I have a wizard, who back in Beta PF, who made himself a pair of Bracers of Shielding.
Using the Shield Spell on continuous duration.
At the time I didn't pay too much attention, but the more I've started thinking about it, the more I begin to question this item.
It functions similarly to Bracers of Armor, except it's a shield bonus instead of an Armor bonus, so he can cast Mage Armor as well and have it stack. Plus he's proof against magic missles.
His final AC is comparable to the fighters, because he's got +8 to his AC (when you factor in Mage Armor, and Mage Armor has a long duration compared to Shield).
I realize that some of this should be mitigated because to apply a continuous effect on a spell with a shorter duration costs more..
.. but somehow I can't shake the feeling that he got overly clever with the rules and got one past me.
I'm tempted to nerf them to Bracers of Armor, but I wanted to solicit opinions first before taking action.
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First, I have not played much with item creation rules so I don't really know what I'm talking about here.
But, looking at the item creation rules there is an entry for 'armor bonus (other)' that costs bonus squared x 2,500gp so you are looking at a 40,000gp item right there (for a +4 shield bonus). Adding immunity to magic missile is a whole 'nuther issue that I can't seem to work out.
However from what I remember there actually isn't a direct formula for magical shield bonuses, so there really isn't anything official to go on.
Not sure I follow you on that point. The Shield Spell is a lot like Mage Armor except the bonus type is 'shield' and it's set at +4. Please clarify if you can.
Other opinions also welcome.
What did you price the item? I would definitely suggest it should be pricier than bracers of armor for exactly the reason you suggest. Mage armor is an hours/ level spell where shield is a minutes/ level.
Consider the closes comparison item is a Right of Force shield which only gives a +2 shield bonus, does not grant the magic missile defense, and costs 8500 GP.
So I'm not sure what pricing you used but seems like he got a really nice deal.
First, I have not played much with item creation rules so I don't really know what I'm talking about here.
But, looking at the item creation rules there is an entry for 'armor bonus (other)' that costs bonus squared x 2,500gp so you are looking at a 40,000gp item right there. Adding immunity to magic missile is a whole 'nuther issue that I can't seem to work out.
That's not shield bonus bro, that's random bonus (Like Sacred, Profane, luck, etc)
If you were going to use something you would use the normal armor bonus, which comes out to the same priceline of bracers of armor.
Correct..
In my case he went the route of a Spell Effect on Continuous instead of an Armor Bonus.
Quite literally the continuous use of the 'Shield' Spell.
Where as Bracers of Armor are built with the armor bonus rules, and Mage Armor as the pre-req.
Sure. What I was saying, is that in the chart, there isn't a listed value for "Shield Bonus"
There is for armor bonus (1,000*bonus squared) for natural and deflection (2000*bonus squared) and then the one for the random bonuses (2500*bonus squared)
Now, if you wanted to go by the baseline, you would have to assume to use the Armor value, which is a good assumption, but it's not raw.
I see where you're coming from! See my post above to see how he pulled it off.
And to answer Dennis, yeah, he probably did get it too cheap. But at this point I'd rather get control of munchkin aspect than wrry about getting more money from his PC.
regretably the pricing guidelines (and I have to remind myself that they are only guidelines from time to time, it's easy to get caught up in the 'rules') don't care what the spell's duration is. If you make a continuous use item of a spell the provided suggestion is caster level times spell level times 2,000.
(Which, in the case of a level 1 spell comes out to 2,000, even if it's a 1 round/caster level spell)
Although... now that I think about it... I'm thinking 10 minutes per level might be a good baseline assumption for such an item, and to raise the effective spell level by 1 for each time reduction (+1 effective pricing spell level for 1 minute per level spell, +2 effective pricing spell level for 1 round per level spell.)
You might want to double check how they revised that in Core, on page 550. Any spell that lasts less than ten minutes starts to get expensive. Just playing Devil's Advocate.
