Dimension agility feat chain

Hello, everybody.

I invite anybody to share there opinions on the topics addressed below.
Thank you in advance for your civil and insightful commentary. =P

1. Does the abilities that act as Dimension door, qualify as the pre-req to learn Dimensional Agility?

And in the same vein:

2. Do items (I.E wands/or staves)that allow the casting/or effect that acts as Dimension Door able to be used with the Dimensional agility chant of feats?

I've debated the issue both ways with GMs I've played with in that past and currently. My ruling (as a GM) is the first yes and the second no. My current GM stated he would allow the second but not the first.

Hello, everybody.

I invite anybody to share there opinions on the topics addressed below.
Thank you in advance for your civil and insightful commentary. =P

1. Does the abilities that act as Dimension door, qualify as the pre-req to learn Dimensional Agility?

And in the same vein:

2. Do items (I.E wands/or staves)that allow the casting/or effect that acts as Dimension Door able to be used with the Dimensional agility chant of feats?

I've debated the issue both ways with GMs I've played with in that past and currently. My ruling (as a GM) is the first yes and the second no. My current GM stated he would allow the second but not the first.

1. Yes, specifically the Monk's boundless step.

2. No. you have to be able to enact the ability innately.

Your GM needs to re-read the feats again.

1) Monk's Abundant Step ability is the only ability that acts like Dimension Door that would qualify, as stated by the feat pre-reqs.

So this doesn't qualify?

Maker's Jump (Sp): At 6th level, whenever the synthesist is fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can cast dimension door as a spell-like ability using his caster level. This ability only affects the fused synthesist and eidolon. The synthesist can use this ability once per day at 6th level, plus one additional time per day for every six levels beyond 6th. This ability replaces maker's call and transposition.

or

4-Point Evolutions
The following evolutions cost 4 points from the eidolon's evolution pool.

Dimension Door (Sp): An eidolon learns to cast dimension door as a spell-like ability once per day. The caster level for this evolution is equal to the eidolon's Hit Dice. The save DC for this spell is 10 + 1/2 the eidolon's HD + the eidolon's Charisma modifier. The eidolon must have a Charisma score of at least 14 to take this evolution. The summoner must be at least 13th level before selecting this evolution.

Which is the basis for the disagreement, how many way's can you start the effect of Dimension Assault or Agility.

Dimensional Agility "Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door." It does not say that Spell Like abilities qualify for this feat, so Maker's Jump and DD SLA do not benefit from this feat.

Dimensional Agility "Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door."

In that language comes the opposing side arguement then as well once again. Cast dimension door, if you are using an Stave or wand to cast.
You are still casting. Is there direct language, that disallows this?

I feel as stated before, that this does not qualify but I'm not against abusing this slightly as my current GM allows it.

So this doesn't qualify?

Maker's Jump (Sp): At 6th level, whenever the synthesist is fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can cast dimension door as a spell-like ability using his caster level. This ability only affects the fused synthesist and eidolon. The synthesist can use this ability once per day at 6th level, plus one additional time per day for every six levels beyond 6th. This ability replaces maker's call and transposition.

or

4-Point Evolutions
The following evolutions cost 4 points from the eidolon's evolution pool.

Dimension Door (Sp): An eidolon learns to cast dimension door as a spell-like ability once per day. The caster level for this evolution is equal to the eidolon's Hit Dice. The save DC for this spell is 10 + 1/2 the eidolon's HD + the eidolon's Charisma modifier. The eidolon must have a Charisma score of at least 14 to take this evolution. The summoner must be at least 13th level before selecting this evolution.

Which is the basis for the disagreement, how many way's can you start the effect of Dimension Assault or Agility.

I would rule that both qualify, as you are casting DD. If you look at it though you note that you dont get it any sooner.

Dimensional Agility "Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door." It does not say that Spell Like abilities qualify for this feat, so Maker's Jump and DD SLA do not benefit from this feat.

Any SLA that works "like dimension door" will work.

