background of decades of anti-arab and pro-Israel US foreign policies.
30th anniversary of the massacre at Sabra and Shatila going on now.
Click here to see what the Christians and the Jews can still get up to when they put their minds to it.
Nothing offensive with this line, only if you are preaching to the choir.
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Nothing offensive with this line, only if you are preaching to the choir.background of decades of anti-arab and pro-Israel US foreign policies.
30th anniversary of the massacre at Sabra and Shatila going on now.
Click here to see what the Christians and the Jews can still get up to when they put their minds to it.
More preaching to the choir:
Cheerleaders for Ethnic Cleansing: The Struggle for Rachel Corrie's Legacy
Islamophobia, Left and Right (although I've never really seen a good reason to consider Dawkins on the left)
I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt. :)Hi.
This is my first post here on the boards and I probably should have picked a less volatile thread but Aretas can you clarify what exactly is your opinion on the matter.
Distilling your original post I see a lot of rhetoric but little substance.The first sentence seems to imply that the violence exist because "millions or hundreds of millions of people" simply hate the US." Which doesn't really give much of a reason. Why do they hate?
Your second sentence seems to imply that diplomacy will not work and that the brave American diplomats that died were some how idiots for trying to bring peace to people "who only understand power". Now I know this is not your stance on the issue as it was you that started the Thread on this page honoring their sacrifice.
Please clarify. I think that they "rhetoric" that you choose to post is getting in the way of people understand what exactly you mean.
-TM
TM you are asking Trolls not to Troll... Aretas gets a little buzz of joy when people get upset at what he posts...
He probably believes what he posts, which is sad and shows a lack of critical thinking, empathy, historical and cultural awareness and compassion.
It's nice of you but, sadly, meatrace is spot on.
Aretas is fond of provocative affirmations, but weak on arguments and facts. Seen it thread after thread.
(of course, according to Aretas on another thread, I am a probable islamist sympathizer or activist. So feel free to dismiss anything I say) :)
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I find this to be both enlightening and more realistic than the above.
All that reinforces is that religion is cancer.
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How does all of that relate to this topic? Simple...it's extremely important to remember that the current unrest in the Islamic world is not happening in a vacuum. If this "movie trailer" were an isolated incident, then people would be right to call the violence "senseless".
...but it isn't. The people of the Islamic world have the perception that the West believes that Islam, and the people who practice it, are a mistake that has no right to exist on Planet Earth. Rightly or wrongly, many of the genuinely believe that they are fighting not just for their religion or sovereignty, but for their very right to exist.
There is no justification for any of the violence in the world anywhere, perpetrated by the U.S. government or otherwise. I won't make excuses for anyone that thinks killing is the way to solve problems, I don't care what side of the power spectrum they're on.
All violence is senseless, period.
I find this to be both enlightening and more realistic than the above.All that reinforces is that religion is cancer.
It's good to see you back.
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I'm continually fascinated by the statement that the nations of the Middle East(or Latin America, or Africa, for that matter) should embrace democracy...as though they haven't in the past.
In 1951, the Iranian people democratically elected (in an overwhelming landslide) Mohammed Mossadegh as their Prime Minister. The Americans and the British organized a coup and had him overthrown and killed...for the sole crime of believing that Iranians had a right to benefit from the resources sitting under their sovereign soil. We replaced him with the Shah, whose regime was in 1976 named by Amnesty International as the most brutal and repressive on the planet.
In 1953, the democratically elected president of the Congo (the first democratically elected ANYTHING in Africa), Patrice Lmumba was overthrown in a coup (and later executed) organized by the Belgians and Americans.
In 1983, the democratically elected government of Grenada was removed by the United States in an action that can be described in two ways: as wholesale slaughter, and the single most lop-sided military conflict in recorded human history (I mean, "Mike Tyson fighting a baby" lop-sided). This example is particularly egregious, as declassified memos being circulated between the State Department, the White House, and the intelligence services at the time show quite clearly that not only did they know that Grenada was not communist in any way shape, or form; but also that there was absolutely nothing in Grenada of any strategic or economic value to the United States (that is to say, they knew to an absolute certainty that even if the New Jewel movement WAS communist, they would have been no threat to the United States whatsoever). The people of Grenada were massacred solely because the United States wanted to send a message to other Latin American countries.
