So I am running an E6 campaign and considering using the Armor as DR system found in Ultimate Combat.
I have looked at the system before and rejected it because I dont believe is scales to the higher levels well but I think that it may be a good system in the more limited E6 environment.
was wondering if any one had ever tried it or had any comments or suggestions.
So I am running an E6 campaign and considering using the Armor as DR system found in Ultimate Combat.
I have looked at the system before and rejected it because I dont believe is scales to the higher levels well but I think that it may be a good system in the more limited E6 environment.
was wondering if any one had ever tried it or had any comments or suggestions.
I would suggest looking at the Unearthed Arcana Book in 3.5. It had an armor as DR alternate rule, but that one also gave bonuses to AC depending on class, which I feel is woefully missing in the Pathfinder Version. I am planning on running a campaign with armor as DR in the near future, and that's what I'm planning on doing.
do you think that a simple modification could be made to balance agaisnt this... such as giving pierce weapons a benefit against DR.
or maybe giving slash a benefit against AC. the idea being that pierce weapons puncture armor but weapons you swing like a sword are harder to evade. blunt would get a bonus to damage... like increased str bonus.
or do you think that this will inevitably lead to too much rules creep.
I have some experience running d20 modern under the raw Armor as DR (A/DR) with the class scaling AC bonus. Notes on the results.
It can create a different feeling to how the game operated. It was very interesting having the armored guy basically being immune to low end weaponry. Grenades and spells and the like still ruin his day, but average small arms fire was no longer a potentially fatal threat. One solution to the invulnerability was an reworked rule on armor piercing weaponry that they could deal a certain portion of damage through the armor. In this case, armor piercing bullets were certain to at least deal 2 damage. This constantly ticking up damage did a lot to curb the behavior of attempting to tank a horde of mooks. My own character was a lightly armored grappler and power attack melee combatant. Of note, it quickly became apparent that power attack is even more important here than in regular Armor as AC land.
Options for Pathfinder I might suggest is let pierce a flat minimum through armor, and have blunt do some negation of a portion of armor or else the flat damage through armor. Blunt weapons already as a general rule deal subpar damage, it would be a boon to the class of weapon for it to have some kind of armor penetration. Consider that maces were some of the foremost weapons for dealing with armored combatants.
Looking at it another way, slashing has to deal with full armor, pierce can penetrate mail but struggles with plate, bludgeons care least about what armor you wear. In the case of slashing and pierce, worse armor penetration is the cost you pay for better critical ranges and multipliers. (Ultimate combat eastern weapons Tetsubo breaks the pattern notably.) And lets not forget energy enchants ignore the DR.
As for rules creep, I always found such things fun when implemented well. If the players are game for it, give it a shot. What is the worst that will happen, mid campaign erasing DR and putting it back in AC?
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Let finessable weapons allow you to use your dex to lower the DR.
For example, if you are using a rapier and have weapon finesse and your dex is 14 then you can use your +2 attribute bonus to make the DR effectivly lower for you.
It gives dex only characters something without taking away from strenght.
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Is it really a problem? The only class it could seriously hinder (rogue) will be more than happy to be able to land sneak attacks more often due to the lower AC. It may even make them more effective. You may also rule that precision damage bypass DR. Seems logical.
Other low weapon damage dealers usually are magic users, and nerfing magic users a little bit does not seem a bad thing to me. If it botters you, just let crossbows bypass DR (hey, they were conceived just for that! Historical accuracy, yeah!) as their dammage output is low, anyway. And you can easily create one or two spells that lower DR for a few rounds.
Let the martial classes shine a little. I don't think it's bad.
How about this;
1. Assign a 'Penetration Value' to weapons based on the following cumulative menu;
Damage Type:
Slash 0
Pierce 1
Blunt 2
Melee:
Unarmed 0
Light or Natural (Small-) 0
One Handed, Natural (Med+) 1
Two Handed 2
Ranged:
Thrown 1
Projectile 2
Heavy Projectile 3
So for instance a Heavy Crossbow firing standard bolts penetrates 4 points of DR/Armour and a Bastard Sword penetrates 1.
