. What did that get the US? It got us the mess in Egypt, Libya, and elsewhere in the Arab & Muslim world. Where was Obama when the Iranians protested? Did he say the Mullahs had to go? NO he didn't.
Third. How you characterize Arabs as barbarian? Thats your opinion man
The fact is Americans are not burning flags, ransacking Arab embassies or attacking people of Arab or Muslim background. I'm still on the side of diplomacy and mutual coexistence. It does not look like the Arab world and many of its leaders are playing this game fairly.


Smarnil le couard wrote:
Aretas wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:
Aretas wrote:
If the Libyan 'government' knows that it was foreigners who attacked the embassy on 9/11 them how come they don't know who or where they are located?
I figured it out. You put scare quotes around government because you're referring to the Libyan government that exists only in your fevered imagination.

You figured it out? "My fevered mind?" You are so far off and clueless.

Foreigners

So? You are moving post goals all the time. [Edit : okay, goalposts.]

First, you said libyans (ALL libyans) hated the USA, quoting in extenso a Savage piece of work.

Second, everybody and their cousins told you that the guys who planned and led the attack on your embassy weren't representative of the whole libyan population, who is mostly composed of, you know, normal people like you and me.

Then, out of the blue, you add than the attack involved foreigners. I humbly pointed out than nobody on this thread said that before you, and that it doesn't matter.

Could you explain to us how the involvement of foreigners in this attack helps your OP argument, that is, that most of the libyans are odious and irredeemable djihadis rooting for Al Qaeda, and therefore not worthy of your help ? Is it too much to ask for some coherence in your rants ?

I did not say OR post a quote stating that "ALL LIBYANS" hate the USA. The OP post did not say any of the terrible things you just wrote!

"that is, that most of the libyans are odious and irredeemable djihadis rooting for Al Qaeda, and therefore not worthy of your help ? Is it too much to ask for some coherence in your rants ?"

Just the ones that used the US & then sacked the embassy & killed our diplomat, an act of war. Lets not forget the Muslim brotherhood either.


A Man In Black wrote:
Aretas wrote:
If the Libyan 'government' knows that it was foreigners who attacked the embassy on 9/11 them how come they don't know who or where they are located?
I figured it out. You put scare quotes around government because you're referring to the Libyan government that exists only in your fevered imagination.

You figured it out? "My fevered mind?" You are so far off and clueless.

Foreigners


If the Libyan 'government' knows that it was foreigners who attacked the embassy on 9/11 them how come they don't know who or where they are located?
Arrests should have been made by now and some heads rattled.

Maybe it was the same freedom fighters who NATO backed to take over Khaddafi and we (the US) really wants to keep this quiet, especially since we are months away from an election. So much for that Arab spring.

I really don't know what Smarnil is implying, it was not Savage...who is the MAN btw nor was it me.


The 8th Dwarf wrote:

I majored in The Classics an Ancient History and Minored in Paleoanthropology and Archaeology (with credits in going to parties and getting drunk alot), I work in IT for a big bad Bank.

What learned from my education is that there is no "how it is" history is always POV. If you accept anything you read at face value then you fail history.

Same with the articles you post, they are biased and not accurate. Go with Cicero when you are debating he says attack your own argument find the holes before you even engage your opposition.

All you are doing is posting articles from sources with 0 credibility and expecting us to agree. No history student should, the first thing you are taught is to question the source, and that the Primary source is more valuable than the secondary source.

I didn't expect anyone to agree, nor did I look to pick a fight.

I think the article has merit and credibility.
It was short, to the point and gave an opinion.
Don't look for Herodotus when there is only graffiti on the wall-post.


GeraintElberion wrote:
Aretas wrote:

300 years of exploitation, repression with millions dead eh? Can you tell me how the west is directly responsible? If you go back to 1712 A.D. the region was under the thumb of the Ottoman Turks not the West. It was not until the 19th century that Europe got involved in the region.

