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Targeted spells allow you to choose the targets.
Wail of the banshee's text states that targets are affected in order of closeness to the spell's point of origin.
If I cast a wail of the banshee (17th caster level) in an area containing say, my allies and seventeen foes, can I make sure the spell only hits those foes? Or does it affect the 17 nearest creatures to the spell's point of origin?
You can choose where to place the center of the spell. You can't determine who hears or doesn't hear it and is affected.
There might be a feat I'm not familiar with that allows that, but I'm not sure.
And yes, specific overrides general is usually how the rules work.
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Targeted spells allow you to choose the targets.
Wail of the banshee's text states that targets are affected in order of closeness to the spell's point of origin.
If I cast a wail of the banshee (17th caster level) in an area containing say, my allies and seventeen foes, can I make sure the spell only hits those foes? Or does it affect the 17 nearest creatures to the spell's point of origin?
That is what Selective Metamagic is for:
Selective Spell (Metamagic)
Your allies need not fear friendly fire.
Prerequisite: Spellcraft 10 ranks.
Benefit: When casting a selective spell with an area effect and a duration of instantaneous, you can choose a number of targets in the area equal to the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type (Charisma for bards, oracles, paladins, sorcerers, and summoners; Intelligence for witches and wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, inquisitors, and rangers). These targets are excluded from the effects of your spell. A selective spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.
Spells that do not have an area of effect do not benefit from this feat.
You can also get a rod of this. Link to item
You can choose where to place the center of the spell. You can't determine who hears or doesn't hear it and is affected.
I disagree. Take a look at the Wail of the Banshee's Effect block:
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one living creature/level within a 40-ft.-radius spread
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance yes
Wail of the Banshee is not an area spell; it doesn't have "Effect area" nor does it specify an area. It's a "Range close" spell with a target of "one living creature/level". As written, then, you can target which creatures you want.
Contrast this with the Effect block for Sleep:
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area one or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
Sleep is an area spell, rather than a target spell, so you don't get to choose which creatures are affected.
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You can choose where to place the center of the spell. You can't determine who hears or doesn't hear it and is affected.I disagree. Take a look at the Wail of the Banshee's Effect block:
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one living creature/level within a 40-ft.-radius spread
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance yesWail of the Banshee is not an area spell; it doesn't have "Effect area" nor does it specify an area. It's a "Range close" spell with a target of "one living creature/level". As written, then, you can target which creatures you want.
Contrast this with the Effect block for Sleep:
Sleep is an area spell, rather than a target spell, so you don't get to choose which creatures are affected.Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area one or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
You quoted the important part:
Target one living creature/level within a 40-ft.-radius spread
Spreads are like bursts
Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.
A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.
It's still a targeted spell, not an area spell. You are limited to targets within a 40-ft. spread, but you still choose those targets. That's what the "Target" line means.
Take a look at Haste:
Targets one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Here's the relevant rules text.
Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects.
So again, the rules distinguish between "Target" spells and "Area" spells, and Wail of the Banshee is the former, not the latter.
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Here's the relevant rules text.
Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.So again, the rules distinguish between "Target" spells and "Area" spells, and Wail of the Banshee is the former, not the latter.Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects.
That limits the spell a little. As a spread it can go around corners, but if it is targeted, then you "must be able to see or touch the target", so no effecting things in a fog cloud, around corners, or who otherwise have concealment from you (aka invisible).
I guess that I find it odd to be able to avoid a sonic spell with being hidden from site.
Avalon & Happler, you're missing the most important part of the spell (with regards to this discussion):
Creatures closest to the point of origin are affected first.Specific rules over ride general rules.
So you think that sentence means that you don't actually choose targets; it automatically targets whatever creatures are closest to the point of origin?
I disagree; I think that sentence just means that, of the creatures targeted by the spell, the ones closest to the point of origin are affected first.
