My prayers go out to the families of Ambassador J. Christopher Stevens and the others killed.


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R.I.P.


link?


Here

My thoughts are with them as well.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

silverhair2008 wrote:
Link?

Here's a good overview at Al-Jazeera.

Terry Jones (the pastor, not the MP comedian) backed a movie about putting Muhammad on trial, and declared Sept. 11 "International Judge Mohammed Day". This touched off protests and riots in the Middle East, and rioters stormed the US embassies in Cairo and Libya, in particular, and killed Christopher Stephens, the US ambassador to Libya, and three other consular staff. The Cairo embassy was also attacked but apparently nobody was hurt.


That's Terry Jones of "burning Korans" fame, not of Monty Python, just to be clear.

He also apparently didn't make the film, but promoted it. I say apparently, since the name behind it, Sam Bacile, is apparently a pseudonym.

Almost all the coverage I've seen or heard has said very little about the film, not mentioning its name or anyone associated with it. Just a brief description of why it's offensive. I don't know if that's to avoid promoting it or for some other reason.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

thejeff wrote:
Almost all the coverage I've seen or heard has said very little about the film, not mentioning its name or anyone associated with it. Just a brief description of why it's offensive. I don't know if that's to avoid promoting it or for some other reason.

There's not a lot that can be verifiably said about who's associated with it, and apparently a fair amount of what has been said is conflicting or impossible. That said, it didn't make an impact until it was translated into Arabic and posted on Youtube, and here's a bit more on the person who posted the translated version. The attack on the Libyan embassy seems to have been planned, as well, unlike Cairo (and elsewhere, like Tunis) where the riots were spontaneous. (CNN's liveblog has some more about signs of planning)


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U.S. Muslims respond:

"Our first thought is condemning the attacks." Regarding the film: "We urge that this ignorant attempt to provoke the religious feelings of Muslims in the Arabic-speaking world be ignored and that its extremist producers not be given the cheap publicity they so desperately seek. Those who created this trashy film do not represent the people of America or the Christian faith. The only proper response to intentional provocations such as this film is to redouble efforts to promote mutual understanding between faiths and to marginalize extremists of all stripes."

THIS is the kind of stuff that leads me to believe that the more liberal interpretations of Islam can live at peace in a society based on democratic and/or Enlightenment values.

If only their more numerous and more conservative brethren worldwide would adopt their views.


Condolences. These people should not have died and this responsible for their deaths should be *harshly* punished.


Kirth Gersen wrote:

U.S. Muslims respond:

"Our first thought is condemning the attacks." Regarding the film: "We urge that this ignorant attempt to provoke the religious feelings of Muslims in the Arabic-speaking world be ignored and that its extremist producers not be given the cheap publicity they so desperately seek. Those who created this trashy film do not represent the people of America or the Christian faith. The only proper response to intentional provocations such as this film is to redouble efforts to promote mutual understanding between faiths and to marginalize extremists of all stripes."

THIS is the kind of stuff that leads me to believe that the more liberal interpretations of Islam can live at peace in a society based on democratic and/or Enlightenment values.

If only their more numerous and more conservative brethren worldwide would adopt their views.

And if only those producing and spreading trash like this film would do so as well.


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Freehold DM wrote:
Condolences. These people should not have died and this responsible for their deaths should be *harshly* punished.

But let's be clear, Terry Jones, the people who made the film, the people who posted an Arabic translation, Americans in general, members of the Christian faith in general, etc., are not those responsible.

I'm sure you didn't mean anything of the sort, but I've already seen that sentiment elsewhere.


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thejeff wrote:
And if only those producing and spreading trash like this film would do so as well.

No. Making a movie does not kill anyone. People using the film as an excuse to kill one another do. Comparing the two is a totally false equivalence.

I agree that making the film is tasteless and is a jerk move, but likening it to murder is equally outrageous to me.


meatrace wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Condolences. These people should not have died and this responsible for their deaths should be *harshly* punished.

But let's be clear, Terry Jones, the people who made the film, the people who posted an Arabic translation, Americans in general, members of the Christian faith in general, etc., are not those responsible.

I'm sure you didn't mean anything of the sort, but I've already seen that sentiment elsewhere.

They may not be responsible and they certainly shouldn't be punished, but the first few on that list are bigots and should be condemned.