Just subscript note (2). If the duration of the spell is normally measured in rounds, you multiply the whole thing by 4.. so a Level 1 spell that is 1 round/caster level is actually 8,000 gps. (1 x 2,000 x 4).
But he built it in PF Beta, and think the price was still better then.
Oh, one quick word of advice.
If you have Sword and Fist, look up the Ring of Force Armor or whatever it's called in the magic items section.
You'll find if you do the math, it's significantly cheaper than an equivalent value bracers of armor.
You could slap the price from that onto the bracers if you wished, since the value of the bonus is the same.
(Personally I find bracers of armor to be overpriced, they're the only permanent armor bonus solution a monk has access to and they cost an arm and a leg. Even full casters have armor options available to them for cheap.)
Yeah.. but I'd rather just tell him it's an armor bonus and not a shield bonus and be done with it. I just want a better stance than "because I said so".
regretably the pricing guidelines (and I have to remind myself that they are only guidelines from time to time, it's easy to get caught up in the 'rules') don't care what the spell's duration is. If you make a continuous use item of a spell the provided suggestion is caster level times spell level times 2,000.
It does cover that really
For Use-activated or continuous it's Spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp
Hoe, ever it does have a not which reads"if a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half"
Yeah I am still finding little changes here and there myself. It is a massive tome after all
Hey Kryt or Seeker...
I still have my Pathfinder Beta Book, but I deleted the web enchancements.
Could you tell me what these Bracers would have cost back in Beta?
If nothing else, I'm curious what kind of deal he actually got.
Based on Shield spell, Level one, continuous...
For what it's worth Watcher, there is an advantage to crafting the full price item as opposed to the continuous spell item. The full price (Bracers of armor etc) use your full caster level at the time you craft them. That makes them alot more resistant to dispel magic than the other items, for which you have to pay more if you want them to have a higher caster level.
I'm not saying that necessarily makes up for the price difference, but I thought I'd point it out.
That is noteworthy, thanks...
Kyrt
Regardless, the number one thing concern with creating magic items is compare it to existing items which do the same effect. Closest item is the ring of force shield. So regardless of what the guidelines say about continuous effects 8500 should be the starting point for an item which provides a +2 shield bonus.
As for lower duration spells costing the same as higher duration spells, the guidelines are there to give you a ballpark idea then you are supposed to use your head.
Yeah.. but I'd rather just tell him it's an armor bonus and not a shield bonus and be done with it. I just want a better stance than "because I said so".
Have you read the Shield spell thoroughly and considered all its implications? I would not work against the player, rather work with what he has done. Take the continuous Shield spell and identify a down side to using it all the time.
For example, having an invisible shield of force hovering in front of me, would prevent me from eating or drinking normally. If he responds, that he moves it out of the way at those times, then it is much more like a real shield and thus not always usable for AC.
I was once told by a wise DM, "Give the players all the rope they want and stop worrying. They will hang themselves without ever taking up the slack." Work with him and the crash will be all the more spectacular - especially if he did pull one over on you.
Watcher this is your friend
You misunderstand. I got the book in front of me.
The player built the item in Beta, and as I recall it came out pretty cheap, but I can't remember specifically. I'm looking for the price guidelines from the Beta Web Enhancement, so I can do a comparison.
That link won't help me get that comparison in this specific instance.
And I'm much smarter about crafted items now than I used to be.
Actually, just so people know, the magic item guideline chart hasn't changed at all from the 3.5 DMG, save that they removed the line about an XP component for spells from the chart. Otherwise, everything is identical on that particular chart. I just put them side by side and compared them to make certain. As for the particulars...I'm sure that staves guidelines have changed. But my recommendation is to use some advice I saw once. I don't remember where it was, but a developer said that you shouldn't use the 'continuous effect' for AC bonuses, because it allows people to bypass the high cost of the AC bonuses, which are on the chart. But you might just say that it's Bracers of Armor. And if he doesn't like that idea, remember that the Caster Level of the item is whatever they used to craft it, so it's particularly vulnerable to Dispel Magic or other such spells.
