When Monks Use Medium BAB

From this post.

That is a fascinating hole in the rules. So really a Monk is only not full BAB when he is approaching a target or on an AoO. He can even make a full BAB single strike and break off.

Help me determine when a Monk uses his natural BAB.

1. AoOs.
2. When he can only take a standard action. (Usually after moving.)
3. When qualifying for feats.

Am I missing anything?

Charge Attack and Spring Attack (Which technically isn't a standard action)

When a monk decides he's going to take a standard action to attack and then move.

Which is of course exactly the same as taking a full Flurry attack, stopping after the first blow and moving. Which is why it's an obvious abuse of the rules.

I'd still house rule it away. Or house rule Monks to Full BAB.

I might allow it if he actually changes his plans due to circumstance, eg. actually dropping his target on the first strike and having no one else in reach, but not as regular usage.

Whirlwind Attack
All Ranged Attacks except throwing stars or Zen Archers
Ranged and Melee Touch attacks
Saves from feats that are based on BAB like the critical feats
Vital Strike feats

Yeah, nobody's arguing that it's not an 'abuse' thejeff, but it IS a part of the rules, and that's why its being discussed.

(And why many of us would rather either houserule the Monk to have real Full BAB or dump the Flurry Full BAB for something else.)

Yeah, nobody's arguing that it's not an 'abuse' thejeff, but it IS a part of the rules, and that's why its being discussed.

(And why many of us would rather either houserule the Monk to have real Full BAB or dump the Flurry Full BAB for something else.)

RAW or RAI?

I don't think one loophole is a reason to rewrite the way Flurry is intended to work. There may be other reasons for doing so, but you could fix this loophole by just changing Flurry to a Full round action rather than a full-attack action. No balance arguments everything else stays the same.

RAW or RAI?

I don't think one loophole is a reason to rewrite the way Flurry is intended to work. There may be other reasons for doing so, but you could fix this loophole by just changing Flurry to a Full round action rather than a full-attack action. No balance arguments everything else stays the same.

If we are talking about a simple change it would be a lot simpler overall to just give the monk full BAB as it removes a lot of "if" questions about whether it's full BAB or not.

Thematically monk should be full BAB, mechanically it's easier if it's full BAB (and probably more balanced in my opinion). The monk does have a lot of neat abilities, but they also accept a number of disadvantages to start with that other classes don't. This means they should naturally have "more" abilities than others.

Bah, Paizo should have adressed that before making core rulebook, they have a wishy-washy bab, makes things worse, just let them have full bab, simplifies everything!

1. AoOs.

2. When he takes a standard action.
3. When qualifying for feats. (And determining feat effects when not flurrying.)
4. When using non-Monk weapons.
5. Special action attacks. (Whirlwind, Charge, Spring Attack.)
6. Touch attacks. (When not part of a flurry.)

Saves from feats that are based on BAB like the critical feats

Only when not flurrying.

Not that they would do it often because of comparitively superior options, but a monk also uses their 3/4 BAB when using a non-monk weapon for a full attack - such as an Elven Monk (not a Zen archer) using a longbow for a full attack, or any monk deciding to wield a great sword (as far as I know that never ends up flurry-able).

Hence why I just added 'uses non-monk weapons'.

TOZ wrote:

1. AoOs.

2. When he takes a standard action.
3. When qualifying for feats. (And determining feat effects when not flurrying.)
4. When using non-Monk weapons.
5. Special action attacks. (Whirlwind, Charge, Spring Attack.)
6. Touch attacks. (When not part of a flurry.)

Looks like the monk is designed to have med BAB most of the time and that full BAB is the exception - as it should be.

Subtle. You should post it in the "What are things you think others don't know?" thread.

And that's two people who aren't helping make a comprehensive, helpful list.

Edit: Good call Cheapy.

And that's two people who aren't helping make a comprehensive, helpful list.

Edit: Good call Cheapy.

Just noting that your list is looking like "everywhere but full attacks with monk weapons/unarmed".

Going for conciseness. Would you like to expand it to list every single action?

It's too late for me to edit the thread title, but we could just go down the list of every action involving BAB and determine which BAB the monk uses for it.

TOZ wrote:

And that's two people who aren't helping make a comprehensive, helpful list.

Edit: Good call Cheapy.

Just noting that your list is looking like "everywhere but full attacks with monk weapons/unarmed".

We get it, you think the monk is fine the way he is. Thanks.

BiggDawg wrote:

Saves from feats that are based on BAB like the critical feats

Only when not flurrying.

Wow, flurry of blows is even more convoluted than I thought it was. Pathfinder 1.5 needs to scrap it.

They don't use full BAB when swinging a duck over their head. Add that one to the list.

The important thing is that they use it for the most relevant combat action of all, one that overshadows all the others in importance. It turns everything else into a corner case as the goal is almost always to flurry and single attacks result if the monk happens to be unable to flurry for some reason.

Oh, also I think their CMD is based on medium BAB as well. Maneuver training is on CMB only.

We get it, you think the monk is fine the way he is. Thanks.

Thank you. I made a new thread to avoid the argument about changing it in the first place.

Oh, also I think their CMD is based on medium BAB as well. Maneuver training is on CMB only.

I always forget that one!

Thank you. I made a new thread to avoid the argument about changing it in the first place.

Okay, that wasn't clear. It looked to me like yet another thread in the flood of threads that have recently popped up about what the monk should be.

Sorry.

To resist a feint attempt and qualify for PrCs.
EDIT: and fire with a catapult.

The important thing is that they use it for the most relevant combat action of all, one that overshadows all the others in importance. It turns everything else into a corner case as the goal is almost always to flurry and single attacks result if the monk happens to be unable to flurry for some reason.

Another post which isn't about creating such a list.

And, no, the only time the goal is 'almost always to flurry' is in really poorly done theorycrafting - the kind of theorycrafting which values only a character's ability to do damage.

To resist a feint attempt and qualify for PrCs.

The prestige class one hurts too. It's the difference between getting the prestige capstone or just falling short in most campaigns.

While kinda off topic, it should be noted that classes which have med BAB get more relative utility out of anything which grants integer bonuses to hit than classes which get high BAB.

As such (and, yes, I realize this is a bit abstract, its much clearer with a mathematical model), the monk's natural BAB is relevant to the total utility of any such buffs, particulary since the monk will use its med BAB while doing most things which require BAB .

To resist a feint attempt and qualify for PrCs.

EDIT: and fire with a catapult.

Well catapults don't have high ACs so you should be able to set fire to it pretty easily, no matter what your BAB is.

However, when shooting a catapult, they use medium BAB.

From this post.

kyrt-ryder wrote:

That is a fascinating hole in the rules. So really a Monk is only not full BAB when he is approaching a target or on an AoO. He can even make a full BAB single strike and break off.

Help me determine when a Monk uses his natural BAB.

1. AoOs.
2. When he can only take a standard action. (Usually after moving.)
3. When qualifying for feats.

Am I missing anything?

The full BAB is also not used for CMD. I think it overly complicates things to have it for CMB, but not CMD though.

Maybe if we FAQ it, it'll get a response. It does seem unintentionally complicated.

Maybe if we FAQ it, it'll get a response. It does seem unintentionally complicated.

I was not saying it is not the intended rule. I am sure it is. I was just saying I don't like it.

Cheapy wrote:

Maybe if we FAQ it, it'll get a response. It does seem unintentionally complicated.

I was not saying it is not the intended rule. I am sure it is. I was just saying I don't like it.

I wasn't responding to anyone, just stating something. Sorry for the confusion.