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How important is Positive Energy channeling for a support Cleric?
I'm playing a Healing and Liberation Domains Human Cleric in a lv 10 adventure with 20 point buy, lv 10 starting gold and the following stats after items and leveling:
Str 13
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 20
Cha 12
Feats:
Heavy Armor Proficiency
Alertness
Improve Initiative
Combat Casting
Extend Spell
Forge Ring
Problem is some of my fellow players just can't accept that I don't pick up Selective Channeling, or that I'm not focusing on using channeling to heal them.
I made this Cleric with a focus on survivability and defenses. After all I got to be alive to keep the rest of my party alive.
Given that Channeling does not scale as well as damage, is it still a must at lv 10?
This character is only 1 game in and I can still tweak it. So should I change say 14 Cha for 12 Int? and maybe drop Extend Spell for Selective Channeling?
I'd say it is never a must, soon the heal spell will take care of most of your in combat healing, using a feat for a 4 times per day channeling of 5d6 (roughly 17-18 hp) is quite an investment considering it is very viable to use after combat. In many cases it just isnt worth using in combat all that much since the hurt focuses on one or two characters.
Heavy Armor proficiency isn't absolutely needed, you could wear a mithral fullplate just fine with a -3 penalty to hit, depending on what you want to do, your strength is a bit low for any serious combat anyway.
Wearing a mithral breastplate isnt all that bad either, it will be roughly having a +5 (agile)mithral breastplate and a belt of agility +4 will end up being about 10k more expensive and have 1 less AC, but you end up with +2 on reflex saves, initiative, dexterity based ability/skill checks, higher ranged Attack bonus and better CDM, as well as increasing your touch AC more with one more feat to spend.
While AC is important I think a lower CDM might get you killed sooner, so I would suggest investing that feat in defensive combat training to increase your CDM up by 3, or dodge feat to increase CDM and (touch)AC by 1.
Swapping out int and cha is not a bad choice, especially if you increase charisma more with a headband of wis/cha, possibly combining with a phylactery of positive channeling to make you quite a capable channeler, I find it especially useful when the party is hit by area attacks suffer bleeding effects or are down into the negatives.
Giving up extend spell isnt that terrible, a rod of metamagic can probably take care of your needs just fine, for long lasting spell you might as well cast it two times and forget about extending.
Reach spell might also be a useful addition though again a rod of metamagic might do the job just fine, having a heal/cure spell convert to a ranged touch keeps you out off trouble and can save you precious move actions.
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Thanks for the advice.
The problem I'm facing is that my fellow players believe that all "healing" clerics MUST have Selective Channeling and that Channeling is a must to heal in combat. But I'm not sure that's true...
I threw the numbers around, but due to the gold limit I can't pull it off. Not to mention my belt is giving me +2 to Con and Dex, upgrading it to the next tier is too costly.
The phylactery of positive channeling is something I totally overlooked!
Problem is... I already wearing a headband of +2 Wis, Cha and Int and the phylactery is also a headband.
I can't use Ioun stones, as our DM limits all items/spells/classes etc to only Core, Adv and the 2 Ultimate books. Sigh
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If your fellow players think it is so critical they can make their own cleric. Until then they can have a big cup of Shut the Hell Up.
The cleric in our group uses channeling as a group heal after battle. It lets him save his heals for combat. In a pinch he uses his channels in combat. This works especially well against opponents who are not living creatures as they don't get healed anyway. Just like fireball you can sometimes position yourself to hit only PCs with channel.
Selective channeling is absolutely unnecessary in most game. In really deadly games where the cleric has to do a lot of healing it might be really nice. Otherwise, not so much.
I can't use Ioun stones, as our DM limits all items/spells/classes etc to only Core, Adv and the 2 Ultimate books. Sigh
Ioun stones are from the Core Rulebook.
No, Selective Channeling is not a must -- and like karkon, I agree channeling is best saved for group healing after fights, not used during. For channeling feats, I'd prioritize... well, really most of them before Selective Channeling, and especially Improved or Extra Channeling.