I suspect, in the case of Terry Jones and Morris Sadek, that this is exactly the reaction they'd hoped to provoke.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:

THIS is the kind of stuff that leads me to believe that the more liberal interpretations of Islam can live at peace in a society based on democratic and/or Enlightenment values.

If only their more numerous and more conservative brethren worldwide would adopt their views.

And if only those producing and spreading trash like this film would do so as well.

No. Making a movie does not kill anyone. People using the film as an excuse to kill one another do.

Comparing the two is a totally false equivalence.

<editing some back in for context>

I was comparing the bigots making and spreading the film to the "more numerous and more conservative brethren" who have not condemned the attacks. Only a relative few used it as an excuse to kill.

I had no intention of likening it to murder, but it's also got little to do with democratic or Enlightenment values.


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thejeff wrote:

1. I was comparing the bigots making and spreading the film to the "more numerous and more conservative brethren" who have not condemned the attacks.

2. Only a relative few used it as an excuse to kill.
3. Or are you suggesting that all but the US Muslims you quote are "using the film as an excuse to kill one another"?

In response, item by item:

1. I'd say that's a pretty apt comparison, then.
2. If by "relative few" you mean the thousands who riot, burn, and attempt assassination every time someone so much as mentions the word "Islam" without salaaming, then OK. For a few, there sure are an awful lot of them, though. Rather than look at the % of Muslims who commit violent acts, in a vaccum, I'd compare that to the % of other groups who commit similarly violent acts in response to similar circumstances.
3. I would say that the Muslims who are not condemning it, but who nevertheless continue to demand one-way respect for Islam as a "peaceful religion," are in fact abetting and shielding the murderers.

Liberty's Edge

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Many fundamentalist Muslims do not believe in either freedom of speech or democracy; but rather in a totalitarian theocracy- which is why we have seen fatwas declared against those insulting Muhammed and/or Islam. In the U.S, people are free to critize or even insult Christianity or Judaism without being dragged out into the streets or murdered. I would hope the the murderers are caught and punished according to their country's laws; however, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this to happen. I do think that the U.S. should respond by cutting off foreign aid to nations which do not respect or are unable to protect the immunity of diplomatic staff in accordance with accepted international law.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Kirth Gersen wrote:

No. Making a movie does not kill anyone. People using the film as an excuse to kill one another do. Comparing the two is a totally false equivalence.

I agree that making the film is tasteless and is a jerk move, but likening it to murder is equally outrageous to me.

Bear in mind, we don't even know that anyone used the film as any sort of excuse at all. Rioters don't use RPGs. Contrast Cairo with Benghazi. in Cairo, an angry mob surrounded the complex, scaled the walls and took down the American flag and replaced it with a conservative Muslim banner, then stood around and chanted until they dispersed. That's a protest. Hang that on Jones's and Sadek's and "Bacile"'s necks all you like.

There's evidence that something was already planned for Sept. 11 in Benghazi, and the "protest" there was armed to the teeth, in a country that is generally more favorable to the US than Cairo. You've got a fairly significant amount of counter-protesting, as well.

That isn't their fault, nor the fault of Libyans or Muslims in general either.

Martin Kauffman 530 wrote:
Many fundamentalist Muslims do not believe in either freedom of speech or democracy; but rather in a totalitarian theocracy- which is why we have seen fatwas declared against those insulting Muhammed and/or Islam. In the U.S, people are free to critize or even insult Christianity or Judaism without being dragged out into the streets or murdered.

I like this qualifier. "Many fundamentalist Muslims." You can't possibly disagree with that, because, well, any examples aren't fundamentalist or are the exception that proves the rule! It turns out, most places, those "many fundamentalist Muslims" surrounded the US embassy and yelled a lot, and even when they got into the embassy it was to take down the American flag, spraypaint the walls, and yell some more. That's vandalism, I guess? It's not exactly dragging people into the streets and murdering them.

In fact, nobody was dragged out into the street and murdered, save possibly the American flag flying in the embassy in Cairo. The people who attacked the Benghazi embassy were skirmishing with the (Libyan!) security forces, and the people who died were caught in the fire caused by their attack. In fact, the attack specifically targeted the officials' safe house, and the main suspects are a group which has attacked this embassy before.

Promoting the idea that the west is the enemy of Islam and vice versa is the whole point of these groups. al-Qaeda etc. want to overthrow governments they see as sympathetic to the west and replace them with fundamentalist governments. Forcing a wedge between the US and a relatively new and unstable government in Libya serves their purposes nicely.

