I've sort of assumed that since Andoran is akin to colonial America, that Cheliax would be similar to the British Empire....but Taldor seems to fit the image too...
Thoughts to point me in the right direction?
I always put on a stiff British upper lip when playing a Taldan noble, so take that as you will. :D
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To me, Cheliax seems to be a closer fit to ancient Italy. Taldor (and to a lesser extent Molthune and Nirmathas) feel like the best Britian stand-ins... both due to Taldor's world exploration element and due to the fact that there's lots of Robin Hood type stuff going on in Nirmathas.
we always play Taldor as Shakespearen fobs, whether this is correct or not, its how we play it
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In my Golarion, Taldor is a hybrid cusp-of-the-Renaissance Britain/last-days-of Byzantium with Oppara standing in as London/Constantanople.
Cheliax is a more a seafaring, colonial Britain/Holy Roman Empire mash up. With an extra emphasis on the Latin now that Asmodeous is on top.
Sargava still clings to the older, more British ways...
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I know mine is WAAAAY off but,
For me...
Since I always saw Taldor as medieval France (sorta) and Cheliax as a bit Italian, and Andoran as southern-Colonial American -- and, most importantly, Brevoy/ Issia/ Restov as Russia -- and because I needed somewhere to be "British-like," I made it . I just can't see Galt as Red-Russian, especially with Brevoy just above it which is sooo much more Russian to me.
Here's the backstory I made for Galt -- a gazillion years ago or whenever, dozens of tribes on the west coast of the Castrovin Sea were diminishing and diminishing... no food, hard climate, brutal fighting against each other, etc.
Then, when things got really bad they somehow united and traveled west, across the World's Edge Mountains, and founded Galt. This way they are ethnically as well as culturally different from Taldor (& Brevoy & Kellid).
They lived in Galt as mostly unified though, a few generations before Aroden's death they began embracing their past tribal cultures -- it was not an "our old tribe was greater than yours" thing and did not creat conflict -- but rather a curiosity for their individual tribes' history and subculture. After Aroden's death, however, that cultural pride began to turn to Nationalism/ Racism. You throw in the pamphlets that a couple revolutionaries wrote against political corruption and Galt explodes in chaos.
This background for perpetual Revolution is more realistic than Paizo's model. Revolution does not perpetuate itself in humanity the Paizo describes. Doesn't happen. Ethnic racism, however, will lead to perpetual revolution in much the same way Paizo describes.
Under my model, Galt has several sub-cultures (like the peoples of Britain) and a perpetual war zone can exist.
Again, I know it's WAAAY off, but it works for me.
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When the map first appeared with the Europe/Avistan + Garund/Africa analogue and even some clear country/geographical parallels in Egypt/Osirion, Lands of the Linnorm Kings/Scandinavia, etc. There were other clear country echoes too, albeit with different geographical placement, like Galt/France. Nevertheless, it was clear there was no direct analogue of England or Great Britain. I am guessing this was by design, though James Jacob's comments above are interesting.
Taldor for me too seems to fit best. Good points already made above but also the Common Language of Golarion is Taldane and Taldor has 'colonies' in the Far East (Tian Xia) left from its once massive empire. It has the strongest navy too.
But Taldor is southern, therefore warm, and is a continental country neighbouring the Qadiran satrapy. It is most definitely not a direct parallel.
Nirmathas' associations with Robin Hood and the mediaeval forests of England I always liked.
I think there are other nice parallels too and they may be intentional:
Andoran and its pro-democracy, pro-freedom stance surrounded by a more reactionary world is very Great Britain, and the use of the navy to stop the international slave trade is very Royal Navy.
Absalom has a London analogue as the City at the Centre of the World. With all the factions trying to win this little island, it often reminds me of the Richard II passage:
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall,
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands
I shall have to re-read about Molthune.
Perhaps, we'll get a clue when we eventually find out which country the Sarusans most whinge about.
Anyway, playing Taldans with a foppish accent is a lot of fun.
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I like Galt for a more Pre-Revolution America, or even France during the Antoinette days. I would figure the Taldor would be the more Great Britain feel. Especially, since it is in decline. At one point in our history, they saying was, "The sun never sets on the Great Britain Empire." That is how Taldor was, but now they are just a shell of a former glory.
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Cheliax. Definitely Cheliax. It is a powerful overseas colonial and trading Empire, that, while in decline, looks like it may be on the cusp of another Golden Age with a brilliant and ruthless young queen on the throne (long may she reign).