I could go on...for pages and pages of this thread. Guatemala, Chile, Egypt, Panama, the list goes on and on.
So what I would like is for someone to cogently explain to me how anybody on...
Then you will be thrilled to know that with the realization the Russians are sitting on trillions in diamonds located in an impact crater that will make them the Diamond brokers of the world - they will be able to provide all those south american nations with Nukes that will allow them to retain control of their resources and territory while the USA dies economically.
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It's good to see you back.I find this to be both enlightening and more realistic than the above.All that reinforces is that religion is cancer.
I haven't left yet, still getting some things settled before I can go ahead and just get it done with.
I heard about that in the news recently. Really brightened up my day, if you know what I mean* by that.
* = Now to explain the joke. Since I am Finnish and live in Finland, Russia getting more powerful can only be bad news for me in the long run.
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I heard about that in the news recently. Really brightened up my day, if you know what I mean* by that.
* = Now to explain the joke. Since I am Finnish and live in Finland, Russia getting more powerful can only be bad news for me in the long run.
Its not as if they will bother invading...they will just buy your government. You would be surprised what elected and appointed officials are prepared to do for rich people who invite them to snort caviar off a twelve year old.
This came across my desk today, it seems pretty right on in my opinion. What do you all think?
"The fact is, there are millions if not hundreds of millions of people in the Arab world who share the vision of Osama Bin Laden.
No matter how many times you apologize to them, no matter how many idiotic diplomats you send over there who think they're so wonderful because they went to Berkeley, one thing is clear: They only understand power, and they see that you're weak."
A German daily paper writes today:
"Three years after Obama's speech in Cairo which was supposed to initiate a new beginning in the Middle East, the United States now has even less support in the region than before.
"Naked hatred is raging against the country that millions of people regard as a symbol of freedom.
"When U.S. flags burn, embassies are vandalized and diplomats are murdered, it is an attack on the West and not just America.
"We rooted for the demonstrators at Tahrir Square, and many of us have longed to see democracy in the Arab nations. But democracy includes honoring the lives of fellow humans."
But we know those people can't honor the lives of fellow humans, especially infidels.
They used Obama. They used Hillary. They used the ambassador to get where they are.
And then they killed him."
Came across the "Savage Nation" last night. He stated that the founding fathers created the electoral college because they could foresee a time in which masses of illegal immigrants pouring over the border would take over the government by casting illegal votes. He also stated that liberals = socialists = atheists = evil. Do these sound like the words of a person that anyone would want to quote as being relevant to a civil discourse that actually, constructively is trying to help this country? Wish I had a link, but I am sure the transcript is out on the net somewhere.
Also Aretas, I have to say that I haven't had the same experience that some have stated as to your posts. I have found some of your arguments to be thought out. I almost always disagree, but that is just a personal choice based on our differing life experiences. While I have seen some insults, I have made a few of my own and I am trying to play a little nicer.Finally, I know this was a wall of text, but it is my 100th post. Only 3 million more to catch up to the big boys.
Its not as if they will bother invading...they will just buy your government. You would be surprised what elected and appointed officials are prepared to do for rich people who invite them to snort caviar off a twelve year old.I heard about that in the news recently. Really brightened up my day, if you know what I mean* by that.
* = Now to explain the joke. Since I am Finnish and live in Finland, Russia getting more powerful can only be bad news for me in the long run.
It's technically an invasion. Just without any violence.
"PWEEET!" Time out Children! Let yourselves be enlightened.
All religion and Law has a common ground from which it emerged
INDOEUROPEAN ORIGINS OF RELIGION: There are three concepts of Religion here: The Patriarch (where religious beliefs are ingrained in the idea of the head of the family as the spiritual authority and the idea that the 'chief god' - a Sun God at that - is the ultimate head of their family); Faith which involves personal spiritual reflection on the good memories of one's own life - the root-word governing this refers to the childhood memory of light through leaves of an ash tree; and Prophecy (Ritual Singing). This gives us the Religious practices: Prophecy/Singing (Bard), Individual Faith (Druid), Patriarchy (Cleric of the Sun God).