If it suits your concept and you like the feat, take it. If you're able to heal your party when they need it without the feat, don't let them bully you into a character build you're unhappy with. It doesn't sound to me like you're unwilling to heal, just that a few of your players have a bad case of You're Playing Your Character Wrong, which they need to get over. I'd chat with the GM and ask for help if they're being truly annoying about it.
As an aside, I agree with Remmco that heavy armor proficiency is a bit of a waste of a feat (unless you're a dwarf and thus your speed doesn't change). As a cleric, I'd rather wear mithral breastplate, which I'm proficient in but acts as light armor in all other ways, and thus have full 30' movement -- easier to get into place indeed to heal, channel, and pummel things.
IMHO: the value of channeling depends a lot on the size of your group.
4 PCs, including you? Channeling becomes mostly a way to save spells or wand charges between combats.
9 PCs including you? Channeling starts to look really good a lot of the time, and Selective Channeling starts to look like a must.
Thanks for the advice.
The problem I'm facing is that my fellow players believe that all "healing" clerics MUST have Selective Channeling and that Channeling is a must to heal in combat. But I'm not sure that's true...
I threw the numbers around, but due to the gold limit I can't pull it off. Not to mention my belt is giving me +2 to Con and Dex, upgrading it to the next tier is too costly.
The phylactery of positive channeling is something I totally overlooked!
Problem is... I already wearing a headband of +2 Wis, Cha and Int and the phylactery is also a headband.
I can't use Ioun stones, as our DM limits all items/spells/classes etc to only Core, Adv and the 2 Ultimate books. Sigh
You do not always need selective channeling anyway, you are fine in combat with undead since you cant heal them and otherwise it is often possible to just to exclude some or most injured foes, catching uninjured opponents in your channel range isnt a problem at all.
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Thanks for the suggestions.
Quick question, is 14 Cha (with items) worth getting Selective Summoning?
Any inputs/ experiences on this is welcome.
Also some extra info:
My party has a 2hd High Damage Fighter, a Bluster-build Sorceress and a high stealth rogue. So damage wise we are well covered. My focus is more on keeping the party up and going, hence the Liberation and Healing domains.
To the original question. I would call selective channel very nice but not mandetory.
Quick test, in the fights you've had so far have you ever not channeled healing because you didn't want to heal a bad guy or have you ever channeled healing even though it healed a bad guy?
If yes, then consider it for you next feat.
If no, then you might not need it.
... Quick question, is 14 Cha (with items) worth getting Selective Summoning? ...
I assume you mean selective channel with a 14 charisma. It is borderline. I could easily make a case either way. I would probably take it myself, but I like the channeling abilities.
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I already wearing a headband of +2 Wis, Cha and Int and the phylactery is also a headband.
I'm curious as to why you went this route? Wisdom is such an important stat for a cleric it seems on the surface that you would be better off with just a +4 Wis item, especially as channeling doesn't seem to be a priority in your build.
I wouldn't take Selective Channeling just because your party demands it. Honestly, 17.5 (on average) healing at level 10 is almost nothing during battle anyway. You can get almost as much by casting mass cure light wounds and that spell's hardly optimal in most situations.
When it comes to a Cleric you have two builds. You build for combat or for casting. If you go for Combat you probably are not channeling a lot. If you go more of caster build who stay out of combat casting from the rear channeling is good thing. Based on you stats and feat choice I'm not sure which way you are leaning to.
Channeling is a very nice ability and Selective Channeling a very good agument to the ability. Honestly I think it should have been a part of the ability to begin with. We have a cleric in the game I run with a 22 Cha, Selective and Quicken Channeling. He also has Augment Healing from 3.5. I house ruled that it added +2 HP per d6 of healing. At the moment he is at 4d6 so an extra 8 points of healing per channel. He usually keeps the party up with his channels and wands in between fights. It saves the rest his spells for combat.
However I'm of the opinion that a part should never expect another player to take certain spells. They can ask of course but to expect it crosses the line. You should play the character you want to play. If they want more healing then they need to roll a Life Oracle or invest in UMD and wands of healing.