Sovereign Court

One terrible consequence of this heinous act is that a terrible terrible movie is getting publicity.


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Guy Humual wrote:
One terrible consequence of this heinous act is that a terrible terrible movie is getting publicity.

Poll: Which movie will become the feel-good comedy of the fall: this one, or Obama's America?


Guy Humual wrote:
One terrible consequence of this heinous act is that a terrible terrible movie is getting publicity.

ACtually that's one thing I liked about the coverage I've seen, which admittedly has been NPR and some online articles. No mention of the movies name or anyone involved in making it.

I had to go search for the film and people in order to find anything.

If that holds, not so much publicity.

Sovereign Court

meatrace wrote:
Guy Humual wrote:
One terrible consequence of this heinous act is that a terrible terrible movie is getting publicity.
Poll: Which movie will become the feel-good comedy of the fall: this one, or Obama's America?

Either way it's a loose/loose situation for humanity.


A Man In Black wrote:
I Cairo, an angry mob surrounded the complex, scaled the walls and took down the American flag and replaced it with a conservative Muslim banner, then stood around and chanted until they dispersed. That's a protest. Hang that on Jones's and Sadek's and "Bacile"'s necks all you like.

That's a good point, aMiB. Would that those "protested" the Muhammed cartoons in Denmark (by rioting and assassination) had instead been as classy as their less thuggish compatriots in Cairo.

Sovereign Court

thejeff wrote:
Guy Humual wrote:
One terrible consequence of this heinous act is that a terrible terrible movie is getting publicity.

ACtually that's one thing I liked about the coverage I've seen, which admittedly has been NPR and some online articles. No mention of the movies name or anyone involved in making it.

I had to go search for the film and people in order to find anything.

If that holds, not so much publicity.

Could it be that after a couple of decades in the wilderness journalistic integrity is returning to the mainstream? One can only hope.


Martin Kauffman 530 wrote:
Many fundamentalist Muslims do not believe in either freedom of speech or democracy; but rather in a totalitarian theocracy- which is why we have seen fatwas declared against those insulting Muhammed and/or Islam. In the U.S, people are free to critize or even insult Christianity or Judaism without being dragged out into the streets or murdered. I would hope the the murderers are caught and punished according to their country's laws; however, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this to happen. I do think that the U.S. should respond by cutting off foreign aid to nations which do not respect or are unable to protect the immunity of diplomatic staff in accordance with accepted international law.

Libyan security forces guarding the embassy fought with the attackers. I find it hard to blame them for letting a surprise attack by a group armed with heavy weaponry do damage.


thejeff wrote:
Guy Humual wrote:
One terrible consequence of this heinous act is that a terrible terrible movie is getting publicity.

ACtually that's one thing I liked about the coverage I've seen, which admittedly has been NPR and some online articles. No mention of the movies name or anyone involved in making it.

I had to go search for the film and people in order to find anything.

If that holds, not so much publicity.

It was all over CNN.


A Man In Black wrote:
You've got a fairly significant amount of counter-protesting, as well.

This gives me hope for humanity. Thank you for linking to it.


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Bitter Thorn wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Guy Humual wrote:
One terrible consequence of this heinous act is that a terrible terrible movie is getting publicity.

ACtually that's one thing I liked about the coverage I've seen, which admittedly has been NPR and some online articles. No mention of the movies name or anyone involved in making it.

I had to go search for the film and people in order to find anything.

If that holds, not so much publicity.

It was all over CNN.

I was afraid it would be.

Sovereign Court

thejeff wrote:
Bitter Thorn wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Guy Humual wrote:
One terrible consequence of this heinous act is that a terrible terrible movie is getting publicity.

ACtually that's one thing I liked about the coverage I've seen, which admittedly has been NPR and some online articles. No mention of the movies name or anyone involved in making it.

I had to go search for the film and people in order to find anything.

If that holds, not so much publicity.

It was all over CNN.
I was afraid it would be.

Leave it to CNN to lower the bar and take the easy route to reporting yet again.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

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Kirth Gersen wrote:
This gives me hope for humanity. Thank you for linking to it.

Have some more.

