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For argument's sake, I have big cat (tiger) animal companion that has Multiattack, Pounce (Ex) ability, and Rake (Ex) ability.
According to the description for Pounce, the tiger, gets to make a full attack, including Rake attacks. Does this mean that a tiger gets to make five attacks (bite, claw, claw from Multiattack and claw, claw, from Rake ability) while it charges at a foe?
Yes, that's what it means.
Although Multiattack isn't needed in the above situation, since all of the tiger's natural attacks are primary.
Question is, do I actually make the complete set of bite claw claw?
Let's assume the bite is successful. Check for grapple -> success!
Do I continue with the claw attacks, or do I skip them (now being in a grapple and all) and immediately switch to the rakes?
second rake is only used in a grapple.
This is wrong. Pounce specifically says you get rake attacks. You don't need to grapple to rake when you're pouncing.
Question is, do I actually make the complete set of bite claw claw?
Let's assume the bite is successful. Check for grapple -> success!
Do I continue with the claw attacks, or do I skip them (now being in a grapple and all) and immediately switch to the rakes?
If you pounce, your attack routine is as you suggested in your first post (bite, claw, claw, rake, rake). No grapple is necessary. If you choose to grapple anyway, you forgo all further attacks, including the rakes, unless you take a -20 penalty on the grapple check.
Other than on a pounce, rake can only be used if you were grappling the foe at the start of your turn.
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Question is, do I actually make the complete set of bite claw claw?
Let's assume the bite is successful. Check for grapple -> success!
Do I continue with the claw attacks, or do I skip them (now being in a grapple and all) and immediately switch to the rakes?
Grapple doesn't stop a full attack. Maintaing one does. So in your charge pounce omfg I have a tiger on me help it hurts round. Your grapple want stop your attacks. You do however have to apply any penalties from the grappled condition though in your following attacks.
Of course, the easiest way to avoid any grapple penalties is to simply use the grappling attack last, since you can take your 5 attacks in any order you choose.
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Of course, the easiest way to avoid any grapple penalties is to simply use the grappling attack last, since you can take your 5 attacks in any order you choose.
Umm...
Melee 2 claws +10 (1d8+6 plus grab), bite +9 (2d6+6 plus grab)
Special Attacks pounce, rake (2 claws +10, 1d8+6)
it could always just voluntarily skip the grab on the claws
Of course, the easiest way to avoid any grapple penalties is to simply use the grappling attack last, since you can take your 5 attacks in any order you choose.Umm...
Melee 2 claws +10 (1d8+6 plus grab), bite +9 (2d6+6 plus grab)
Special Attacks pounce, rake (2 claws +10, 1d8+6)
I know both claws and bite have grab. I was referring to the bonus rake attacks. Take the rake attacks before the attack you intend to grab on (since you can always choose NOT to grab even if the attack gives you the option to grab), then there are no penalties.
Yes but both Claws have to hit in order for Grab to work on those (if I recall the Grab entry correct).
According to Grab (Ex) only a claw or bite attack needs to be successful to perform a grapple as a free action.
So, what I'm understanding so far is, the Pounce ability allows the five attacks by the tiger, and at the end of the five attacks, assuming one of those attacks did succeed, the Grab ability can come into play for a grapple, all in one Full Round Attack?
So, what I'm understanding so far is, the Pounce ability allows the five attacks by the tiger, and at the end of the five attacks, assuming one of those attacks did succeed, the Grab ability can come into play for a grapple, all in one Full Round Attack?
That is correct, except you can try to grab after each of the bite and claw attacks. The only way you can "save" the grab ability until the end is by not trying to grab on any attack except on the last.
Since you can take those 5 attacks in any order you choose, to avoid any sort of penalty to the remaining attacks after the one where you succeed at grappling, you should probably not try to grab until the last attack, and thus choose to take either bite or claw last.
(unless grappling is your main goal, in which case you should try to grab on all three of those attacks).
For instance, you can do it like this:
- Bite, Rake, Rake, Claw, Claw (try to grab only on the last claw)
Or like this:
- Rake, Rake, Bite (try to grab), Claw (try to grab), Claw (try to grab).
In the second case, if you succeed on either of the first two grabs, you'll get a penalty to the following attacks.
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wow, glad i was wrong! i was disapointed when i thought you couldn't rake on a the pounce! and just to note, the tiger doesn't get this till your 7th level.
question: are we sure the animal comp gets 2 claws outta rake? the bestiary shows a format of number of claw attacks the rake is granting, but the animal comp isn't specifiying a number.
I wonder if Pathfinder developers dropped the ball on this and added all this cheese without knowing. Oh well, at least I'm not lactose intolerant. Thanks all for the clarification.
Typically, I never try to grab while performing a pounce; I just find it more efficient for the tiger to either full attack (and possibly grab) on the following round, or to attempt to set up for another pounce :)
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another question: me and my DM are a little confused on the attack sequnce. ive always thought that only the first attack is primary, the rest secondary, is this right, since the bestiary table says both claws and bite are primary, and the druid specifically says all attack are at full base attack. and then what if any use does a big cat get outta the multiattack feat?
another question: me and my DM are a little confused on the attack sequnce. ive always thought that only the first attack is primary, the rest secondary, is this right, since the bestiary table says both claws and bite are primary, and the druid specifically says all attack are at full base attack. and then what if any use does a big cat get outta the multiattack feat?
I think prior to 9th level, which is when the animal companion receives the Multiattack ability, it can only attack with one natural attack, either a bite or one claw.