The requirements are Abundant Step or the ability to cast dimension door. Spell Like Abilities are explicitly referred to as being "cast" in the rulebook, and they function exactly like the spells they duplicate with a very limited set of exceptions, none of which are "can't be used to qualify for feats".

What about shadow dancer's ability that acts like dimension door?

David Thomassen wrote:

Dimensional Agility "Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door." It does not say that Spell Like abilities qualify for this feat, so Maker's Jump and DD SLA do not benefit from this feat.

Any SLA that works "like dimension door" will work.

The requirements are Abundant Step or the ability to cast dimension door. Spell Like Abilities are explicitly referred to as being "cast" in the rulebook, and they function exactly like the spells they duplicate with a very limited set of exceptions, none of which are "can't be used to qualify for feats".

Rules fail -- spell like abilities aren't spells. They do not have material, somatic, or verbal components require only mental action and are not arcane or divine (something all spells are).

EDIT:

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

Some creatures actually cast arcane spells as sorcerers do, using components when required. Some creatures have both spell-like abilities and actual spellcasting power.

A spell is a one-time magical effect. Spells come in two types:

Arcane (cast by bards, sorcerers, and wizards) and
Divine (cast by clerics, druids, and experienced paladins and rangers)

Some spellcasters select their spells from a limited list of spells known, while others have access to a wide variety of options.

Most spellcasters prepare spells in advance-whether from a spellbook or through prayers-while some cast spells spontaneously without preparation. Despite these different ways characters use to learn or prepare their spells, when it comes to casting them, the spells are very much alike.

Fozbek wrote:

David Thomassen wrote:

Dimensional Agility "Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door." It does not say that Spell Like abilities qualify for this feat, so Maker's Jump and DD SLA do not benefit from this feat.

Any SLA that works "like dimension door" will work.

The requirements are Abundant Step or the ability to cast dimension door. Spell Like Abilities are explicitly referred to as being "cast" in the rulebook, and they function exactly like the spells they duplicate with a very limited set of exceptions, none of which are "can't be used to qualify for feats".

Rules fail -- spell like abilities aren't spells. They do not have material, somatic, or verbal components require only mental action and are not arcane or divine (something all spells are).

Reading comprehension fail. The fact that SLAs are not 100% identical to spells is irrelevant, because the feats in question don't require spells.

Dimensional Agility and the other feats in that line do not require you to be able to cast dimension door as a spell. Just that you can cast it. Spell-Like Abilities can be cast. Here's some examples:

Summon Monster I (Sp): Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.

---

Dimension Door (Sp): An eidolon learns to cast dimension door as a spell-like ability once per day.

---

Ultimate Magic (Sp): An eidolon learns to cast a powerful spell as a spell-like ability.

---

Maker's Jump (Sp): At 6th level, whenever the synthesist is fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can cast dimension door as a spell-like ability using his caster level.

Further, SLAs function explicitly just like spells, except that they don't have components, can't counter/be countered, and have a standardized casting time. Nowhere in there does it say "except that they are not cast".

For completeness's sake, the feat requirements:

Dimensional Agility

Teleportation does not faze you.
Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door.
Benefit: After using abundant step or casting dimension door, you can take any actions you still have remaining on your turn. You also gain a +4 bonus on Concentration checks when casting teleportation spells.

No mention of spells.

You cannot counter spell with it -- it is not a spell. You cannot use metamagic feats with it -- it is not a spell -- you cast spells, you activate spell like abilities.

In accurate language a few areas do not over rule how the basic spell like ability works -- if you were right there there would be no need to explicitly call out abundant step.

Since you aren't right they had to explicitly allow for abundant step.

All in all this isn't even anything new -- a forum search will show this has been gone over before.

Please note (again):

The user activates it mentally.

In accurate language a few areas do not over rule how the basic spell like ability works -- if you were right there there would be no need to explicitly call out abundant step.

Since you aren't right they had to explicitly allow for abundant step.