Translations courtesy of az jan jananam at Somethingawful:

Apologies to the Prophet, apologies to America

The armed minority of today will become the tyranny of tomorrow

Don't turn Libya into Afghanistan

No to the militias, yes to the army

(SA has a ton on this; one of the four people killed was a moderator there.)

edit: There's also this picture of Chris Stevens being dragged making the rounds, but the person in the picture is dragging the ambassador to the hospital.

Sovereign Court

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Also I doubt this was a spontaneous thing, likely these goons had this assault planned out well in advance and only needed some sort of protest to use as an excuse for the attack. This is not the work of the average Libyan. One of the problems with ousting Gaddafi is that you have all these nasty little well armed militia type groups running around with their own agendas. Libya is going to be the wild west for quite some time. I can only hope that this is an isolated incident and not a sign of things to come.


A Man In Black wrote:
(SA has a ton on this; one of the four people killed was a moderator there.)

As long as the images you're linking aren't from their Photoshop Friday...

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

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More links, translations again courtesy of az jan jananam on SA:

"I am a Libyan and I condemn the killing of the American ambassador in Libya; Terrorism does not represent me" on Facebook - a couple of highlighted images

Also from there: A modified conservative Muslim flag, captioned "There is no religion in terrorism"

A late-2011 survey of eastern Libya, showing overwhelming pro-American sentiment

A Facebook post on the attack, context, and response by a Libyan-American


Good god, no! I meant only the people who did the killing. The movies are truly disgusting, but they did not kill anyone.

meatrace wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Condolences. These people should not have died and this responsible for their deaths should be *harshly* punished.

But let's be clear, Terry Jones, the people who made the film, the people who posted an Arabic translation, Americans in general, members of the Christian faith in general, etc., are not those responsible.

I'm sure you didn't mean anything of the sort, but I've already seen that sentiment elsewhere.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

ABC Australia is reporting that the Benghazi attack "appeared professionally executed", and involved mortar attacks.


A Man In Black wrote:
ABC Australia is reporting that the Benghazi attack "appeared professionally executed", and involved mortar attacks.

Just to be clear for those who won't read it: This is a second attack on the evacuees from the embassy and on the force sent to escort them out.


A Man In Black wrote:
ABC Australia is reporting that the Benghazi attack "appeared professionally executed", and involved mortar attacks.

My money's on Romney. Hehe not really.

In seriousness, I am sorry to hear of the ambassador's death and the others. It all seems pretty senseless.

Liberty's Edge

US Cairo Embassy Twitter wrote:
3) Sorry, but neither breaches of our compound or angry messages will dissuade us from defending freedom of speech AND criticizing bigotry

--------

It sounds like some really cool people died. Pretty s+&$ty.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Gark the Goblin wrote:

Cairo embassy quote

It sounds like some really cool people died. Pretty s&~!ty.

For what it's worth, that was the other embassy, and that riot didn't do anything but make a mess. The embassy that was attacked in a more organized way and where people were killed was in Libya, not Egypt.

Unrelated, I'm hoping I can average one image like this per post.


What will send the take home message is ultimately whether the Libyans punish those involved or not. If this happened in the West, I think and hope we could be damn certain that this would be extensively acted on, with work progressing for years, even decades, to make sure the murderers got caught. THAT was the problem with the Jyllandsposten riots. Nobody paid for it

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Sissyl wrote:
What will send the take home message is ultimately whether the Libyans punish those involved or not. If this happened in the West, I think and hope we could be damn certain that this would be extensively acted on, with work progressing for years, even decades, to make sure the murderers got caught. THAT was the problem with the Jyllandsposten riots. Nobody paid for it

Yeah, nothing ever happened to al-Qaeda for bombing the Danish embassy to Pakistan. Nothing at all! As for the people of Libya, here's a dozen (and change) more pictures of people counter-protesting the attack in Benghazi. It's almost as if they're grateful to the US for backing the overthrow of the tyrannical dictator who had ruled the country for the last 30 years.

Liberty's Edge

A Man In Black wrote:
Gark the Goblin wrote:

Cairo embassy quote

It sounds like some really cool people died. Pretty s@#&ty.

For what it's worth, that was the other embassy, and that riot didn't do anything but make a mess. The embassy that was attacked in a more organized way and where people were killed was in Libya, not Egypt.

Yes, I was aware. It's a good quote though, I thought. Sorry for not providing more context.


