has it been announced (and I just missed it) when this will be coming out?
I'm looking to start organizing a campaign for it and it would be really invaluable!
Thanks!
No official date, however I would expect it by Aug. 4.
Creative Director
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has it been announced (and I just missed it) when this will be coming out?
I'm looking to start organizing a campaign for it and it would be really invaluable!
Thanks!
All Players' Guides come out relatively close (within a week) of the first AP volume coming out. In this case, that means within a week of the first day of Gen Con.
I have my copy of the Brine Wall Legacy in PDF now but I can't find the Players Guide. Has this been released yet?
The Player's Guide will be up later this afternoon. :)
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The Player's Guide will be up later this afternoon. :)What is this "afternoon" you're speaking about, Pacific Coast resident? Because over here just shy of Greenwich it's firm midnight, mate! :)
Afternoon is that most wonderful time in the day where it's not too hot and not too cool.
But that's Northern California Afternoon and does not apply anywhere but here.
We poked it a bit too much. It's now available :)
Am I the only one that found the Caravan guard trait a bit weak compared to the other traits?
Caravan Guard:
You recently hired on to Sandru’s caravan to serve as a guard, but the job, while it paid well, gave you little chance
to scratch the adventuring itch, since
the caravan never really ventured into dangerous territory.
You understand why Sandru avoided the more dangerous
routes, of course, but that didn’t help assuage your urge
to seek adventure. You’ve just told Sandru that you’re
quitting the job in order to try your hand at adventuring—
he seemed to understand, and even gave you some good
tips on how best to survive potential challenges. You gain
a +1 trait bonus on Survival checks, and Survival becomes
a class skill for you. NPC Choices: Sandru.
All the other traits grants additional stuff like +1 on attack rolls to defend a specific npc or in case of a couple of the feats a skill bonus of +2 to a specific skill and making that skill a class skill. That is twice the bonus that the caravan guard traits gives. What was the designer's reason to make this trait worse than the other ones? I know none of my player's would want to take this feat when the others offer so much more.
On another note; The rest of the player's guide was awesome, maybe the best player's guide yet.
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Am I the only one that found the Caravan guard trait a bit weak compared to the other traits?
Caravan Guard:
You recently hired on to Sandru’s caravan to serve as a guard, but the job, while it paid well, gave you little chance
to scratch the adventuring itch, since
the caravan never really ventured into dangerous territory.
You understand why Sandru avoided the more dangerous
routes, of course, but that didn’t help assuage your urge
to seek adventure. You’ve just told Sandru that you’re
quitting the job in order to try your hand at adventuring—
he seemed to understand, and even gave you some good
tips on how best to survive potential challenges. You gain
a +1 trait bonus on Survival checks, and Survival becomes
a class skill for you. NPC Choices: Sandru.All the other traits grants additional stuff like +1 on attack rolls to defend a specific npc or in case of a couple of the feats a skill bonus of +2 to a specific skill and making that skill a class skill. That is twice the bonus that the caravan guard traits gives. What was the designer's reason to make this trait worse than the other ones? I know none of my player's would want to take this feat when the others offer so much more.
On another note; The rest of the player's guide was awesome, maybe the best player's guide yet.
Possibly due to the character quitting the job, so he's got no real strong attachment to Sandru?
I agree though, amazing guide. My one worry(?) is the relationship experience. I've known Paizo to say they base things on all party members gaining the same XP, and after some serious issues, that's something I strongly hold to, even if someone is away for a session or so. If someone is not as willing, or even if their character is not as outgoing as another one (very likely and probable) then character levels and XP could potentially get out of whack quickly. Sure, the XP isn't that much in and of itself, but when comparing playstyles/character attitudes, it could turn into something big. I don't want someone at level 8 with others at 5 again...
The caravan setting is EXACTLY what I've been wanting for a long time -- a PC base that moves with them. It's been a problem with earlier APs that took care to give the PCs strong ties to a starting town and then took them away, sometimes never to return.
But how will this mix with the (presumed) ultimate goal of getting Ameiko to Tian Xa and putting her on the throne of Minkai? How much will the caravan system be involved with the end of the AP and whatever massive political squabbles the heroes get into?