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I just compared the Beta web enhancement table for estimating magic item gold piece values side by side with the final rules version and they are identical with one exception. That being to the "Special: Multiple different abilities" changed from a base price adjustment of "Multiply higher item cost by 2" in the beta to just 1.5 in the final rules.
So your calc would not change in regards to your bracers from beta to final.
Hope that helps.
EDIT: Ninja'd but I did find one change... :)
*nods* Yep. I was just comparing the charts, and mostly the relevant ones up top. I hadn't noticed that one, but it isn't a big deal for my games, at least not yet. I've been teaching an almost entirely new group the game, so they haven't been trying to create custom magic items. Yet.
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Watcher, for what it is worth, if you want to rule against your player's (fairly clever) loophole in the item creation cost guidelines (which is all they are) you could rule that the bracers function similarly to a +2 animated shield with the added ability to block magic missile. That should pump up the cost significantly as well as require a minimum CL of 12 (the requirement for the animated portion).
Just a suggestion.
Cheers
Some first level spells are just a bit munckin for continuous use. Like compare boots of expeditious retreat to boots of springing and striding.
The expeditious retreat ones will cost about 4k gold, and give +30ft speed permanently.
The boots of springing and striding give +10ft speed and +5 to jumps. It costs 5.5k gold.
I have a wizard, who back in Beta PF, made himself a pair of Bracers of Shielding.
Using the Shield Spell on continuous duration.
...
It functions similarly to Bracers of Armor, except it's a shield bonus instead of an Armor bonus, so he can cast Mage Armor as well and have it stack. Plus he's proof against magic missles.
...
His final AC is comparable to the fighters, because he's got +8 to his AC (when you factor in Mage Armor, and Mage Armor has a long duration compared to Shield).
...
I'm tempted to nerf them to Bracers of Armor, but I wanted to solicit opinions first before taking action.
As best as I can tell, the formula comes out to about 4,000gp. I probably wouldn't worry about this if I were you. While it is much better than your typical bracers of armor, so is a mithril chain shirt (which last I checked, a wizard can wear without trouble at all) which is cheaper and non-magical (though it can be enhanced with magic bringing your AC up even higher, for less money).
I would ask if it has actually caused a problem in the game. If not, then it's likely best not to bother with it; instead of worrying if he snuck a "munchkin item" by you. It may save the both of you some headache later on; especially since he'll want to upgrade past a mere +4 shield bonus later on for certain.
If you feel that you do want to get rid of this item because you feel its pushing the boundaries a bit, please allow me to offer you some suggestions for your player to try instead.
+1 Mithril Buckler: A +1 mithril buckler provides a +2 shield bonus, no spell failure, no check penalties, and keeps your hand relatively free. It's a steal at about 2,165gp (or less if crafting yourself). What's more, you can enhance it as you go with various shield enchantments.
+1 Mithril Chain Shirt: This one is less appealing, unless you have the Arcane Armor Training feat (prerequisites: light armor proficiency, CL 3rd). It has a 10% arcane spell failure (1-2 on a d20) or 0% with the feat, and grants a +5 armor bonus. It's only 85gp more expensive than the buckler. Being light armor, it can also be slept in without issue.
Your player can have a +8 combined AC for about the same price this way, and it saves him the trouble of casting mage armor regularly as well. It also gives him the option to scale it with his level (since a shield / mage armor will always only give a +4 each). These can each become +5 magical items, granting a combined total of +15 AC, and a variety of extra abilities.
But again, it all comes down to if you really care so much. :)
I personally would go with the armor and shield. Even without the feat, your arcane spell failure is only on a 1-2 (d20) result. You might find the extra protection is worth it; 'till you can pick up the feat at least.
PS - Also, there's a Twilight enchantment mentioned in the 3.5 PHB-II. If I recally correctly, it's a +1 armor bonus priced enchantment that reduces the ASF of an armor by an additional 10%. You may wish to look into it.
