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As per the magic section, a summoned creature that is slain dissapears and is unavailable for 24 hours, whereupon it reforms on its home plane and can be summoned again.
So, during those intervening 24 hours, what happens if the summoner tries to summon it again? Does he get a poof of smoke and nothing arrives? Does he get a similar but different summon of the same type? Does he get Celestial Badger "B" while Celestial Badger "A" is sleeping off his brush with death?
And depending on if he gets nothing, what happens when he summons multiples with a higher level spell? Does he just get Celestial Badgers "B,C,D, and E" if he rolls well on his 1d4+1?
I recall 3.5s Unearthed Arcana having some rules/options for this, but I was wondering if Pathfinder has actually set it in stone, or at least clay.
Mechanically speaking, that rules does nothing of any real import.
I could cast Summon Monster a half dozen times to get lantern archons A, B, C, D, E, F, & G.
If, A dies during battle, than I can only summon B, C, D, E, F, & G in the next battle that day. However, there is nothing stopping me from also summoning H to make up for the slack.
The only time that I can think of where this would matter is if you sent a summoned monster out on reconnaissance, and it died during its mission. You would not be able to get your information from it for at least 24 hours (as any other summons you conjure would not have the same knowledge as that specific one that died). This rarely is an issue, however, since summons have such a short duration for most, and because there are far better spells for reconnaissance.
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It would be interesting though if the summon monster list was just a set of particular monsters that you summon. So if you have giant ant, boar, lantern archon and you summon the ant and it dies you can't summon giant ant again for 24 hours.
I am not proposing that as a rule but it could be interesting.
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I think this issue also applies if you have summoned a specific creature whose name you know. In that case, yes, he/she/it is unavailable for re-summoning. If you're casting summon monster or the similar spells then you get generic creatures with each casting. Casting another summon after the first batch are dead will just bring a different one (or more).
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I think this issue also applies if you have summoned a specific creature whose name you know. In that case, yes, he/she/it is unavailable for re-summoning. If you're casting summon monster or the similar spells then you get generic creatures with each casting. Casting another summon after the first batch are dead will just bring a different one (or more).
That is a good point especially for the intelligent creatures you can summon.
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I don't think you can specify a specific creature to summon without using a Call spell.
I recall 3.5s Unearthed Arcana having some rules/options for this, but I was wondering if Pathfinder has actually set it in stone, or at least clay.
I can see how the "It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform" section could be taken to imply casters summon creatures unique to their copies of the spells, thus if killed, that option of the summon spell stops being available for 24 hours, but don't think the rest of the rules support that notion.
I think this only matters when you use spells that summon specific creatures, like Gate, or maybe Planar Ally.
Mechanically speaking, that rules does nothing of any real import.
Then why would it be there? Sorry, but it seems that you're just ignoring/bypassing the 24 hours part because it doesn't fit with your interpretation on how you think such a spell works.
Take care,
Harry
RD is correct. Nothing says you summon the same creature every time so it has no real value. In 3.5 under the unearthed arcana rules there were options to summon the same creature, but under the core rules that was never the case.
Below is the variant rule.
Individualized Summoning Lists
In this variant, each spellcaster has a unique list of monsters she can summon with any single summon monster or summon nature’s ally spell. When a spellcaster first gains access to a summon spell, she chooses one monster from the list. This chosen monster is the only monster she can summon with that spell.
I think this only matters when you use spells that summon specific creatures, like Gate, or maybe Planar Ally.
Even then, you could always gate or planar ally a different creature of the same type, if one exists. It may have a different personality than your usual summon, and the GM is free to tweak it as (s)he sees fit (this efreeti is particularly malicious; he has a scythe instead of a falchion, and Critical Focus instead of Improved Initiative). Of course, if you were summoning a particular being for its knowledge or some other being-specific reason, then you're out of luck.
I think this only matters when you use spells that summon specific creatures, like Gate, or maybe Planar Ally.Even then, you could always gate or planar ally a different creature of the same type, if one exists. It may have a different personality than your usual summon, and the GM is free to tweak it as (s)he sees fit (this efreeti is particularly malicious; he has a scythe instead of a falchion, and Critical Focus instead of Improved Initiative). Of course, if you were summoning a particular being for its knowledge or some other being-specific reason, then you're out of luck.
Sure. I mean that if you have a certain ally that you usually summon becouse he is specially helpful, or has some special quality, you can't summon him again. This is more a RP thing that anything else. For example, if you are bargaining with some Succubus, and you are doing some malefic plan with her, infiltrating in the Baron's castle to get info, when she's killed, you lose your ally for 24h. You could summon some other demon, but it won't be that one.
Summon Monster spells, on the other hand, have a very short duration and are very combat-centric. You ussually don't care which Succubus came, you just want her to cast his SLA.
I'm actually going to cast Breath of Life on this thread, because I don't feel the issue has been addressed at all.