Hey look! More reading comprehension fail!

Abundant Step is a Supernatural Ability, not a Spell-Like Ability. Supernatural Abilities do not have the catch-all "this ability functions just like the spell of the same name" language that SLAs do. Thus, yes, they did have to explicitly add Abundant Step to the requirements.

All in all this isn't even anything new -- a forum search will show this has been gone over before.

Yes, it has. And in every case, your position was shown to be incorrect.

To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell.

If it doesn't have those things you don't need to do them -- but you still must concentrate to cast the spell.

Please note spell like abilities function like spells, this doesn't mean they are spells. Spells are all arcane or divine, spell like abilities are neither -- because they are in fact not spells, spells are cast from slots -- spell like abilities are activated.

As to your point that supernatural abilities would still need the language you prove my point for me -- after all several places they use the 'cast' word with supernatural abilities.

Please note spell like abilities function like spells, this doesn't mean they are spells. Spells are all arcane or divine, spell like abilities are neither -- because they are in fact not spells.

And, again, THAT IS ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT.

Dimensional Agility does not even use the word "spell".

Besides, you're wrong anyway. SLAs have been explicitly stated by Jason Buhlman himself to function with feats that only work on spells. For example, Augment Summoning works with the Summoner's summon monster SLA, and Spell Focus works on SLAs. Both have been officially confirmed.

How about I just do you the favor of pointing out the FAQ?

Spell like abilities are not spells -- as the entry for spell like abilities specifically points out spell like abilities usually function like spells -- but that doesn't mean they are spells. Spell like abilities are activated for example instead of cast.

In short the message I'm getting that to get the feat itself you must have either Abundant Step or be able to cast Dimension Door. No shortcuts.

That's casual, depending on how you define the word "cast"

But the other half of my question is once you qualify for the feat and other feats down its chain, Dimensional Assault, Dervish and Savant can use them with spell like abilities, wands or staves?

Teleportation doesn't faze you after all.

Edit: Ack the answer is clearly written in the FAQ you linked.

Does using a potion, scroll, staff, or wand count as "casting a spell" for purposes of feats and special abilities like Augment Summoning, Spell Focus, an evoker's ability to do extra damage with evocation spells, bloodline abilities, and so on?
No. Unless they specifically state otherwise, feats and abilities that modify spells you cast only affect actual spellcasting, not using magic items that emulate spellcasting or work like spellcasting.

—Sean K Reynolds, 08/31/10 Back to Top

Now the moment of truth. Do I bring this to my GM's attention or to I continue to abuse his "houserules" =P

Thanks, Internet People.

And while I have your attention.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/houseRules/synthesistHouseRulesCheckMySanity

I'd appreicate a few thought on that as well.
Thank you in advance for your civil and insightful commentary. =P

why get angry when someone does not agree with you. your home game, your way.Perhaps taking a step back for a minute may help.

I would like to see this facted for future PFS rulings though.

How about I just do you the favor of pointing out the FAQ?

Wow, more reading comprehension fail. That FAQ entry is, again, completely and utterly irrelevant to the matter at hand.

Spell like abilities are activated for example instead of cast.

Go back and re-read my first response to you. You'll see that you are, in fact, incorrect, at least partially. Some SLAs are explicitly referred to as being cast.

Besides, you're wrong anyway. SLAs have been explicitly stated by Jason Buhlman himself to function with feats that only work on spells. For example, Augment Summoning works with the Summoner's summon monster SLA, and Spell Focus works on SLAs. Both have been officially confirmed.

Citation? The developers state their opinions on a lot of things -- doesn't mean that's the official of how it works though.

EDIT:

FAQ states augment summoning only functions on actual spell casting FAQ in question

But the feat does say "cast" - I like the argument of a sub-set of Spell Like Abilities with the wording of "Allows you to cast", but at the moment no SLA can be used to Craft Magic Items, be modified by Meta-Magic feats or do other things that true spell-casting allows.
So until the Developers change their mind on this it is not permisable for PFS, as to your home game, Rule Zero always applies - GMs rule. (Just ask them about it when creating the character and get it written down)

but at the moment no SLA can be used to Craft Magic Items

Yes, they can. Can you cite where it says they cannot?

