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Accessible at first level, only better (immediate action instead of swift), without a magic item, usable in an antimagic field, and eventually multiple times per day.
Battle Oracle's Surprising Charge
Since the APG, and it hasn't broken the game.
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Accessible at first level, only better (immediate action instead of swift), without a magic item, usable in an antimagic field, and eventually multiple times per day.
Battle Oracle's Surprising Charge
Since the APG, and it hasn't broken the game.
That's true. However, the cost of the magic item that grants Surprising Charge or one extra daily use of it to Battle Oracles only is 10,000 gold. If the shirt cost more like 10,000 gold (x2 for being available to non Battle Oracles, /2 for not being an immediate action), I doubt there would be as much concern.
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(original post that Jiggy branched from)
I see that the quickrunner's shirt is going to become legal this week.
Please do not allow this item to become legal for PFS play.
Quick Runner’s Shirt
PRICE 1,000 gp
AURA faint transmutation
CL 5th
WEIGHT —
This shirt is made of light, gossamer-thin fabric embroidered with arrangements of winged feet. Once per day as a swift action, the wearer can take an additional move action to move on his turn.
A more-expensive item which had this effect three times per day, the Belt of Battle, existed in 3.5's Magic Item Compendium. I have had too-much experience with games that included the Belt of Battle, and I can say from experience that this effect makes the game less fun for everyone.
The rules of the game do not intend for PCs or monsters to be able to take a move action and a full-attack action. The game grants a measure of safety when a given PC or monster is more than 5' out of an enemy's threatened area. Taking away that safety measure, from experience, turns the game into full-attack rocket-tag, since full-attacks can be unleashed from as far as a move action away. This item breaks the rules of the game, and not in a good way. It grants a very powerful effect, akin to Pounce, for a very low price.
And with a price so cheap, every melee PC and NPC can do it. Why not buy five quickrunner's shirts so as to turn the 1/day limitation into a 1/fight limitation? Or just wear five shirts, and take one of them off as a move action during a moment of downtime after its used, allowing another use of this ability within the same fight?
The only thing this item has going for it is that it costs more than 750gp, so it cannot be acquired with Prestige.
The un-fun-ness of this item's effect comes from actual experience with it. I do not want to play or GM in that environment again. Please do not allow the quickrunner's shirt to become legal for PFS.
-Matt
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@Mattastrophic:
Didn't someone in the other thread say that the older item you cite was actually more powerful (granting standard actions or some such)? If so, then your experience isn't really relevant, as there's a huge difference between an extra standard action and an extra normal movement.
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Jiggy - also only available to oracles or those that are willing to level dip and take a curse
I agree that there is a problem with this item. While you may not think the ability overpowered in other builds from other class-abilities and feats/abilities, we have now effectively bottled that feature into an item - meaning that every build now has access to it.
I expect to see a lot more shirted Magi out there who move up to the boss and spell-combat/spellstrike during the first round just because they won initiative. The same will now hold true for several barbarians, fighters, and rangers out there who make great use out of Full-Attacking. Clerics no longer need worry about if they are within one movement of the party melee-ist so that they can Breath of Life them. Etc.
Now if we synergize this shirt with Boots of Springing & Striding...
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@Mattastrophic:
Didn't someone in the other thread say that the older item you cite was actually more powerful (granting standard actions or some such)? If so, then your experience isn't really relevant, as there's a huge difference between an extra standard action and an extra normal movement.
I have had experience with this specific function of the Belt of Battle. While the Belt has additional options, my experience, and post, deals with this particular aspect which the quickrunner's shirt provides.
Your post was out of order, and quite insulting. Please do not belittle me or my gaming experience again.
-Matt
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It's a low level item with a single daily use. Only a few classes rely on full attacks at low levels, which are primarily twfers, monks and magus. None of these classes are overpowered. I don't really see it as an issue.
In fact, I actually think it's a plus, as archers, casters and single weapon users are very consistent each turn in their effectiveness. Builds relying on full attacks without pounce simply don't work very well after a certain point, as 5-foot stepping to the next enemy becomes more and more unusual as the game progresses.
The only possible issue is people buying a ton of them, as it is with any low level daily use item. It is always possible to only allow people to have 1 copy of a magical item, or to require a 24 hour attunement before item daily powers can be used.
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Your post was out of order, and quite insulting. Please do not belittle me or my gaming experience again.
-Matt
Huh? I just said that if the items were different enough then experience with one doesn't mean as much about the other. How is that insulting?
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Not really adding anything to the discusion here however...
I will be the first to admit that as soon as these become legal, every character I have will buy a closet full of them.
Seriously, for 5k you can have an extra move every fight. thats like mini-pounce.
Do I think it's game breaking? not really.
Do I think it's game changing? oh my yes.
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I fully agree that readily and cheaply available access to options that break action economy are bad for the game. As such I am opposed to the shirt as it is written.
That said, the magus as written is far more abusive. If the magus stays as it is, I have no problem with the shirt. Free move actions for everyone!
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So my recently retired Rogue/Barbarian makes great use of battlefield movement: switching between Spring Attack & Vital Strike as needed. With his levels in Barbarian, Boots of Springing & Striding, and the occasional Haste from the party Sorcerer, I can move up to 80' as a move action - or charge 160'...