The reason I feel this way is because previous posters seem to feel the rule I brought up in my first post only applies to spells like Gate or Planar Binding/Ally, as the generally short duration of a summoning spell makes it supposedly unimportant.
However, Gate and Planar Binding/Ally are Conjuration (Calling) spells, which specifically state the creature is fully brought to the summoner's plane and will truly die if killed, unlike a Conjuration (Summoning) spell.
With this in mind, I would like to re-open this topic for discussion.
I'm actually going to cast Breath of Life on this thread, because I don't feel the issue has been addressed at all.
The reason I feel this way is because previous posters seem to feel the rule I brought up in my first post only applies to spells like Gate or Planar Binding/Ally, as the generally short duration of a summoning spell makes it supposedly unimportant.
However, Gate and Planar Binding/Ally are Conjuration (Calling) spells, which specifically state the creature is fully brought to the summoner's plane and will truly die if killed, unlike a Conjuration (Summoning) spell.
With this in mind, I would like to re-open this topic for discussion.
Well, I believe the (usually variant rule) of the using the summon spells to summon the exact same creature for recon is one big reason why that caveat is in the spell description. Another is the idea that if you spent time buffing a summoned creature (rare, I know) and it dies, the next creature of the same type doesn't have the same buffs.
The way I have always ran it is that in the various planes (inner, outer, material), there is a near infinite number of creatures of each type. When you summon, you _can_ summon a specific creature (assuming it is available), but usually summon a random creature of the correct type. I have used this since the 2nd Ed. Planescape rules show the 'behind-the-scenes' of summoning magic and had a plot on how a mephit the PCs needed kept getting summoned away...
I'm actually going to cast Breath of Life on this thread, because I don't feel the issue has been addressed at all.
The reason I feel this way is because previous posters seem to feel the rule I brought up in my first post only applies to spells like Gate or Planar Binding/Ally, as the generally short duration of a summoning spell makes it supposedly unimportant.
However, Gate and Planar Binding/Ally are Conjuration (Calling) spells, which specifically state the creature is fully brought to the summoner's plane and will truly die if killed, unlike a Conjuration (Summoning) spell.
With this in mind, I would like to re-open this topic for discussion.
Again, for spells like summon monster V, having a monster slain does not prevent you from casting that spell again to summon a different monster of the same type. There's nothing in the rules that say you get the same monster every time by default anyway, ergo, it's reasonable to assume that the rule has no real effect unless you really wanted that exact being.
Likewise, nothing in the rules says you don't get the same monster each time, ergo it's reasonable to assume the rule has a real effect because its actually in the book.
Not meaning to be snarky, just pointing out that argument swings both ways. If you have a rule citation that says you CAN summon a fiendish wolf after your first summoned fiendish wolf is slain, then I will gladly conceed the point.
Until then, we have a rule which states what occurs to monsters slain when summoned, and how that affects subsequent attempts to summon them. I believe more clarification is needed, as there is no text either way to definitively prove either side's position.
Treading out of RAW and into inference and fluff, summoning has often been associated with names and specific individuals, and the differences of the Calling and Summoning subschools strike me as being indicative of something. What that is, I am not sure of, hence the creation and revival of the thread.
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Likewise, nothing in the rules says you don't get the same monster each time, ergo it's reasonable to assume the rule has a real effect because its actually in the book.
Not meaning to be snarky, just pointing out that argument swings both ways. If you have a rule citation that says you CAN summon a fiendish wolf after your first summoned fiendish wolf is slain, then I will gladly conceed the point.
Until then, we have a rule which states what occurs to monsters slain when summoned, and how that affects subsequent attempts to summon them. I believe more clarification is needed, as there is no text either way to definitively prove either side's position.
Treading out of RAW and into inference and fluff, summoning has often been associated with names and specific individuals, and the differences of the Calling and Summoning subschools strike me as being indicative of something. What that is, I am not sure of, hence the creation and revival of the thread.
No, you're wrong about that. What's not stated is not part of the rules.
It's true that if a summoned creature dies, you cannot summon that distinct creature for 24 hours.
It is also true that there is no obligation in the core rulebook to ever summon the same exact creature.
These rules do not conflict with each other in the slightest.
It is not stated in the rules that you can't take actions while dead. Some things are assumed to be common sense. If a (Summoning) spell's creatures can not be summoned for 24 hours if slain, common sense says that applies to creatures summoned with (Summoning) spells.
That said, however, it appears that I am in a very small minority of one. In the light of unanimous disagreement, I will no longer continue the discussion.
It is my hope that, if the rule functions as previous posters have claimed, the developers eventually notice and remove an useless rule that affects no other rules except for a variant rule from 3.5.
Likewise, nothing in the rules says you don't get the same monster each time, ergo it's reasonable to assume the rule has a real effect because its actually in the book.
