I understand that some would point out that the Crossbowman is a trap build. With that out of the way, I have a level 6 Crossbowman and it's been doing well.
My character is level 6, I would like advice on opportunity cost for feats leading up to level 11, give or take.
Thus Far I have:
Rapid Reload
Rapid Shot
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Crossbow Mastery
weapon focus Heavy Crossbow
Weapon Spec Heavy Crossbow
Vital Strike
I have two build paths that look attractive to me.
The first focuses on imposing status ailments.
Build 1
7 Iron Will
8 Improved Critical
9 Impact Critical Shot (nice!)
10 Critical Focus
11 Critical Bleeding
The second is more damage oriented.
7 deadly aim +6 damage
8 improved critical
9 devastating strike +4 damage
10 weapon focus greater
11 critical bleeding
There are so many feats to choose from, it's a little bewildering.
Thanks!
It largely depends on your group. Damage is important but I'd try to squeeze Iron Will in there. Its hard to do your job if you are charmed or worse.
I've never been a big fan of bleeding critical. Most fights don't last long enough for the damage to be noticeable. Better off with a status effect that disrupts an enemy's offenses or defenses.
Bleeding is nice if it's not the only Crit feat you have.
It's also situationally awesome, especially for ranged combat, as ranged combat can take longer just by being what it is; if your encounter starts hundreds of feet away, there'll be a few shots exchanged before most melee types get close enough. Also great if you're playing hit & run against superior forces.
Very few games I've played or run have had the formulaic CR-balanced encounter model. Yes, may are balanced, but they tend to be all over the map (which is far more believable).
As for the OP, I noticed that Vital Strike isn't melee only, and that the Crossbowman is designed for getting the most out of readied shots and single shots (which I think is awesome; you're more effective when mobile, and are hell against casters). The entire VS tree would really synergize with this ... more so than Crit feats, as you're not about rolling alot of attack rolls (which deliver crits), but about being a single-shot-interrupting-nightmare.
I suggest building around the idea of move + shoot or move + ready-action (which I've always considered better than the Full Attack). Instead of the full attack, you maximize the use of your class abilities.
As for the OP, I noticed that Vital Strike isn't melee only, and that the Crossbowman is designed for getting the most out of readied shots and single shots (which I think is awesome; you're more effective when mobile, and are hell against casters). The entire VS tree would really synergize with this ...
I agree! I've taken Vital Strike at level 6 and I plan to get the entire chain at some point in development. The build should fair well when I get the drop on casters.
+1 for deadly aim and imp vital strike! you'll also want imp precise shot asap.
i had a crossbowman with a similar build whose focus was locking down casters- he did ok damage normally, but against a party with a caster he'd just ready an action every round to shot the caster when they tried to cast. he did something like 3d8+33 with each readied shot at 11th level- which is not as much as most characters do with a full attack, but good luck making that concentration check... i think maybe one caster we faced was able to get a spell or two off by finding a place with total cover to cast from, but you can pretty much take one caster completely out of any fight (for the 3 rounds they survive...)
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You will also need to look into Cluster shot. As always, DR is the bane of Ranged types. I would suggest Focused Shot, but it requires a standard action and you already are using a standard action with your Vital strike. That and I have no idea what your Intelligence is. Is there any way this build would work with a Double Crossbow? Just curious.
You will also need to look into Cluster shot. As always, DR is the bane of Ranged types. I would suggest Focused Shot, but it requires a standard action and you already are using a standard action with your Vital strike. That and I have no idea what your Intelligence is. Is there any way this build would work with a Double Crossbow? Just curious.
My character has a 16 intelligence, Focused Shot would work well for those times when I need to full attack at close range for the extra damage output.
DR is an issue and Cluster Shot might be a good addition, I'm not sold on it though.
As for the Double Crossbow, I'm not sure it helps any since I have Crossbow Mastery?
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Try to have Deadly Aim there anyway, it's a feat well-spent since you have statistically less damage thanks to not getting composite boni added to your crossbow. Sure it means you'll hit a bit less, but Fighters can easily cover that and indeed are have the beast means to do so via weapon feats and specialization.
Be sure to buy a flaming or other energy effect crossbow as soon as possible as well. Using one gives an average of +3.5 damage per bolt which hits.