INDOEUROPEAN RELIGIOUS/LEGAL OBLIGATIONS: The obligation of caring for Family Elders, Oaths & Pledges, Use of Boundary Markers, Compensation (The Obligation to pay for an injury), Burial of the Family Dead in Barrow Mounds.
Even though you would characterize the Kurgans as Evil monsters who threw children into pits for hungry dogs to fight over the facts would indicate something more civilized than ourselves.
We all come from that - and we can call each other uncompromising monsters who need to be exterminated but the fact is we have a common ground from which we all strayed.
I love it when YD takes detailed notes from his personal campaign world design and presents them as historical facts!
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I'm not sure why "they" hate precisely. I can speculate. Is it Democracy vs Sharia law?
You realize those aren't opposites right? If 51% of the population wants law based on the Qu'ran then Quranic law is a democratic decision.
The concept you're thinking of is a government that recognizes inaliable rights of the indivdual: which is not something we've always been so good at ourselves.
Is it that they see our culture and are trying to repel it. Do they hate us for supporting guys like Saddam, Khaddafi, Mubarek, the Shah in the 70's? Do they hate us b/c we depose who we want, when we want?
All of the above. Also the write in answer that their lives suck and their politicians get them to vent their rage against people who aren't at fault for their lot in life in order to take the heat off themselves. Its a technique you should be familiar with as its what politicians here do: don't get mad at the corporations getting billions in payouts and tax cuts, get mad at someone getting 200 dollars a month in welfare!
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I love how any thread about the Middle East or US policy turns into thinly veiled "jew hatred" or "factual proof" that the US/Israel megacorp is the Fourth Reich. Because no other country, anywhere, ever, has blood on their hands and we all know "the jewish" are actually Drow slavers. I guess its not enough that I'm fairly "liberal", hate bigotry in any form, rescue kittens, am not a zionist, believe in 100% seperation of church and state, etc etc. Because based on the crap I see everytime in these topics I should just admit to being a monster because I'm an American Jew and a servicemember. So many open minds..
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I love how any thread about the Middle East or US policy turns into thinly veiled "jew hatred" or "factual proof" that the US/Israel megacorp is the Fourth Reich. Because no other country, anywhere, ever, has blood on their hands and we all know "the jewish" are actually Drow slavers. I guess its not enough that I'm fairly "liberal", hate bigotry in any form, rescue kittens, am not a zionist, believe in 100% seperation of church and state, etc etc. Because based on the crap I see everytime in these topics I should just admit to being a monster because I'm an American Jew and a servicemember. So many open minds..And of course any criticism of Israel is "jew hatred" thinly veiled or otherwise.
And of course any criticism is not, its purely intellectual and humanitarian, right?
I'm not saying it is, because I'm pretty critical of Israel myself, especially where the Palestinians are concerned (half my family being Palestinian), but after multiple threads it starts to rankle the nerves a bit.
I'm continually fascinated by the statement that the nations of the Middle East(or Latin America, or Africa, for that matter) should embrace democracy...as though they haven't in the past.
Well we didn't like the people they elected. We want a democracy but we want them to vote for someone that will support OUR interests and sell their natural resources at the low low price of a few tanks.
It's much easier to bribe a dictator than actually deal with the interests of a democracy. Unfortunately, what dictators often want is weapons to keep their people under control.I'm continually fascinated by the statement that the nations of the Middle East(or Latin America, or Africa, for that matter) should embrace democracy...as though they haven't in the past.Well we didn't like the people they elected. We want a democracy but we want them to vote for someone that will support OUR interests and sell their natural resources at the low low price of a few tanks.
Which they need to do because their people are sick of the low quality of life that being a natural resources hub in a mercantile system gets you. which they are because the dictator sold out to the foreign power for those tanks...
Gotta love it when you create the need for your own product.
