Reign of Winter Player's Guide

See, soon. Just like I told ya! :)

Fantastic!!! Heading over to DLs now...

[LATER - Woooowwwwww! Fantastic Adam! Great, no beautiful art, fantastic layout! Love the cover!

Puffins and ptarmigans and other arctic/cold weather familiars. Hex nails. Ice skates and other arctic gear. And the Winter Witch as an archetype AND a prestige class! So brave! So......cool! This is the sign of a great developer. Very nice. I await the AP with hoary breath!!! :)]

[Another EDIT: loved the "the nature of spoilers" stuff.]

Can't wait until my lunch break.

Hmmm. Stats for an arctic tern, eh?

Hum.... I have to admit that I am confused. This player guide strongly suggest us to create characters with a cold/winter flavor. Yay! I'm excited.... until I read about the characters starting the adventure almost in Qadira, being a traveler or most likely a resident of this 171 souls village. I am finding very unlikely that this small village very much to the South would have artic druids PCs or winter witches PCs. The same goes for the campaign traits. Why are people near Qadira obsessed with cold magic and the far North? Seriously, I want to create a character with much winter flavor but unless I am missing something, it is not realistic at all.

My ideal party:

Gretel - Female Human Winter Witch
Hansel - Male Human Witch Hunter Inquisitor
Big Jock - Gnome Titan Mauler Barbarian
Medium Jock - Gnome Experimental Gunsmith (Gunslinger)
Wee Jock - Gnome Prankster Bard

if you're playing with six then I'd probably add

Not Quite as Big as Medium Jock But Not Quite As Wee As Wee Jock Jock - Gnome Arctic Druid.

Hum.... I have to admit that I am confused. This player guide strongly suggest us to create characters with a cold/winter flavor. Yay! I'm excited.... until I read about the characters starting the adventure almost in Qadira, being a traveler or most likely a resident of this 171 souls village. I am finding very unlikely that this small village very much to the South would have artic druids PCs or winter witches PCs. The same goes for the campaign traits. Why are people near Qadira obsessed with cold magic and the far North? Seriously, I want to create a character with much winter flavor but unless I am missing something, it is not realistic at all.

They talk quite a bit about that in the guide. Partly it's suggested metagaming, as they clearly state. The campaign traits all give reasons for characters to be interested in the cold or the North.

Generally looks cool - I like the advice section at least and the traits seem fun.

However, are the descriptions for the equipment list missing some entries? Just seems a bit weird that only three items have descriptions, one of which is "firewood", while things like "frost ward gel" aren't given any description.

Generally looks cool - I like the advice section at least and the traits seem fun.

However, are the descriptions for the equipment list missing some entries? Just seems a bit weird that only three items have descriptions, one of which is "firewood", while things like "frost ward gel" aren't given any description.

The only things given descriptions were things that couldn't be found on the PRD (like frost ward gel)or items that had something added or changed from the original, like the firewood example.

They talk quite a bit about that in the guide. Partly it's suggested metagaming, as they clearly state. The campaign traits all give reasons for characters to be interested in the cold or the North.

You can also assume that, when the game starts, it's the locals interested in those things who wind up investigating the mysterious Winter effects and get drawn into the adventure.

I joked about including a reskin of the Rich Parents trait, but calling it Summer Home or Snowbirds. :)

Hmm... so when can I use these new familiars in PFS?

heh, lemming

Lemming, lemming, lemming of the BDA.
Lemming, lemming, lemming of the BD, Lemming of the BD
Lemming of the BDA~aa.

it's a man's life in the British dental association.

when this AP was announced all my players wanted to play winter witches and arctic druids and fur wearing barbarians..... but we start in southern taldor....WHAT THE... talk about a let down.... I'm Really ticked.

when this AP was announced all my players wanted to play winter witches and arctic druids and fur wearing barbarians..... but we start in southern taldor....WHAT THE... talk about a let down.... I'm Really ticked.

We've known this for at least a month now. The guide talks about it. The traits encourage winter witches, artic druids and all the trimmings.

The hook is that you play a character living in the south, but tied to the North in someway, by heritage or just strong inclination.

