StevieV's page

The Synthesist Archtype just might points out the flaws in the Summoner class on it own if its apparent DPR is too high.

The damage comparison would be unfair; since of course a summoner with a weapon will deal more damage, generally speaking (the Eidilon is the source of all damage in both cases). The issue, then, is the vulnerability of the unsuited Summoner (the only real weakness of the summoner) relative to the borderline invulnerability of the suited. You are trading action economy for lowered vulnerability.

That being said, I'm only trying to see if being a Synthesist is a net gain or a net loss on DPR for the trading of the Action economy vs vulnerability. A Vanilla Summoner can get his own AC decent enough to survive at least a few hits and at level 14 onward to you to kill both to remove them as they can trade hp back and forth. I'm intrigued with quite a few builds where the Reg. Summoner rides his Eidolon into battle grabbing mounted combat feats. Though I'm unsure if that cause the Eidolon to lose out on its attacks and AoO's while being ridden.

Comparing a Vanilla Summoner to an Synthesist allows us to say where or not the Synthesist deserves features to ease usage of said class features to be on par with vanilla, balance of the Summoner versus other classes non-withstanding.

But I admit after reading more and more on Synthesist I think summoning monsters while the Eidolon is out is not in keeping with the Synthesist archtype. Synthesist's summon an outsider into themselves to be the frontline fighter themselves. They don't need to summon peons.

A more sane balanced Synthesist just might be found by reducing the AC the Fused Eidolon provides by half and increasing the speed you summon it at as you aren't fully summoning it to this plane.

If you wish to be extra tanky you should have to spend points and/or spell slots (evolution surge) to do so, it shouldn't be free.

Also allowing a limited amount of feats to be available only when fused just plain makes sense as melee characters get more feats, but may not be necessary.

But the only way for me to be sure of any of this to actually to get a chance to play one. My Magus is still going on strong though in my current campaign and is unlike to die unless I purposely jump him off a cliff. So it will be a bit.

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Thanks for the opinions.

Stat dumping like that would lead me as GM to harshly enforce encumbrance rules. It falls on the GM, to cowboy it up and stop obvious tomfoolery and that only applies in point buys rolled stats can won't have quite the same problems.

The math you have for your AC seems wrong.

10base+ 4 (eidolon suit)+ 2 nat armor (biped base)+improve nat Armor 2 + 2 dex + 2 shielded meld = 22

Not sure where you are getting the extra 4. If you want to add mage armor you go to 26 Ac and adding a shield spell gives you 2 more as it over writes the 2 shield bonus you get from shield meld with its own plus 4 bring you up to 28.

You can only take improve nat armor once per 5 levels you possess. So arguing the word meaning possess you can't get another 1 until level 6, best case or not another till level 10 worst case.

If you are right and you can stack another improved nat it will still bring you up to 30 but you have to burn 2 spells out of your 4 level 1 per day not counting bonus spells.

Also consider you can't walk around in Eidolon armor all day without some serious strange looks and it takes a full minute to summon it.

Having a negative con and dex modifier at min is just asking to roll another character after the surprise round, especially if you pissed off the GM with min/maxing.

As for spells you can cast as Synthesist. Those are the same as a regular Summoner and you can't cast and attack with an Eidolon in the same round.

However,
All that being said my focus was not stat-dumping and the evils of it.
It was DPR comparsion between a regular Summoner and Synthesist, to determine with or not the amount of DPR a Synthesist can do is comparable to regular Summoner and then perhaps compare that DPR to another hybird character such as a Magus or Druid.

I'm off to bed for now. But I shall return.
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Thank you for your valuable time.

Bear with my rambling a moment please. My thoughts don't alway flow together in a clear order.

The heart of most complaint I hear and read most about Synthesist is the AC is too high, but I'm unsure if a knee-jerk "nerf it" is required.

But as I understand it (and I may be wrong)the dmg and def of synthesist is the dmg and def of what a regular Eidolon could do -minus shielded meld and you have the additional of the a summoner casting and attacking separate.

The main benefit is applying enchanted items worn directly to the Synthesist without splitting between the two.

You 2 trade being able to control 2 characters 1 tough and 1 Squishy to be able to control only 1 tough character.