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I love how any thread about the Middle East or US policy turns into thinly veiled "jew hatred" or "factual proof" that the US/Israel megacorp is the Fourth Reich. Because no other country, anywhere, ever, has blood on their hands and we all know "the jewish" are actually Drow slavers. I guess its not enough that I'm fairly "liberal", hate bigotry in any form, rescue kittens, am not a zionist, believe in 100% seperation of church and state, etc etc. Because based on the crap I see everytime in these topics I should just admit to being a monster because I'm an American Jew and a servicemember. So many open minds..
Are there any particular posts you're talking about? Because I'm not seeing it.
The last time that Citizen Maccabee accused me of anti-semitism, let's see, I think it was because I laughed at the idea that the Biblical Jews were any more moral than the Sodomites.
And that was before I even read the Book of Judges!
The last time that Citizen Maccabee accused me of anti-semitism, let's see, I think it was because I laughed at the idea that the Biblical Jews were any more moral than the Sodomites.
And that was before I even read the Book of Judges!
I don't think I've been accused of anti-semitism in years. Now I feel left out. I mean I don't even believe Israel has a right to exist!
Granted I don't believe any state has any right to exist, but people don't seem to care if I think that about Burundi, Liechtenstein, Turkmenistan, St. Lucia, Vanuatu, or Paraguay and most Americans have to have accidentally learned that at least one of those exists at some point in the past, despite their heroic efforts to the contrary.
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The last time that Citizen Maccabee accused me of anti-semitism, let's see, I think it was because I laughed at the idea that the Biblical Jews were any more moral than the Sodomites.
And that was before I even read the Book of Judges!
And the bible continues to disgust me
Meant that as a joke...ah well.
How does all of that relate to this topic? Simple...it's extremely important to remember that the current unrest in the Islamic world is not happening in a vacuum. If this "movie trailer" were an isolated incident, then people would be right to call the violence "senseless".
...but it isn't. The people of the Islamic world have the perception that the West believes that Islam, and the people who practice it, are a mistake that has no right to exist on Planet Earth. Rightly or wrongly, many of the genuinely believe that they are fighting not just for their religion or sovereignty, but for their very right to exist.
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on what you said about the Islamic world having the perception that the West believes they do not have a right to exist. First the West has welcomed millions or Arabs into their countries, while respecting their right to worship. The West has being involved in nation building in Bosnia & Kosovo to help Muslims, along with liberating millions from tyrannical regimes in Egypt & Libya including Iraq and Afghanistan.
The groups that are active in destroying the infrastructure and human resources of many Arab and Muslim countries are not the Western powers but various Islamic extremist groups. They seek to destabilize and intimidate the population into not cooperating with the international community.
When a suicide bomber attacks a public works recruitment office or a outdoor market they seek to terrorize the populous and are working for their own ends, for their puppet masters. Iran, Syria & Saudi Arabia come to mind.
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tyrannical regimes in Egypt & Libya including Iraq and Afghanistan.
Iran, Syria & Saudi Arabia come to mind.
The UK, US, Russia an France are responsible of setting up and sustaining those tyrannical governments... Read some history mate.
If you play with snakes don't go running home to "mommy" when one bites you.
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So, Aretas, your argument is that it's impossible for people in the islamic world to see the situation a certain way...because YOU disagree?
Elbe-el wasn't arguing that that IS the way it is, only that many perceive it to be that way. I agree that perception is incorrect, which is why we have to work to change that perception.
I guess my take is that western powers (like the US) have absolutely monkeyed in the middle-east to horrible effects. And I'd also say that, you're right, there's plenty of class-based exploitation taking place within those countries. And what has happened is that the powers that be in that region have used "the west" as a scapegoat to redirect all feelings of anger and resentment towards us, rather than their "puppetmasters" as you so eloquently put.
But saying that we're not 100% to blame doesn't change the fact that a good deal of the blame does legitimately lay with us.
If we stopped meddling completely, if we completely withdrew from the middle east militarily and let them work their own crap out, my hope is that they'd eventually realize they're still being screwed by their own leaders and turn their anger that way. We were beginning to see that happen last spring.