Avalon & Happler, you're missing the most important part of the spell (with regards to this discussion):
Creatures closest to the point of origin are affected first.Specific rules over ride general rules.So you think that sentence means that you don't actually choose targets; it automatically targets whatever creatures are closest to the point of origin?
I disagree; I think that sentence just means that, of the creatures targeted by the spell, the ones closest to the point of origin are affected first.
I would have thought all targets were affected simultaneously.... This does seem like a contradiction in need of a bit of rewording.
I believe this is a case of a spell that needs errata. The target line indicates 1 creature per level in a spread, which means it is a targeted spell
Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
Yet the description leads me to believe that it should adjudicated as a spread with a maximum number of affect-able creatures. The two descriptions conflict as far as I understand it.
I believe this is a case of a spell that needs errata. The target line indicates 1 creature per level in a spread, which means it is a targeted spellSome spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.Yet the description leads me to believe that it should adjudicated as a spread with a maximum number of affect-able creatures. The two descriptions conflict as far as I understand it.
I agree. If the intent is for it to affect whichever creatures are in the area up to the limit, then it can be re-written as an Area effect spell with language similar to the Sleep spell. If the intent is for it to affect the targets chosen by the caster, than the line about creatures near the center being affected first should likely be removed.
So basically, the spell draws from two contradictory sets of magic rules?
1. Targeted spells
2. Area spells (with text stating that the closest to the center of origin are affected first.)
I realize not a lot of people use 9th level spells in their games, but would this be a candidate for FAQ then?
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You can include the question of how much damage it do:
"The spell affects up to one creature per caster level, inflicting 10 points of damage per caster level."
It mean 10 hp per caster level, total
or
10 hp per caster level to each targeted creature?
If it 10 hp per caster level total, with a fortitude save that totally negate it, it is awfully weak for a 9th level spell.
At 10 hp level against each creature it will be pretty strong, but the fortitude ST and being affected by SR will reduce its effect.
I think the key word here is creature.
Most spells that are ranged and selected will alllow you to affect 'Enemies' or 'Allies'. Those that affect 'creatures' are almost universally NON selective, meaning anything in the area is hit and you cannot choose.
Much like (not exactly like) a fireball for example, which is a targeted, ranged spell with a radius effect. But no one would argue that a fireball allows you to choose who is hit. The 'fire' in the case of wail of the banshee is a sonic effect that hits ANY creature in the area, closest ones to the point of origin first until the target totals are used up (which is how it differs from fireball).
Get a Greater Rod of Selective Spell and your fine.
I don't think this is unclear at all.
The primary difference in the wording between Wail of the Banshee and Sleep is the use of "1/creature per level" vs. "one or more creatures per level."
This difference in wording is necessary because Sleep has a maximum HIT DICE limit for its effectiveness, rather than a NUMBER OF CREATURES limits. Note that in the body of the text itself, Sleep includes similar language about who is affected first: low HD creatures before higher, and in the event of ties, those closest to the center are affected first (just as in Wail of the Banshee.)
Neither is a targeted spell.
Most spells that are ranged and selected will alllow you to affect 'Enemies' or 'Allies'. Those that affect 'creatures' are almost universally NON selective, meaning anything in the area is hit and you cannot choose.
This is patently false.
See:Target one creature/levelUnless you are insinuating that you do not in fact choose targets for a 'mass' spell.
Much like (not exactly like) a fireball for example, which is a targeted, ranged spell with a radius effect. But no one would argue that a fireball allows you to choose who is hit.
The fireball doesn't specify individual targets, it specifies an area. There is a difference.
I don't think this is unclear at all.
The primary difference in the wording between Wail of the Banshee and Sleep is the use of "1/creature per level" vs. "one or more creatures per level."
This difference in wording is necessary because Sleep has a maximum HIT DICE limit for its effectiveness, rather than a NUMBER OF CREATURES limits. Note that in the body of the text itself, Sleep includes similar language about who is affected first: low HD creatures before higher, and in the event of ties, those closest to the center are affected first (just as in Wail of the Banshee.)