Armours gain a Shield Bonus equal to +1 for Light, +2 for Medium and +3 for Heavy and convert the rest of the normal AC bonus into DR/Armour and introduce the following Dodge Bonus progression:
+1 DB per 2 BAB
So for instance a breastplate gives +2SB and 4 DR/Armour and a Chain Shirt +1SB and 3 DR/Armour.
Enhancement bonuses progress as follows for weapons/armour;
+1 - +1 Att Bonus or +1 SB
+2 - +1 Armour Pen or +1 DR/Armour
+3 - +1 Att Bonus or +1 SB
+4 - +1 Armour Pen or +1 DR/Armour
+5 - +1 Att Bonus or +1 SB
+6 - +1 Armour Pen or +1 DR/Armour
Armour based AC bonuses from other sources (Bracers, Mage Armour, Natural Armour) alternate between SB and DR starting the progression with DB, so a Mage Armour spell would give +2SB and +2 DR/Armour; Bracers of AC 3 - +2 SB and +1 DR/Armour. Force effects simply add their full total bonus to Touch AC as Deflection Bonus.
Monk AC bonuses are all classes as Dodge bonus.
Adamantine weapons add +1 Penetration for Light, +2 Pen for One handed (or Improved Unarmed) and +3 Pen for 2 Handed. Armours progress similarly - +1 DR/Armour for Light, +2 for Medium and +3 for Heavy.
Weapon Finesse - Allows the substitution of Dex for Str as the bonus to hit for any melee weapon
Improved Weapon Finesse - Allows the wielder of a weapon using finesse techniques to sacrifice attack bonus for + penetration the same as Power Blow increases damage
Sneak Attack - gains a penetration bonus equal to number of extra damage dice
Improved Sunder - in addition to it's normal effects, anyone with this feat gains a +1 penetration bonus with any weapon wielded
Improved Unarmed - in addition to it's normal effects, anyone with this feat gains the Improved Weapon Finesse feat bonuses with Monk Weapons or Unarmed attacks for free
I did something like this for several game sessions, but armor provided DR against nonlethal damage. Against lethal damage, the DR number "converted" that much lethal damage into nonlethal damage.
For example, let's say a chain shirt had DR 4/lethal. The wearer would have little reason to fear many nonlethal attacks. If someone punched him, he'd likely ignore the attack entirely. If someone hacked him with a battle axe for 10 points of lethal damage, he'd take 6 lethal and 4 nonlethal instead.
In combat, PCs tended to get hit more often, because ACs were often lower, but armored PCs were more likely to end up unconscious and not dying. Thus, combats tended to be less lethal.
nice ideas all.
I like the idea that pierce gets a minimum to get through. also really like the idea of finess weapons lowering the DR bassed on their attack.
I read this as. If i need a 20 to hit and my attack roll adds up to 24 I lower the DR of the opponent by 4 for the purpouse of that attack.
however I think i will do it a different way.
I am looking at a few ideas but what i think i will do is apply rules for blunts, pierce, light slash (swords) and heavy slash (axes)
I will try to make them simple and easy to remember but different enough to encourage players to focus on one type or another as a prefference.
light slash for example will probably be the baseline. all is normal.
pierce will have a system of penetrating armor.
blunt will have a system of overcoming armor with raw str bonus damage.
and axes will possibly work more like blunts than swords.
Normal. thanks for your explanation of how it played out.
I am wondering how things work for they hybrids. in other words how this effects heavy armor users and how it effects heavy dodge users seems pretty clear... but how does it effect those that wear medium armor and get say +3 dex bonus and DR3. do they tend to fall below the curve or rise above it?
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Here is what an old system called Stormbringer had it. Armor absorbed a variable amount, more realistically depicting getting hit in different parts of the armor.
Leather Armor: 1d6-1
Full Plate Armor w/helmet: 1d10+2 (penalty to hearing when used)
Full Plate Armor w/o helm: 1d10-1
Half Plate and Barbarian Armor: 1d8-1
This was also used in a system that had no levels and was purely based on skill percents. You also had a static amount of hit points based on your size stat and constitution. Very deadly
nice ideas all.
I like the idea that pierce gets a minimum to get through. also really like the idea of finess weapons lowering the DR bassed on their attack.
[. . .]