To put it broadly various rulers wanted to modernized and adopt western aspects. They were happy to get rid of the Turks by welcoming European money & guns to do it.
I only have a university education on the topic so how did you come to your conclusions? What are your sources?

You have a degree in European and/or Middle-Eastern history, with an emphasis upon the 20th century?

Forgive my scepticism but you don't post with obvious scholarship so I am a little surprised. Please, do fill us all in?

Cheers to the mild suprise.

I'll say aside from my major I minored in History just b/c I enjoyed it so much.
Sometimes you have to say it how it is. That could be a little uncomfortable for some to hear and comprehend.


The 8th Dwarf wrote:

17th Century on European nations carve up the world and start colonising and exploiting the locals.

Where the west cant colonise or control directly it props up the governments that tortures and murders its own citizens in return for what will benefit the money making classes.

See the Opium wars as a shining example of the British as a nation dealing drugs and forcing countries to take them... (The US was in on it, just not to the scale of the world superpower that the British Empire was). You have to wait until Vietnam before your government corners the Heroin trade.

The only thing that has changed since the 17thC is which of the Western nations is predominant in supporting the tyrants.

The only thing that those oppressive governments hesitated to mess with is religion. As that can turn a whole country against you.

Smart Tyrants use funnel the hate - they allow religious unrest as long as it is aimed at the Western tyrants supporting them.... So they can say look we have religious nutters that want to attack you we need more guns to kill them, so the west gives them more guns they use them to oppress them just enough to get more money from the west to get more power and weapons.

When the religious nutters overthrow the tyrants are they going to say thank you to the west. No they are going to send a message - We have had enough of you backing those that have tortured us, we have had enough of you disrespecting us and we hate you for being responsible for 300 years of colonialism, exploitation and repression and for the millions of our people died sou you could live like kings while our children starved in the streets.

So no after overthrowing the dictatorships and giving democracy a try the people are not want to be friends just because you are a democracy as well.

300 years of exploitation, repression with millions dead eh? Can you tell me how the west is directly responsible? If you go back to 1712 A.D. the region was under the thumb of the Ottoman Turks not the West. It was not until the 19th century that Europe got involved in the region.

To put it broadly various rulers wanted to modernized and adopt western aspects. They were happy to get rid of the Turks by welcoming European money & guns to do it.
I only have a university education on the topic so how did you come to your conclusions? What are your sources?


Mursi's Rev. Wright?
I'm posting this b/c there are two conversations taking place. One in Arabic and the other in English.
I'm interested in hearing what you have to say about this video and the million supporters in the crowd.
Also, if this is not just Mursi's "crazy uncle" how should the U.S. and the West adjust their foreign policy in the region.


meatrace wrote:
Aretas wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:

Something to keep in mind: more Muslims live in each of India and Indonesia than the entirety of the Middle East, and both of those countries are moderate, religiously tolerant democracies. When people talk about Muslims and just mean the Middle East (and aren't talking about Iran), they probably mean Arabs, not Muslims.

Of course, the problem with that is that if you replace Muslim/religion with Arab when you post silly things like Aretas (and others) have been posting, you come off sounding like a racist.

I find it offensive that you keep calling me a racist, cease your baseless slanders.

LULZ

1)He didn't say you were racist, he said you come off sounding racist. Big difference.
2)It's not baseless.

LULZ,

Yes baseless.

So instead of calling me a racist, you say you come off sounding like a racist. I'm not looking for an apology from him considering some of the silly things he has posted comes off sounding like a racist. His handle is a man in black after all.

I see how quick everyone is to discredit the magazine article as shameful but I really don't see many here contributing to the topic aside from making me the focus of it.


A Man In Black wrote:

Something to keep in mind: more Muslims live in each of India and Indonesia than the entirety of the Middle East, and both of those countries are moderate, religiously tolerant democracies. When people talk about Muslims and just mean the Middle East (and aren't talking about Iran), they probably mean Arabs, not Muslims.

Of course, the problem with that is that if you replace Muslim/religion with Arab when you post silly things like Aretas (and others) have been posting, you come off sounding like a racist.