Instead of rolling init twice and perception twice you get once.

You also must pay a spell taxes to heal your Eidolon and to repair stat dmg as others can't do it for you (no spell effect Temp HP or Eidolon stats).

The hardship of not being able to stroll around in Eidolon suit without people staring and playing "Kill the Outsider" is really dependant on your GM.

The DPR of 2 characters (Summoner+Eidolon) on 1 character (Synthesist) is hard to balance.

Perhaps somebody good with math would like to stat up a regular Summoner versus a Synthesist at level 10 to mathify DPR? I'm horrible at it.
But if nobody volunteer's I may do it at my leisure and post here at some point. I'm currently juggling a full-time job and online classes so I can't say it will be this week. But will most likely be on my Saturday or Sunday (UTC+9:00)if I do.

The Synthesist Archtype just might points out the flaws in the Summoner class on it own if its apparent DPR is too high.

Finally as an ending note for outside of combat, regular Summoners already get access to a second character with 32 skills points at level 10 for you to place as you will. You also get to select 4 skills to be class skills and you can build a chatty and knowledgeable Eidolon who uses wands if you wish fairly easily and you can further supercharge that with the "Skilled" evo. Getting Skilled alone as a Synthesist and only while melded is much less powerful.
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Thanks for the opinions, Internet People.

I'll have to set aside some time to go thru that thread entirely.
But feel free to throw anyone of the topics addressed at me and I'll chop it up how I feel about it.

I'm game for debate anything related to Synthesist. I haven't played one yet but I'm intrigued.

Below I will address your concern in no particular order and in a mostly rambling manner.

The main problem with using Summon Eidolon, is it acts as a summoned creature and is blocked by "protection from" spells and of course it has a fairly short duration. The Synthesist's main thing is Fusing so I figure I want to get that out in combat more easily.

Fused Eidolon attunement aims to give the Synthesist the same benefit a druid does with their shape-shifting not provoking AoO and not having to wait 10 rounds to transform in combat as well as having the form last for virtually forever. Hour per level. Getting the transformation as a move action might be a little too much. How about this instead:

Fused Eidolon Attunement: As you grow in experience your mind and body adapt to channeling the planar energies need to bring forth your Fused Eidolon more swiftly. At 3rd level you gain the ability to summon your Fused Eidolon as a full round action. This swift inrush of energies cause you to lower your guard for a moment provoking attack from any threatening enemies.

Improved Fused Eidolon Attunement: At 6th level your skill in channeling planar energies improves allowing you to bring forth your Fused Eidolon as a Full round action that does not provoke or standard action that does as you open yourself to your Eidolon more swiftly.

Greater Fused Eidolon Attunement. At 11th level you have mastered the channeling of energies needed to bring forth your Eidolon. You can bring forth your Fused Eidolon as a standard action that does not provoke.

Currently, Summoner's get a special perk each level of some type.
With my changes that creates gaps in that. So perhaps Fusion Mastery should be altered a bit and renamed.

Fusion Efficiency: At 5th level your constant exposure to planar energies has increased your efficiency in manipulating them. While using the Fused Eidolon, class ability you gain the ability to cast summon monster with your extra outflow of summoning energies.

You are able to summon one creature at a time with summon monster while using your Fused Eidolon class ability, up to the highest level of summon monster you are capable of casting as a Full round action. You may summon this creature at lower level of summon monster if you so choose, as well, but the extra outflow is only capable of summoning 1 creature of any level. The duration of your summons while Fused Eidolon is active is only 3 rounds per 4 summoner levels and you may not use gate while using Fused Eidolon as normal and further Summon monster cannot remain active if you use the Split Form or Twin Ediolon ability as the increased focus needed instantly cancels the active summon monster. This ability improves at 7th level to an standard action and to a move action at 9th.

While Fused Eidolon is inactive Summon Monster acts as written in the Advanced Players guide, but activating Fused Eidolon cancel all active Summon Monsters as it disrupts the flow of energies.

Your Summon Monster level improves at each level as written in the Advanced Players guide.
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As for Summoning your Eidolon I believe it is a spell-like ability much like your summon monster ability is as a summoner.