Just saying I hope it doesn't get dropped entirely toward the end.
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I don't want someone at level 8 with others at 5 again...
RS 6 - 400/200xp
RS 12- 1200/600xp
RS 31- 3200/1600xp
In the scope of the first adv only levels 3 and 4 or possible for a RS+.
So lets max this out,
for everyone - assume +5 cha, +2 from gift/insult (because you roll 20s all the time)
for one - +1x2 from levels, +4 trait
4 stat'd npcs at 7, so 1600xp
trait and a level get that 7 to 12 for one, so 1200
At the end of the first adv, 2800xp if you really really milk it.
from there you need to do the gift +2s per level. And try to get the party to recruit as many npcs as possible, as early in level as possible (for more gift oppurtunities). generally putting your levels into one person.
So everyone gets +2 a level and one person gets +3.
Assuming you are asking everyone possible to join you, they would start at the begging of the next adv, so I'll add them in a third //
level - rank possible
4 - 13/7/5
5 - 17/9/7 (found a +2 cha item)(400xp from the new guys)
6 - 20/11/9
I think the gap between rs12 and rs31 really stunts this. Exp from pick-ups becomes negligible. the biggest thing is the early campaign, and that's if you are really really milking it.
if the staggered exp prospect haunts you, then simply don't do the exp (the bonuses are still nice).
I am wrapping up council of thieves now, and I've been doing levels ups by fiat when the adv says they should be leveling. It works great, but feels a bit impersonal. so I look forward to seeing my players track their own exps (instead of one person being the party secretary for loot/xp/notes).
I'm more concerned about involving everyone in caravan mechanics. The system seems to encourage one person to handle the caravan documentation. It seems like this would play out as one person in his/her own game for parts of the game.
This could be avoided I suppose by assigning tasks to different people. Resolve ,attack, security; so three possible types of rolls. With one person managing the papers that's 4 jobs.
At my table I foresee the discussion of where we go and what we buy taking a bigger part of our time than the encounters themselves; which is fine, we love that.
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Since the awards are codified in the player's guide I don't think most players are going to have a problem with it. Everyone knows ahead of time that building relationships means more XP, which you won't get it if you don't participate. NPC relationships are obviously an important part of the AP, so players who don't want to get involved probably aren't a good fit.
But, I don't feel XP awards are the best motivator anyways. I think I'll be handing out hero points, or plot twist cards, or something similarly exciting yet temporary.
I have to say, those caravan rules are pretty snazzy.
I love stuff like that.
The relationship scale is also very interesting.
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Creative Director
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Am I the only one that found the Caravan guard trait a bit weak compared to the other traits?
All the other traits grants additional stuff like +1 on attack rolls to defend a specific npc or in case of a couple of the feats a skill bonus of +2 to a specific skill and making that skill a class skill. That is twice the bonus that the caravan guard traits gives. What was the designer's reason to make this trait worse than the other ones? I know none of my player's would want to take this feat when the others offer so much more.
On another note; The rest of the player's guide was awesome, maybe the best player's guide yet.
Not all traits are intended to be equal to everyone. If you're playing a character who isn't as into combat as he is into Survival, Caravan Guard is a great choice. You can only pick one of them, after all, so if some of them don't seem as good to any one player, that's fine.
But also: the traits are meant to be a sort of subliminal guidance system for PCs. If you see something like "You gain a bonus to Survival and it's a class skill," you might not think that's worth a trait, but you'll note that we're specifically saying something to the effect of, "Survival is probably a skill you should think about having someone in the party be good at."
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Creative Director
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I agree though, amazing guide. My one worry(?) is the relationship experience. I've known Paizo to say they base things on all party members gaining the same XP, and after some serious issues, that's something I strongly hold to, even if someone is away for a session or so. If someone is not as willing, or even if their character is not as outgoing as another one (very likely and probable) then character levels and XP could potentially get out of whack quickly. Sure, the XP isn't that much in and of itself, but when comparing...
If you have players who miss a session now and then, that'll impact XP a lot more than individual relationship XP awards.