I find it offensive that you keep calling me a racist, cease your baseless slanders.


The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Aretas wrote:

tyrannical regimes in Egypt & Libya including Iraq and Afghanistan.

Iran, Syria & Saudi Arabia come to mind.

The UK, US, Russia an France are responsible of setting up and sustaining those tyrannical governments... Read some history mate.

If you play with snakes don't go running home to "mommy" when one bites you.

I'm aware of the history of the region. After the fall of the Ottoman empire we all know that the other "powers" had a say in the regions future.

My post was not going to delve that far into history, only the past 40 or so years mate.


boldstar wrote:
Aretas wrote:

This came across my desk today, it seems pretty right on in my opinion. What do you all think?

"The fact is, there are millions if not hundreds of millions of people in the Arab world who share the vision of Osama Bin Laden.

No matter how many times you apologize to them, no matter how many idiotic diplomats you send over there who think they're so wonderful because they went to Berkeley, one thing is clear: They only understand power, and they see that you're weak."

A German daily paper writes today:

"Three years after Obama's speech in Cairo which was supposed to initiate a new beginning in the Middle East, the United States now has even less support in the region than before.

"Naked hatred is raging against the country that millions of people regard as a symbol of freedom.

"When U.S. flags burn, embassies are vandalized and diplomats are murdered, it is an attack on the West and not just America.

"We rooted for the demonstrators at Tahrir Square, and many of us have longed to see democracy in the Arab nations. But democracy includes honoring the lives of fellow humans."

But we know those people can't honor the lives of fellow humans, especially infidels.

They used Obama. They used Hillary. They used the ambassador to get where they are.

And then they killed him."

Came across the "Savage Nation" last night. He stated that the founding fathers created the electoral college because they could foresee a time in which masses of illegal immigrants pouring over the border would take over the government by casting illegal votes. He also stated that liberals = socialists = atheists = evil. Do these sound like the words of a person that anyone would want to quote as being relevant to a civil discourse that actually, constructively is trying to help this country? Wish I had a link, but I am sure the transcript is out on the net somewhere.

Also Aretas, I have to say that I haven't had the same experience that some have stated as to your posts. I...

I'm fairly certain I posted a article from that German magazine not Michael Savage.

He gives his opinions. Since I do not know the context of the remark I don't know how to comment on it.

100's post, Huzzah!


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Aretas wrote:


I'm not sure why "they" hate precisely. I can speculate. Is it Democracy vs Sharia law?

You realize those aren't opposites right? If 51% of the population wants law based on the Qu'ran then Quranic law is a democratic decision.

The concept you're thinking of is a government that recognizes inaliable rights of the indivdual: which is not something we've always been so good at ourselves.

Quote:
Is it that they see our culture and are trying to repel it. Do they hate us for supporting guys like Saddam, Khaddafi, Mubarek, the Shah in the 70's? Do they hate us b/c we depose who we want, when we want?

All of the above. Also the write in answer that their lives suck and their politicians get them to vent their rage against people who aren't at fault for their lot in life in order to take the heat off themselves. Its a technique you should be familiar with as its what politicians here do: don't get mad at the corporations getting billions in payouts and tax cuts, get mad at someone getting 200 dollars a month in welfare!

I used "Democracy" to imply constitutional government, a republic, people have inalienable rights, all that good stuff.

ONLY getting $200 a month! That guy is getting screwed! ;)

Yes there is dissatisfaction in corporate bailouts/tax breaks but atleast they contribute something to the state and federal treasury and at the same time angst vs people who really "work" the system.
It should not be a Rep/Dem talking point.


Elbe-el wrote:

How does all of that relate to this topic? Simple...it's extremely important to remember that the current unrest in the Islamic world is not happening in a vacuum. If this "movie trailer" were an isolated incident, then people would be right to call the violence "senseless".