A Man In Black wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
What will send the take home message is ultimately whether the Libyans punish those involved or not. If this happened in the West, I think and hope we could be damn certain that this would be extensively acted on, with work progressing for years, even decades, to make sure the murderers got caught. THAT was the problem with the Jyllandsposten riots. Nobody paid for it
Yeah, nothing ever happened to al-Qaeda for bombing the Danish embassy to Pakistan. Nothing at all! As for the people of Libya, here's a dozen (and change) more pictures of people counter-protesting the attack in Benghazi. It's almost as if they're grateful to the US for backing the overthrow of the tyrannical dictator who had ruled the country for the last 30 years.

And the people who burned the NORWEGIAN embassy for what the Danish newpaper did? It was riots... it's safe to say the people involved were not all al-qaeda... or is anyone who doesn't like the US and happens to be an arab al-qaeda?

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Sissyl wrote:
And the people who burned the NORWEGIAN embassy for what the Danish newpaper did? It was riots... it's safe to say the people involved were not all al-qaeda... or is anyone who doesn't like the US and happens to be an arab al-qaeda?

If you mean the ones in Syria, it was, at the time, a close ally of Iran and under international sanctions for all but invading Lebanon. When people made lists of "rogue states", Syria was at the top, largely because nobody at all liked them but Iran (who mainly supported them as a buffer against Israel) and because they were trying to start a civil war in a neighboring country. It was one incident in years of antagonism between Syria and both the west and the rest of the Middle East.

Libya isn't Syria. They aren't even on the same continent. The Libyan government is the US's ally, and exists largely because of the UN's support. The Libyan government's first response was to condemn the attack and promise to help the US government. Libyan security forces were the ones who retook the embassy compound from the attackers, and Libyan civilians were the ones who got Chris Stevens to a hospital after the attack. There are people protesting the attacks all over Libya. All of the reports from the attack are saying that it was executed by an experienced group, and may have been premeditated (meaning that it would have been planned before the idiot movie trailer made news).

But you need additional proof on top of all this?


Rest in peace indeed.

Vilerat AKA Sean Smith was one of those killed in the attacks. He was by all accounts an avid gamer and a very well respected moderator on the Somethingawful forums.

For those interested there is a memorial found being set up for his family. More details can be found on Somethingawful.com

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Libya Alhurra (Free Libya TV)'s coverage of counterprotests, in Arabic. Libya Alhurra is one of the main sources of the various images floating around; you can tell them by the diamond-shaped Libyan flag logo.

Al Jazeera is reporting that 10 Libyan security officers were killed defending the consulate.


Looks like they found the guy who made the film.

I don't wish death upon anyone, but I hope that since his identity is now known, his life can become as hectic and frightening as the lives he has ruined. He has every right to create offensive garbage (though dubbing over the actors was an infringement of their rights). Now he has an obligation to endure the consequences, as we all must, in a free society.


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The problem is that no matter WHERE you are, when freedom of speech is stoped, then ignorace, brutality, and dictatorship starts to become stronger. Freedom of speech means also alowing the bad stuff to be given voice. IMHO, that is one of the biggest thing wrong with areas like the middle east and China.


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ALSO, no matter what you do, it is offensive to SOMEONE. I wake up in the morning and I have offended someone. Me offending you does not give you the right to express violence upon me. If it is a legal matter, then that is for the courts to decide if it is wrong, not the mobs.


Now, having said that, I too am sending my prayers out to the family of the people affected by this violence, both American and Lybian. Thanks go out to the Lybians that fought for us and against the people who did this to the embasy.


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Another thing, if your religion can't take some "mocking", then it is not a strong religion. Your faith is proven by how you handle the negative times much more than the positive.


Sharoth wrote:
The problem is that no matter WHERE you are, when freedom of speech is stoped, then ignorace, brutality, and dictatorship starts to become stronger. Freedom of speech means also alowing the bad stuff to be given voice. IMHO, that is one of the biggest thing wrong with areas like the middle east and China.

No one here or in the US government is arguing that this should have been censored. Freedom of speech is not at risk here.

Freedom of speech also allows us to call the movie out as hateful and bigoted and to condemn those who made it.

The lack of freedom of speech is a problem in much of the world. It's hard for me to say it's the biggest. It also depends on how absolute you want to make the right.
It's so tied into the rest of the apparatus of dictatorship, that it's hard to split out what's a free speech issue at the root and what isn't.

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