I would buy this item, definitely, if it stays legal. Enemy thinks he is safe being on the other side of the flip mat? Think again!
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I fully agree that readily available access to options that break action economy are bad for the game. As such I am opposed to the shirt as it is written.
For reference, then, are you also opposed to the spring-loaded wrist sheath? Swift action to retrieve a specific item (normally a move action), for 5gp.
Or the tiefling's Prehensile Tail alternate racial trait from the APG, which is even better than the sheath, and for free?
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An extra swift action is one thing, extra move actions are more powerful.
What are you referring to? The things I listed in response to Feral? Because those convert things that were moves into swifts, essentially gaining you an "extra" move action.
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For reference, then, are you also opposed to the spring-loaded wrist sheath? Swift action to retrieve a specific item (normally a move action), for 5gp.
Its certainly one of those items that penalizes players who don't own all the books or who have lower levels of system mastery.
Its one of those absolutely no brainer items that just about ALL characters should have.
Its not powerful enough to be game breaking, but it certainly makes things like wands much easier to use and juggle.
I'm not sure the shirt is overpowered. But I'm certain that every single one of my characters will own at least one (more if allowed) and that they will be noticeably more powerful than the characters who don't own one.
That is pretty much my definition of power creep.
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Quite so. reposition and charge is worth it for a lot of melee builds - no more being clogged up behind your allies for 1k? Sold.
This, I imagine, will be one of the strongest uses of this item. That and move + full attack.
Similarly the ability to shift out of cover (or into cover) before or after a full-round stonk from an archer is _really_ strong.
They could already do that with 5ft steps. This just adds a little flexibility is all.
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Quite so. reposition and charge is worth it for a lot of melee builds - no more being clogged up behind your allies for 1k? Sold. Similarly the ability to shift out of cover (or into cover) before or after a full-round stonk from an archer is _really_ strong.
As is:
-Ability to start a full-attack, drop the baddie, then move to get within melee range of another baddie, and continue full-attacking.
-Having effectively Spring Attack (though without the AO-avoiding feature) for 1,000gp/use. Except this version allows Vital Strike.
-Ability to use Stealth as a swift action. Best when combined with some form of hiding in plain sight. This part combines well with virtual Spring Attack.
-I think we've already mentioned virtual Pounce. At higher levels, Boots of Speed are still a free action to activate, thus extending the range of one's full-attack "danger zone."
In general, extra actions are always very powerful effects. The quickrunner's shirt provides a very powerful effect for a very low cost.
-Matt
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Excellent breakdown, Mattastrophic. The question, then, is whether enabling all those things is bad.
I notice that all the best uses of this item are for higher-level martial (especially melee) characters. Aren't people usually complaining that casters (and archers, to a degree) dominate at later levels? Isn't this just letting the melee folks "keep up" a little longer?
Isn't that a good thing?
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I joyously flailed my hands in the air when I saw it, so it's probably overpowered. I'm not normally a flailer.
I see no reason not to buy at least one for almost any character. Maybe ranged Inquisitors would skip this, since they need their swifts for other things? I feel like that's adding a new must-have item and there are already enough of those.
A caster could use it to leave cover, cast, and then hide again, but that's already possible with the Shift power.
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I expect casters to be making use of this item as much as marital classes. As I said earlier, this would allow the cleric an additional move action to get to someone for Breath of Life. The caster who needs to move before beginning their full-round summon. The caster who needs to double move so they can deliver their high-power touch spell. These are but a few examples.
We banned traitsCome to think of it, maybe this thread doesn't belong in the PFS section...
Hence why I made this thread in the General Discussion area a few days ago ;)
We banned traits on the basis of "every character should take this trait". This shirt qualifies as "so good everyone should have several". As both a player and a GM, I sincerely hope this item does not allowed for play at its current price (or at all).
Exactly. Any non-core item / ability that everyone will take is overpowered, almost by definition. Especially when it's insanely cheap, weighs nothing, breaks the action economy, and uses up a slot that realistically nothing else does.
I'm not even sure people were aware the chest slot existed.
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Wow. This is definitely a strong example of power creep. Action economy is a powerful balancing act for any character, and this tips the scales on the side of the wearer and for pennies...
Please do not allow this item into PFS. I can think of no other item that I immediately think, "I must buy this." for every character from spell caster to melee fighter.
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PCs on the other hand will gain the ability to swift action open doors and then full attack with their archer, between one and many times per day.Except the Shirt doesn't let you do that.
It doesn't? The shirt gives you an extra move action per day, correct? It's a move action to open a door... then a full-round action to shoot... Yeah, I see that working.
Though, perhaps I'm misunderstanding something here, but doesn't the Shirt take up a Body slot? As in, you can't wear armor when using it? That cuts down a lot of abuse right there(though Mirror Image Magus can still get his full use out of it).
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Though, perhaps I'm misunderstanding something here, but doesn't the Shirt take up a Body slot? As in, you can't wear armor when using it?
The Armor slot and the Chest slot are two different slots in Pathfinder, actually.
-Matt