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and then what if any use does a big cat get outta the multiattack feat?
None. The purpose behind Multiattack is to reduce the penalty on secondary attacks.
Which you don't have.I think prior to 9th level, which is when the animal companion receives the Multiattack ability, it can only attack with one natural attack, either a bite or one claw.
Negative on this, Houston. If it uses a full-round action to full attack, it gets all three natural attacks in that round.
If it only uses a standard action, it's one claw or one bite, as usual.|
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cool, so were doing my lion full attack wrong, currently at +3/-3/-3.
so does that mean at 9th level a lion gets mutliattack that does nothing, or another attack (bite,claw or even tail slap) at -5?
and thats not at all how rake works in pf, that was 3.5, now if animal charges to use pounce or begins turn grappling it just gets two extra claw attacks.
so does that mean at 9th level a lion gets mutliattack that does nothing, or another attack (bite,claw or even tail slap) at -5?
The former. As you have three or more natural attacks, you qualify for the Multiattack Feat.
Which will give you... nothing at all.The additional druid AC rule (for the attack at -5) only comes into play if the AC has two or less natural attacks.
Wait, rewind. Using my example of a tiger animal companion, which gets to attack with one bite and two claws, as a full round action, it can do this even without the Multiattack feat? So before 9th level?
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Here we go again...
I think prior to 9th level, which is when the animal companion receives the Multiattack ability, it can only attack with one natural attack, either a bite or one claw.
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Negative on this, Houston. If it uses a full-round action to full attack, it gets all three natural attacks in that round.
If it only uses a standard action, it's one claw or one bite, as usual.
Wait, rewind. Using my example of a tiger animal companion, which gets to attack with one bite and two claws, as a full round action, it can do this even without the Multiattack feat? So before 9th level?
Yes.
Multiattack only does something for those animal companions that have some attacks that are listed as secondary. Since the tiger only has primary attacks, Multiattack makes no difference to its attack sequence.
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Wait, rewind. Using my example of a tiger animal companion, which gets to attack with one bite and two claws, as a full round action, it can do this even without the Multiattack feat? So before 9th level?Yes.
Multiattack only does something for those animal companions that have some attacks that are listed as secondary. Since the tiger only has primary attacks, Multiattack makes no difference to its attack sequence.
That only applies to a full attack action, correct. If the tiger moves and then attacks, it only gets a single attack, such as a bite right?
That only applies to a full attack action, correct. If the tiger moves and then attacks, it only gets a single attack, such as a bite right?Wait, rewind. Using my example of a tiger animal companion, which gets to attack with one bite and two claws, as a full round action, it can do this even without the Multiattack feat? So before 9th level?Yes.
Multiattack only does something for those animal companions that have some attacks that are listed as secondary. Since the tiger only has primary attacks, Multiattack makes no difference to its attack sequence.
Standard actions only get one attack.
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That only applies to a full attack action, correct. If the tiger moves and then attacks, it only gets a single attack, such as a bite right?Wait, rewind. Using my example of a tiger animal companion, which gets to attack with one bite and two claws, as a full round action, it can do this even without the Multiattack feat? So before 9th level?Yes.
Multiattack only does something for those animal companions that have some attacks that are listed as secondary. Since the tiger only has primary attacks, Multiattack makes no difference to its attack sequence.
Correct. Just like a standard Two-weapon Fighter, you can full attack and use both weapons (or all natural weapons in the case of our druid's AC) or attack as a standard action with your choice of one of the weapons available.
So if you have an AC that is a horse, then you combat train it... all attacks are primary attacks (per horses Docile rule)
(Sorry was a little off topic to OP)
Basically the way rake works is that if both front claws hit, they get a purchase and thus let you get two more attacks from the rear claws. That's the rake.Wait, is this part correct?
In the case of the big cat, the rake ability doesn't say that, so you use the default rules for Rake (Ex) which says that cat will only rake when it maintains a grapple. (Or charges and uses pounce)
I'm pretty sure there are some creatures out there that get a rake ability when they hit with other attacks, I just can't come up with an example at the moment.
Wait, is this part correct?Basically the way rake works is that if both front claws hit, they get a purchase and thus let you get two more attacks from the rear claws. That's the rake.
No. Rake works in two ways:
Pounce gives you free rake attacks, regardless of if your front claws hit or not.
Starting your turn grappling the foe gives you free rake attacks against the foe without needing to break the grapple.
However, the flavor of rake attacks being the hind legs is definitely true, and that's how I also describe rake attacks.
So if you have an AC that is a horse, then you combat train it... all attacks are primary attacks (per horses Docile rule)
Only the hooves change. Docile makes hooves secondary unless the animal is combat trained. It has no effect on any other natural weapons.
Yes.
Multiattack only does something for those animal companions that have some attacks that are listed as secondary. Since the tiger only has primary attacks, Multiattack makes no difference to its attack sequence.
I now know too much.
Wait, is this part correct?Basically the way rake works is that if both front claws hit, they get a purchase and thus let you get two more attacks from the rear claws. That's the rake.
No. You get free rake attacks under either of two conditions:
-you begin your turn already grappling an opponent-you've pounced on them
In the first case, this would allow you -- IF you started your turn grappling a foe -- to make a grapple check for damage or to pin, and in addition make two rakes. In the second case, it doesn't matter if the bite/claw/claw routine hit or not -- you get rake attempts.
Other things:
-You may as well try to grab on each attack you have the grab ability on, if you are pouncing or attacking a single opponent. Grapple lowers your attack, but it also lowers their defense, and they exactly cancel.