Per the item creation rules, use a similar magical item (or items) as the base.
For the shield portion, the easiest way to get it is to use an Animated Shield.
This is equivalent to a +4 Animated heavy Steel Shield (AC +4, Animated). Price? 16,170gp
Now, we need to modify it because it uses up a slot (Arms) which the Animated Shield doesn't normally do. I'd say that taking up the arms slot is at least as limiting as making it require a skill t use, so let's reduce it by 10%.
Price so far : 14,553
Now, we have to add on the 'stops magic missile'. The closest item is a Broach of Shielding, but it only stops 101 points of damage and then melts. Not exactly what we are looking for, but it gives us a price of 1500gp, so that's at least a benchmark to say 'If it comes in cheaper than this, it's way too cheap'.
Let's go back to the original shield spell. That looks like a good candidate to handle this. Shield is a 1st level spell that lasts 1 minute per caster level. So...
1 x 1 x 2,000 x 2 = 4,000
Now, the rules say to add 50% to the cost of the item if it's a second ability not related to the first, however, we're also removing half the first level spell (the +4 Shield AC), so we'll call that a wash.
Final Price : 19,553
I'd probably just call it 19K and be done with it. Now, that puts them in at 3,000 more than the Bracers of Armor, but they both take up the same spot, both grant the same +4 AC (shield vs armor), but the Bracers of Shielding give you immunity to magic missile at roughly twice the cost of a Broach of Shielding (which to me is about the right multiplier to go from 101 to permanent).
I have a question MDT, do you genuinely believe that bracers of armor are fairly priced? In my experience that's not the case at all, and while full casters have the luxury of rocking out to various transformation spells and buffs etc, the poor monk doesn't get jack lol.
A Permanent item of +4 Armor bonus to AC for 4,000 gold sounds about right to me. A chain shirt doesn't reduce mobility, has minimal impact on skill checks, and has a high enough dex roof that most PC's will never breach it, all for the lovely cost of 150 gold, and grants the same amount of Armor Bonus.
So, we take that formula, apply the +50% price for the second ability, and we get 6,000 for a continuous shield spell. (A +2 heavy shield costs a hair over 5,000 by the way)
I don't think it's perfect, but it does eat the arm slot, and a good houserule would be to make it function in the way a ring of force shield does (requires the use of the arm, lose the bonus when two-handing or dual-wielding with that hand, etc)
Sounds like a plan to me :) lol.
I think that the bracers are probably appropriately priced based on the fact that they are designed for classes without armor proficiencies. Mainly, bracers of armor are for Mages, Monks, and Sorcerers. These classes either have magic spells to handle their armor, or they get bonus's to AC when not wearing armor (ala Monks).
The problem is that while the 6000 is not unbalanced for fighters or clerics or rangers or rogues, and not unduly unbalanced for spell casters, Monks throw the whole thing out. What you're basically saying is for 6,000 a monk can double his AC bonus from his wisdom at low levels. Add on that you can stack a Shield Bonus and an Armor Bonus and a Natural Armor bonus and a Deflection Bonus, and now you're talking about for little money the monk can be walking around on the field with an AC easily 50% higher than what a fighter could get at 20th level but the Monk can get it a lot lower, easily doubling the fighter at lower levels for the same cost thanks to his class abilities.
So... like I said, if the Monk didn't exist, then no, I'd agree with you. But because of the Monk and his special abilities... that's why non-armor armor bonuses are so expensive, to keep Monks from taking over the world. ;)
Sounds like a plan to me :) lol.
Except you are still ignoring several existing items which do the exact same thing for far more money. Animates shield, ring of force shield.
Rule #1 on items is don't duplicate an existing item for less money.
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First, I have not played much with item creation rules so I don't really know what I'm talking about here.