I am looking at a few ideas but what i think i will do is apply rules for blunts, pierce, light slash (swords) and heavy slash (axes)
I will try to make them simple and easy to remember but different enough to encourage players to focus on one type or another as a prefference.
light slash for example will probably be the baseline. all is normal.
pierce will have a system of penetrating armor.
blunt will have a system of overcoming armor with raw str bonus damage.
and axes will possibly work more like blunts than swords.
Sorry for the Wall Of Text behavior that I have. Just some other ideas
It takes a super heavy duty slashing weapon to deal with basically any armor made of metal. You basically are trying to club someone to death by slashing at them in their armor. Depending on the armor certainly, you would have to aim slashes at open points in the armor, as you will not be slicing through mail, metal lamellar or the king of them all, plate. Greatswords would be in the class of weapon to possibly get some kind of killing blow through some kind of armor. Plate is basically invincible. Put another way, the armor will be fine even if the blow kills the wearer. To try to blade through metal armor basically needs something supernatural, be it magic swords or metahuman strength.
Put another way, if you deal damage with a common slashing weapon against plate armor or mail, it will be non-lethal. With the great sword, it gets to deal lethal damage if damage gets through at all.
Leather armor pretty much gets hacked through fairly well in comparison, and would not negate attacks to so strong a degree.
Piercing attacks become the solution to armor largely because they can be more accurately guided into the weak points in armor, in the case of thrusting with swords, or else being so much more strongly able to penetrate plate and punch through mail in the case of picks and spears. Greatswords are quite devastating thrusting weapons, essentially filling the role of can opener. In this class of weapon, I would almost say depending on the weapon it can either ignore a portion of the DR or get the option to treat the armor as AC again and deal full damage through the armor. A spear might punch through the armor, a "rapier" will need to get thrust into the armpit or some other lightly armored area. Without authority, I suspect a lot of combat axes do fit into this category, as axes for war are very much thinner than felling axes. Something thicker like a tree felling axe might be treated closer to the below.
Bludgeoning weapons just shock right through whatever you are wearing. Leather is not terribly helpful against a mace. A mail coif will not keep your skull from getting cracked open. Bracers will not prevent your forearms from being shattered. Against bludgeoning one needs padding. A certain degree of padding is assumed in about every kind of armor, but really it is quite hard to negate a strong war hammer strike.
Youtube resources of interest.
Arrow penetration vs. plate armor
Dealing with armor in melee. Notice the individual half-swording to penetrate the plate.
[. . .]
I am wondering how things work for they hybrids. in other words how this effects heavy armor users and how it effects heavy dodge users seems pretty clear... but how does it effect those that wear medium armor and get say +3 dex bonus and DR3. do they tend to fall below the curve or rise above it?
Well, look at it this way. He is able to shug off the mild amount of damage he takes from regular strikes, while still retaining the ability to occasionally avoid all damage. Mr. Fullplate infantry does not stand much chance against a lancer with spirited charge. Mr. Medium Armor has a much better shot of not getting penetrated by a lance. Hefty armor allows longer lifespan against low end attacks at the expense of ability to avoid those extreme damage attacks. Medium armor is a good compromise for an adventurer. Also bear in mind touch attacks. Mr. Fullplate may rethink his life after being the target of disintegrate.
I would suggest looking at the Unearthed Arcana Book in 3.5. It had an armor as DR alternate rule, but that one also gave bonuses to AC depending on class, which I feel is woefully missing in the Pathfinder Version. I am planning on running a campaign with armor as DR in the near future, and that's what I'm planning on doing.So I am running an E6 campaign and considering using the Armor as DR system found in Ultimate Combat.
I have looked at the system before and rejected it because I dont believe is scales to the higher levels well but I think that it may be a good system in the more limited E6 environment.
was wondering if any one had ever tried it or had any comments or suggestions.
Mmm, yeah I remember arcana. I've really been tempted to run with it. The crux of the matter of course, is making it work, and assigning proper values. Perhaps don't make it too high, and allow sneak attacks or such to get around most of it.
Few options
Dark souls makes it pretty awful, it doesn't do that much for how much it can slow you down.
Warband uses a soak dr sort of thing, but some weapons go through it pretty easily, like piercing weapons.