FAQ states augment summoning only functions on actual spell casting FAQ in question

More RCF. That FAQ specifically calls out magic items. It doesn't even mention spell-like abilities.

Abraham spalding wrote:

FAQ states augment summoning only functions on actual spell casting FAQ in question

More RCF. That FAQ specifically calls out magic items. It doesn't even mention spell-like abilities.

Look again -- it says (and I quote)

Unless they specifically state otherwise, feats and abilities that modify spells you cast only affect actual spellcasting, not using magic items that emulate spellcasting or work like spellcasting.

Now that does apply to magic items yes -- but spell like abilities are again not actual spell casting since it can't be used in the way spells are and isn't arcane or divine which all spell casting is.

I comprehend just fine -- in fact I can even apply what I read as well -- spell casting is always arcane or divine -- spell like abilities are not and are in fact not spells. Feats and abilities that modifier spells only affect actual spellcasting -- which activating spell like abilities is not. Therefore the exact same rules apply just as they do with magic items -- which is also not actual spellcasting.

Jason Bulmahn on Augment Summoning and SLAs. And a confirmation of the argument I've been making in this thread by Jason.

I can't remember specifically which rules guy it was that said Spell Focus would also work. I think it was Mr. Radney-MacFarland, but I don't have good enough search-fu to find it right now. The Augment Summoning thing was easier because I remembered it was in the APG-specific threads. Either way, following the logic that Jason specifically confirmed, SLAs can be used to qualify for and activate feats that specifically say they work on spells (such as Augment Summoning), which means feats that do not specifically call out spells are logically also fair game.

Like, coincidentally, Dimensional Agility.

David Thomassen wrote:

but at the moment no SLA can be used to Craft Magic Items

Yes, they can. Can you cite where it says they cannot?

I cannot yet quote where I read this, but I do know that SLAs cannot be used to trigger spell completion/trigger items FAQ "Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as having that spell on its spell list for the purpose of activating spell completion or spell trigger items?

Jason Bulmahn on Augment Summoning and SLAs. And a confirmation of the argument I've been making in this thread by Jason.

I can't remember specifically which rules guy it was that said Spell Focus would also work. I think it was Mr. Radney-MacFarland, but I don't have good enough search-fu to find it right now. The Augment Summoning thing was easier because I remembered it was in the APG-specific threads.

It reads that summoners specifically can use augment summoning with their specific spell like ability to summon monsters. As he specifies that it works with the spell like ability -- not all such spell like abilities. Please note that the specific spell like ability in question has several points where it diverges from a 'normal' spell like ability already.

These summon spells are considered to be part of his spell list for the purposes of spell trigger and spell completion items. In addition, he can expend uses of this ability to fufill the construction requirements of any magic item he creates, so long as he can use this ability to cast the required spell.

Last sentences from the specific spell like ability in question for reference.

Close enough for you?

Nope. You don't have to have a spell on your spell list to use it to craft magic items, so that FAQ entry doesn't matter. In fact, if you wanted to, you could use UMD to activate a scroll a day in order to craft a wand of a spell you can't cast. It'd be horridly wasteful, but it's allowed by the rules.

Fozbek wrote:

Jason Bulmahn on Augment Summoning and SLAs. And a confirmation of the argument I've been making in this thread by Jason.

I can't remember specifically which rules guy it was that said Spell Focus would also work. I think it was Mr. Radney-MacFarland, but I don't have good enough search-fu to find it right now. The Augment Summoning thing was easier because I remembered it was in the APG-specific threads.

It reads that summoners specifically can use augment summoning with their specific spell like ability to summon monsters. As he specifies that it works with the spell like ability -- not all such spell like abilities. Please note that the specific spell like ability in question has several points where it diverges from a 'normal' spell like ability already.