I also suspect, though I haven't seen the first book yet, that it wouldn't be too hard to reflavor the start to somewhere in the North, with the hook being unnatural cold starting in the summer, rather than too far south.

when this AP was announced all my players wanted to play winter witches and arctic druids and fur wearing barbarians..... but we start in southern taldor....WHAT THE... talk about a let down.... I'm Really ticked.

What Jeff said above.

Pendagast wrote:

when this AP was announced all my players wanted to play winter witches and arctic druids and fur wearing barbarians..... but we start in southern taldor....WHAT THE... talk about a let down.... I'm Really ticked.

What Jeff said above.

Really it just requires another question to be answered for character backgrounds:
- "Why did you leave the north for southern lands?"
Trade? Chased out? Temporary job? Lots of options to flesh out your northern character. And still leaves you lots of connections to return.

I'd suggest a trade mission to my players. It gives them a reason to be together from the start and they'd have all of their northern goods / clothing available to them. They would have just brought a change of southern (warmer climate) clothing along.

It would even give the players a chance to be creative and describe what warm weather clothing looks like when designed by people that need to dress warmly 24/7. I'm kind of thinking of Avatar: The Last Airbender, how Katara and Sokka are always wearing something that looks like cold weather clothing regardless of where they are.

I think they're trying to drive home the idea that this isn't the Irrisen AP, and that traveling long distances is a core part of the AP.

Katara and Sokka are always wearing something that looks like cold weather clothing regardless of where they are

Must be the breathable membranes they got in these outdoor jackets nowadays.

BTT: Would you allow a vanilla witch taking up the winter witch PrC to learn fire spells? I. e. why take the archetype denying you fire spells (or exacting a feat tax like Elemental Spell on you) over this combination?

Ruyan.

MJ wrote:

Katara and Sokka are always wearing something that looks like cold weather clothing regardless of where they are

Must be the breathable membranes they got in these outdoor jackets nowadays.

BTT: Would you allow a vanilla witch taking up the winter witch PrC to learn fire spells? I. e. why take the archetype denying you fire spells (or exacting a feat tax like Elemental Spell on you) over this combination?

The prestige class requires the "Ice Magic" feature, which you only get with the archetype.

Im going winter witch into the winter witch PrC....makes me think one of those, either the archetype or the PrC should have been called something different.

Im going winter witch into the winter witch PrC....makes me think one of those, either the archetype or the PrC should have been called something different.

Perhaps...

But we called them the same thing for a very specific reason—as a sort of experiment to see how having an archetype and prestige class combo works as a method of specializing a class into something super specific.

Alternatively, we could have instead simply presented the winter witch base class. But that's not an experiment I was interested in trying out.

when this AP was announced all my players wanted to play winter witches and arctic druids and fur wearing barbarians..... but we start in southern taldor....WHAT THE... talk about a let down.... I'm Really ticked.

If you make winter witches and arctic druids and fur-wearing barbarians... you will NOT be disappointed, and you will be playing in the snow VERY soon into the first adventure, never fear.

And, in the end, if starting in Taldor's that much of a concern, the adventure is built so that a GM can have the starting town be anywhere. You can start your adventure in the Lands of the Linnorm Kings or somewhere already cold if the GM doesn't mind a tiny bit of prep work.

I think they're trying to drive home the idea that this isn't the Irrisen AP, and that traveling long distances is a core part of the AP.

Then they are doing a pretty poor job of bringing that across, with the multiple traits which relate to the Winter Witches. Well, maybe I am not distinguishing "Winter Witches" from "Irrisen" here and that is my own fault.

I am a bit sad that the excellent part of prior player's guides was dropped, where campaign tips for every class and race were given. At least we got semi-something related to which favored enemies are good to take for a Ranger, but I think even that could be expanded upon a bit.

Am I the only one who thinks that Boots of the Winterlands will negate a ton of environmental problems players would otherwise have in this AP? The whole party in one of my Jade Regent groups has bought one pair and even given free ones to the main NPCs, which has resulted in much of the problems regarding extreme cold environments being a bit trivial. I think I can look forward to the same in this AP. ^^

Just make sure the Cyan is full in your printer if you go to make a hard copy :)

Just make sure the Cyan is full in your printer if you go to make a hard copy :)

lol

Pendagast wrote:

Im going winter witch into the winter witch PrC....makes me think one of those, either the archetype or the PrC should have been called something different.