If you are going vital strike I would defintately take Devastating Strike, since the damage bonus is multiplied with critical hits.
Deadly Aim is a definite plus since it adds to your damage (and you aren’t likely to miss much by going the vital strike way) and you may wish to take Far Shot to lessen penalties from shooting from far distances... unless your game is a traditional dungeon crawl in which case you wont have the opportunity to get that kind of range.
But whatever you do avoid Prone Shooter, its the trappiest trap ever laid!
Your Mileage However Will Vary
After considering feedback, maybe this.
7 Iron Will
8 Deadly Aim
9 Devastating Strike
10 Impact Critical Shot
11 Improved Precise Shot
I think you should really take advantage of the 19-20 crit range by getting improved critical. I would get rid of impact critical shot, because doubling your crit range is more important than bull rushing on your less frequent crits.
Alright, I'll give that a try.
So this then?
Iron Will
Deadly Aim
Devastating Strike
Improved Critical
Improved Precise Shot
Has getting caught in melee been a concern at all?
I like Point Blank Master a lot.
I am playing the same archetype in the Council of thieves Ap, and some of the feats that have helped me most is.
Point blank master (how usefull this is might be dependant on the type of game you run)
Clustered shots since monsters with DR can be really harsh vs ranged characters.
We are lvl 9 atm but i am looking to pick impoved precise shot up as soon as i hit lvl 11.
staggering and stunning are the big hitters of the condition critial world however tiring and exhausting can be good at a lower level.
depending on your target blinding or deafening could be winners, blinding targetted attackers or deafening spell casters just adds another hoop they have to jump through to get a spell or attack to land.
the snap shot line of feats is probably a must have for a crossbowman, as well as being able to ready and vital strike a caster you can punish him when he attempts to move away or drop some extra blinding critical on the melee coming at your mage.
there are sadly a huge amount of feats that are good for crossbowmen and not really enough slots to put them in, i'd probably get deadly aim asap as its a big damage boost, improved crit as soon as you can then work on the snap shot line of feats and combat reflexes and then worry about critical focus and the condition critical feats once your past level 12, getting improved precise shot as soon as you qualify is probably a must as well.
Perhaps one of my feats should be retrained at level eight to make room for some of the more important feats. For example, Weapon Specialization helped a lot at levels 4-5, but now I'm full attacking less due to Vital Strike.
These suggestions are tremendously helpful guys & gals. I am getting a clearer idea of where I'd like to go.
Retraining weapon spec and maybe even weapon focus depending on your to hit modifiers could be a good move, however weapon spec is a pre req for point blank master which might be a pick for relatively soon as the creatures you fight get bigger reach areas.
Why is it a trap build? What does that mean?
It can mean sub-optimal to downright unplayable, even though it might look good at first glance.
I don't think the Crossbowman is a trap, I'm liking mine.
I like the concept of a crossbowman, and I like the abilities too. I only wish that there was something to make the weapon on par with a bow.
Personally, I don't see a reason not to have Xbows with STR bonuses, like bows do. Make the Xbow require more strength to prime, and it would translate to damage output. That would be one good houserule.
Only because a longbow is almost always a more optimal choice, no offence meant. It doesn't require a feat to reload it quickly, and you qualify for manyshot.
I thuoght that it was more due to the face that the Crossbowman's only 'damage advantage', Deady Eye, can only be applied to one attack each round and cant be used with Vital Strike.
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Only because a longbow is almost always a more optimal choice, no offence meant. It doesn't require a feat to reload it quickly, and you qualify for manyshot.I thuoght that it was more due to the face that the Crossbowman's only 'damage advantage', Deady Eye, can only be applied to one attack each round and cant be used with Vital Strike.
Not quite sure what feat Deady Eye is, but Deadly Aim can be applied to Xbows.
Longbow:
Requires fewer feats to use with iteratives and/or rapid shot, can also apply manyshot. Also can add Str mod to damage with composite bow.
Crossbow:
More feats to use with extra shots in a turn (rapid reload/crossbow mastery), fewer ways to add extra damage to the base attack.
Both use a lot of the same feats in their optimized routines, but longbow plays to higher Str PCs; while Xbow works better, in some ways, for lower Str PCs.