Quote:

These summon spells are considered to be part of his spell list for the purposes of spell trigger and spell completion items. In addition, he can expend uses of this ability to fufill the construction requirements of any magic item he creates, so long as he can use this ability to cast the required spell.

Last sentences from the specific spell like ability in question for reference.

You're splitting some mighty fine hairs. Read a few posts up in that second link I posted. This post for example:

Yes, actually. Unless the APG specifically says Augment Summoning does not apply, it does. SLAs function exactly like a spell in every respect except that they do not take up spell slots and do not have V/S/M/DF components.

Jason specifically agreed to what he was saying and said there was no need to argue because it worked, period. That was actually in the post Jason quoted and said was correct.

James Jacobs on Feats and Spell Like Abilities
"James, can you apply feats like Spell Focus to spell-like abilities since they are "like spells in every way" except where specifically noted?
Nope. Spell focus applies to spells...."

"What about feats like augment summoning to a summoner's spell-like ability to summon monsters?
Augment summoning only affects spells. Not a monster's special summon ability." - I think this one was a bit of a miss read by JJ - he didn't quite answer the asked question.

But in general - Spell Like Abilities are not spells and cannot be modified by feats that modify spells - making them less likely to ever be able to be used in place of spells for purposes of Feat prereqs.
(Yes I know of the specific example against this - the Summoners SLA of Summon Monster and Jason Bulmahn's quote that Augment Summoning does work with it)

Not that my opinion matters, but the wording in this instance is VERY explicit ...

------------------------

From the PRD:

Summon Monster I (Sp): Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier...

------------------------

The Summoner CASTS Summon Monster I, it's just cast as a SLA. When casting a spell as a SLA, it's primary benefit is no VSM and a short casting time. Nevertheless, it's casting the spell for all other intents and purposes.

So, yes, by RAW it is 'Augmentable'. I also firmly believe this is RAI with JB's take on it.

This is not exclusive to the Summoner and his SM ability, either. It appears in a handful of other classes.

That being said, if a feat prereq requires the ability to cast a particular spell, and a class feature allows that spell to be cast as a SLA, it qualifies by RAW, and, in my opinion, is RAI, as well.

Dimensional Agility requires the ability to cast dimension door.

A synthesist with Maker's Jump or an eidolon with the Dimension Door evolution can cast dimension door. Therefore, they meet the prerequisite for Dimensional Agility.

The spells vs. spell-like abilities debate is a red herring. Dimensional Agility's wording is very specific -- "cast dimension door" -- and these abilities are also very specific -- "cast dimension door". I don't see how it could be any clearer.

Shoot. I forgot about spell-like abilities. I was mostly thinking of abilities that acted like dimension door.

Fozbek is right. Everyone else is wrong. :P

(Seriously. I believe he is.)

Are people seriously saying a wizard can use Dimensional Agility, but a monk can't?

*cries*

Are people seriously saying a wizard can use Dimensional Agility, but a monk can't?

*cries*

Of course! Didn't you know the alternate title of Ultimate Combat is Wizard and Friends 2?

(after UM: Wizard and Friends 1)

Are people seriously saying a wizard can use Dimensional Agility, but a monk can't?

*cries*

That's not what I'm getting out of the discussion ..

*hands TOZ a tissue*

hmm, all the cool internet people are this thread now and yet nobody has any opinions on my silly House rules. Maybe, I should take the hint? =p (There's a link, somewhere in this post)

How about I just do you the favor of pointing out the FAQ?

Spell like abilities are not spells -- as the entry for spell like abilities specifically points out spell like abilities usually function like spells -- but that doesn't mean they are spells. Spell like abilities are activated for example instead of cast.

And Maker's jump specifically uses the word cast.

James Jacobs on Feats and Spell Like Abilities

"James, can you apply feats like Spell Focus to spell-like abilities since they are "like spells in every way" except where specifically noted?
Nope. Spell focus applies to spells...."