Perhaps...

But we called them the same thing for a very specific reason—as a sort of experiment to see how having an archetype and prestige class combo works as a method of specializing a class into something super specific.

Alternatively, we could have instead simply presented the winter witch base class. But that's not an experiment I was interested in trying out.

I have to side with Pendagast on this one. It may be an "experiment", but it looks lazy, uninspired, and like you guys literally ran out of ideas. The words Snow, Frost, White, Cold, Chill, Great Frost, Ice, Glacier, Artic, etc, didn't fit the bill? That's like Canada naming two of their football teams "The Roughriders". Which we did. Still, I guess it could have been worse. Could have been like WotC 3.5 and had a Knight/Knight/Knight (base class, fighter archetype, and PrC). Nothing like confusing the GMs and players alike.

I think you almost have to do it that way. For me that makes it easy to look up in Inner Sea Magic from Paths of Prestige.

I said they should be named differently when Paths of Preatige came out. Having an archetype and a prestige class with the same name is just really confusing.

I have no problem with a specific archetype leading to a specific prestige class, but they need different names. Archetypes for different classes can be named the same, Ranger (scout) vs Rogue (scout) works. Witch (unstated but required Winter Witch) / Winter Witch does not. I would have preferred White Witch (which fits as they are the "upperclass" witches, IIRC) or Irrisen witch.

After reading Irrisen, Land of Eternal Winter, I've gone from thinking it's clunky, to thinking that it's outright confusing.

My 2 cp.

In stat blocks, at least, archetypes are listed in parentheses after the class, and prestige classes are given their own class and level.

So someone with the winter witch archetype would look something like: NE female witch 8 (winter witch).

While someone with the winter witch prestige class would look like: LE male witch 8 (winter witch)/winter witch 3.

You do end up having "winter witch" repeated in the stat block, but it should still be clear whether you're talking about the archetype or the prestige class.

Also, "White Witch" is a noble title of Irrisen, not a prestige class. One can be a winter witch without being a member of Irrisen's government. Similarly, one can be a winter witch without any connection to Irrisen, so "Irrisen witch" would not be an accurate title for the prestige class either.

Both the archetype and the prestige class have the same name because you can't have one without the other - the winter witch archetype is a requirement for the prestige class.

How serious were you guys about making a Winter Witch base class / alternative class?

Both the archetype and the prestige class have the same name because you can't have one without the other - the winter witch archetype is a requirement for the prestige class.

If the only way to take the PrC is to take the alternate class, then why bother making the PrC at all? Just make it a whole new class, or make the PrC half of the class the replacement aspect of the alternate class. As it stands now, the winter witch archetype is rather lack luster. Probably didn't even need to lose the 1st level of +1 witch level as they're both written.

Both the archetype and the prestige class have the same name because you can't have one without the other - the winter witch archetype is a requirement for the prestige class.

Which pushes the decision to become a Winter Witch all the way back to 1st level. What then, is the the advantage of not having a Winter Witch base class, or at least taking the abilities of the PRC and making them part of the archetype?

In other words, if one is required for the other, what is the value of having them be discreet rules constructs?

Not trying to argue here -- I just want to understand what drove the design, because I can't ferret it out on my own.

Archetypes are, essentially, alternate classes. The only difference between an alternate class like the ninja and an archetype id that we reprint all of the class information for the ninja, but it is essentially a rogue with a few abilities switched out.

So why is winter witch an archetype and not an alternate class? Because alternate classes belong in the hardback rule book line, not in a campaign setting book. Similarly, we already have the witch base class, so we're not going to create a new winter witch base class.

As to why we then made it into a prestige class, the winter witch is highly tied to our world, with the nation of Irrisen, and we believe that most new prestige classes should be tied to the world rather than just exist as rules and mechanics in a vacuum - that's the reason Paths of Prestige is a Campaign Setting book, not a Pathfinder RPG rulebook.