What you take is up to you so don't worry about the other players too much, but selective channeling and the Quick Channel feat are a nice combo (requires 5 ranks in knowledge religion) as it lets you selectively channel as a move action and do something interesting as a standard action. It does use 2 channel uses to do though, so you'd want 6+ uses per day to make the most of it (via Charisma or Extra Channel feat).
If you go down the big channeling route you could also look at Versatile Channeler to do both positive and negative channeling, but it's very deity dependent. The other players probably won't see it coming though...
My 9th level cleric does just fine with 14 Charisma, selective channeling and quick channel (wrong deity for versatile), plus 1 extra channel from a trait for 6 total. It gets used in a large percentage of fights that aren't trivial, but that's because the move acion is a freebie when my spells have range anyway, and I use a wand of CLW out of combat for the majority of healing. If I didn't have Quick Channel but still needed to channel I'd get rather bored in combat. :-)
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To the original question. I would call selective channel very nice but not mandetory.
Quick test, in the fights you've had so far have you ever not channeled healing because you didn't want to heal a bad guy or have you ever channeled healing even though it healed a bad guy?
If yes, then consider it for you next feat.
If no, then you might not need it.... Quick question, is 14 Cha (with items) worth getting Selective Summoning? ...I assume you mean selective channel with a 14 charisma. It is borderline. I could easily make a case either way. I would probably take it myself, but I like the channeling abilities.
What you take is up to you so don't worry about the other players too much, but selective channeling and the Quick Channel feat are a nice combo (requires 5 ranks in knowledge religion) as it lets you selectively channel as a move action and do something interesting as a standard action. It does use 2 channel uses to do though, so you'd want 6+ uses per day to make the most of it (via Charisma or Extra Channel feat).
If you go down the big channeling route you could also look at Versatile Channeler to do both positive and negative channeling, but it's very deity dependent. The other players probably won't see it coming though...
My 9th level cleric does just fine with 14 Charisma, selective channeling and quick channel (wrong deity for versatile), plus 1 extra channel from a trait for 6 total. It gets used in a large percentage of fights that aren't trivial, but that's because the move acion is a freebie when my spells have range anyway, and I use a wand of CLW out of combat for the majority of healing. If I didn't have Quick Channel but still needed to channel I'd get rather bored in combat. :-)
Channeling is a very nice ability and Selective Channeling a very good agument to the ability. Honestly I think it should have been a part of the ability to begin with. We have a cleric in the game I run with a 22 Cha, Selective and Quicken Channeling. He also has Augment Healing from 3.5. I house ruled that it added +2 HP per d6 of healing. At the moment he is at 4d6 so an extra 8 points of healing per channel. He usually keeps the party up with his channels and wands in between fights. It saves the rest his spells for combat.
However I'm of the opinion that a part should never expect another player to take certain spells. They can ask of course but to expect it crosses the line. You should play the character you want to play. If they want more healing then they need to roll a Life Oracle or invest in UMD and wands of healing.
I see what you people mean. That extra heal for 2 uses of channel can be great in emergencies where every little bit of healing counts.
I'm going to try to squeeze in selective and extra channeling, but its going to be tough. I may only be able to get Selective and only at 5 uses of channel with 14 charisma.
Int is the biggest problem for me, as my character's Background makes him the party's survival and perception expert. I'm stretch thin in the skills department. Taking Heart of the Wildness limits me even more.
I already wearing a headband of +2 Wis, Cha and Int and the phylactery is also a headband.
I'm curious as to why you went this route? Wisdom is such an important stat for a cleric it seems on the surface that you would be better off with just a +4 Wis item, especially as channeling doesn't seem to be a priority in your build.
I wouldn't take Selective Channeling just because your party demands it. Honestly, 17.5 (on average) healing at level 10 is almost nothing during battle anyway. You can get almost as much by casting mass cure light wounds and that spell's hardly optimal in most situations.
Thanks for pointing that out. I just didn't think so far into the game at that point of time, when I'm making my character.
And here is the sad part. Our party does not have anyone with Knowledge Nature. So with the +2 Headband of Mental Superiority, I'm covering for knowledge nature.
I know its not optimal, but my character's back-story supports the nature/wild/survival focus of my character.