That said... if it worries you, there's no reason why you can't give the XP to everyone in a party when one of the PCs starts a relationship. That way as one person strengthens the bonds between the party and the NPCs, everyone gets rewarded.
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Creative Director
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The caravan setting is EXACTLY what I've been wanting for a long time -- a PC base that moves with them. It's been a problem with earlier APs that took care to give the PCs strong ties to a starting town and then took them away, sometimes never to return.
But how will this mix with the (presumed) ultimate goal of getting Ameiko to Tian Xa and putting her on the throne of Minkai? How much will the caravan system be involved with the end of the AP and whatever massive political squabbles the heroes get into?
Just saying I hope it doesn't get dropped entirely toward the end.
It won't
There's one adventure in the six where the caravan elements are VERY important, but there'll be caravan elements in all six adventures. Some more than others.
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I agree though, amazing guide. My one worry(?) is the relationship experience. I've known Paizo to say they base things on all party members gaining the same XP, and after some serious issues, that's something I strongly hold to, even if someone is away for a session or so. If someone is not as willing, or even if their character is not as outgoing as another one (very likely and probable) then character levels and XP could potentially get out of whack quickly. Sure, the XP isn't that much in and of itself, but when comparing...If you have players who miss a session now and then, that'll impact XP a lot more than individual relationship XP awards.
That said... if it worries you, there's no reason why you can't give the XP to everyone in a party when one of the PCs starts a relationship. That way as one person strengthens the bonds between the party and the NPCs, everyone gets rewarded.
But it doesn't affect XP from missing a session, because I keep XP equal across the board. As long as the prior session didn't end mid-encounter, it's easy to figure out an in-game 'reason' they weren't there, and tie that in to something that could equate to their share of the XP. This is set to give XP out differently to each person, and I noticed it even brings that up in the caravan leveling rules.
Granting the XP to the party certainly is an option. I also thought about giving out Hero Points in lieu of the XP reward.
In any case, I applaud Paizo's finding an across the board meaningful use for Charisma. I'm sure there will still be people who dump it, but it's no longer such a free dump stat. Kudos!
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Creative Director
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But it doesn't affect XP from missing a session, because I keep XP equal across the board. As long as the prior session didn't end mid-encounter, it's easy to figure out an in-game 'reason' they weren't there, and tie that in to something that could equate to their share of the XP. This is set to give XP out differently to each person, and I noticed it even brings that up in the caravan leveling rules.
Granting the XP to the party certainly is an option. I also thought about giving out Hero Points in lieu of the XP reward.
In any case, I applaud Paizo's finding an across the board meaningful use for Charisma. I'm sure there will still be people who dump it, but it's no longer such a free dump stat. Kudos!
Well... you're already running XP differently than the core rules expect. So you should have no problem just rolling those relationship XP into party awards, yeah?
In any event, the whole point of giving out XP for the relationships is to both reward players who get into the roleplay side of things and to encourage those who normally DON'T roleplay much to give it a try. Replacing XP with some other reward like Hero Points is fine.
Fair enough, but shouldn't there be some mechanical reason to choose one trait over another? Why would I ever take Caravan Guard over Student Survivalist?
From my POV, because Traits in general, and Campaign Traits in particular, are more than mere mechanics. They help define your character and her or his background. I could easily see a character I create taking Caravan Guard over Student Survivalist because that's how I see my character. He was a guard in a caravan, not some wilderness survivalist out living off the land. (Heck, what sort of life is that? You start talking to trees and bunnies!) (Last part's a joke, btw..:)
My two coppers...
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Creative Director
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Fair enough, but shouldn't there be some mechanical reason to choose one trait over another? Why would I ever take Caravan Guard over Student Survivalist?
Personal preference—that's pretty much it. If two traits are mechanically identical, you should pick the one that comes with the flavor text that's more fun for you.
(Also, remember that you can't take multiple traits from the same category.)
Fair enough, but shouldn't there be some mechanical reason to choose one trait over another? Why would I ever take Caravan Guard over Student Survivalist?