I actually have to disagree with the assessment that Cheliax is an analogue to Italy, whether it is ancient pre-Roman Italy, or Medieval/Renaissance Italy, simply because the entire nation is united under the rule of a powerful absolutist monarchy, which is quite unlike Italy before or after the fall of the Roman Empire. As most who study history know, Italy was simply a collection of powerful city states constantly vying for supremacy against one another.
If anything, Absalom and Varisia are more representative of Medieval Italy, with Absalom representing Venice and the Varisian city states representing Naples, Florence, and/or Milan.
I guess the feel of Cheliax is definitely Medieval/Renaissance Italian, i.e., being a center of incredible art and culture while at the same time extremely dangerous/cloak and dagger.
For some reason I've always had it in my head that Taldor was like a post- Roman Empire Italy since they were in decline from a once dominating civilization and were so arts oriented. Their capitol is even called Oppara. Also it fit better in my head with Taldan bravado.
Cheliax always seemed way more British or French to me, with it's sea powered imperialism and high nobility.
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There's never going to be a single answer to this question.
You can look at parts of Golarion and see "a land of the noble and brave standing up to the opressive empire". But while the American players may well identify this as an analogue of the struggle between the 13 colonies and the redcoats, many British players will be offended by any assumption that Cheliax (say) represents GB; they'll see themselves as the heroic group, fighting against Norman or Spanish (maybe even Roman) authority.
Where you want it to be.
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The problem with the British nobility for RPGs is that the temptation is always to make nobility intensely decadent: the French and Italians have always pulled off decadance for more convincingly than the British upper-classes. Britain has too much of a self-denying, protestant ethic.
I agree with JohnF:
The obvious parallel must surely be that the UK (Taldor) is a nation in decline after losing control of a fundamentally evil nation which now outshines it (US/Cheliax).
Non?
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Absalom has a London analogue as the City at the Centre of the World. With all the factions trying to win this little island, it often reminds me of the Richard II passage:
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall,
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands
Interesting perspective. I always though Absalom was Golarion's stand-in for Jerusalem, in that it's central to many of the world's faiths and every nation surrounding it wants it for its own.
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Interesting perspective. I always though Absalom was Golarion's stand-in for Jerusalem, in that it's central to many of the world's faiths and every nation surrounding it wants it for its own.Absalom has a London analogue as the City at the Centre of the World. With all the factions trying to win this little island, it often reminds me of the Richard II passage:
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall,
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands
I thought of it as The White City.
Well, I don't necessarily care about the snooty nobility thing as much as maybe having a place for downtrodden "English" peasants, Celt-y barbarians, "Scottish" highlanders, plenty of downs and moors, and flocks of sheep.
Chelaxians are easy enough to turn into a sort of twisted Victorian culture if I feel like it.
I suppose I could say that parts of Cheliax are like GB, whereas others are like Italy and Spain...
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In my mind Taldor is a mixture of Byzantine(sorry, had to) military and administration, Age of Sail Spain divine mandatism and ruthlessness, Medieval Spain cultural and geopolitical tension a la Reconquista and some bits and pieces of pre-Victorian England and various other cultural eras and spheres. Varangian guard and colonial expansion, "bearded men" and bustling art scenes, hoary knights standing watch for what they believe is just and righteous while on the other side of the border their counterparts mull those same thoughts. It's all of that and more.
To stay on topic, barely, the city of Korvosa will always be the one true London for me. I blame the Curse of the Crimson Throne for its evocative renditions that mixed Lankhmar, colonial Boston and London into a lovely dank and dreary concoction, where everybody loves to hate their neighbours and the City Guard can hardly keep up with the backstabbing and racial tension. Plague doctors, dank dockyards, suspicious Vudrans(thankfully no Tien underground though, gotta love Paizo for that) and a coiling early morning mist hiding horrors both ancient and new.
I agree that Oppara might be a better fit politically and regionally, but it always felt too ancient for me. Might work as the substitute for Rome though, it definitely has that kind of presence. But I guess Absalom kind of calls those shots when it comes to Golarions megalopolises.
Then there's several Ustalavi cities that might fit the bill if you are looking for something a bit more gothic. It's a bit of a stretch, but something in the way the whole land is emotionally scarred first by aSauron stand-in in the form of Tar-Baphon and then by a war that leaves the countryside a mess of trenches where nothing grows brings to my mind both Tolkien's attempts to formulate a new British mythology and the horrors of the Great War. Ustalavians even have their own famous mystery killer who loves to taunt the law(cf. Rule of Fear). Food for thought there.
I swear this thread is started every 3-6 months.
I swear this thread is started every 3-6 months.