But, looking at the item creation rules there is an entry for 'armor bonus (other)' that costs bonus squared x 2,500gp so you are looking at a 40,000gp item right there. Adding immunity to magic missile is a whole 'nuther issue that I can't seem to work out.
That's not shield bonus bro, that's random bonus (Like Sacred, Profane, luck, etc)
If you were going to use something you would use the normal armor bonus, which comes out to the same priceline of bracers of armor.
Correct..
In my case he went the route of a Spell Effect on Continuous instead of an Armor Bonus.
Quite literally the continuous use of the 'Shield' Spell.
Where as Bracers of Armor are built with the armor bonus rules, and Mage Armor as the pre-req.
The Archmage in my group picked 'Persistent Spell', and now half his high-level spells are low-level spells that are "permanently" in effect due to that feat -- including, among others, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance, Haste, and Shield.
By the rules in the Core, the cost would be 4000 gold.
That is too cheap when compared to other magical items that provide similar protection of AC +4 (not including actual armor and shields). Especially when compared to bracers of armor +4 (16 000 gold).
I would likely cost it out at 18 000 gold, to reflect the advantage of being immune to Magic Missiles.
As for your current player, I would recommend allowing them to keep the bracers, if they are not causing undue disruptions to the game (unbalanced compared to the other players, other players jealous/upset, etc.). I would let the player know that to replace those bracers, what the cost would be, and that I would not likely not allow them to upgrade the bracers (or if I did, the cost would be comparable to increasing bracers of armor).
Unless you have a really good reason, I feel that it is just wrong to penalize a player, especially when you OKed the item in the past.
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I'd also keep in mind that this item would essentially be casting the shield spell all the time. Which means that it has the same flaws as the shield spell. Namely, since you are not actively controlling where the shield is and it just hovers in front of you, attacks that do not come from the front are not effected by the shield. When attacked from a side or the rear, the +4 ac bonus does not come into play.
I'd also keep in mind that this item would essentially be casting the shield spell all the time. Which means that it has the same flaws as the shield spell. Namely, since you are not actively controlling where the shield is and it just hovers in front of you, attacks that do not come from the front are not effected by the shield. When attacked from a side or the rear, the +4 ac bonus does not come into play.
This is no more true than saying attacks from the rear against a fighter wearing a steel shield don't get his shield bonus.
There is no facing in Pathfinder combat, so there is no "rear".
Unless you are specifically helpless, or affected by some other condition that prevents you from defending yourself, you are always assumed to be actively aware of and defending against all incoming attacks from any direction. Which means your Shield bonus always applies.
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I'd also keep in mind that this item would essentially be casting the shield spell all the time. Which means that it has the same flaws as the shield spell. Namely, since you are not actively controlling where the shield is and it just hovers in front of you, attacks that do not come from the front are not effected by the shield. When attacked from a side or the rear, the +4 ac bonus does not come into play.This is no more true than saying attacks from the rear against a fighter wearing a steel shield don't get his shield bonus.
There is no facing in Pathfinder combat, so there is no "rear".
Unless you are specifically helpless, or affected by some other condition that prevents you from defending yourself, you are always assumed to be actively aware of and defending against all incoming attacks from any direction. Which means your Shield bonus always applies.
Well, when a fighter is using his shield it is on his arm and is not specifically unmovable by him. The shield spell specifically says that it hovers in front of the caster. The caster does not get a armor penalty because he doesn't hold it and does not need to use it in active defense. A fighter who is aware of an attack from the rear, could swivel around to try to deflect an attack from a direction other than the front. He "gains" the armor check penalty/spell failure chance because he is physically holding the shield and moving it to intercept blows.
EDIT: Pointless argument as I believe the dm will chose to rule however they want. I know in previous editions the spell specifically only effected attacks from the front.
This seems somehow familiar... ;)Per the item creation rules, use a similar magical item (or items) as the base.
For the shield portion, the easiest way to get it is to use an Animated Shield.