As was mentioned earlier, tying the archetype to a prestige class was an experiment. I think many people create characters with the plan of eventually going into a prestige class down the line, and they start making feat choices and skill choices as early as possible to meet the requirements of that prestige class. For the winter witch, the archetype is just another requirement that someone who wants to go into the winter witch prestige class must look at from the beginning. At the same time, the archetype allows us to have winter witches in the game at lower levels, before they meet the requirements for the prestige class.

As to why we then made it into a prestige class, the winter witch is highly tied to our world, with the nation of Irrisen, and we believe that most new prestige classes should be tied to the world rather than just exist as rules and mechanics in a vacuum - that's the reason Paths of Prestige is a Campaign Setting book, not a Pathfinder RPG rulebook.

Interesting -- I hadn't considered that.

How serious were you guys about making a Winter Witch base class / alternative class?

Not at all. Which is why we went with the archetype/prestige class option instead.

In fact, the idea of achieving this same effect by making a Winter Witch base class never even occurred to me until I posted about it upthread as a possible variant way to do the same basic thing we did by having an archetype/prestige class combo.

As to why we then made it into a prestige class, the winter witch is highly tied to our world, with the nation of Irrisen, and we believe that most new prestige classes should be tied to the world rather than just exist as rules and mechanics in a vacuum - that's the reason Paths of Prestige is a Campaign Setting book, not a Pathfinder RPG rulebook.

You basically just negated your old quote with the above.

Also, "White Witch" is a noble title of Irrisen, not a prestige class. One can be a winter witch without being a member of Irrisen's government. Similarly, one can be a winter witch without any connection to Irrisen, so "Irrisen witch" would not be an accurate title for the prestige class either.

So tell me again why you couldn't name it the Irrisen Witch if it's so connected to the world, namely the nation of Irrisen?

Rob McCreary wrote:

Both the archetype and the prestige class have the same name because you can't have one without the other - the winter witch archetype is a requirement for the prestige class.

Which pushes the decision to become a Winter Witch all the way back to 1st level. What then, is the the advantage of not having a Winter Witch base class, or at least taking the abilities of the PRC and making them part of the archetype?

In other words, if one is required for the other, what is the value of having them be discreet rules constructs?

Not trying to argue here -- I just want to understand what drove the design, because I can't ferret it out on my own.

The advantage of not having a Winter Witch base class is fivefold:

1) Avoiding accusations of base class bloat, which is something that we're VERY close to already, if not past.

2) Not setting a precedent for making base classes just because we want to.

3) We can do an Archetype/Prestige Class combo in under 3 pages.

4) We have a philosophy that in order to be a base class, the class HAS to bring something new to the table. That's why we made the samurai and ninja not base classes but alternate classes (a distinction likely lost on several folks). A winter witch base class not only doesn't bring that much brand new to the witch class... it barely even changes the class's name.

5) An error on our part in the design of Advanced Player's Guide that had the witch class not really able to fill the role of a winter witch right out of the book.

So tell me again why you couldn't name it the Irrisen Witch if it's so connected to the world, namely the nation of Irrisen?

Because we've been calling them winter witches from the start and "Irrisen witches" never. And because there are non-winter witches in Irrisen.

Rob McCreary wrote:

As to why we then made it into a prestige class, the winter witch is highly tied to our world, with the nation of Irrisen, and we believe that most new prestige classes should be tied to the world rather than just exist as rules and mechanics in a vacuum - that's the reason Paths of Prestige is a Campaign Setting book, not a Pathfinder RPG rulebook.

You basically just negated your old quote with the above.

Rob McCreary wrote:

Also, "White Witch" is a noble title of Irrisen, not a prestige class. One can be a winter witch without being a member of Irrisen's government. Similarly, one can be a winter witch without any connection to Irrisen, so "Irrisen witch" would not be an accurate title for the prestige class either.

So tell me again why you couldn't name it the Irrisen Witch if it's so connected to the world, namely the nation of Irrisen?

It might have been more accurate to say that Irrisen is connected to winter witches. On Golarion, there are strong ties between Irrisen and winter witches, so in our products, so we chose to present the winter witch archetype and prestige class in the Campaign Setting line. But there's nothing preventing you from using winter witches in your homebrew campaign world or any other campaign setting.