As James said, not all campaign traits are created equal; the Caravan Guard trait provides an option for folks who aren't all that interested in participating in the whole NPC-attachment side of the AP while subtly steering people toward that side of play. Most Adventure Paths have what I suppose you could call an 'optimal' style of play for the material, and this one has long been stated as the one that will involve significant relationships with NPCs.
Encouraging people towards that play style is something that Paizo can do with campaign traits without adversely affecting players--after all, if as a player you really aren't interested, they can just choose both their traits from the APG.
Quite aside from that, if all the players at a given table aren't interested in building relationships with NPCs, in my opinion it's the GM's job to come up with an alternative. After all, the role of the GM isn't to read slavishly from the Adventure Path text, it's to entertain his or her players. If that entertainment doesn't involve NPCs, then the GM should be looking for alternatives. It's not like there aren't enough other traits in the APG to go around. : )
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Creative Director
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Quite aside from that, if all the players at a given table aren't interested in building relationships with NPCs, in my opinion it's the GM's job to come up with an alternative. After all, the role of the GM isn't to read slavishly from the Adventure Path text, it's to entertain his or her players. If that entertainment doesn't involve NPCs, then the GM should be looking for alternatives. It's not like there aren't enough other traits in the APG to go around. : )
Actually, since the NPCs are such a key part of the plot of Jade Regent, I'd suggest that if the players aren't interested in them, the GM should strongly consider running a different Adventure Path.
Fair enough, but shouldn't there be some mechanical reason to choose one trait over another? Why would I ever take Caravan Guard over Student Survivalist?Personal preference—that's pretty much it. If two traits are mechanically identical, you should pick the one that comes with the flavor text that's more fun for you.
(Also, remember that you can't take multiple traits from the same category.)
But they aren't mechanically identical. Student Survivalist is absolutely superior.
Caravan Guard: You recently hired on to Sandru’s
caravan to serve as a guard, but the job, while it paid well,
gave you little chance to scratch the adventuring itch, since
the caravan never really ventured into dangerous territory.
You understand why Sandru avoided the more dangerous
routes, of course, but that didn’t help assuage your urge
to seek adventure. You’ve just told Sandru that you’re
quitting the job in order to try your hand at adventuring—
he seemed to understand, and even gave you some good
tips on how best to survive potential challenges. You gain
a +1 trait bonus on Survival checks, and Survival becomes
a class skill for you. NPC Choices: Sandru.Student Survivalist: Although she is seen as something
of a mystery to most of Sandpoint’s citizens, Shalelu has
never really seemed all that mysterious to you. Of course,
that’s probably because she helped raise you. You have
never quite figured out why Shalelu decided to treat you
as a younger sibling, but you certainly appreciated it—
and you eagerly absorbed all of the survivalist tricks that
she showed you over the years. As a result, you gain a +2
trait bonus on all Survival checks, and Survival is a class
skill for you. In addition, you gain a +1 trait bonus on all
attack rolls against foes that threaten your mentor. NPC
Choices: Shalelu.
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Creative Director
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But they aren't mechanically identical. Student Survivalist is absolutely superior.
That's actually an error then, and one that probably should have been caught in the development of the Player's Guide. But it wasn't.
Try this revised version of Student Survivalist, then:
Student Survivalist: Although she is seen as something of a mystery to most of Sandpoint’s citizens, Shalelu has never really seemed all that mysterious to you. Of course, that’s probably because she helped raise you. You have never quite figured out why Shalelu decided to treat you
as a younger sibling, but you certainly appreciated it— and you eagerly absorbed all of the tricks that she showed you over the years on how to fight more effectively against one type of creature. Pick one creature type from the list of favored enemies available to rangers. You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against that creature type. In addition, you gain a +1 trait bonus on all attack rolls against foes that threaten your mentor. NPC Choices: Shalelu.
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Try this revised version of Student Survivalist, then:
Or how about an alternate version of Caravan Guard?