So you could make it average, I wouldn't follow the ac bonus for the dr, and make bashing and piercing weapons a little better at going through. Make picks and maces more useful.
Also allow called shots to ignore if there is an opening.
I am reluctant to allow called shots. it just leads to all kinds of annoyances. but I like your other ideas.
Normal. I understand where your coming from but am trying to keep the rules as tight and easy to remember as possible.
I am not going to make things TOO complicated. I want to make simple rules for AC and DR (which I think the rules in UC are pretty solid. and I am trying to work out simple rules for weapons modification.
at most I want 3 to 6 categories for melee damage. Slash - Pierce - Blunt with the possible additions of hybrids (axes), Ranged Bow, and Ranged crowsbow/gun
My initial thought is this.
Slash - no damage change but a bonus to hit. this will make slash the weapon of choice against low armored highly agile opponents
Blunt - No bonus to hit but a bonus to damage based on STR this will allow blunt weapons to power through DR but allows nimble characters to survive on their evasion.
Pierce - No bonus to hit or damage but a penetration bonus against all forms of armor. this makes pierce generally able to deal damage more often in all cases but never as much raw damage as slash and blunt
I would like to add Hybrids but am not sure how to do it in a simple way... lower str bonus but a little bit of penetration maybe?
Ranged modifications would be something like
Bow type attacks get no change (they are already fast, at best they will get a penetration bonus based heavily on range) wanna shoot fast? Bow
crossbows (and guns should I allow them) would get a good penetration bonus based on the size of the weapon. hopefully this will make crossbows a more viable weapon without significantly changing them... want to penetrate armor but shoot less? Crossbow.
However. In the above situation am I achieving balance? or am I giving a significant bonus or penalty to attack or defense? (I would kind of rather err on the side of benefiting armor)
also... even if everything above is balanced out correctly... can it be done in a simple enough manner to ensure I am not swamping my players with too many home brew rules?
I wonder if the whole dex thing is actually an issue. The whole point of armor as DR is to get a little bit closer to reality in terms of how weapon combat works. A rapier isnt gonna do a damned thing to a man in full plate no matter who is weilding it. It seems right to me then that finesse fighters would be negated against heavy armor in a system meant to move towards that kind of feel in combat.
E6 tend to be low powered. I go with 1,2 and 3 for each armour type.Since E6 is intended to 'stay simple' in some circles, Light classified armor is DR1
Medium Dr 3
Heavy DR5Done.
If you reduce the benefit to something that low you essentially eliminate the heavily armored low dex combatant as a concept. High dex characters, probably monks in particular are the only martial characters who can acheive decent defenses.
E6 tend to be low powered. I go with 1,2 and 3 for each armour type.
Or use E6 and make the DR variable based on armor type and wearer's BAB:
Light armor: +1/3 BAB
Medium armor: +1/2 BAB
Heavy armor: BAB
:)
In the idea of keeping things simple, why not just house-rule a feat like "Clustered Shots". Something like:
"Clustered stabs" (name pending)
Weapon Finesse, Bab 6+ (or maybe lower?)
When using a full round attack action, damage is totaled before applying damage reduction.
Ya sure, its pretty much required, but so is Power Attack in this kind of campaign.
i was toying around with a dex based to hit system that had built in DR. Dex added to the To Hit, but Str added to DMG, surpassing the AC avoided the DR. So if you're accurate you can get around the DR, point for point. If you're not super accurate, you power through it...if you can hit.
Makes for more balanced characters.
Also consider adding base reflex saves to the AC. Should work quite well for E6.
They already get the AC from the armour to compensate. DR3 for plate doesnt sound like much but a) It adds up - thats one of the reasons the Invulnerable Rager is so popular b) Its E6, the maximum amount of HD is 6. Too high a DB makes it too effective.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/variants/armorAsDamageRed uction.html
You do not get the AC from armor under the rule being bantered about. The full balance of AC that would ordinarily be gained instead becomes DR. As such, you are trading the ability to avoid damage for the ability to negate a portion of damage. Also, as DR is no help against energy damage it is in part a little more dangerous as you can be hit more easily with some energy effects. Rogues also see a huge increase in damage output, as their strikes will be landing far and away more frequently than normal.