Thanks for the opinion.

hmm, all the cool internet people are this thread now and yet nobody has any opinions on my silly House rules. Maybe, I should take the hint? =p (There's a link, somewhere in this post)

In short the message I'm getting that to get the feat itself you must have either Abundant Step or be able to cast Dimension Door. No shortcuts.

That's casual, depending on how you define the word "cast"

But the other half of my question is once you qualify for the feat and other feats down its chain, Dimensional Assault, Dervish and Savant can use them with spell like abilities, wands or staves?

Teleportation doesn't faze you after all.

Edit: Ack the answer is clearly written in the FAQ you linked.

Does using a potion, scroll, staff, or wand count as "casting a spell" for purposes of feats and special abilities like Augment Summoning, Spell Focus, an evoker's ability to do extra damage with evocation spells, bloodline abilities, and so on?
No. Unless they specifically state otherwise, feats and abilities that modify spells you cast only affect actual spellcasting, not using magic items that emulate spellcasting or work like spellcasting.

—Sean K Reynolds, 08/31/10 Back to Top

Now the moment of truth. Do I bring this to my GM's attention or to I continue to abuse his "houserules" =P

Thanks, Internet People.

And while I have your attention.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/houseRules/synthesistHouseRulesCheckMySanity

I'd appreicate a few thought on that as well.
Thank you in advance for your civil and insightful commentary. =P

Dimensional Agility "Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door."

In that language comes the opposing side arguement then as well once again. Cast dimension door, if you are using an Stave or wand to cast.
You are still casting. Is there direct language, that disallows this?

I feel as stated before, that this does not qualify but I'm not against abusing this slightly as my current GM allows it.

One more try for attention. Then we fade away to dust....

So this doesn't qualify?

Maker's Jump (Sp): At 6th level, whenever the synthesist is fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can cast dimension door as a spell-like ability using his caster level. This ability only affects the fused synthesist and eidolon. The synthesist can use this ability once per day at 6th level, plus one additional time per day for every six levels beyond 6th. This ability replaces maker's call and transposition.

or

4-Point Evolutions
The following evolutions cost 4 points from the eidolon's evolution pool.

Dimension Door (Sp): An eidolon learns to cast dimension door as a spell-like ability once per day. The caster level for this evolution is equal to the eidolon's Hit Dice. The save DC for this spell is 10 + 1/2 the eidolon's HD + the eidolon's Charisma modifier. The eidolon must have a Charisma score of at least 14 to take this evolution. The summoner must be at least 13th level before selecting this evolution.

Which is the basis for the disagreement, how many way's can you start the effect of Dimension Assault or Agility.

Hello, Everybody.

I invite anybody to share there opinions on the topics addressed below.
Thank you in advance for your civil and insightful commentary. =P

Does allowing a Synthesist to take 1 combat feat per four or possibly three summoner levels that eidolon qualifies for, that is effective only when using Fused Eidolon appear to be a balanced house-rule?

A Synthesist using the eidolon-suit the eidolon gains no feats or skills. The skills one I can see being extremely overpowered and thus removed. But the having no feats seems harsh as the summoner must burn feat slots AND qualify for feats to perform in combat and in most good campaigns ([personal bias) combat is only 40% of the focus, unless you're fighting a war. Since summoning an Eidolon takes a full minute and covers you in obvious magical umbra of awesome you won't walk around in unless your in McFunky McMage town or know in advance its time to crush heads, its harsh to penalize all of your other activities. With the feats limited to combat feats only it prevents in theory broken combo's and enhances only combat power.

I'm also considering for a replacing for the summon monster chain class ability with 2 other class abilities instead of allowing the Synthesist extra feats.

Fused Eidolon Attunement: As you grow in experience your mind and body adapt to channeling the planar energies need to bring forth your Fused Eidolon more swiftly. At 3rd level you gain the ability to summon your Fused Eidolon as a full round action that does not provoke AoO. This ability improves every 3 levels to a standard action at 6 level and a move action at 9 level.

Level 11 Class Ability

Fusion Mastery: You constant exposure to planar energies has increased your efficiency in manipulating them. While using the Fused Eidolon, class ability you gain the ability to cast summon monster with your extra outflow of summoning energies.