No swearing on the boards. The moderators may remove your post. :P
On a similar note, which nation is most like Ireland? I'm thinking Nirmathas, but does anyone else have a suggestion?
"When Nimrathis eyes are smilingggggg"
That might actually work.
I would think the nationality would be Nimrathi? The only problem that I can see is that Ireland's character is very strongly shaped by its status as an island, which Nimrathis is not.
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Cheliax. Definitely Cheliax. It is a powerful overseas colonial and trading Empire, that, while in decline, looks like it may be on the cusp of another Golden Age with a brilliant and ruthless young queen on the throne (long may she reign).
I actually have to disagree with the assessment that Cheliax is an analogue to Italy, whether it is ancient pre-Roman Italy, or Medieval/Renaissance Italy, simply because the entire nation is united under the rule of a powerful absolutist monarchy, which is quite unlike Italy before or after the fall of the Roman Empire. As most who study history know, Italy was simply a collection of powerful city states constantly vying for supremacy against one another.
If anything, Absalom and Varisia are more representative of Medieval Italy, with Absalom representing Venice and the Varisian city states representing Naples, Florence, and/or Milan.
I guess the feel of Cheliax is definitely Medieval/Renaissance Italian, i.e., being a center of incredible art and culture while at the same time extremely dangerous/cloak and dagger.
You can see Cheliax as the papal state as its height.
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Nations alter so much over time that this becomes incerasingly odd.
On the radio this week, Eoin Colfer's interviewer compared his books (high-tech + fairy magic) with his country (modern, western, hi-tech state + poetry, mythology and catholocism). Colfer agreed with him.
Would Isger work for occupied Ireland? I don't really see strong analogues for any parts of the British Isles on Golarion.
Could use one of the islands off the western coast of Cheliax - make the population there a slightly different, unique to that island, ethnicity who doesn't wish to remain under the Chelaxian yoke. Maybe have them be strong worshiper of one of the lawful deities most in opposition to Asmodeus.
Huh, Taldor always seemed to me to be the Byzantium analogue, with the heavy cataphracts and the decadence.
Of course putting in some victorian England snobbery would mix it up a bit. Top hats for everybody, pip pip!
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For Ireland, I'd use the River Kingdoms. Not all the realms, mind you, but definitely the ones with a strong frontier kingdom vibe. Kingmaker populated the area with Celtic mythological monsters, like the nuckalavee and it has enough natural mysticism themes to suit just about anyones taste for the ol' Irish flair (read: cheap exoticism).
And if somebody needs something more concrete, it would be easy enough to come up with a new River Kingdom. Up to you.
You really need to define what you mean by Great Brittain - are you looking at just England or are you including Scotland, and Wales and Ireland (not actually part of Britain but part of the British isles).
Not only do you need to define where but when.
Pre-Roman Iron age with many "Celtic" kingdoms.
Roman with the, conquest, Boudeca, Hadrians wall, the userpers, the Pirates, and the fall.
Post Roman, The time of the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Scots, Picts and Irish.
The Viking kingdoms, the Saxon resurgence, the Normans,.
The wars of the Roses, and so on through to Cromwell, the restoration, the Glorious Revolution , Georgians, and Victoria.
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As a relative newcomer to the Pathfinder campaign setting / PFS, but as a historian, I really enjoy learning about how each nation/region is set up on Golaron, especially the subtle or possibly even not-intended ones:
Rahadoum strikes somewhat of Northwest Africa in more than just location - the modern Moroccan/Algerian "leave us out of your ethnic cleansing and jihad, we just want to enjoy this beautiful climate and make awesome Rai music (if you've seen the taxi cab chase scene in The Fifth Element, you've heard Rai before), for example.
Irrisen clearly hearkens to the folklore of old White Russia, right down to the Iron Hag (Baba Yaga) herself. Mammoth Lords and ancient ice-age humans, check. Northmen (aka "vikings"), check. Galt + Revolution, Gaul aka France + Revolution, check. Etc. Etc.
Although to me, Cheliax strikes somewhat of Spanish Imperialism - playing with the big boys like England and France in the early Renaissance, and their infernal courts/hellknights almost smack of a mocking "Spanish Inquisition" (which one would never expect)!
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The whole game world is like an awesome quasi-mashup of real-world human cultures throughout time - something I'd like to imagine was done on purpose. If players, especially ones new to RPGs, notice something they can either identify with or at least say "hey that sounds vaguely familiar" to, I think it helps draw people in to the game-world.
I swear this thread is started every 3-6 months.
A thread of this sort might pop up often, but that's not a bad thing either - it just means more people are getting drawn in to the world, and Pathfinder :)