Caravan Guard: You recently hired on to Sandru’s caravan to serve as a guard, but the job, while it paid well, gave you little chance to scratch the adventuring itch, since the caravan never really ventured into dangerous territory. You understand why Sandru avoided the more dangerous routes, of course, but that didn’t help assuage your urge to seek adventure. You’ve just told Sandru that you’re quitting the job in order to try your hand at adventuring—he seemed to understand, and even gave you some good tips on how best to survive potential challenges. Choose Offense or Security. You grant any caravan you travel on a +1 trait bonus to that score, regardless of your job role. In addition, you gain a +1 trait bonus on Survival checks. NPC Choices: Sandru.
This has the advantage of not changing the flavour of either Caravan Guard or Student Survivalist, without putting them in direct competition--Student Survivalist is still the go-to trait if you want to be really good at Survival, whether or not you actually have it as a class skill. Hard to say if the caravan bonus is too good without having seen the whole campaign, but I'm betting it's okay; the system should be able to handle an extra +1 over the cap.
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Let me start by saying that I believe this PG to be very very good and full of interesting mechanics. Congratulations to those involved, even though it will make my tenure as a GM rather more complicated.
Concerning the above debate, the main issue I have with Caravan Guard is that it is just bland, as opposed to all the other traits which are full of life and excitement. It is also mechanically inferior as stated by several posters.
The alternate Student Survivalist sounds a bit too good (at least for combat monsters) and weird because I feel that it loses the Survival feel for a "kill'em all" one, so I probably won't use it in my game.
I hope that James can give us his opinion on the alternate Caravan Guard proposed by LeadPal as to whether the proposed bonus is balanced or not. It does have a much better feeling that the original version though (makes sense with both the AP and the name of the trait).
Otherwise, I will likely give the Caravan Guard a +1 trait bonus and class skill to Perception and a +1 to attacks against foes that threaten the caravan (the gathering of vehicles, mounts and people, not the community of PCs and NPCs).
I would like to have some opinion on this proposal too. It feels balanced to me (reduced skill bonus but larger application of the bonus to attack) but I might be greatly wrong.
Concerning the rest of the PG, I love the idea of getting benefits from strong relations with the NPCs. I loved the boons in Smuggler's Shiv. I will have to think on how I can reinforce this in this AP, since we do not really consider XP in my group.
I like thebwt and Zaranorth suggestions too. I just will have to check with my group how they would prefer to play this AP.
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Creative Director
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Try this revised version of Student Survivalist, then:Or how about an alternate version of Caravan Guard?
Caravan Guard: You recently hired on to Sandru’s caravan to serve as a guard, but the job, while it paid well, gave you little chance to scratch the adventuring itch, since the caravan never really ventured into dangerous territory. You understand why Sandru avoided the more dangerous routes, of course, but that didn’t help assuage your urge to seek adventure. You’ve just told Sandru that you’re quitting the job in order to try your hand at adventuring—he seemed to understand, and even gave you some good tips on how best to survive potential challenges. Choose Offense or Security. You grant any caravan you travel on a +1 trait bonus to that score, regardless of your job role. In addition, you gain a +1 trait bonus on Survival checks. NPC Choices: Sandru.
This has the advantage of not changing the flavour of either Caravan Guard or Student Survivalist, without putting them in direct competition--Student Survivalist is still the go-to trait if you want to be really good at Survival, whether or not you actually have it as a class skill. Hard to say if the caravan bonus is too good without having seen the whole campaign, but I'm betting it's okay; the system should be able to handle an extra +1 over the cap.
I didn't provide an alternate version for Caravan Guard because that trait is actually spot on, power wise, for a trait. The Student Survivalist trait is a bit TOO good for a trait.
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Creative Director
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Concerning the above debate, the main issue I have with Caravan Guard is that it is just bland, as opposed to all the other traits which are full of life and excitement. It is also mechanically inferior as stated by several posters.
I actually don't mind if someone thinks a particular trait is bland, since there's guaranteed to be someone out there who thinks the trait is perfect. My only concern with this one is that it's so obviously not as good as a similar trait.
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I didn't provide an alternate version for Caravan Guard because that trait is actually spot on, power wise, for a trait. The Student Survivalist trait is a bit TOO good for a trait.