In other words, you can have a winter witch without Irrisen, but you can't have Irrisen without winter witches.

None of which negates what has been said before.

It might have been more accurate to say that Irrisen is connected to winter witches. On Golarion, there are strong ties between Irrisen and winter witches, so in our products, so we chose to present the winter witch archetype and prestige class in the Campaign Setting line. But there's nothing preventing you from using winter witches in your homebrew campaign world or any other campaign setting.

In other words, you can have a winter witch without Irrisen, but you can't have Irrisen without winter witches.

None of which negates what has been said before.

Okay, THIS I understand am makes me much less confused. It's a good thing to clear up. Still a little confused about the whole deal, but it's minimal.

kevin_video wrote:

So tell me again why you couldn't name it the Irrisen Witch if it's so connected to the world, namely the nation of Irrisen?

Because we've been calling them winter witches from the start and "Irrisen witches" never. And because there are non-winter witches in Irrisen.

Explain a reason/situation where a Winter witch wouldn't go onto the the PrC.

Would it have one more caster level and more access to hexes?

It appears from the writing that a winter witch PrC still advances by getting more hexes as if she was a normal witch so the case of having more hexes would be true.

the only difference being that a PrC WW is 'forced' to take certain hexes, where as a archetyped but not prestiged WW would have more freedom of hexes, without the added oopmh to cold spells?

How would you imagine the split, in your mind of Winter witches that DID NOT prestige vs. ones that did... is the prestige more or less common?

I was thinking about a dip into Winter Witch archetype for my cold caster. You can get quite a bit for the 1 level. Unfortunately I could never get a good answer on if Ice Magic only blocked you from learning Witch spells with fire, or blocks your fire spells on leveling other classes too.

So there's a possible example of not going into prestige with it. And a question that makes dipping into the archetype better or worse.

Explain a reason/situation where a Winter witch wouldn't go onto the the PrC.

The witch with the winter witch archetype decides to multiclass into oracle and instead decides to be a winter witch mystic theurge.

Pendagast wrote:

Explain a reason/situation where a Winter witch wouldn't go onto the the PrC.

The witch with the winter witch archetype decides to multiclass into oracle and instead decides to be a winter witch mystic theurge.

Hmmmmm.....

Other than that, it's pretty much almost all of them PrCing when they can?

There's a Winter Oracle too (from what I hear) a witch/oracle would a a bunt load of spells, healing... but a lot less of the higher level spells, hexes and other toys... hmmm I would have to look at it once I get people of the north...is that where the winter oracle is? or is it hiding in the irissen book?

There's a Winter Oracle too (from what I hear) a witch/oracle would a a bunt load of spells, healing... but a lot less of the higher level spells, hexes and other toys... hmmm I would have to look at it once I get people of the north...is that where the winter oracle is? or is it hiding in the irissen book?

It's in People of the North, under the new oracle mystery, Winter. It's on page 26.

that book is one the way with my copy of the AP

1) Avoiding accusations of base class bloat, which is something that we're VERY close to already, if not past.

A bit OT, but: I'd personally seriously prefer more new base classes ( Swashbuckler! ) vs. tons of prestige classes and a gazillion archetypes. New base classes from Paizo have turned out to be much more innovative than the glut of archetypes and prestige classes, the latter of which have the additional problem that you have to take a base class until normally level six and fulfill sometimes stiff prerequisites to even get there.

So you have my vote for a few more base classes. When I first heard about the base classes for the APG some years ago, I thought "WTH is this stuff?" But aside from the Summoner, all of them turned out to be a great, innovative additions to the game ( and the latter I am more against because the unnecessary complexity of the class. And because the Eidolon is creepy as hell.^^ ). So, again, my vote for more base classes.

And a Swashbuckler base class, please. Without any sneak attack, pretty please. ^^

Nice player's guide as always but it almost seems as if the only thing the PCs need to know is this.

Nice player's guide as always but it almost seems as if the only thing the PCs need to know is this.

That certainly would've made my job MUCH easier. :)