"What about feats like augment summoning to a summoner's spell-like ability to summon monsters?
Augment summoning only affects spells. Not a monster's special summon ability." - I think this one was a bit of a miss read by JJ - he didn't quite answer the asked question.

But in general - Spell Like Abilities are not spells and cannot be modified by feats that modify spells - making them less likely to ever be able to be used in place of spells for purposes of Feat prereqs.
(Yes I know of the specific example against this - the Summoners SLA of Summon Monster and Jason Bulmahn's quote that Augment Summoning does work with it)

Bulmahn overrules Jacobs on rules questions. James Jacobs has said so himself. He's not one of the rules gurus; anytime he comments on a rules question, it's just "this is how I would run it in my home game".

I'd follow Artanthos reading concerning "Maker's Jump". It specifically states: (...)the synthesist can CAST dimension door(...)

As the word "spell" does not appaer in the Dimensional Agility Feat Chain: (...)Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door (...), I see no room for interpretation here.

If the developers didn't want "Dimensional Agility" to function in concert with "Maker's Jump", at least, they did not write it down that way.

Putting this discussion aside, would you qualify for the Dimensional feats if you started play as a wordcaster (UM: words of power) and went for teleportation words? Since wordspells are cast just like normal spells, would the Dimensional Hop (or Jump/Shift/Gate) word be sufficient to qualify?

Putting this discussion aside, would you qualify for the Dimensional feats if you started play as a wordcaster (UM: words of power) and went for teleportation words? Since wordspells are cast just like normal spells, would the Dimensional Hop (or Jump/Shift/Gate) word be sufficient to qualify?

Word casting is a bit of an odd duck when it comes to qualifying for feats. The easy answer is to use the nearest available effect word and range. In this case a word that you can use to teleport up to medium range, which is equivalent to dimension door.

Well that's my take on it at least -- the finer the hair the more fun it is to cut in some ways.

However as to the word caster... I'm thinking, "No." Partly because the words are in general more powerful already and because those are not Dimensional Door at all since they have different names.

Dimensional Agility "Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door."

Maker's Jump (Sp): At 6th level, whenever the synthesist is fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can cast dimension door as a spell-like ability using his caster level. This ability only affects the fused synthesist and eidolon. The synthesist can use this ability once per day at 6th level, plus one additional time per day for every six levels beyond 6th. This ability replaces maker's call and transposition.

or

4-Point Evolutions
The following evolutions cost 4 points from the eidolon's evolution pool.

Dimension Door (Sp): An eidolon learns to cast dimension door as a spell-like ability once per day. The caster level for this evolution is equal to the eidolon's Hit Dice. The save DC for this spell is 10 + 1/2 the eidolon's HD + the eidolon's Charisma modifier. The eidolon must have a Charisma score of at least 14 to take this evolution. The summoner must be at least 13th level before selecting this evolution

Since the above SLA's specifically mention that they cast Dimension Door, they should be a way to qualify for the feat.

Trick question for you: Can a Cleric qualify for this feat?

Answer: A 7th level Cleric with the Travel Domain can, as he gets Dimension Door as a 4th level Domain spell.

@Abraham - Any particular reason beyond it not being explicitly in the rules that you feel that way?

Dimensional Agility requires the ability to cast dimension door.

OR the Monk's Abundant Step.

Those are the Three and ONLY Three ways to qualify. You're either an arcanist, a cleric with the Travel Domain spell Dimension Door, or a monk. And I believe that's not only the RAW, but the RAI of it as well.

Okie doke. So given all that, what's the cheapest way to be able to cast dimension door?

Scrolls work?

How can a rogue get access cheaply?

@Abraham - Any particular reason beyond it not being explicitly in the rules that you feel that way?

On the words of power? Personally I'm not too happy with them either -- I feel in many ways they are more powerful than they need to be, so I'm a bit biased -- however if you were playing in a word caster only campaign I wouldn't hold it against the players.