...but it isn't. The people of the Islamic world have the perception that the West believes that Islam, and the people who practice it, are a mistake that has no right to exist on Planet Earth. Rightly or wrongly, many of the genuinely believe that they are fighting not just for their religion or sovereignty, but for their very right to exist.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on what you said about the Islamic world having the perception that the West believes they do not have a right to exist. First the West has welcomed millions or Arabs into their countries, while respecting their right to worship. The West has being involved in nation building in Bosnia & Kosovo to help Muslims, along with liberating millions from tyrannical regimes in Egypt & Libya including Iraq and Afghanistan.

The groups that are active in destroying the infrastructure and human resources of many Arab and Muslim countries are not the Western powers but various Islamic extremist groups. They seek to destabilize and intimidate the population into not cooperating with the international community.

When a suicide bomber attacks a public works recruitment office or a outdoor market they seek to terrorize the populous and are working for their own ends, for their puppet masters. Iran, Syria & Saudi Arabia come to mind.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Smarnil le couard wrote:

background of decades of anti-arab and pro-Israel US foreign policies.

30th anniversary of the massacre at Sabra and Shatila going on now.

Click here to see what the Christians and the Jews can still get up to when they put their minds to it.

Nothing offensive with this line, only if you are preaching to the choir.


T_Malthus wrote:

Hi.

This is my first post here on the boards and I probably should have picked a less volatile thread but Aretas can you clarify what exactly is your opinion on the matter.
Distilling your original post I see a lot of rhetoric but little substance.

The first sentence seems to imply that the violence exist because "millions or hundreds of millions of people" simply hate the US." Which doesn't really give much of a reason. Why do they hate?

Your second sentence seems to imply that diplomacy will not work and that the brave American diplomats that died were some how idiots for trying to bring peace to people "who only understand power". Now I know this is not your stance on the issue as it was you that started the Thread on this page honoring their sacrifice.

Please clarify. I think that they "rhetoric" that you choose to post is getting in the way of people understand what exactly you mean.

-TM

I'm not sure why "they" hate precisely. I can speculate. Is it Democracy vs Sharia law? Is it that they see our culture and are trying to repel it. Do they hate us for supporting guys like Saddam, Khaddafi, Mubarek, the Shah in the 70's? Do they hate us b/c we depose who we want, when we want? I read that Carter was very idealistic and wanted to end the brutal regime of the Shah. Well that only ushered in Khomenei in the power vaccuum that ensued, along with an islamic theocracy.


Gary Teter wrote:
Aretas wrote:
I can't imagine how you beat out 1 million sperm
That is pretty much the working definition of "personal insult." Aretas, we've asked you before to maybe consider stepping back from the political threads if you can't participate without using insults and name-calling. Please rethink your participation here.

Your right, that was in insult. I'm better than that.

I also see that a blind eye is turned to Meatrace who called my post:

"absolutely heinous, usually coming close to quoting some of the most vile hate groups that are active, or utter lunatics like in this thread."


meatrace wrote:

There's a formula to these threads.

1)Aretas says something absolutely heinous, usually coming close to quoting some of the most vile hate groups that are active, or utter lunatics like in this thread.
2)People politely (as possible) point out that his views are clearly based on hate, bigotry, and eschew reason for violence as the solution.
3)Aretas name calls people who point out that his views are absolutely despicable as, themselves, horrible people.
4)Thread gets locked.

*taps toe*

Nothing about the post is vile and heinous. If you believe that I can't imagine how you beat out 1 million sperm.

I'm not going to feed the posters that are a distraction to the topic.


A Man In Black wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Again what are your thoughts on the topic?
I think you shouldn't credit comments on the Middle East from someone who calls Muslims "non-people". The rest of my thoughts on the Middle East are in the other thread we already have on the subject.

When did Savage call all muslims "non-people" He was talking about the head cutters, genital mutilaters, the islamo nazis. Taking him out of context is vile.


boldstar wrote:
Savage makes Limbaugh seem fair-minded and civil. He makes Beck look sane. Aretas, you do not do your argument any favors by quoting him.

I think Savage is the man.

I'm not trying to gain favor here. Savage is not the topic, its the most recent violence in the arab & muslim world. Again what are your thoughts on the topic?