It has a "real" effect; you can't summon that particular monster. It has no real effect on summon monster V, but it would have a real effect if you had another conjuration (summoning) spell that summoned a particular monster (rather than calling it). This is why the rule exists.
Not meaning to be snarky, just pointing out that argument swings both ways. If you have a rule citation that says you CAN summon a fiendish wolf after your first summoned fiendish wolf is slain, then I will gladly conceed the point.
At the risk of crossing the snark boundary for the sake of demonstration: There's no rule that says that killing a summoned monster doesn't cause a 4d6 fireball to erupt at the place it died, but we assume that it does not. What is not in the rules does not happen (from a RAW standpoint).
Until then, we have a rule which states what occurs to monsters slain when summoned, and how that affects subsequent attempts to summon them. I believe more clarification is needed, as there is no text either way to definitively prove either side's position.
The only way I can see the 24-hour ban rule apply to summon monster V is by equivocation. The description for summon monster I never states that a particular monster is being summoned; if this were the intent, it would undoubtedly include language to the effect. It would likely also include language precluding you from summoning the same kind of monster twice at the same time, but this is not restricted at all--you can spam summon monster V and create a small army of ankylosaurs so long as you have spells remaining. If we interpreted that an individual monster was always summoned, it would require a host of separate rules about summoning multiples of the same monster (including in the same casting, which is explicitly allowed by a single cast of higher-level summon monster spells).
Treading out of RAW and into inference and fluff, summoning has often been associated with names and specific individuals, and the differences of the Calling and Summoning subschools strike me as being indicative of something. What that is, I am not sure of, hence the creation and revival of the thread.
This is understood, but it is irrelevant to that particular line of spells. Again, if the spell specified that you summoned a particular individual, the 24-hour ban would most definitely apply. Calling is a whole other ball game, especially when people try to reconcile its language with various fluff about, e.g., demons being banished to their plane for a hundred years upon death.
It is not stated in the rules that you can't take actions while dead. Some things are assumed to be common sense. If a (Summoning) spell's creatures can not be summoned for 24 hours if slain, common sense says that applies to creatures summoned with (Summoning) spells.
It does apply--to individual creatures. I don't think anybody disputed this. It does not apply to entire species of creature.
It is my hope that, if the rule functions as previous posters have claimed, the developers eventually notice and remove an useless rule that affects no other rules except for a variant rule from 3.5.
The rule is not useless. It prevents you from summoning a particular creature. If you are summoning said creature for a particular reason (e.g., for its knowledge or specific talents), then this affects you. More mechanically, it affects any summoning spell that summons a specific creature. The fact that no such spell seems to exist yet does not preclude their later existence (or their existence via spell research).
That said, if you're the GM, by all means, feel free to introduce the distinction that in your campaign world, summon monster spells can only summon one particular creature for each kind. You'll have to deal with the mess of consequences this produces (the aforementioned problems with summoning multiple ankylosaurs, especially with the same spell). But it is interesting from a campaign flavor standpoint.
It is not stated in the rules that you can't take actions while dead. Some things are assumed to be common sense. If a (Summoning) spell's creatures can not be summoned for 24 hours if slain, common sense says that applies to creatures summoned with (Summoning) spells.
That said, however, it appears that I am in a very small minority of one. In the light of unanimous disagreement, I will no longer continue the discussion.
It is my hope that, if the rule functions as previous posters have claimed, the developers eventually notice and remove an useless rule that affects no other rules except for a variant rule from 3.5.
My understanding is that Pathfinder is meant to be compatible with 3.5 rules and it's varients. That is one possible reason that it reads as it does.
I guess my variant rule quote from 3.5 that limits you to a single monster went unnoticed. Either that or Black Beard chose to ignore it because he has no reply to it.
It is not stated in the rules that you can't take actions while dead. Some things are assumed to be common sense. If a (Summoning) spell's creatures can not be summoned for 24 hours if slain, common sense says that applies to creatures summoned with (Summoning) spells.
That said, however, it appears that I am in a very small minority of one. In the light of unanimous disagreement, I will no longer continue the discussion.
It is my hope that, if the rule functions as previous posters have claimed, the developers eventually notice and remove an useless rule that affects no other rules except for a variant rule from 3.5.
wow really poor arguments if you are dead you have negative HP if you are at negative HP you are unconscious if you are unconscious can take no actions I'm sure there are many rules you missed as such. to make a core rule book with that line of thinking it would take a library and if you infer rules that are not there that is called a house rule and all PC gain a fly speed because it never calls out that PC's do not in fact gain a fly speed. QED
if you summon a wolf and say go down that hallway as far as you can then summon it again a speak with animals it works unless the wolf died in that hallway you cant get him back for this trick there is nothing in the rules to say you cannot summon 2 different wolves as a matter of fact there are some things in there about summoning more then one wolf like say i don't know 1d4+1 wolves so by RAW you can summon multiple wolves just not a dead wolf... unless its a zombie wolf I'm sure there is a way to summon one of those