Absolutely. :) I saw your post, just figured I'd go into detail to show how the pricing worked out to be similar to a Bracers of Armor. ;)
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Absolutely. :) I saw your post, just figured I'd go into detail to show how the pricing worked out to be similar to a Bracers of Armor. ;)This seems somehow familiar... ;)Per the item creation rules, use a similar magical item (or items) as the base.
For the shield portion, the easiest way to get it is to use an Animated Shield.
I'm just teasing you! :) and quite honestly I didn't want to do all the math!
Cheers
After reading, it looks more to me like he created a Bracers of Shielding. They should function like a Brooch of Shielding, after 101 points of magic missile absorption they should melt away.
The only real difference is they are bracers instead of a brooch.
After reading, it looks more to me like he created a Bracers of Shielding. They should function like a Brooch of Shielding, after 101 points of magic missile absorption they should melt away.
The only real difference is they are bracers instead of a brooch.
You're missing the +4 shield bonus
You're missing the +4 shield bonus
No, I'm not. A Brooch of Shielding doesn't provide a +4 shield bonus. What he created was Bracers of Shielding. Just like a brooch, just made from bracers.
Craft Wonderous Item + Shield = [Item] of Shielding.
So yes, they player screwed the GM over, he should not be getting a shield bonus. Now had he included Mage Armor in the creation (and paid the appropriate costs) then he would have ended up with bracers that provide not only a deflection bonus to his AC, but protection from magic missiles (but still no shield bonus). The level of the protection from magic missiles(permanent or 101 points) would be left up to the GM, I'd say 101 but allow it to be recharged.
Folks,
Thanks for the wonderful discussion. There were a lot of great ideas, and some good pointers.
In the end, I don't think it's worth taking them back from the player, since he's had them for awhile. I think, for me, the sensible solution is Mistwell's. Let the player keep them, and let him know that he could not produce another pair for that price, or upgrade them.. and let it go.
It was right before bed last night so I was probably a little crabby. But it's not worth stressing about.
For what's worth, he also created Boots of Expeditious Retreat! Lol.. It was at the same time. I remember I was extremely busy at that time during the campaign and had a lot of issues going on both in real life and with some other players. I got distracted and hand waved them through, along with the Bracers of Shielding. He only made one pair of such Boots and gave them to another player. That other player voluntarily nerfed them closer to Boots of Speed, because he felt they were cheesy.
I'm going to tell him that these Bracers of Shielding are a fluke, a lucky accident in magic item creation that are never likely to be reporoduced ever again for that price. Therefore they are something of a personal legacy to that character.
And I'll be much more thorough in my adjudication of crafted items that aren't in the book.
I am of the opinion that it should be priced like a deflection bonus, i.e. 32,000gp. While I originally was thinking that it should be closer to an armor enhancement bonus (since that is in the range of an animated shield, or 16,000gp), it occurred to me that armor enhancement bonuses require you to wear armor, which gives weighs you down, adds armor checks, and spell failure, etc. I think that's why it gets the discount.
That said, I can't for the life of me figure why deflection bonuses get a price break compared to other AC bonuses. Does anybody know why? Are there situations where deflection bonuses don't apply?
For the player, I would tell him that you need to change the item's effect because it is WAY under-priced. The item could be changed to one that casts 1st level shield 5/day as a standard action, which by the RAW costs 4000gp. He can still use it in combat pretty effectively, but it has a pretty short duration, and requires an action to activate.
In the end, I don't think it's worth taking them back from the player, since he's had them for awhile. I think, for me, the sensible solution is Mistwell's. Let the player keep them, and let him know that he could not produce another pair for that price, or upgrade them.. and let it go.
This is probably for the best. It's always difficult to take stuff away from players.
You illustrated the biggest problem with the magic item formulas, they give the illusion that you can create balanced magic items by following a simple formula. In truth magic items pricing is quite tricky (as all the discussion in this thread demonstrates) and can lead to some really unbalanced stuff.