When I look past the put downs of your replies all I hear is that the violence is b/c of the youtube video? Ok, thanks for the opinions.


This came across my desk today, it seems pretty right on in my opinion. What do you all think?

"The fact is, there are millions if not hundreds of millions of people in the Arab world who share the vision of Osama Bin Laden.

No matter how many times you apologize to them, no matter how many idiotic diplomats you send over there who think they're so wonderful because they went to Berkeley, one thing is clear: They only understand power, and they see that you're weak."

A German daily paper writes today:

"Three years after Obama's speech in Cairo which was supposed to initiate a new beginning in the Middle East, the United States now has even less support in the region than before.

"Naked hatred is raging against the country that millions of people regard as a symbol of freedom.

"When U.S. flags burn, embassies are vandalized and diplomats are murdered, it is an attack on the West and not just America.

"We rooted for the demonstrators at Tahrir Square, and many of us have longed to see democracy in the Arab nations. But democracy includes honoring the lives of fellow humans."

But we know those people can't honor the lives of fellow humans, especially infidels.

They used Obama. They used Hillary. They used the ambassador to get where they are.

And then they killed him."


2 people marked this as a favorite.

R.I.P.


Thumbs DOWN to this post.

Thumbs UP to Marthian's reply.


yellowdingo wrote:

Apparently thanks to the Quake that caused the Tidal Wave, Japan is now in trouble. MT Fuji sits on a Magma chamber 15 Km below the surface which would on reaching 0.1 megapascals cause an eruption. That Magma chamber is now at 1.6 megapascals so it will probably take most of the island when it blows and send Tidal waves at China, Korea, Philipines, Indonesia, Canada, Alaska, Western USA, Hawaii...We are likely looking at a super-eruption that will be heard as far as Australia and the USA.

So would it be right to err on the side of caution and evacuate fifty million Japanese to Tasmania?

The Santorini event around 1600 BC and more recently Krakatoa are some examples of big eruptions. How do they stack up to this pending disaster?

Looks like Akrotiri was evacuated before the eruption so they had advanced warning of the disaster.
Don't book your hotel rooms in Tasmania yet my Yamato brethren!


meatrace wrote:

@IT-

Your dismissal of Aretas' position(s) will only be evidence to him that all "librulz" don't care about facts or reality or his god or whatever, and are shouting him down for being a conservative.

It's called a self-reinforcing delusion. Which, if there were any truth in advertising, would be the Republicans new slogan.

I can't believe I'm hearing this. My position? My position is DON'T call a man a "subconscious racist" without any evidence to back it up.

The rest of your post shows your in the twilight zone.


At Iron truth: Don't say it another way, show me how you support Chuck Norris is a subconscious racist? Focus, CHUCK NORRIS.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Straight up COMMIES? Van Jones, Axelrod, Jarret ring a bell and to name a FEW. All linked to the Chicago Communist party. Yes the CCP endorsed B.O. this year as well.

huh. I wondered what MacArthur was up to these days.

Yes, oddly enough a communist(if they actually are communists) is going to support a democrat the same way that a fascist is going to support a republican: its not their exact ideology but its closer to it.

I believe he is buried near the Fox river. I also read/heard from an that all his accusations were correct.

Not sure about the fascist = republican analogy. Maybe comparing apples to oranges.


Irontruth wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Irontruth wrote:


I'm just curious, are you saying that ALL pointing out of racism is gutless?

For example, am I gutless for calling the KKK racist?

Come on man you know what we are talking about.

No, I don't. You do this knee-jerk reaction to discrediting everyone anytime they call someone racist, that I have no idea what you're talking about any more.

Does racism exist?
Are you the only person who can determine what is and isn't racism? If so, what makes you qualified specifically?

"It is a subconscious expression of Chuck Norris' racism"

This is what I was responding to. This was the weak gutless comment I was calling out. Calling someone a subconscious racist is absurd. Its a cheap shot. Is there any proof the man is a racist?
Are you still curious?

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