Feats:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Weapon Focus
Rapid Shot (much earlier feasible option for bowman than Xbowman)
Weapon Specialization
Rapid Reload (Xbow only)
Crossbow Mastery (Xbow only)
Deadly Aim
Focused Shot (more optimal for high Int, normal load speed Xbowmen)
Point-Blank Master
Improved Precise Shot
Clustered Shots
Snap Shot
Improved Snap Shot
Greater Snap Shot
Manyshot (bow only)
I am sure I am missing some of the feats....
Only because a longbow is almost always a more optimal choice, no offence meant. It doesn't require a feat to reload it quickly, and you qualify for manyshot.I thuoght that it was more due to the face that the Crossbowman's only 'damage advantage', Deady Eye, can only be applied to one attack each round and cant be used with Vital Strike.
That's part of it. The larger part is that the main advantage an archer (or crossbowman, with rapid reload / crossbow master) has to begin with is the ability to always full attack, pretty much. Crossbowman archeytpe takes away a whole bunch of potentially genuinely useful Fighter class features and replaces them with a combat option that goes comppletely at odds with the "optimal" way of fighting would be.
So you're basically losing stuff for no gain.
That's the perspective if you're looking to optimize your crossbow use, which honestly even w/ all the Crossbowman's benefits for readied shots...it's still inferior to a full attack. If you want to make a readied action archer type, then I guess it's your cup of tea. But to a newbie it's most definitely a trap archetype. It lures you into forfeiting useful class features so you can utilize an inferior combat technique.
Only because a longbow is almost always a more optimal choice, no offence meant. It doesn't require a feat to reload it quickly, and you qualify for manyshot.I thuoght that it was more due to the face that the Crossbowman's only 'damage advantage', Deady Eye, can only be applied to one attack each round and cant be used with Vital Strike.That's part of it. The larger part is that the main advantage an archer (or crossbowman, with rapid reload / crossbow master) has to begin with is the ability to always full attack, pretty much. Crossbowman archeytpe takes away a whole bunch of potentially genuinely useful Fighter class features and replaces them with a combat option that goes comppletely at odds with the "optimal" way of fighting would be.
So you're basically losing stuff for no gain.
That's the perspective if you're looking to optimize your crossbow use, which honestly even w/ all the Crossbowman's benefits for readied shots...it's still inferior to a full attack. If you want to make a readied action archer type, then I guess it's your cup of tea. But to a newbie it's most definitely a trap archetype. It lures you into forfeiting useful class features so you can utilize an inferior combat technique.
I would counter that the advantages an Archer have are in damage only.
A Crossbowman can have more mobility, the chance to fire from stealth whilst remaining hidden, a higher critical rate, and they can dump strength with no adverse combat loss.
I was using "archer" as a general term for a guy who uses a projectile weapon. My comparison was not bow vs. crossbow.
It was "Regular Fighter full attacking with a crossbow" vs. "Crossbowman archetype Fighter using readied action shots with a crossbow."
I was using "archer" as a general term for a guy who uses a projectile weapon. My comparison was not bow vs. crossbow.
It was "Regular Fighter full attacking with a crossbow" vs. "Crossbowman archetype Fighter using readied action shots with a crossbow."
Archery in DnD and Pathfinder generally assume standing in one place, full attacking to gain the most damage. Breaking away from the full attack has benefits that may arguably be superior in some conditions.
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Only because a longbow is almost always a more optimal choice, no offence meant. It doesn't require a feat to reload it quickly, and you qualify for manyshot.I thuoght that it was more due to the face that the Crossbowman's only 'damage advantage', Deady Eye, can only be applied to one attack each round and cant be used with Vital Strike.That's part of it. The larger part is that the main advantage an archer (or crossbowman, with rapid reload / crossbow master) has to begin with is the ability to always full attack, pretty much. Crossbowman archeytpe takes away a whole bunch of potentially genuinely useful Fighter class features and replaces them with a combat option that goes comppletely at odds with the "optimal" way of fighting would be.
So you're basically losing stuff for no gain.
That's the perspective if you're looking to optimize your crossbow use, which honestly even w/ all the Crossbowman's benefits for readied shots...it's still inferior to a full attack. If you want to make a readied action archer type, then I guess it's your cup of tea. But to a newbie it's most definitely a trap archetype. It lures you into forfeiting useful class features so you can utilize an inferior combat technique.