You are able to summon one creature at a time with summon monster while using your Fused Eidolon class ability, up to the highest level of summon monster you are capable of casting as a move action. You may summon this creature at lower level of summon monster if you so choose, as well, but the extra outflow is only capable of summoning 1 creature of any level. The duration of your summons while Fused Eidolon is active is only 1 minute per 4 summoner levels and you may not use gate while using Fused Eidolon as normal and further Summon monster cannot remain active if you use the Split Form or Twin Ediolon ability as the increased focus needed instantly cancels the active summon monster.
While Fused Eidolon is inactive Summon Monster acts as written in the Advanced Players guide, but activating Fused Eidolon cancel all active Summon Monsters as it disrupts the flow of energies.

Your Summon Monster level improves at each level as written in the Advanced Players guide.

Thoughts, Internet people?

I've fallen in love with the Synthesist concept after stumbling on it. While searching for info about Dimensional feat chain.
Since then,I have spent much time thinking about these options and tweaks for a Synthesist. I am a bit bias with my own ideas as many people are. But if you do not agree please provide an: "And this is why this is dumb" Or even an "Maybe think of this way instead"

I will most likely will attempt to play one in my next campaign.
For the next one I GM, I'm already drafting up a campigan with evil Synthesist group giving up there bodies and souls to outsiders that are intent on destroying linear time......

Hello, everybody.

I invite anybody to share there opinions on the topics addressed below.
Thank you in advance for your civil and insightful commentary. =P

1. Does the abilities that act as Dimension door, qualify as the pre-req to learn Dimensional Agility?

And in the same vein:

2. Do items (I.E wands/or staves)that allow the casting/or effect that acts as Dimension Door able to be used with the Dimensional agility chant of feats?

I've debated the issue both ways with GMs I've played with in that past and currently. My ruling (as a GM) is the first yes and the second no. My current GM stated he would allow the second but not the first.

Okay, thanks.

Hello, everybody.

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I invite anybody to share there opinions on the topics addressed below.
Thank you in advance for your civil and insightful commentary. =P

Regarding the Dimensional Agility chain and one Synthesist question that snuck in my brain that follows it, I have several questions, I have decided to post here for some reason early in my day here. I like many who have came before am curious because I'm currently playing a level 9 Magus that info is directly pertinent to in the next month of the current campaign.

1. Was the decision to classify the Dimensional chain as a general feats instead of a combat feats* or meta-magic feats** made specifically to limit the usage of Dimensional Savant to level 15+ characters?
*(such as the Nightmare fist chain)
**(as it directly effects the use of a spell)

As it is the only class that I can imagine with my limited ability, using it before 15 without cross classing is the Synthesist Summoner archetype.

A yes or no answer in this case would be okay (and hilarious). But, I was wondering if it was oversight or focused design decision to limit power.

2a. Does the abilities that act as Dimension door, qualify as the pre-req to learn Dimensional Agility?

And in the same vein:

2b. Do items (I.E wands/or staves)that allow the casting/or effect that acts as Dimension Door able to be used with the dimensional feats?

I've debated the issue both ways with GMs I've played with in that past and currently. My ruling (as a GM) is the first yes and the second no. My current GM stated he would allow the second but not the first.

And the Synthesist question

3.In your personal opinion, allowing a synthesist to take 1 combat feat per four summoner levels that eidolon qualifies for when effective only when using Fused Eidolon appear to be a balanced house-rule?

A Synthesist using the eidolon-suit the eidolon gains no feats or skills. The skills one I can see being extremely overpowered and thus removed. but the having no feats seems harsh as the summoner must burn feat slots AND qualify for feats to perform in combat and in most good campaigns ([personal bias) combat is only 40% of the focus, unless you're fighting a war.

I've fallen in love with the synthesist concept after reading about it in my search for info about Dimensional feat chain, I have spent much time thinking about the options and items for a summoner.I will most likely will attempt to play one in my next campaign.
For the next one I GM, I'm already drafting up a campigan with evil Synthesist group giving up there bodies and souls to outsiders that are intent on destroying linear time......