Don't forget that Student Survivalist is not the only +2/class skill/situational attack bonus trait in the guide--there's also Best Friend and Foster Child. In fact, every trait in the guide save Caravan Guard is more powerful than its direct equivalent.
But that's good, really. Campaign traits should be strong enough that players are excited to take them, and thus tie their characters into the story. It's more important to balance the traits against each other than against normal ones, and except for Caravan Guard, I think the current selection does a decent job of that.
EDIT: If there's any trait in the guide that's too good, it's Friend of the Family; Perception is just that valuable. I might bring it down to a +1 only on checks made to determine surprise, making it similar to Militant Merchant.
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Creative Director
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I dont want to be "That Guy" but it may be worth redoing the Player Guide PDF (its not in print so its not gonna kill you to edit it) to fix the Student Survivalist thing.
If its a mistake and it can be fixed, why not fix it?
Because in the grand scheme of things, I don't want to get into the habit of tinkering with things once they see print.
And honestly, what I'd probably do if I DID do that would be to boost the caravan feat a little. Campaign Traits are kind of supposed to be better than most other traits, as a subliminal way to encourage players to make sure they take one of those as their two choices.
If it ends up that very few people take the Caravan feat... I'm okay with that. Especially since there are more campaign traits in this Player's Guide than any we've done, I believe.
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To prevent any of my over-opportunistic players from having the wrong idea, I already stated that any Sibling will be adopted whatever his/her race.
This should prevent any "unfortunate accident" happening to Ameiko when her brother/sister realizes what s/he stands to inherit.
I think I will waive this for half-orc and half-elf Siblings though, as I believe that Minkai's laws on inheritance likely place the utmost importance on the purity of the blood and thus will never stoop to considering a bastard half-blood as a legitimate heir.
Because in the grand scheme of things, I don't want to get into the habit of tinkering with things once they see print.
And honestly, what I'd probably do if I DID do that would be to boost the caravan feat a little. Campaign Traits are kind of supposed to be better than most other traits, as a subliminal way to encourage players to make sure they take one of those as their two choices.
If it ends up that very few people take the Caravan feat... I'm okay with that. Especially since there are more campaign traits in this Player's Guide than any we've done, I believe.
James, You speak of a feat called Caravan that can apparently be taken by characters.
Though I saw a whole table of Caravan feats (which can be taken by Caravans), I did not find in the Guide a feat for PCs called Caravan.
Where can we find this feat ?
I think he means the Caravan Guard trait actually, if one is to go by the discussion in this thread.
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Creative Director
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To prevent any of my over-opportunistic players from having the wrong idea, I already stated that any Sibling will be adopted whatever his/her race.
This should prevent any "unfortunate accident" happening to Ameiko when her brother/sister realizes what s/he stands to inherit.
I think I will waive this for half-orc and half-elf Siblings though, as I believe that Minkai's laws on inheritance likely place the utmost importance on the purity of the blood and thus will never stoop to considering a bastard half-blood as a legitimate heir.
Because in the grand scheme of things, I don't want to get into the habit of tinkering with things once they see print.
And honestly, what I'd probably do if I DID do that would be to boost the caravan feat a little. Campaign Traits are kind of supposed to be better than most other traits, as a subliminal way to encourage players to make sure they take one of those as their two choices.
If it ends up that very few people take the Caravan feat... I'm okay with that. Especially since there are more campaign traits in this Player's Guide than any we've done, I believe.
James, You speak of a feat called Caravan that can apparently be taken by characters.
Though I saw a whole table of Caravan feats (which can be taken by Caravans), I did not find in the Guide a feat for PCs called Caravan.
Where can we find this feat ?
You can't find the feat. It doesn't exist. I meant to say "trait," as in "Caravan Guard" trait, but messed it up.
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You can't find the feat. It doesn't exist. I meant to say "trait," as in "Caravan Guard" trait, but messed it up.
Thank you for the clarification. Can you please post the boosted version of this trait that you would have imagined ?
I would love to make it available to my players.
Thanks for all the good work BTW, including all the info you are providing with all your posts on the Jade Regent AP.