I would counter that the advantages an Archer have are in damage only.
A Crossbowman can have more mobility, the chance to fire from stealth whilst remaining hidden, a higher critical rate, and they can dump strength with no adverse combat loss.
What feats give a crossbowman more mobility than a longbowman? I'm also wondering about the firing whilst remaining hidden; is there some crossbow-only feat that improves stealth or sniping ability?
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What feats give a crossbowman more mobility than a longbowman? I'm also wondering about the firing whilst remaining hidden; is there some crossbow-only feat that improves stealth or sniping ability?
I think they are referencing the Crossbowman FIghter archetype, from the APG, which has a 9th level ability which lets them add half their Fighter level to their Stealth when sniping:
Quick Sniper (Ex): At 9th level, a crossbowman gains a
bonus equal to 1/2 his fighter level on Stealth checks when
sniping. When he is hit with a ranged attack, he can shoot
his crossbow at his attacker as an immediate action if it is
loaded. This ability replaces weapon training 2.
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PFS legal. Trick is to ignore all the also-ran feats and just concentrate on making Rapid Shot reliable to the point you get it off nearly every round.
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"Death From Above"
STR:07
DEX:14
CON:14
INT:12
WIS+17 (all bumps)
CHA:14
Traits: Birthmark, World Traveler (+1 Kn:Local & class)
01 pala1 [Divine Hunter][Precise Shot], Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload
02 cler1 [Crusader:(Abadar|Travel)][move+10][WF:light crossbow], 1st
03 cler2 Rapid Shot
04 cler3 WIS>18, 2nd
05 figh1 [Cad], Channel Smite, Guided Hand
06 cler4
07 cler5 [Shield Focus], Deadly Aim, 3rd
08 cler6 (BAB6)
09 cler7 Improved Initiative, 4th
10 cler8
11 cler9 Quicken Spell, 5th
12 cler0 [Greater Weapon Focus:light crossbow]
Tactics: Shoot things while flying. Channel Smite + Inflict Serious Wounds touch-attack is a nasty surprise for anyone who gets you in melee.
I just recently put together a crossbowman build for Pathfinder Society Organized Play. I decided to focus exclusively on the Deadeye ability, maximizing the amount of damage I can do with a single attack. Here are the feats I chose (all for use with a light crossbow) and the order I will take them as the character levels:
Level 1: Point Blank Shot
Fighter 1: Rapid Reload
Human bonus feat: Weapon Focus
F2: Precise Shot
L3: Deadly Aim
F4: Weapon Specialization
L5: Weapon Finesse (for use with armor spikes for Attacks of Op)
F6: Vital Strike
L7: Point Blank Master
F8: Improved Critical
L9: Devastating Strike
F10: Greater Weapon Focus
L11: Improved Vital Strike
F12: Greater Weapon Specialization
With a starting Dex of 18 and modest gear gains, a single Deadeye Shot attack at level 12 will do 3d8+20 damage. I think it should be an interesting and fun concept to play as long as I can make smart choices about wording my readied actions and using 5-foot steps to reload safely.
I'd get Crossbow Master (Heavy Xbow). Use retraining at Fighter 8 if necessary to switch from using a light xbow if necessary. Also, IMO every archer/crossbowman should get Imp. Precise Shot as soon as they can, or 11th level in your case.
Update!
Danny, the Crossbowman, has advanced to level eight and is on the cusp of ninth. The concept does what I set out to achieve thus far.
The ranged damage is very reliable although moderate when compared to other builds. Casters have much to fear.
Danny is at his best when using terrain for hit and run tactics. If he is the only one doing damage, then his middling DPR matters much less. Groups that enjoy, and are able to work as a team, will make the most out of the Crossbowman's abilities. Battles last slightly longer, but individual turns move much more quickly. This is due to rolling a single attack via Vital Strike.
The one trick pony trap that fighters can fall into has been avoided completely. Danny, with his high intelligence handles problems that would stymy the typical meat headed fighter. My Crossbowman did not need the intelligence to be jacked to function well, but it's liberating that I could do it while still contributing in combat.
For those GM's using the massive damage rules, the Crossbowman can easily achieve it by mid levels, something to think about.