When it comes to a Cleric you have two builds. You build for combat or for casting. If you go for Combat you probably are not channeling a lot. If you go more of caster build who stay out of combat casting from the rear channeling is good thing. Based on you stats and feat choice I'm not sure which way you are leaning to.
He was suppose to be a Battle-Cleric, but when my DM don't allow guided weapon, I changed to be a Support/Buffer Cleric with a focus on being super tough. Hence a +3 Mithral Fullpate, a +3 Mithral Heavy Shield and a +4 Cloak of Resistance.
The ideal is to buff and heal the party, while being VERY tough, therefore able to keep the party going.
He is like a Iron Anti-Cannon. The total opposite of a Glass-Cannon.
I DO AGREE that my wisdom is kinda low, but I can't see anyway to rise it higher without weakening my defenses. And a Support Cleric's first job is to survive, or he/she can't support the rest of the party.
IS there any other options I'm missing out? I maybe able scrape together about 4-5k more in gold by downgrading my character's +2 weapon to a +1.
...IS there any other options I'm missing out? I maybe able scrape together about 4-5k more in gold by downgrading my character's +2 weapon to a +1...
One thing you may do is talk to the rest of the party. A group I was one time, we all donated 10% of our money to buy the healer (it was a 3.5 favored soul) consumable healing items. For example; a wand of cure serious wounds. The combat types will tend to get more actual benefit from it so we felt it was ok to buy them. But many groups do not play that way.
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Selective Channel isn't that important. But again it depends on your build. IF your going to be doing channeling in combat, it helps, but I'd rather have Quicken Channel instead. This gets you better action economy, and there are other better ways to handle healing. Often times you can better spend your time preventing damage. Shield other is awesome, as is Paladin's Sacrifice - I so wish this was a cleric spell.
If you stay out of the front line and help out with shield other and other buffing spell they shouldn't give you any trouble for not having Selective Channel.
Thanks for the advice.
The problem I'm facing is that my fellow players believe that all "healing" clerics MUST have Selective Channeling and that Channeling is a must to heal in combat. But I'm not sure that's true...
One of my best Clerics instead of focusing on Selective Channeling, used the Healing Domain power (to increase Cure spells by 50%), took the feats, Dodge, Mobility, and Combat Expertise, and would run around the enemy to get to wounded characters, counting on the AC to keep him alive. Another reason to NOT get Heavy Armor. Mithral Chain is your friend! Also check out the spell Shield Other. Halves the damage your friend takes, you take the other half (which is easier to heal with Cure Lights.
Previous posters pointed out that at 10th level, the 5d6 averages out to about 17 points. Well a Cure Moderate Wounds with the Healing domain power would be (2d8+10)*1.5, which averages out to 28 points. Much better, especially when the damage is focused on just a few targets. Heck, at 10th level you get some fantastic returns for your Cure Spells:
Cure Light: 9 - 19
Cure Moderate: 18 - 39
Cure Serious: 19 - 51
Cure Critical: 21 - 63
Mass Cure Light: 16 - 27
You are correct, you need to build your character to survive. Only use that Channel if you HAVE to. Also, maybe see about Channeling Feats that allow you to do other things outside of healing.
Is Channeling a MUST? No. But the rest of your party needs to be shown that it is not.
... at 10th level, the 5d6 averages out to about 17 points. Well a Cure Moderate Wounds with the Healing domain power would be (2d8+10)*1.5, which averages out to 28 points. Much better, especially when the damage is focused on just a few targets...
I would also say channeling for healing is most effective after AoE spells or other distributed damage. The burning building, the hoard of goblin archers, cone of cold, etc... If everyone took damage it is a quick easy way to bring them all back up a bit.
Channeling pos energy isn't that great, the healing doesn't scale too well with damage, its probably better just to get them to take wands of cure x wounds to heal themselves after 5 ft step if need be during combat. Clerics have way more potential than just being healers, taking a loo at the great buffing/debuffing they can get. Stuff like bestow curse can get a potential problem off your hands. I once GM'd a group using an anti-cleric who spammed things like doom and bestow curse, it ended up almost being a TPK because they couldn't hit the guy or do any damage either.