Neither is a targeted spell.
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, M (fine sand, rose petals, or a live cricket)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area one or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
School necromancy [death, sonic]; Level sorcerer/wizard 9
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one living creature/level within a 40-ft.-radius spread
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance yes
Wail of the banshee is most definitely a targeted spell as written, while sleep most definitely is not. I believe you may have a good grasp of RAI, but RAW contradicts itself.
At first this seems like this was one of Paizo's rules changes from 3E to Pathfinder. Paizo changed 3.5's WotB "Area:One living creature/level within a 40-ft.-radius spread". to Pathfiner's WotB "Target: one living creature/level within a 40-ft.-radius spread". That change does make a large difference to the spell. However, the fact the "Creatures closest to the point of origin are affected first." is still there raises doubts in my mind if selective targeting is the intent of Pathfinder's WotB.
So the change to targeting from area left rules clarifying text in the spell description that no longer applied?
Yeah, I'd like to find out if the 'up to 1 creature per level' is just a limitation on the max creatures affected or a direct change that shifts the spell from an indiscriminate death blast to a highly specific serial killer.
So the change to targeting from area left rules clarifying text in the spell description that no longer applied?
That is the way some people interpret the spell.
Yeah, I'd like to find out if the 'up to 1 creature per level' is just a limitation on the max creatures affected or a direct change that shifts the spell from an indiscriminate death blast to a highly specific serial killer.
Same thing here. I've hit the FAQ button hoping for Paizo to chime in on the subject.
Personally I'm thinking WotB's crippling limitations of being Death descriptor'ed and being Fort Save Negates mean that the spell is flat out worse than Horrid wilting unless the selective targeting is built in.
Sooooo.....
....Yeah.
Has anyone come across a definitive answer to this question?
I have always interpreted the spell as being indescriminate, though I see the switch from Area to Target mentioned above, and so I wonder if the developers intended to make it more useful. Unfortunately, I still see it as being indescriminate, but I hope that Pathfinder was intending to change that.
I was actually googling today to see if it would kill a Witch's familiar. Which would be a little dumb, but maybe it wasn't considered.
I'll flag this for FAQ too.
Edit: Changing my excessive use of the word change @_@
Chiming in for an answer. My party encountered a demilich and the "How much damage does this spell do?" question came up. After investigating, I found this thread and now question the targeting of the spell (didn't have a problem at the table, as the demiliches Wail of the Banshee is an emanation centered on it.(which I find more fitting for this spell anyway.)).
The "Ask James" thread has an answer of "only 10 damage/level, total", meaning if the first guy fails and can take 170-200 damage, everyone else is safe. I'm not sure about this answer, as it makes Wail of the Banshee feel like a glorified Harm. Yes, it's at reach, but it's also save negates! Doesn't feel 9th level to me...
I think the "creatures closest to the point of origin are affected first" line is to clarify if there are MORE creatures in the area than the caster can legally target. EX: 29 goblins in 40ft spread, hit by WotB by 20th level caster. 20 goblins closest to the point of origin save or take 200 damage, the 9 who are furthest away (though, still in the spread) are safe.
Other than that, it's pretty much an AoE harm, worded a little funny, but it's similar in effect to an AoE. You could theoretically hit your allies with it.
Unlike an AoE, WotB won't deal damage to the environment, which is sort of a big deal. It wouldn't automatically target an invisible or stealthed creature that happened to be within the 40 foot spread.
I'm also fairly sure that WotB can do, at 20th level, up to 4000 (200*20) damage when spread across multiple creatures not up to 200, as Poe suggested.
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"answered in the FAQ" when there wasn't a answer in the FAQ was the old way to remove a question from the queue when the question was unclear or there was a consensus between the developers on the right reply.
Currently this thread question is "dead" for the FAQ (at least on the first post). The best option is to make a new thread making the question as clear as possible, and asking people to hit the FAQ button.
If you can make a good FAQ post in a new thread, I will certainly hit the FAQ button.